News-Record.com

We were afraid of Communism in the '50s and were willing to sell our rights as Americans to purchase security. We are making a similar bargain now concerning terrorism. It was a lousy deal then and it's a lousy deal now.

Our freedom and rights as a people are incredibly precious comodities. Hundreds of thousands of people have died to procure them and shouldn't be bargained away so cheaply for elusive security. Russia is a totalitarian state as is Saudi Arabia. Not having freedom and rights didn't protect them from terrorism, quite the opposite, it inspired the terrorists.

There are risks in this world that are unavoidable and that having a free society may leave you more vulnerable in some ways. In other ways IMO having an America that believes in itself and its freedoms will innoculate us more than it exposes us. In any regard that's how I want myself and my children to live.

Every time you lunatic loser liberals keep opening your mouths you convert more independents to the conservatives so keep up the good work and you'll guarantee Hillary's defeat in '08

"There is a big lie out there about this war".
Hey, Stef,ever hear of 9/11?
"Putting aside healthcare and education"
Hey Stef, Do you expect Bush to pay your dr. bills and make sure you get to school on time?
"A war for proffit by our leaders". This one dosen't deserve comment. Stef, do you depend on the federal government for EVERYTHING?

Well Ms. McMullen at least you didn't make the usual liberal Bush=Hitler Godwin's law allusion, instead you compared him to Sen. Joseph McCarthy who is still wrongly portrayed by the left as a witch hunter. Guess what? McCarthy was right. In 1995 the Verona Project papers were declassified and disclosed that during the period in question there were over 500 Soviet Communist spies in the US, many of them employed in sensitive positions in government agencies such as the State Dept.

Ms. McMullen, it is NOT, as the satrical headline in the "The Onion" once screamed, " Revised patriot act Will Make It Illegal To Read The Patriot Act ". You obviously believe this because it is clear you haven't turned a page. One of the reasons the Act is so misunderstood is because of people like you and the MSM repeating myths about it. The majority of the public doesn't have the vaguest idea what is in the law . It is hardly an assult on civil liberties. It is your friend. I fear that your contempt and hate for President Bush are keeping you from realistically examining the provisions of the Act. For instance the first version incorporated legal measures which had been on the books for over 20 years and used against the Mafia and drug organizations. It was passed overwhelmingly by the House and Senate in response to 9/11. Today the terrorists are still out there trying to reinvent themselves.

In addition the Act also took down the "wall" which prohibited information sharing between law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Had it not been for this barrier, established by the Clinton administration, 9/11 might have been prevented. It also provided the FBI with better and common sense legal tools in areas where the previous law was inadequate or rendered obsolete by the nature of modern terrorists and technological advances.

Also please cite if you can any documented abuses of the Patriot Act. Congress put in place a requirement that a review be conducted once a year. The reports are available usdoj.com.

One final point , no library records have ever been sought under the Patriot Act.

I trust this had provided you with some new insights on this controversial law.

So, what do you suggest in place of President Bush's foreign and domestic policies toward Terrorism?....the rudderless Democrat non-policy of appeasement and accomodation?

Should we continue to allow those who would do us harm to use our laws and rights against us??

Karl Rove was right about liberals....he unmasked them and that is why they screamed so loudly.

As society changes, laws change, it's inevitable.
We have to do our best to prevent terrorist acts while still abiding by the constitutional safeguards. It's a balancing act, and our leaders have to constantly weigh the goal with the methods.
So far, they're doing a good job. There is no institutional "torture" regardless of what the liberal press would have you think. Our guards at Gitmo are being assaulted daily by radical Muslims who fling excrement, urine, and spit at them. In return, the detainees get 3 great meals, good shelter, and Korans handed to them with gloves by the very guards they assault.
I personally think the most unpatriotic "thing" today is those who try to destroy the current administration from within our shores while exercising and enjoying the freedoms that it provides.

I find the arguments and facts of Mr. Gregory to be without merit or substance.
The VENONA project listed 349 people, not all positively identified, as "contacts" available to the Soviet espionage system as early as 1942. Yes, a handful were highly placed. But they weren't all spies and they had mixed value to the Soviets.
If this information was leaked to McCarthy, it wasn't leaked very well, as the names didn't always match. By the time of McCarthy's most virulent rants, the danger was over. Many of the truly guilty went free, many other innocent lives were ruined permanently.
It's pretty reckless to declare, with this skimpy evidence, that McCarthy was "right". It is inconsistent of Mr. Gregory to demand that we carefully analyze USA PATRIOT (10 chapters totalling 150 sections) and yet treat the complex issue of McCarthyism so simply. Character assassination and guilt by association marked McCarthy's behaviour. The simple statement that he was right condones those behaviours. I don't agree with the original letter-writer's characterization, but this rebuttal is not effective.
Since USA PATRIOT prevents libraries from revealing that their records have been requested under the act, it would be necessary to break the law in order to assert that no library records have been so requested.
To assert that the law is a good one until someone shows that it has been abused is to shift the burden of proof where it does not belong.
The attempted Clinton bashing is simply ludicrous. To suggest that the intelligence communities would have overcome decades of insular information protection policies based on a single executive order from President Clinton is to discount portions of history that do not agree with your argument.
In summary, selective readings of history, exaggerated numbers and simplification of complex issues render Mr. Gregory's arguments puerile and effete.

I know in our current time of viewing liberals as the hand of the devil out to destroy our good christian nation and the republicans are the second coming of the Nazis we tend to rewrite history to prove our points. If that is how you want to see the other side then it is your life but lets not rewrite history.

To say the Verona report vindicates Mccarthy I would ask HOW?

What I remember reading is most of that report dealt with the years during the war and soon after. In my opinion that report vindicated what should have been common sense,there were spies in this time and following the war. But hey people NEWS FLASH here we had spies in Moscow. Welcome to the world of cold war politics.Anyone could have made that claim and been vindicated. But there is a difference in having actual names of peopel and proof and going on a fishing exhibition.

Another news flash there are most likely spies working for Putin and the chinese government in washington now.

But how does this vindicate a man who went around waving a "NAMELESS LIST" of people and destroyed countless numbers of those lives.

And before you blame the liberal press lets remember Mccarthy flourished during the time of these liberal attacks; his undoing came when he went after the military and p.oed Eisnhower and the conservative military.

If you want to vind�cate Mccarthy then in todays googling society I offer a challenge. Pull up a list of every person who were pulled in front of his committee and how many of those were actually proven guilty of any communist crimes. I would say match that with his list but since he never had one that would be hard to do. And if you find a large number then he is vindicated. But understand the clear difference in having a true list a finding people on that list and going on a fishing exibition hoping to catch someone.

If any of you live a neighborhood with alot a teenagers it is extremely likely you have a drug dealer on your block. But would that commen sense fact justified a fishing exhibition going through each household,turning their lives upside down and is this means vindicated if you happen to land that one person. In my world not!

And LOn thanks for that reminder about libraries adn the PA. I guess the fact libraries cant legally say something and I think can be criminally charged if they do just sort of falls under the radar when making that challenge about proving one case.

Stephanie, my child, as you read the knee-jerk responses to your letter of the wing-nuts, remind yourself of the slogans they hold so dear and it will help you to understand them:

"Ignorance is Strength"
"Freedom is Slavery"
"War is Peace"

My blessings to you all, especially the wing-nuts, who need it more than the others,
The Lord God

I see that the typical liberal approach of "Ignore it and it will go away." has risen to the top of the bowl again.

McCarty conducted a hearing, not a court, so finding guilty parties is impossible.

There was a big time problem within our government and in other areas of the country. McCarthy identified the problems and put them before the public. He was correct. He has been proved correct. The libs can't stand it. One area was with the Hollywood media people and heaven forbid, that they should be exposed for what they were and are today. One only needs look at Michael Moore to see the legacy of that era.

Like it or not McCarthy was correct and his work was a great service to our country.

"Like it or not McCarthy was correct and his work was a great service to our country."

Mac,

Joe was a cruel barely stable alcholic who ruined hundreds of lives. His passing was not morned and his "service" was not appreciated except by perhaps his soulmate Uncle Joe Stalin.

Mac
Coming from a moderate my question who is ignoring what here. I dont see any post trying to ignore anything but I do see a few trying to rewrite history. By the time he started on about his list it was already a given there was or had been communist in the government,ie the sciencetist working on the A-bomb. He said nothing new at the time. But Any fool in the 1950's could have stood up and wave a blank list with supposedly names on it and would be proven correct today. Heck I stand here today and claim we have chinese spies in our government today. I am not worried that I cant produce not a single name or proof thus lying because in about fifty years later my name will be VINDICATED with the future release of documents basically stating the obvious today.

Mccarthy saw a chance to take advantage of the fear of the time to rise to power and fame.

But if you feel he is so vindicated again provide a list of names he had proof of not from the fishing exhibition that took place.

But it just hit me. If these documents supposedly vindicate Mcarthy then to all those wimpy liberals who didnt buy into the wmd's arguement but have been attacked as unpatriotic because you choose not to support the war for this reason and as no weapons were found that means you have been VINDICATED. So go out and have a beer and enjoy the sunshine of vindication and drink one to your brother in arms Mccarthy. I know I will.

Cheers Joe,

I know you'd really like a cold one where you are.

Lon's argument is, well, not an argument.
He cites bogus opinions without facts that do not stand up to reasonable inspection.
He obviously knows little about that on which he pontificates so eloquently.
I suggest he read a bit more on the Clinton administration and their disastrous policies regarding intelligence gathering, law enforcement, and the decimation of the intelligence community.
Then he might realize the errors of 8 years of liberal control that brought us to 9/11.
In summary, selective readings of history, exaggerated numbers and simplification of complex issues render Lon's arguments puerile and effete.

Hayes:

"To say the Verona report vindicates Mccarthy I would ask HOW?"

Because McCarthy had stated that communist had infiltrated high-level government offices and the decoded cables prove that.
Verona project shows that Soviet infiltration of the Manhattan Project; proof that spies had reached the highest levels of the U. S. State and Treasury Departments;indications that more than three hundred Americans had supported the Soviet theft of American industrial, scientific, military and diplomatic secrets; and verification that the Communist party of the United States was deliberately and freely involved in Soviet espionage against America.

"What I remember reading is most of that report dealt with the years during the war and soon after."

Actually the Vernoa Project went from the late 1940s through the 1970s.

"In my opinion that report vindicated what should have been common sense,there were spies in this time and following the war."

Really so we should just assume that right now the second highest ranking of the US Treasury Dept is working for Al Qudia? (Harry White the second most powerful official in the U. S. Treasury Department, one of the most influential officials in the government, and part of the American delegation at the founding of the United Nations had informed the KGB about how American diplomatic policy could be thwarted.) Or that Karl Rove works for AL Quida also? (A trusted personal assistant to President Franklin Roosevelt, Lauchlin Currie, informed the KGB that the FBI had started an inquiry of one of the Soviets key American agents, Gregory Silvermaster. This warning allowed Silvermaster, who headed a highly productive espionage ring, to evade discovery and continue spying.)

"But there is a difference in having actual names of peopel and proof and going on a fishing exhibition."

He didn't go on a fishing exhibition. This is where you are wrong. "In the Wheeling speech, McCarthy referred to a letter that Secretary of State James Byrnes sent to Congressman Adolph Sabath in 1946. In that letter, Byrnes said that State Department security investigators had declared 284 persons unfit to hold jobs in the department because of communist connections and other reasons, but that only 79 had been discharged, leaving 205 still on the State Department's payroll. McCarthy told his Wheeling audience that while he did not have the names of the 205 mentioned in the Byrnes letter, he did have the names of 57 who were either members of or loyal to the Communist Party." On February 20, 1950, McCarthy gave the Senate information about 81 individuals - the 57 referred to at Wheeling and 24 others of less importance and about whom the evidence was less conclusive.

"Another news flash there are most likely spies working for Putin and the chinese government in washington now."

But once again do these spies hold high government offices? Are they in positions to influence government policy?

"But how does this vindicate a man who went around waving a "NAMELESS LIST" of people and destroyed countless numbers of those lives."

First off, your challenge back to you, came you name me one person who McCarthy destroyed? Also four times during McCarthy's February 20th speech, Senator Scott Lucas demanded that McCarthy make the 81 names public, but McCarthy refused to do so, responding that "if I were to give all the names involved, it might leave a wrong impression. If we should label one man a communist when he is not a communist, I think it would be too bad." What McCarthy did was to identify the individuals only by case numbers, not by their names.

"Pull up a list of every person who were pulled in front of his committee and how many of those were actually proven guilty of any communist crimes."

As someone already said, it was a hearing not a court but here is one (I will not put them all here too long, but here is an example) "Owen Lattimore was one of the principal architects of the State Department's pro-communist foreign policy in the Far East. Although the Tydings Committee cleared Lattimore of all charges, another Senate committee, the SISS, vindicated Joe McCarthy when it declared in 1952 that "Owen Lattimore was, from some time beginning in the 1930s, a conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."

This post is already way to long, and as I am trying write shorter post I will leave it as if. But Hayes if you want more proof I have a five page paper I did on the Verona Project. Which lays out exactly how bad the communist had infiltrated our government. That was McCarthy's point all along.

Marshall said: "Joe was a cruel barely stable alcholic who ruined hundreds of lives. His passing was not morned and his "service" was not appreciated except by perhaps his soulmate Uncle Joe Stalin."

First off, name me some of the hundreds of lives he ruined. Secondly him not being morned is technically not true: "Thousands of people viewed the body in Washington, and McCarthy was the first senator in 17 years to have funeral services in the Senate chamber. More than 30,000 Wisconsinites filed through St. Mary's Church in the senator's hometown of Appleton to pay their last respects to him. Three senators - George Malone, William Jenner, and Herman Welker - had flown from Washington to Appleton on the plane carrying McCarthy's casket."

Hayes said: "By the time he started on about his list it was already a given there was or had been communist in the government,ie the sciencetist working on the A-bomb."

Then why were they still being given positions of power? That was McCarthy's point. Why did we allow these people to continue to pass our secrets along to the enemy? Was it unreasonable of McCarthy to want government positions filled with persons who were loyal to America, instead of those with communist-tainted backgrounds? I know that I wouldn't Bin Laden's group working in our government. If Al Quida was working within our government wouldn't you want to know about it?

Herbert Biberman, Martin Popper, Robert W. Kenny, Albert Maltz, Lester Cole, Dalton Trumbo, John Howard Lawson, Alvah Bessie, Samuel Ornitz, Ring Lardner Jr., Edward Dmytryk, and Adrian Scott,Walter Bernstein, Robert M. La Follete, and Robert Rossen are the most notable.

I concede that 17,000 (it's amazing what trivia you can google) viewed his body, but my main point was McCarthy was not morned by the country at large and certainly not by me.

As far as I can determined nobody was ever proven to be a spy by the works of Joe. Some people were put in prison, some were denied work, some had their reputations destroyed, but I can't tell that any spies were found. You charge Owen Lattimore a Soviet instrument but that doesn't make him one. Sometimes you have to let the rule of law work & maybe Owen was a bad guy but if he was despite our governments best efforts we didn't have a case on him and like it or not that's the way our country works. If you don't the way our country does business go to Russia where the burden of proof is less.

Trish, just because you consider yourself a conservative (for whatever that means to you) don't feel you are obligated to defend every wingnut of the cause.

Take a deep breath and repeat "All Republicans are not good and all Democrats are not evil."

Repeat until the blacks & whites of your world develop a few shades of grey. Take this as far as your comfort level will allow.

Marshall said: "Trish, just because you consider yourself a conservative (for whatever that means to you) don't feel you are obligated to defend every wingnut of the cause."

Well Marshall I don't, however the myth of McCarthy is one that I will. You might what to read the book: " Venona Decoding Soviet Espionage In America" by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr before stating: "As far as I can determined nobody was ever proven to be a spy by the works of Joe. Some people were put in prison, some were denied work, some had their reputations destroyed, but I can't tell that any spies were found." What a lot of people are unaware of, yourself included as these people were spies, but the Justice Dept at the time would not allow the "proof" we had (as in the tapes). Again if you would like I will email you the paper I did and you can see for yourself how bad it really was. Yes it went beyond just giving away the atomic bomb to Stalin.

Lon,

If that is your real name, one thing the Verona papers did dispel was the long held liberal urban legend that the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss were innocent. They were found guilty and they were guilty. They promply received what was coming to them. And Marshall you know Julius and Ethel could really use a cold one where they are also.

Lon are you suggesting that the 98 US Senators and 357 Represtatives that voted for the Patriot Act didn'read it ? Silly boy. Mike Crouch asked the question you can't answer because the whining critics of the PA like Stephanie have no anti-terrorist policy except Neville Chamberlinism. The thrust of her letter was an ad hominem slur that Bush was McCarthy. I think that is blunted by several facts. Numerous hearings have been held on renewal of the Act since the original near unanimous bi-partisan approval. The Act requires the Attorney General to report to the House Judiciary Committe every 6 months. Since passage " The Committee's review of classified information related to FISA orders for tangible records such as business and library records, has not given rise to any concern that the the authority is being misused or abused." Anyone who has their records, including from a library, obtained under the Patriot Act is eventualy notified within a reasonable time and then they can legally tell the world . Lon are you suggesting that libraries be safe havens for terrorists as well as the unwashed homeless. I suspect so.

Thus far the defenders of Stephanie with their overheated rhetoric have displayed that their hatred of Bush trumps any concern they * might * have for fighting terrorism.

Marshall said: "Herbert Biberman, Martin Popper, Robert W. Kenny, Albert Maltz, Lester Cole, Dalton Trumbo, John Howard Lawson, Alvah Bessie, Samuel Ornitz, Ring Lardner Jr., Edward Dmytryk, and Adrian Scott,Walter Bernstein, Robert M. La Follete, and Robert Rossen are the most notable."

Just taking the first name from your list: Herbert Biberman and a couple of others I notice went before The Un-American Activities Committee, This was the house: (HUAC) was originally established in 1937 under the chairmanship of Martin Dies. The main objective of the HUAC was the investigation of un-American and subversive activities.

McCarthy was a Senator and he didn't make his speech until: February 1950 they went before the House (not Senate) in 1947. So try again. One person McCarthy runied.

I went home today pulled down my college diplomas which obviously came from liberal institutions thus I have been brainwashed and promptly burned them. God knows I dont want something hanging on my wall that comes from a liberal american hating university like UNCG.

Yvonne and all you other godless wimpy liberals your time has come so get it over it you lost.You had better realize everything is changed including our history. Under the new ground rules of the republican politically correct history there are certain guidelines you have better accept.

By the way I plan to cash in on this by writing a book based on these "true" revision of our history. So do the smart thing and get a pen name and write.
First one basic rule everything that has gone wrong in this country over the last 150 years is your fault. If you had left this country to the god fearing republicans our society and world would be perfect. I mean we would have peace with everybody standing together as one. Blacks as equal as whites; women as well. Wait minute that came about because of that liberal activist supreme court. Oh well not to worry I am sure I will find away around that. That means Truman if you hadnt been so spineless and listen to Patton there never would have been a soivet union and cold war. I forgot about Eisnhower here saying no to this but again we can sweep that fact under carpet and call it not important.And Truman you get the first blame for the decay of our military by removing Macarthur. And Marshall you were nothing but a social communists for turning our tax paying money over to those ingrateful europeans. I mean we are talking about major social programs here. And Wilson dont think we forgot about you and your attempt to bring us under the control of those communist in the league of nations.

And all you republicans demonized by those liberal press well we will put you back in your rightful place of noble honor. NIxon you didnt lie and hide something from the liberal press that was just the liberal press making lies about you. Yes your men for watergate were just making sure the plumbing was working correctly. Those missing minutes on the tape; yes your finger just slipped and nothing of importance was there.
And we will just blame that politicians interference in vietnam all on those clueless liberals. Naturally none of the republicans were counting body bags.

I will get to all the other points in history but in my last chapter I will lay the blame of our society on those godless europeans. Afterall if they had kept there socialist ideas there when they came here we wouldnt have to be putting up with you wimpy liberals.

And LOn if you would just do what Kim suggest then maybe you would be more intelligent.
Go back and read the PA,it does say libraries may not report in request so go back and readk it again it says libraries may not report any request. So obviously you read it wrong.

So wish me luck on my new book.

Hayes,

The good news is you don't have to provide any proof just make ideologically correct accusations.

There seems to be a ready market for your stuff. Just one piece of advice.

Just blame the French for everything. Blaming Europeans in general is too complicated and nuanced for your market.

Have a happy 4th folks: Cheers Joe where ever you reside.

Trish:

I confess to not knowing much about the Blacklists - but all my life I've been told they were mostly without basis and many careers (what does destroying a life mean?) were destroyed including Lucille Ball (until the studio went to bat for her) - here's another famous victim I found after very little loooking:

"No more than 10 percent would be able to return to careers in Hollywood. Even the biggest names were vulnerable. Charles Chaplin, the most famous face in the world .. had never been in the CP [but] was not allowed to reenter the United States following a trip to Europe ... until 1972, when an apologetic Hollywood honored him with a life achievement award during the Oscar ceremonies."

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/blacklist.html

What I like about this blog is it often sends me looking for new things to consider.

What I do not like about this blog is the Black and White paint it often uses. Looking up the veronica Papers, I read a little about Ann Coulter - whom I knew to be a far right mouthpiece - but I had no idea her rhetoric was so bigoted - one-sided and just plain ugly.

Marshall, you were right the first time. Lucifer has been complaining to me for years about Joe, as he has been pestered by him for years about holding hearings to see which of the demons are actually "soft on God" and fellow-travelers of Christians. He even provides the numbers, but they keep changing; sometimes it's 46 Christians or Christian-sympathizers, other times it's 12, and then the next time it's 12,354,213 (you know, you can fit just as many demons on the head of a pin as you can angels).

In fact, Lucifer has been trying to get me to take him up here, but when you add everything up, he just didn't make the cut.

He has plenty of like-minded people down there to keep him happy, however, and I suspect there will never be a shortage of new ones to join him.

At any rate, always good to hear what you people have to say.

Blessings on you all,
The Lord God

"The difference between a republican and a democrat is a republican sucks and a democrat blows."

- Lewis Black -

Let's all keep this in mind on this particular holiday.

Here's to repugnicans who can't see past their party line or their fellow repugnican's rear end.

Here's to democraps who look in their neighbor's backyard and can't see their own.

Here's to labiatarians who see no government, no control, no rules.....well.....they see nothing which is what most of us see in their platform.

Here's to cummunists who see the world as one big kindergarten sharing experience until they run out of toys and have to invade the neighboring sandbox.

Here's to f-ass-cists who see the world as an opportunity to give and give and give till it hurts only you and not the state.

Here's to all of us who are tired of these people and wonder if anyone ever doesn't pull the party lever in the booth. May God have pity on us for we are at the mercy of the fools above.

Have a Happy Independence Day and remember where this country would be without the opportunity to express opinion and civilly disagree with each other.

James said: " confess to not knowing much about the Blacklists"

First off the "Blacklist" had nothing at all whatsoever to do with McCarthy. McCarthy was a Senator. The Blacklist evolved from the House. Two different bodies of government. The House formed The Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) in 1937 under the chairmanship of Martin Dies (who was a democrat by the way). The main objective of the HUAC was the investigation of un-American and subversive activities.

A little known fact about the HUCA, it originally investigated both left-wing and right wing political groups. Some called for the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan to be interrogated by the HUAC.

Hayes your rant answered my quesitons how? First off I'm sorry that you think we are rewriting history. First off, history was re-written about this whole time peroid, the whole "McCarthism". Just as an example, even Marshall there thought McCarthy had something to do with the HUAC and blacklist. Not true. Sorry to burst your bubble, but McCarthy was a Senator. This is part of that history that was rewritten. McCarthy pulled people from hollywood, had them blacklisted etc. etc. Not true. So you might not mind people getting two different bodies of our government mixed up, but I do. The House and the Senate are two different things.

As a side note you said: "Wait minute that came about because of that liberal activist supreme court." Wrong again. One slavery came about because of a civil war with the southern states being defeated and agreeing to a Constitutional Amendment. Once again check your history. In 1857 the Supreme Court decision of Dred Scott v Sanford, the SU ruled that blacks were not citizens. It was the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment that outlawed slavery, the SU had nothing to do with it. As well as giving woman the right to vote (the Ninetenth Amendment). In both cases the Consitution was amended. The SU court,liberal or otherwise, had nothing to do with it.

Laugh, rant, deflect from MCCarthy and your statement that he "destroyed countless numbers of those lives". However the fact remains and the history is true McCarthy was a Senator and as such he was in the Senate, not the House.

Marshall said: "The good news is you don't have to provide any proof just make ideologically correct accusations."

Kind of like you did Marshall giving a list of names that had nothing to do with McCarthy. By the way found me one name from the "hundreds of lives" McCarthy ruined?

"Two different bodies of government."

Actually just one - the Congress. You know Better, Trish. OK - I'm nit picking - but you cannot cavalierly toss these off as not-connected.

It is true that:
- there were commies in the USA Gov' as there were also USA spies in the USSR.
- the USSR stole nuclear secrets (much of which we gained / stole from Germany.
- there was a lot of hysteria in those days, and many innocents were burned by that hysteria.
- we now face threats from commies in China, beating us at our own capitalist game.
- we now face threats from North Korea, and we let them off the hook 50 years ago due to lack-of-balls in USA politics.
- we now face very dangerous rogue nuclear threats.

James said: "Actually just one - the Congress"

Ha, true and as soon as I hit the post button I kicked myself. So everyone write this on their calander Trish is fessing up to making a mistake :) (sorry couldn't let that go by for the ppl who say I never admit to a mistake!)

As to the other, correct. My point being is that Hayes accusses us of rewriting history when in fact the majority of people accuse McCarthy of crimes he never committed. They get him mixed up with the HUAC. It is not rewritting history when pointing out the error.

Perhaps McCarthy was not singlehandedly or expressly guilty - but he is THE symbol - and we have to look at it both ways:

Assume all the hyperness about commies turned out to be a real threat to us - you KNOW he would be taking all the credit, brushing aside any trivial details like representative vs senator, etc.

In the same way, he must take all the "blame".

Similarly, Clinton was or was-not responsible for the economy on the 1990's, Reagan was or was-not responsible for overthrowing the USSA, and Bush is or is-not responsible for what-ever the middle east looks like in a few years.

All my opinions, of course.

... but Reagan / Bush 41 / Clinton / Bush 43 and the Congress are ALL responsible for the Corporate Slime that is America.

JOIN ME IN REBELLION !!!

I hope everyone knows that this forum is a means of arousal for Trish. Marshall, JDR, and all you others, don't argue with her. She'll only end up procreating and do we really need another mindless party-line republican running around?

Don't feed The Beast!!!!

Sorry for the interruption to this thread. It seems that my fan club just can't seem to stay away. They just love me so much!

James said: "Assume all the hyperness about commies turned out to be a real threat to us - you KNOW he would be taking all the credit, brushing aside any trivial details like representative vs senator, etc."

See James, that is the whole point they were a threat. After the Venona files were declassified, years later (I will have to check but I think it was the 80s or 90s) the press handled mostly by going "move along folks nothing to see here". I gave a couple of examples that in today's time would you want Al Quida to be in these government postions. The book I mentioned above is good to look at. These guys not only read the transcipts we decoded, they went to Russia and studied their declassified documents also.

Marshall,

You big weenie. Did Boone eat you alive or what ?
You should be banished from this forum. TKO !

Though McCarthy's specific charges were unsubstantiated, material unearthed in Russian archives after the fall of the Soviet Union has proven that his general charge (that Communist spies had infiltrated the federal government) was true.

The American Communist Party (CPUSA)was in the pay
of the Soviet Union. Communist spies included
Julius Rosenberg and Theodore Hall, who gave
nuclear secrets to the Soviets, Alger Hiss, who became Secretary General to the founding charter conference of the United Nations, and Harry Dexter
White, who was the founding head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

History continues to reveal that it is always the Democratic party that will fight for either the Communist or the IslamoFascist terrorist.

The only people who were afraid of McCarthy, were Communists. History has proven the theories of Marx and Stalin have been total failures. Those,
on the Left, who still have a soft spot for Uncle Joe, refuse to believe that Communism is dead.

Osama and his IslamoFascist bretheren are the chosen few who should be concerned with the "Patriot Act."

Those who are complaing the loudest, over the liberties that are being eroded by the "Patriot Act," are the Liberal politicians, media, and Hollywood.

Proving once again, the Liberal Democrats will continually stand up for the people who wish to bring harm to the United States.

The Lord God, Hey dude is that REALLY you?

Ms. McMullen is correct. The Republicans are showing the world how evil and cruel they really are.

Whether it is McCarthty with his "Un-American Activities Committe," or Bush, with his "Patriot Act," we need some honest Democrat answers to these problems.

If we were to follow in the footsteps of FDR,
we could put an end to this silly "Patriot Act."

FDR had the right answer when he issued,
Executive Order 9066. One hundred and ten thousand Japanese American who were seen as a threat to the security of the United States,
were placed in Prison Camps.

FDR set the precedent, Bush can issue Executive Order 9/11/2001, any and all Muslim's and Muslim
sympathizers are immediately placed in prison camps.

"Patriot Act" is immediately repealed.

END OF PROBLEM !

Listen to FDR, he has the answer, he's a DEMOCRAT!

Jennifer, yes, it is really me. I read some of the newspaper articles scattered about concerning the growth of "Blogsboro" and thought that the local paper's efforts in this direction were worth checking out, too.

It is encouraging to see these spirited discussions taking place, no matter how wrong-headed, erroneous and downright perverse some of the writers' opinions might be.

Certainly isn't anything I haven't heard before, however.

I've checked with Lucifer to make certain he has room to accomodate a few of the contributors to this 'blog should they check out early, and he has assured me that he can handle as many people as throw themselves at him, so I think these people will eventually get to the place where they evidently really want to go, although I must say that personally I don't see the attraction.

As always, my blessings on you all, even (or rather, *especially*) the nut-cases, as they are going to be *really* surprised and unhappy when they check out and see where they wind up. On the other hand, all their buddies will be there, too, so maybe it won't be so bad. Joe McCarthy, for one, has really come to like it down there, although he is driving Lucifer nuts.

Take care and call me if you need me,
The Lord God

Joey Mac is with me and doing penance for his crimes against his brothers. He is standing in a cesspool that is filled to his bottom lip. Every Saturday I jet-ski around him. That's the day he has to swallow what he spit out during his mortal days.

Trish.....I'll see you later baby!

Satan said: "Trish.....I'll see you later baby"

Sorry Satan, you need to see Yo Mama who is the President of my fan club. I'm sure she would want to collect your dues before I am allowed to send you an autographed photo. You can check with Not Your Mama on the contact information for Yo Mama.

"The only people who were afraid of McCarthy, were Communists."

Jennifer, that is such BS. The whole country was semi-panicked by the hyperbole of the day. There is productive concern and then there is destructive alarm.

There are two ways to motivate people (this is not my theory, but sound level 331 psych'): Fear and Desire. Fear is shortlived and destrutive. Desire can last a lifetime because it is nurturing.

Trish said: "See James, that is the whole point [the commies] they were a threat."

no ... the whole point is while the commies were a threat, the angst of the era solved Nothing.

Yea, there were commies - but this real global threat eventually self-imploded and McCarthy the alcoholic did absolutely zero that was productive.

".. The practical consequences of McCarthyism run most directly counter to the realistic needs of the time."

James,

Didn't your great uncle Nelson croak while doing the naked pretzel with somone other than his wife?
Guess he would like a cold one also Marshall. Can you arrange that Satan Incarnate?

"While the Venona secrets would seem to corroborate the worst and most paranoid fears of 1950s McCarthyism, the truth is arguably the reverse: because of information Venona uncovered, the US and most other Western governments did a thorough housecleaning in the years immediately after World War II. During those same years most of the leaders of the American labor movement also performed some housecleaning, and Communism lost its chic appeal in much of elite society. This was all BEFORE Joe McCarthy went off the deep end."

VERY HELPFUL to me, anyway:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9905/reviews/bacevich.html

Jason posits there is an "honest democrat". I suggest there is no intellectually honest position taken by the current liberal-dominated Democrat party. I challenge any liberal or Democrat (see, I know there can be a difference, albiet small these days) to find one.

Listen to their leadership..Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Biden...it is all about
* Bush-bashing or
* income redistribution or
* class warfare or
* the politics of fear "Bush is going to take seniors social security" or
* (and this is their "loftiest intellectual position") the "right to abortion"

The only outcome the Democrats seek is their return to power.....and God help us all if the current wacko/fringe-dominatged Democrat party ever returns to power.

WE DON'T SERVE COLD DRINKS HERE!!!!

Only very hot ones like coffee with no sweetener or cream. No lattes or cappucinos either. Warm beer is a must for Americans and Europeans get American beer. Tea is out all together. Now, are we clear on the beverage situation?

As to who is appearing nightly in my domain, let's just say there's a good cross-section of entertaiment for me. I have Dick Nixon and Ronny Reagan dancing with Stalin and Marx. I make sure the fun doesn't stop there. I especially enjoy when both the Roosevelts go up against Mao and Kruschev in a karaokee sing-off. My favorites are the love ballads.

Speaking of love, I do so love republicans. Yes, Satan loves republicans. They're the best minions I have here. Democrats are so impolite. They keep acting like they are self-sacrificing and they're really looking out for themselves. At least I know where I stand with republicans. They consistantly lie about everything, not just the morality issues.

So keep up the good work up there! Keep screwing up your country. I will see most of you real soon. Trish will be my lapdog. Yes steve, that means she's my....! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
HA!HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA!HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA!HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA!HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Satan,

Great post!

James said: "no ... the whole point is while the commies were a threat, the angst of the era solved Nothing."

"Yea, there were commies - but this real global threat eventually self-imploded and McCarthy the alcoholic did absolutely zero that was productive."

"because of information Venona uncovered, the US and most other Western governments did a thorough housecleaning in the years immediately after World War II."

Ok James I'll admit you have me confused here. First you say nothing was solved and McCarthy wasn't productive. Then you link a passage that said a housecleaning was done. So which is it?

Secondly if a thorough housecleaning was done, how come Venona continued until around 1970? Also if McCarthy didn't accomplish anything then how come McCarthy's probe resulted in the removal or further investigation by the FBI of 77 employees and a complete revamping of the security system at the Government Printing Office?

HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

What does it matter? They all end up with me anyway. McCarthy is down here licking my hoof and thinking it's an ice cream cone. At least I think that's what he thinks it is. You know his assistant had a little secret and maybe Joe does too.

HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

I said McCarthy wasn't productive. Most of the the housecleaning was done prior to McCarthy. McCarthy really became the loud mouth for policies already set in place by Truman.

AFAIK - Venona was "over" in 1945 when the Ruskies fixed the glitched in their code. Perhaps the program was like every other Gov' program - it goes on forever.

I for one am not sure McCarthy's probe resulted in the removal or further investigation by the FBI of 77 GUILTY employees. Lot's of folks just could not take the consaant badgering from this ass.

regardless - the original letter talked about living in an error of Fear - much trumped up by the Government, and that is a fact.

There are real things to fear, but they are being ignored or washed down because they are too expensive to fix - like the chlorine tanks that could each take out several major cities with a single well placed IED. Don't try to BS me on this - it is my line of work.

I'm not belittling the threat of Radical's, but I also do not have faith the government is really doing all the right things. Some yes, Many no.

I also know a lot of folks are getting filthy rich over this, and a lot of folks are approaching third-world lifestyles, while the congress debates flag-burning and the definiation of marraige.

I'm in a bitter mood tonight.