News-Record.com

Hmmmm... another goal in mind. Wonder what that could be$. Oops, ?

$$$$$$ ca ching!

Could you be more precise as to who is looking for money from whom? The City of Greensboro has already paid a settlement in a civil suit stemming from its (in)actions on 11/3/79. Please come out and say what you mean. Name names.

Oh, stop it, Ed.
You're just trying to polish a turd here over this T&R farce.
As much as you shill for the T&R, one wonders if YOU'RE getting money from them.

Watch your pocketbooks, folks, I hear the call for reparations in the distance!

You are right, Paulie. The appropriate response to vague charges in a public forum is not to ask for specifics, but to spread the smear to anyone who asks for clarification. My bad.

I went back and read the July 27th counterpoint. I found it interesting that the writer chose to connect the 1969 riots with the events of 1979. As far as 1979 is concerned both sides were at fault since both were armed for a fight. 1969 was an insurrection plain and simple. The counterpoint writer also made a derogatory comment about the "Jim Crow" housing known as Morningside housing project. The whole idea behind the housing projects was to give the black communities decent housing at considerable taxpayer expense instead of the worn down shacks that many were living in. Now I ride by these housing developments and see the same thing that the projects were originally designed to replace. The whole T&R deal is nothing more than the rascist group NAACP attempting to wring money for some pet project. Next they will have Jesse Jackson here trying to make himself some more money off of this whole phony business. Where oh where are the true leaders of tomorrow?

David,

I have reported on the Truth and Reconciliation process from the start and am unaware of it being any sort of project of the NAACP.

Could you elaborate on your statment that this is "nothing more than the rascist group NAACP attempting to wring money for some pet project"?

Ok,Ed you tell us what they want.Don't tell me they only want "the truth "to come out so they can heal communuty wounds and promote peace and harmony among everyone. When it is all said and done, if it turns out that the T&R gang file suit will you admit then that they are after one thing and one thing only: $$$$.

YD,

I think it would be helpful to identify the people you call the "T&R gang." Who is it that you expect to file suit, and against whom, and for what, as a result of this process?

Ed, I think you're wasting your breath. It's clear that some people don't want to be bothered with silly little things like facts. It's far easier to maintain their closed minds if they can stick to unsubstantiated inuendo.

For the those who do think they have some insight, the GTRC has made it clear that they are interested in hearing from anybody who has some information that may be relevant to the events of 11/3/79. The original letter writer may be such a person; my guess is that the commenters here are not.

I did not write the previous post agreeing with myself and linking back to Greensboro101, and I don't know who did.

I wrote the post to which you are referring, Ed. I don't know why it identified me as you.

Ed,please explain what the T&R commission hope to accomplish.

Yard dog, it would be polite to answer the question posed to you before demanding answers from others.

Ed,
Do you know for a fact that the T&R project or commission have no plans to seek reparations? The GTRC is based on the South African model, after all,
which is now in the reparations phase of its process. The South African commission is, of course, government sponsored and has the power to extract reparations, whereas GTRC has no such power. Still if GTRC made a finding that reparations should be paid it might have moral force. I've never seen this question addressed and it should be.

YD, I would sum it up as a history project that aims to produce an accurate document of what happened here and why. I will happily discuss that further, but first could you or anyone else please respond to the direct questions asked in response to vague allegations made by you and others that this is about the money: Who is it that you expect to file suit, and against whom, and for what, as a result of this process?

The TRC receives funding from private foundations to the tune of at least tens of thousands of dollars.

Does the commie/socilalist head of the TRC control the money after it's been donated? I've not seen any information to suggest it's different from that.

Ed, since you represent the NR on this matter why don't you ask the commie/socialist at the TRC to open the books to you so you can report back to us if we are wrong or not.

I'd be more than happy to eat my suspicisions. Are you game?

Hugh,

Who is the head of the TRC to whom you refer?

Also, I do not represent the N&R. I am neither a spokesman for and an employee of the paper; never have been either one. They do buy a column from me and publish it on their opinion page.

Jerry,

I have always understood this project to not include a reparations-seeking component. I have asked executive director Jill Williams to comment on that here. I do not see how, barring a finding of documented fact not revealed in the three trials that stemmed from the shootings, a credible suit could be based on the report. The case has been tried in criminal court, and a civil suit has been settled.

Whew!

Ed and Jerry, thank you for providing some reasonable and thoughtful posts on this subject. I knew this was an emotional subject, but some of our regular friends here have been more vitriolic than usual in this thread!

Everybody relax!

And take care,
Tony

I think this is a really useful conversation, and I'm glad we are having it in a public forum.

The questions about motive, leadership, money, etc are being asked all over Greensboro -- they should be asked -- and it's good to get them on the table.

There are misconceptions about this project, and there are also questions that remain to be answered.

Let's keep at it, let's see if we can put some answers out for everyone to see, right here in this thread, and then use that public record as a basis for future discussions. A little trash-talk never hurt anyone, anyway.

Ed, why are you playing stupid? You know who is the commie/socialist leader of the TRC.

The TRC, that is, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, includes a seven-person panel and a professional staff.

I've asked you a direct question that you continue to duck: who are you talking about as the head of the TRC?

Sorry for the long message below...I'm just getting out of a long string of meetings and the conversation has been lively, so I want to respond to as many concerns as possible.

Regarding reparations:

The Commission's final report will include, as Ed suggested, the Commission's findings about the context, causes, sequence and consequence of the events of November 3, 1979. It will also include recommendations to the community of Greensboro and its institutions about how we can work towards reconciliation and restorative justice in this situation.

Because we are in the information gathering phase of this work, neither the general final recommendations nor the specific idea of reparations have been a topic of discussion in Commission meetings.

The Commission's final recommendations will be based on its research findings as well as ideas generated in a public community dialogue scheduled for November. This dialogue will be an opportunity for community members to discuss what they heard in the public hearings as well as to generate recommendation ideas that will be carefully considered and evaluated by the Commission.

The TR Commissioners, like the Greensboro community, represent a diverse array of opinions and I can honestly tell you that I do not know any of their individual opinions on the topic of reparations. Given the early stage of our research, for the Commission to have an official
position on this issue would be premature.

What I can tell you for sure is that in my limited conversations with community members and even people directly involved with the tragedy of November 3, 1979, I have never heard anyone mention the idea of reparations. In fact, in response to a concern from a police officer who is considering giving a statement to the Commission, several widows of people who died on November 3, 1979, wrote and signed a document stating that they will not press civil charges against any member of the Greensboro Police Department, past or present, for any matter relating to the events of November 3, 1979.

Regarding finances:

Onto a different concern, our finances are administered by the Community Foundation of Greater Greensboro. All donations are made to and administered by this foundation, which is a 501(c)3 and should, therefore, "open its books" for anyone who asks.

Please don't hesitate to communicate with me if you have any further questions about the Commission. You can do this in any of the following ways:

At our blog: www.gtrc.blogspot.com
By giving a statement (that can include final report recommendation ideas): http://www.greensborotrc.org/make_a_statement.php
By calling the office: 336-275-6462

Ms. Williams, could you kindly define what "working towards reconciliation and restorative justice in this situation" means? It sounds like a fancy phrase for reparations.

With all due respect, I'm sure some people actually involved with this event may have the need for reconciliation and justice. But does Greensboro and it's institutions (what institutions in specific?)need reconciliation and justice because of this event? I for one do not and I would assume many others do not either.

Ed, I expect the surviving families of the cwp that died that day to file another lawsuit against the city of g'boro claiming their rights were not protected. I know you will say that has already been settled and maybe so, but I think that water hole is dry now,and they wish to refill their bank accounts. If I knew the names of the T&R commissioners I would name them ,but they are staying hid behind the name "T&R commission. Give me their names and I will show you who I think will sue for reparations.

A history project that aims to produce an accurate document? How many "accurate documents" do they need? This has been hashed and rehashed for nearly 30 years now. What about the letter writer? Never saw his version in the papers.
Also,whose idea was this TRC project anyway. If we could find out the name of the people whose idea this was,I suspect it would be very telling. But they are hiding behind this "commission". When it is all said and done if $ is not the motivation behind this, I will eat crow, if not will you?

YD, nobody is hiding. The Commission was introduced at a press conference, written about in the paper, and on stage at the two days of public hearings. In this very thread I provided links to the bios of the Commission and its staff, here they are again: Panel, staff.

You ask if another history project is needed. I guess that's subjective. Clearly some people see the potential for value. I do. You may not. You may also think that one more book about WWII, the American Revolution, one more Discovery Channel doc on the Nazis would be completely unneeded. But others may disagree.

Finally, if it all turns out to be a boondoggle, of course I'll report on that. I am covering this as a reporter and an opinion columnist. My opinions are based in large part on my reporting. I started out highly skeptical. I've watched and listened and seen things that have made me think this process could go somewhere useful. If it derails, I'll be writing about that, too.

Correction to above post :If I knew the names of the people BEHIND the trc commisioners I woild name the people I suspect will file a lawsuit

Ed,you have your oponion and I have mine. We'll see.

Dan,
Recognizing that your question is an important one, the Commissioners recently created their own explanation of reconciliation here: http://gtrc.blogspot.com/2005/07/what-is-reconciliation.html. (I'm sorry I never give short answers, but this stuff is complicated and messy.) I think this document addresses your concern that not everyone (particularly certain institutions) needs reconciliation around this issue.

YD,
I'm sorry you feel like the TR Commissioners have been hiding behind the title of the Commission. As Ed noted in a previous post, you can find the names and bios of each of the seven Commissioners here: http://www.greensborotrc.org/commissioners.php.

You can find information about the group that initiated this independent commission here: www.gtcrp.org.

YD, are you saying you doubt the independence of the panel and staff? If so, on what do you base that allegation?

Yes, we will all see what happens. That's a key thought to hold in mind -- all the nay-saying in the world won't keep this process from continuing. I'm hoping for a positve outcome, and seeing some signs that such is possible.

As I said, if I see problems developing, I'll report and opine on them. I've criticized some elements of this process along the way, for example, I think Nelson Johnson has kept himself too close too it for its own good, and I've written newspaper columns and blog posts saying just that. If I see a shakedown, or a whitewash, I'll write about it.

Will the people on this thread -- and on the City Council -- who have made up their minds in advance that this is a bad thing be able to admit there is value to it if such value is indeed shown in the end?

I am the author of the July 27 counterpoint piece which Donnie B. Stowe takes issue with. For the record, after submitting the piece to the N&R I was surprised to see that my words had been amended (by an editor, I guess). The words Donnie Stowe takes issue with are not mine. Here is the paragraph in question as I originally submitted it:

"I learned so much from the statement of Dr. Claude Barnes, A&T political scientist, telling of his boyhood growing up in one of Greensboro’s poor but proud Jim Crow housing projects. That neighborhood was Morningside, the very community where the tragic events of 1979 took place. It was moving to hear his recounting of the Dudley High School revolt of 1969, when he and other Dudley teenagers were stormed by armed national guardsman lobbing tear gas and firing bullets (one A&T female student was killed). As Professor Barnes sees it, the events of 1969 and 1979 came as no surprise to many in the black community."

Isn't it interesting that the same posters who are upset that people may have made up their minds about Karl Rove's treasonous behavior are now telling us that their minds are made up about the TRC.

How dare we talk about the past, and try to heal some wounds.

Unless the wound is a conservative wound.

Reparations have never been a part of the T&R process in Greensboro in the over three years that I have been on the Local Task Force for the GTCRP. Simply put the process has no intention of sending people to jail, creating a new civil trial or getting money from anyone. I would personally oppose any such attempt by anyone. However, community conversations, like on this thread, are all an important part of the community dialogue and the blogs are providing a wonderful format for the broader community discussion.

After the first round of public hearing in July, I am more convinced than ever of the wisdom in the comments made by Elizabeth Wheaton in her 1986 book CODENAME: GREENKIL - "The full story of the Greensboro killings may never be revealed, not because there is a lack of information but because there are a multiplicity of perspectives from which we can view the available facts. It is as though we were looking through a kaleidoscope and events fell into one pattern when viewed through the CWP's perspective, another through that of the Klan and Nazis, and yet another through the police and federal agents. Each pattern has its own logic, but when they are superimposed the image becomes a jumble of contradictions and conflict." A deeper understanding of Nov. 3rd is showing us that we have no one group or person to blame.

Also, in the recent issue of "North Carolina Humanities" they discuss that Gaston County is looking into it's difficult history of the Loray Mill strike in 1929 in Gastonia. The look into the horrors of that deadly strike is being done by Preservation North Carolina, Gaston County Schools, Gaston County Library and the Gaston County Museum of Art and History. They observed in a recent conference: "For 74 years Gaston County had engaged in a collective repression of the Loray Mill strike. It remains a taboo topic in many circles... This history defines our community in the eyes of visitors and outsiders. As such, it is uniquely ours -- something we should understand, and, if possible embrace. For it is only by initiating a discourse about the strike that we can hope to end the lingering silences, increase understanding about the strike, and lean from a troubled moment in our history."

The most amazing NC depression era strike occurred in High Point in July 1932 that involved 1,600 textile workers. The following day 15,000 employees closed more than 100 factories in Kernersville, Jamestown, Lexington and Thomasville. My father was involved in this 1932 strike but you better dig hard to find any facts because its not included at any of the local history museums. This 1932 strike was perhaps the largest wildcat strike, organized by only local workers, who had never heard the name Karl Marx and would have been repulsed by the activities of Lenin , Mao or the CWP.

"How dare we talk about the past and try to heal some wounds." I thought they were pretty well healed over. All this is doing is stiring the race pot. And what brings Karl Rove in on this,Jim? Talk about the past all you want. What is the point? What is the point in any of this "investagation"? It is to keep the fires of racial discontent stoked in hopes of swaying a future jury to award large sums of cash,IMO.
Again,this horse has been whipped to death.
"Will the people of this thread admit that value has been shown if it has been shown"? Yes indeed,Mr.Cone. But if the outcome proves to be just another rerun of previous shows will the TRC and you own up to what it was,a waste of time and money meant to sway public oponion? And no, I can't produce the horse that has been whipped to death.

Keep this going guys, from my view you are actually making the case for going through the T&R process.

As for me, I wasn't in Greensboro in 1979 and have only started to really pay attention to the subject during the past couple of years and I find the whole thing to be quite confusing and fascinating.

Being a mid-80's transplant, I just can't see the harm in the T&R process - as in 'what's the downside'?... I can think of none (that is unless yard dog's reparation prediction comes to fruition, but I don't see that as happening and if it does, I'll be yelling about it, too).

From my perspective there is no harm in seeing this thing through, especially if EVERYONE tells their side of the story and if fewer people jeer from the sidelines convinced of a predetermined outcome.

I'm expecting the best out of the Commission, not the worst.

Mr. Steve Flynn, if your original letter was amended, then your original letter was doubly wrong. Not your fault, but the fault of Claude Barnes, who lied to you.
The A&T student killed was not on campus, and was not a female. It was a man named Willie Grimes, and he was killed off-campus. The autopsy showed he was not killed by police or National Guard bullets.
The riots on Dudley campus were handled by the Greensboro police, not the National Guard. No shots were fired at Dudley, and no students killed there. Only tear gas was used to break up the unlawful disruption at Dudley. The Dudley riots only lasted 2 days (as I recall) and the NG was not mobilized until later after A&T students attacked white motorists near the campus and sparked rioting that lasted a few days.
Mr. Barnes probably "forgot" to mention the ambush of Greensboro PD officers near the campus, resulting in 5 or 6 officers being shot, one seriously enough to warrant medical retirement.
Hearing that Claude Barnes told some outrageous lies during the T&R process only reinforces my feeling that no one on the T&R is looking for truth, only advancing another agenda.
The T&R is a waste of time and money.
Mr. Cone, the whole Klan/CWP thing was investigated as fully as anything that ever happened in this city, by city, state, and federal agencies. The truth has always been there, it was there in 1979-1980, and the records are there today. How can you expect people to recall things as well or better 26 years later as they did at the time they occurred? They can't, this is not about the truth.

Indeed,Mr.Barne$ "forgot" to mention the ambu$h of the police. In other word$, Mr.Barne$ is lying in order to $way a future jury. Anyone who believe$ this proce$$ is about bringing out the truth is living in fanta$y land. Thi$ is a plan to hijack more cash out of the public coffer$,nothing more.

Mr Cone,
You stated that this is not taxpayers money.
Yet another post said it came from a 503 c. Is this not directly are indirectly taxpayers money? My next question is why do it if not for the money? And of course if you are so much into truth, why are you not writing about Basnight and Black and our disappering TAX DOLLARS? Sure as hell am not reading this in the LIBERAL PAPERS. I guess we only need part of the truth?

Mr. Cone, it's apparent you have crossed the journalistic line on this story. You are no longer a non-biased reporter on this issue.
You've become personally involved in shilling for the T&R, and you've become a proponent, not a fact-finder.
Is this the ethics of the N&R: Find a liberal cause and fight for it, no matter that's it's politically motivated and you're not an objective observer?

Jaycee, I don't agree that Ed's crossed any line. In fact, he's been the sole voice of accuracy (and the demand for same) in this thread. Although Ed advised me to not feed the trolls in another situation, I think we can both agree that when an issue is important, getting accurate information shared in a public space is important. He demands facts, YD dances to the side.

YD keeps making accusations but can't or won't back them up. Ed called him on every one and still doesn't have the facts he's asked for from YD. I think YD is better at lobbing self-created grenades of FUD and like the FUD masters, moves the subject by making his accusations seem "real."

(Note: FUD = fear, uncertainty, and doubt, used well by Microsoft regarding Open Source software. Google "The Halloween Papers").

FUD is the new media's yellow journalism.

Ed, the TRC is needed, even though it's not high on my priority list. Stay the course.

Doug, I don't recall making any statement about public money, but in fact you are correct that this is funded with largely with 501c3 money. You seem to be saying that such foundation money belongs to the public; it does not.

JayCee, I am an opinion columnist. My column runs on the opinion page. It's the page with the word "opinion" printed at the top. As such I am not supposed to be an objective news reporter, although I do try to base my opinion on reported facts. The attempts at objective news reporting are made by N&R news reporters in the news sections. Opinion columns, which express opinions, run in the opinion section.

In my opinion, based on my reporting, this project has potential. If I see it going in what I perceive as a negative direction, I'll report and opine on that, too.

It is clear to me from afar, that this is a liberal/conservative argument and nothing will change that fact.

Does it have any impact on the average citizen in Greensboro? Are people really interested? I would submit that the answer is "no" to both questions.

No one is interested in this argument between the communists and the KKK. We see no need to feel their pain or to understand this sorry bit of
history.

Morningside Homes was and still is a government attempt to help the unfortunate among us but there is always the few that spoil the effort.

I for one don't want my tax dollars spent on
people who believe in communism. The average Black Citizen holds the same view.

There are just a few "liberal elites" who want this on a front burner but the vast majority of average Greensboro Citizens could care less.

To those of you who want to wallow around in a
pig pen, have at it, but bear in mind that there is only a few who want to get in there with you.

Even the City Council wants no part of it. It serves no purpose except to remind people of a sad chapter that is better off... forgotten!

The motives of those behind the scenes are at best... suspect and at the worst...just another case of the left whinning that they can't get anyone to pay attention to them!

Conservatives...just smile...you have already won the argument. Excuse me, "debate"!

Sue,I do see what you mean by FUD. F-fear that this "truth seeking" commission is going to dig into my pocketbook even deeper than the last time. U-uncertain of how much it will cost. D-doubt that anyone will speak up and say what they really are all about, a bunch of money grubbing whinners that insist on playing the race card over and over.

Mr. Cone, my apologies.
I failed to understand your position with the newspaper. As I'm a cheap bastard, I don't read the print version of the paper, only the online stories.
As Emily Latella used to say, "Never mind."

However, my opinion is that your opinions suck.

Mr Ed,
A 503c is a TAX FREE group that gets its money from the goverment ( thats direct from the taxpayers) the other way is from people are companies that take a tax deduction from their taxes ( thats indirect) so Joe TAXPAYER pays either way. I am convinced that this is a $$$$$ thing because you have dodged the reason many times???? And of course I read your liberal articles. Nothing wrong with being a liberal, in fact I married one of 43 years ago.

Doug, a 501c3 is a non-profit, tax-exempt group, not a government-funded one. Foundations like the ones that are funding this project got their money from private individuals (eg, the Reynolds family), not the government. You are incorrect in stating this project is funded with public money.

I'm not dodging anything. I have seen no evidence that this project is about money. Barring some unexpected finding of fact, I don't see how or why money would be involved, and I would not support a suit based on anything we now know.

Allen,

Steve Flynn raises a matter that you need to address. He says that the words Donnie Stowe disputes in the counterpoint above are not the words that he wrote. Is this true?

I can understand that somebody might want to correct what Steve says he wrote because it is patently false. But if what he says is true, and somebody at the paper changed what he wrote, that person changed it to something that was equally false.

One obvious question that arises from this is whether readers can trust that what they are reading actually was written by the person whose name it bears.

Is it a violation of the newspaper’s ethical standards to change a passage to make it say something completely different without notifying the writer or making the reader aware of the change?

Readers deserve an explanation.

Mr Ed
The Caswell Foundation is 503c Group the taxpayers of Caswell County have forked over $57,000 of TAXPAYERS money to this group. Bill Faison is in Raleigh getting $950,000 of taxpayers money. I been fighting this thief taxpayers money for 4 years. So it can be public money. I have never said this was direct taxpayers money, because I do not know. Of course the only group that gets newspaper coverage is the people stealing the taxpayers money. Like Allen Johnson said today, its for the publics good. Doug says BS most people would rather have the money in their pocket. Allen was not talking about this scam, he was talking about a town project.

Doug, where did you get the info that the Caswell Foundation donated to the TRC? I have not heard that, and it is not listed in the funding sources on their web page. Thnx Ed

Mr Ed
where did I say they gave money TRC? I was using this as a example!! Did you not state that a 503c was not public fund? I was giving you another example! If the NR had printed any of the letters to the editor on this, you understand. However thats another story, never to be seen in a liberal paper.
Doug

Doug, I misunderstood you. When you said public money was given to "this group" in a thread about the TRC, I thought you meant the group in question was the TRC.

Your original statement (that 501c3s get their money from the government) is overly broad to the point of being incorrect. And I don't see how a definition of tax-exempt foundations is a liberal/conservative mattter.

So, back to the conversation at hand: public money is not going to the TRC.

Is anybody going to answer Jerry's question before this thread ages into oblivion?

I second Roch101's question and Jerry's.

To Jerry's questions about the changes to Steve Flynn's Counterpoint, I am back from vacation and checking on that now.
I'll be back with you soon.