News-Record.com

If you were trying to keep trespassers off your land, would you bring out a tray of lemonade and cookies or a shotgun? "Mr. Terrorist, there's 20 planes that have been hijacked and you know where they're heading, one lump or two?". . . "Mr. Terrorist, there's a dirty bomb in a large eastern city and you know where it is, hot towel?" . . . torture can be your friend.

That really sounds reasonable. At least until you decide to look at the facts of the matter.

The fact is that torture is no more effective at getting reliable information from people than standard police work. Canada's investigations are just as timely and reliable as America's, yet they have tortured no one.

But what does torture really do? It turns its practitioners into monsters. It punishes people, whether they're guilty or not. And it shouts to the world that those who use it are barbarians, not in any way noble or good or even passably human.

I used to think that while America has its faults, it has its heart in the right place, and it has its priorities set the way they ought. Now, with open admissions of interrogation practices that are obviously torture, my views have changed. The fact that so many of my fellow citizens think it is justified and openly support it makes me feel sick. Torture can by your friend. But I want nothing to do with it.

I can almost here Jack saying "You can't handle the truth".

I could only see the use of torture if innocent lives were at stake and you knew the person you were torturing had information that could save those lives.

Are these the same Erics (the original writer and the poster)?

I think a look at the facts and a discussion of its use is not in itself objectional, as the writer suggests. To discuss something, to look at its faults and its possible uses, is wise. I'd rather someone discuss it and think about what they are doing, than to just jump in and start pulling hairs and stretching limbs.

In most cases, I'd agree with Eric on this one. But, there are cases where I might not.

In answer to the identity question, no, I'm not the writer of the original letter. Sorry for the confusion... I didn't notice the name issue.

Steve
why stop at torture?
Why not throw in a few concentration camps, it would create jobs, use the arabs we dont like for slave labor and when we are finished with them just gas and burn them.

Sorry but what happen to nation of morals and laws?
It is not naive or some leftwing liberal thinking to assume we cant solve these problems without coming the monsters we are seeking to stop or destroy.

WWJT?
Who Would Jesus Torture?

"Who would Jesus torture?"

A more meaningful question would be "Who tortured Jesus?"

If we stoop to using our enemies tactics then who is winning? This country was build on certain beliefs that some people are willing to throw away awfully quickly.

When we support torture or the death penalty, we sacrifice our humanity; we allow our enemies to dictate who we are and what we are willing to allow ourselves to become.

I almost think we should discontinue the day honoring Martin Luther King Jr. and establish a day honoring Malcolm X.

While whites may not have been fans of Malcolm X's "by any means necessary" philosophy during the Civil Rights Movement, a great many Americans, including our president, have admitted that "by any means necessary" is their preferred approach to the difficult problems facing our society today.

It would also be interesting to find out if those who think torture is part of the answer would support using it on members of home-grown hate groups.

Was torture seriously considered after the terrorism in Oklahoma City?

another bigmouth

Would Jesus torture those who tortured him?

Of this I am certain . . .

You guys don't feel the pain of any soldier, on any battlefield, at any place, at any time.

But . . . IF someone stole your wallet full of your hard earned MONEY, you'd let the police funnel cayenne pepper down their pp's until every dime was recovered.

Is it not the truth?

Steve
You have no ground to stand on in judging those who would torture our soldiers. Not only judge but you must defend their right to do so. Afterall they can make the same excuses for why the torture was justified and necessary just as easy as you do.

Hayes,

I've got a valve sticking on a 2.8 litre Ford, if I make the switch to Castrol, will my rocker arms freeze?

Steve, I have not made a comment in this thread until now. You guys have had it entirely to yourselves. But your comment about none of us knowing how any soldier on any battlefield feels, caused me to consider posting.

Facing death under any circumstances would cause any human to react in a human manner. Why would facing death on a battlefield be different than facing a lunatic with a loaded gun on our streets? Or the passengers on US Air flight 93 before successfully aborting an attack on the WH?

To me, the face of death is the same whether it be an enemy or foe. You are no less dead.

I am not, repeat, am not making light of our soldiers sacrifices. You know I am thankful for all they do. I just wondered why the human feeling and reaction would be different.

Yvonne,

I am speaking of self-obsession, self-concern, self-preciousness. I have observed the reactions of thousands of people. My own thoughts scare me. For lack of a better term, people suck. We cannot help it. It's the first law of nature. Those that hide it are wiser than those with no shame. What any one person will allow another to go through to satisfy their sense of entitlement is evil personified. We act one way, yet think another. We are so evil that we murdered God. Had it been your job to nail in the spikes, you would've done it while looking at the clock. (For Bigmouth to salivate and covet pointing out the literal error of "no ticking clocks back then" is proof of this darkness within us).

Anything that we observe happening to another is first processed as to how we figure into it. (She fell down, I didn't. He died, I am alive)

I think it is positive to point this out, it cuts to the core. In the law of cause and effect, it's best to know why instead of what. There may be some love in all of this. It is not what YOU think it is, it just is.

No ticking clocks back then? What are you talking about?

Steve, I hope you were using you metaphorically in " you would've done it while looking at the clock." While I agree some would have done that then (as Judus did) for money and would do it today for the same reason, I can honestly say there are some things I would not do for any amount of money. My integrity and my beliefs are things not for sale at any price.

Yes, some people do suck but there are a lot of people who have kind and giving spirits, who are selfless, sincere. These are the people who do things, not for the accolades, but because they are the right things to do.

Your thoughts are your own and there is nothing right or wrong about them. It is only when people take action on thoughts that are not pleasing to God or whatever higher power they believe in that thoughts become wrong. Just my opinion whether it is right or wrong.

It's the Divinity in us that makes us do good. Jesus, speaking of the end times, says that children will betray their parents and parents will betray their children. He says that the heart is wicked and deceitful above ALL things. He also says that there is a way that seemeth right, but it ends in destruction.

To call Him Lord is to deem unimportant everything that we and our friends and our families think of us. It is the willingness to be thought of as nothing, so that He may replace our base nature with His own. It is to be willing to be spat upon and humiliated for the sake of love. It is to believe that He honors the smallest amount of devotion to a greater good. The way there is not in accomplishments, or pride or intellect. But to simply come to Him knowing He knows the worst of us, yet loves us anyway. Any good that we think we have is but a candle to the sun in comparison. It is when you think you are worthless and unworthy of love that He comes to meet you at the point of your deepest pain. When everyone else turns away, He is there as the last and best friend.

Oh,

Never mind, Steve. Sorry, I'm a little slow today.

Wow, from torture to Jesus. In a court of law, torture can be proven wrong and ineffective, but Jesus can't be proven to be "god". Truth.

I am pretty honest when it comes to admitting I'm a liar.

Nothing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Nothing.

good point another bigmouth.

Brian,

Unless you want to be caught, don't unplug that freezer, those body parts will stink. I am worse than you! Jealous?

"Unless you want to be caught, don't unplug that freezer, those body parts will stink."

Ohhhh, so that's what Brian uses his Biology degree for...... ;)

I have a biology degree? Man, I need to find a better job then. lol.

Let me relate a story:

Israel has only had 1 Israeli plane hijacking. When it happened back in the 1970's, they did not negotiate with terrorists. they said, release the people...you have 5 minutes, or we are coming to kill you. The commandoes stormed in, and the terrorist began to open fire on the people in the plane. A few died, but the commandoes killed the terrorists.

It was sad and unfortunate...and to date, no terrorist has since hijacked an Israeli plane. They (the terrorists) got the message. That brave action by Israel has saved some untold number of lives since.

You deal with threats squarely and bravely. If Rusted believes that a "captured insurgent" (i.e., terrorist) needs to be interrogated in Pakistan or another country where human rights are at a lower standard than the US...Thank the Lord. I sleep better at night knowing that their evil is being extracted in the form of valuable intelligence and used to save lives!

David is absolutely right.

Unfortunately, many people are still unaware that Radical Islam has declared a Holy Jihad against America.

Rather than fretting about using methods that "makes us as bad as they are" we should consider the likelihood of defeating an enemy who imposes absolutely no limits on their actions, while you impose the strictest limitations on our own.

Let's be honest..... putting panties on the heads of prisoners (which some will call "torture") is really not in the same league with bounding and gagging a 56 year old woman and slicing her head off.

And... we all know that the same people who object to using harsh methods with prisoners are the very same people who whine "why didn't Bush prevent this terrorist attrocity?"

You can make it difficult to prevent terrorism, or you can let our military defend us.

You just can't have it both ways.

As the terrorists were already willing to die for their cause, I doubt seriously that the only reason the terrorists havent tried more Israeli hijackings is because of this one lone success.

Maybe it is more due to the extraordinarily securiy precautions the Israelis use to ensure the safety of the planes and passengers. So if we are to draw anything from why the Israelis are so successful maybe we should look at their safety measures.

Again the military option sounds great but most experts agree we cant win this alone with the military. Unless we are willing to go into every country where terrorists exist or more important if we are ABLE to go , as Iraq as proven some major shortcomings, then this logic is shortsided. For me just using the military turns this into a tic for tac operation that plays greatly into the hands of the terrorists. Afterall as been said often they are not a timeline. How long can we overstretch our troops?

By allowing and supporting torture by our troops we have only opened them, our troops, to be tortured by another army or country in a time of war. I doubt seriously if that was an american soldier with underwear over his head you would take such an "Oh well it not so bad" attitude.

And last since it has been shown that many of the people in the prisons were there for questionable reasons how do we not know that one of these men shown in the picture or being torured that his only crime was to have a name similar to someone we were looking for? Our intelligence has proven to be less than perfect.

what about the american citizens that have been arrested for helping the terrorist causes? should we rip up the constitution and torture them too?
what about our soldiers in future wars? if we torture now, we have no right to tell our next enemy that their torture of our soldiers is wrong.
torture is for barbarians and fools.

War is barbaric. War is ugly. War is killing and death and torture and maiming and cruelty. Remove torture and you've still got killing, death, maiming, and cruelty. Doesn't seem to make much difference to me.

so, another bigmouth, would it make any difference to add raping and pillaging to the list of govt sanctioned things that our soldiers could do in order to extract information from ACCUSED terrorists?

not really