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While symbolic, the flag is only a piece of cloth. If you are going to expend energy getting upset about something why not at least make it a human issue? Like homelessness, lack of healthcare, hunger, war, infant death rates, lack of jobs, crime rates, drugs, etc, etc. It makes no kind of sense to me to worry about someone setting fire to a piece of cloth when such real issues exist.

This is just another distraction by the Republican majority who are throwing up yet another meaningless wedge issue to energize their base and distract us from the fact that they really aren't accomplishing much. Quick, without googling, name the last incident of domestic flag burning that you recall. It's incredibly rare. Issues like this, Terri Shiavo, activist judges, etc are all smoke but no fire.

While Congress debates these imaginary problems (meaning no disrespect to Ms. Shiavo but she wasn't Congress' problem, she was just a tool that was shamelessly used by certain politicians) important issues of the day are just being ignored. It's easier to throw up these wedge issues and debate them than to, say seriously take on the looming crisis in medicare or take a serious look at what's going on in Iraq.

We need more grownups in Washington in both parties.

I once was talking with a friend about this. He said that burning the flag is desecration, and traitorous. And he believed that anyone committing such a crime should be put to death.

I asked him since when is the flag "sacred"? That puzzled him and ended the conversaion.

Marshall, as a conservative I have to agree with you. You can kiss the wedge issues goodbye for the moment however. Appointing a new supreme court justice is going to turn Washington searing hot this summer. It's gonna get nasty, hang on.

"Appointing a new supreme court justice is going to turn Washington searing hot this summer. It's gonna get nasty, hang on."

Yeah Dan,

I suspect that Washington isn't going to have the collegial atmosphere, that we've come to expect, over the next few months.

Flag burning should be a protected right of free speech.

Those who do it should get an ass whuppin, but that's a different matter entirely.

Hugh, ditto.

With due respect Kitty, the right to dissent most specifically includes flag burning. This was decided by the courts in the 60s when such pastimes were popular. Prior to that legislation, it was illegal to use the symbol of the flag for anything.

If some enterprising civil libertarian wanted to make an issue of this, every paper plate, napkin and t-shirt with the stars and stripes on it should be taken off the market.

The first two are burned in the campfires all the time and shirts eventually become cleaning cloths. Not to mention, every person who leaves on of those little flags on their car until they turn to faded and frayed rags should be arrested.

Meanwhile, these GOP extremists have got to go. They are wasting our tax dollars on this inconsequential nonsense. I'm lucky to have Price as Rep here, he seems to be a pretty good guy but it looks to me (granted as a newcomer) that we need to get Dole and several other ideologues out of office.

The flag does not stand for what it once did. What the flag represents now is a bullying facist government turning to religious extemism to justify it actions. When our country begins respecting others again and works with others instead of bullying them and when our congress stops being so openly corrupt and when we can return to caring not only for those less fortunate in our own country but also in other countries and when we stop supporting corrupt regimes such as Saddam when we can 'use' him , then maybe people won't feel the frustration that motivates them to burn the flag. Want to burn the flag? Fine with me.

Someone kick you out of the wrong side of the bed this morning Tony?

Forgot to mention Tony, when you use terms like facist your argument instantly loses credibility. Don't believe me, ask Dick Durbin.

Tony, when was the last time you smiled?

Probably when the Soviet Union still existed Yard Dog or at least when Slick Willie was in office. Apologies up front for not spelling Fascist correctly.

They will zero in on your grammar errors because that is all they have.

Dan,

The word 'fascist' was coined by Benito Mussolini, who defined it in the Italian encylopedia: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

From Wikipedia, Fascism was typified by attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life. Many scholars consider "fascism" to be part of, or in coalition with, extreme right politics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

My point is that Bush, who is not a mainstream Republican, along with Frist and Delay, who are not mainstream republicans has hijacked the country. They are implementing a far-right agenda, which, by definition, is fascist.

Sorry if the connotations are no agreeable to your tastes, but the definition sure is right on target.

Can someone tell me why American Flags are even MADE in MEXICO?
That just goes beyond my realm. And, as most of you know, my realm goes pretty far out there.
Please enlighten me.
Thanks.

Dan, my point exactly. And, I smile everyday.

Jim said: "They are implementing a far-right agenda, which, by definition, is fascist."

Sorry, Jim but you left out one important part of the whole defintion of fascism. Here is what it also said from your above link: "There are clearly elements of both left and right ideology in the development of Fascism." Facism was formed out of socialism. Mussolini was the leader of the revolutionary left of the Socialist party and was editor of the Socialist daily Avanti. He left the socialist party because they didn't believe in war, that is how facism was formed. Just take a look at what fascism is: "First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole into which individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens. There are particular similarities with the Communist regime in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=16493
You see just like the left and democrat party they believe that people are too stupid to take care of themselves so the government needs to do it. And as we all know that would not be Republicans, as they are well known for pushing old people down the stairs and kicking the poor to the curb, sure not taking care of them.

"... into which individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit."

If you look at this statement without bushblinders, you will see how the American people (individuals) are being sacrificed for the state's (Bush's agendas) benefit. All the major cuts in the federal budget are at the expense of the socioecomonically disadvantaged American people. And as pointed out in another thread, Bush's policies benefit the wealthy. I guess he sees this "as to the state's benefit".

"This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens. There are particular similarities with the Communist regime in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin."

Pretty much describes our country under the Bush administration. The Patriot Act is a shining example of "unlimited by law" and "communist" in nature.

If this is the kind of "regime" one wants to support, that is one's choice. I prefer to pledge my alligence to a more fair and balance administration. But I guess I will have to wait til 2008 to get one.

"... into which individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit."

'All the major cuts in the federal budget are at the expense of the socioecomonically disadvantaged American people.'

There you go, you just proved the point. Socialism and communism believe that the people need to be taken care of (ie. state run health care, state run welfare, state run schools) now who's policy follows this line of thinking? You just stated that all the major cuts in the budget are at the expense of the socioecomonically disadvantage, (which would be welfare, Medicaid, Medicare etc.) all these cuts are government run programs. Do you see now? The state's benefit is because the people are now dependent on the state for everything.

Just as an example, take the African American race. Since the whole Johnson boondoggle of welfare was implemented the African race has stagnated in poverty. When immigrants come into this country for the most part they do real well why is the African race still stuck in poverty? Answer because they depend on the government to take care of them, this broke down the family unit. Immigrants depend on the family for support.

"Pretty much describes our country under the Bush administration. The Patriot Act is a shining example of "unlimited by law" and "communist" in nature."
Ok point out one example where the Patriot Act is "unlimited by law" and one example of where it falls under the communist ideals.

Well you do have one shining beacon of hope, as your house is being bulldozed at least your library records are going to be safe.

Marshall said: "Quick, without googling, name the last incident of domestic flag burning that you recall"

It was end of May or early June. A Muslim group in New York City, burned the flag with chats of "Allah Akbar," and then stating they had no loyalties to the US.

Jim: "Fascism was typified by attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life."

I think Trish already gave the appropriate history lesson to your statement Jim. I just might add that conservatism in this country are the opposite. One of our core beliefs is the individual's control over their destiny.

Unfortunately, many Republicans are no longer honoring the core beliefs of conservatism and are trying to be like Democrats and outspend their Democratic counterparts at taxpayers expense.

The left has become so unhinged and shrill that all they can do is launch attacks and use terms like Fascism, natzism, McCarthyism, gulag, etc. With Howard "Screaming" Dean as their spokesman, they offer no hope, no ideas, only incessant criticism. What's that old saying about when you are in a hole the best thing to do is stop digging?

As for the Patriot Act, I still have not heard from a single individual who has been affected by it. Marshall, Yvonne, Jim, anyone looking at your library books?

Dan,

While we're all researching the PA find any use against terrorism that it's been used for. We are giving the government powers and getting no benefit from it.

My understanding is that it has been largely used for other law enforcement purposes. That's just not right. That's just clasic bait & switch. Perhaps you trust the bunch that's in now to only spy on the citizens that need spying on, but what about the next group. Perhaps you might not want President H. Clinton with her own dosmestic spy organization with few impediments (shucks maybe you might). This is a power that needs to be nipped in the bud right now.

Your implication that it is rarely used is probably right (38 times as far as I can find out about half in non-terrorist cases) but the temporary nature of the bill is probably one reason why. If it is made permanent then I suspect the percent of terror cases that it is used in will drop as it becomes a standard tool.

Another tool for you big-government types to love.

I just wanted to point out that libertarians support flag burning, just like us liberals.
That is, I suppose, as long as the flag burner has clear title to the flag in question. Dog forbid that someone burn someone else's property, since we can't have any nasty aggression going on. That title should probably include a statement from whatever third world sweat shop manufactured the flag on how they furnished it to our Glorious Free Market, just as added support.
I just can't imagine why the Good Libertarians of North Carolina haven't jumped into this mature philosophical discussion with their views. If I'm wrong about this opinion, please do correct me. Don't hesitate now!

Dan -- I totally agree:

".... Republicans are no longer honoring the core beliefs of conservatism and are trying to be like Democrats and outspend their Democratic counterparts at taxpayers expense."

My issue with the Patriot Act is reflected in other posting - and I do find it interesting that it is so STRONGLY supported by aledged Conservatives that claim to want Government out of our lives .......

If the senate approves this, I'll be the first to burn one.
It's my 1st amendment RIGHT to do so.

The act of burning the flag of a country you despise or hate, is a true form of expression.

People from around the world burn the American flag, or sometimes they would burn a effigy of "Uncle Sam" or Bush.

We need to get with the program, let's start with,

the French flag, or burn an effigy of Chirac,

the German flag, or an effigy of Schroeder,

the North Korean flag, or an effigy of Kim (whatever his name is),

the Canadian Flag, or an effigy of Peter Jennings,

Let's show these Foreign Idiots, what the real American's think of their "Loser Countries."

Then we work on the "Losers in Hollwoood."

Tom,
How many movies have you seen in the past 12 months?

Just wondering because of your "Losers in Hollwood" (no y) comment.

It's funny, most of the civilized world thinks of us as the foreign idiots with Bush being the idiot leader.

Brian said: "most of the civilized world thinks of us as the foreign idiots"

Then why do they keep coming here?

Just as a side note, that didn't work to get Kerry elected, why do you think it would work now?

"How many movies have you seen in the past 12 months?"

Even though I am not Tom, I'll answer I saw one movie (Saturday night) on pay- preview and it was Team America. Aww to funny by half the F.A.G (film actors guild) is going to save us all! Haha

Brian said: "If the senate approves this, I'll be the first to burn one."

Just make sure before you light it up that the smoke police aren't lurking behind the corner. Speaking of which you had better check the local laws of where you are at, because in a lot of places you cannot have anything smoking, you know because of all that bad second-hand smoke. I'm sure you wouldn't want to pollute the children. I would really hate it if your First Amendment right was infringed because of a little smoking ordanice.

Brian,

To be honest, I rarely watch any T.V. at all. I travel quite a bit, so I don't waste a lot of time
watching Hollywood. If Hollywood depended on me for their remuneration, they would be living in houses with 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, 1800
sq.ft., in Toledo, Ohio.

If foreigners think that we are idiots, so what. Who cares what they think! Since you're from the "Blame America First," crowd, did you ever consider exactly why they (France, Germany, the Middle East, etc.) hate us?

Consider this:

Two hundred and twenty-nine years ago, The United States, declared our independence from England. About forty years later, Haiti, declared its independence from France.

What do you suppose the English or the French would have thought in 1776, if we told them, someday in about 200 years or so, we would be the world's only Super Power? They would have laughed in our faces.

Meanwhile, 200 years later, The United States is the only remaining Super Power. Whenever France or England go to war, we have to bail them out.
The once great Empires of the French, English, and Middle East are no more.

The United States is the leader in scientific and medical discoveries. The world's economy must first look to Wall Street. We were the first to put an astronaut on the Moon. Our economy is stronger than ever, our unemployment is 5.2%, the unemployment in France and Germany is double ours at 12% and rising. Social experiments of Communism and Socialism are miserable failures.
And, we are considered the idiots? You must be kidding.

Meanwhile, what has happened with Haiti? They declared their independence around the same time as the United States.

They are the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. Just like poor contries in Africa.

What do we have that they don't. Freedom, a Democracy, and a free market economy - Capitalism.

We made the right choice. What do they have they have to offer, that we made need?

As far as Hollywood is concerned, I really don't give a rats ass what Sean Penn, Jeanne Garafolo, Alec Baldwin, or Michael Moore, think about terrorism, the war, or anything else. What have given back to our country? Absolutely nothing.

Actors and performers like Danny Thomas, Bob Hope, always gave back. Danny Thomas built hospitals (St.Jude) for children and the poor, Bob Hope cared for, and entertained our service men and women. These entertainers cared about their country, and it shows, the entertainers of today, care only about themselves.

I don't blame America first. But as a citizen that has traveled to over 25 other countries while serving in our military, I have seen first hand how America is looked upon by foreign peoples.

The minute we pass an amendment limiting free speech, no matter how offensive you may deem it to be, the terrorists have won.