News-Record.com

"A few do not believe in God. That is their right. But rather than remove my right to pray in public, to wish a co-worker Merry Christmas, to pledge my allegiance to my country -- the country within which I choose to live -- children are taught that because some do not believe in God, no one can even mention him."

This lady says she believes in God, and I bet she's a Christian. Which makes me wonder why she chooses to tell such lies. Maybe she believes them to be true. Yet in the end, they are not.

No one has ever asked that anyone be forbidden to pray in public. There are no lawsuits barring anyone from telling anyone else "Merry Christmas." No one has said that anyone shouldn't pledge allegiance to anything. Certainly, no one has ever said that no one can evven mention God.

It's very tiresome to hear this BS repeated every time we turn around.

Nemo, was your post meant to be sarcasm? Or are you uninformed?

yeah. right. like people pushing prayer in public places are tolerant....unless your different from them. the bible says lock yourself in your closet to pray. do that, letterwriter.

Hugh,

Nemo is right: the author of this letter (or anyone else) is perfectly free to pray in public. I'm pretty sure there are no laws against wishing folks a Merry Christmas. And all of us are free to pledge allegience to the United States of America. If you think we're uninformed, please help us out, and show us the laws or rulings that say we are not free to do those things.

No one is saying you can't pray in public or pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, but forcing my daughter to do so is wrong and that's why the laws are the way they are.

I don't want anyone corrupting my daughter with tales of virgin births, blind faith and stoning of rape victims. I'm trying to teach her to live a highly moral life, so the farther I can keep her away from the xstian fanatics, the better.

semantics aside, the letter writer was asking a simple question. can we be tolerant ? personally i don't need the govmn't permission to pray , pledge or sneeze. i do it when i want.

hey b.harper,
if your daughter start asking legitimate questions about God will you permit her to follow her heart and seek answers for herself or will you prevent her from froming her own opinion ? and i understand that until a certain age ( tbd by maturity level i suppose ) she is subject to your rules.

No law suits or at least none that made news but Corporations, business telling employees that they must wish Happy Holidays instead of Merry CHRISTmas, because of a few who object to anything of God, Christ, Jesus. No Merry CHRISTmas parties in school, only Winter Holiday parties, gosh what are they afraid of, that Santa might be God in disguise made up by a bunch of religious zealots,no only because a few parents don't like the words God, Christ, Jesus mentioned. Lets throw in the TV and Newspapers also in this mess while we are at it. I beleive that most decided to delete MERRY CHRISTmas because it was not the politically correct words to use anymore because a few people decided that they objected to the use of Christ, God, Jesus under any circumstances even in a customary greeting for hundreds of years. No, you can pray in school, but don't let the teacher see you with your head bowed in prayer unless you wish to be ostersized by the teacher. God help the merchant that puts up any kind of nativity display on HIS property, for there will be those who hate the use of the name of God, Jesus, Christ in any form, the pickets lines will soon form outside and deprive this merchant with his right to make a living, ie his pursuit of happiness.
Oh yea, you can say the pledge in school as long as some parent who dispises the name of God does not object and then gets some judge to make "law" actually, a ruling that people often mistake for a law. No law was formed unless the legislature passed it and the executive branch signed it. But forget that, the judge is the law or above the law and a majority of one can overrule an entire state and in some cases a country.
No, there are no laws, no lawsuits pending, (perhaps waiting in the wings)against any of the things the writer mentioned , but then there is always the threat that abounds and have people run scared in ignorance of the law.
And no the flag is not a rag it is a symbol of this great country that I fought and bled to protect, even the the rights of those who are wrong.

Potato, Christian symbols in public places are under attack by the likes of the ACLU.

First it was prayer in school, then attempted at school football games.

The founding history of California has to do with Spanish missions and San Diego, or LA county recently was sued to remove the cross from their county seal.

There was recently a highly publicized lawsuit against the pledge of allegiance.

All these things are incremental steps toward a larger goal of outright banning of religious/fundamentally patriotic expressions in public, period.

Mr. Produce,

"business telling employees that they must wish Happy Holidays instead of Merry CHRISTmas"

Can you provide some examples of specific businesses where this has happened, because I haven't heard of any.

" Lets throw in the TV and Newspapers also in this mess while we are at it. I beleive that most decided to delete MERRY CHRISTmas because it was not the politically correct words to use anymore"

Assuming this is true, this is a private entity deciding to do this, and in no way infringes upon anyone's personal rights. While you do indeed have the right to wish others a Merry Christmas, I'm pretty sure it's unreasonable to expect that you have the right to be wished a Merry Christmas by your TV or newspaper whether or not they wish to do so.

"No, you can pray in school, but don't let the teacher see you with your head bowed in prayer unless you wish to be ostersized by the teacher."

Again, please provide some specific examples of this systematic persecution you seem to think is going on. While it wouldn't surprise me that one or two misguided teachers have done this, I highly doubt that there are many teachers ostracizing students for bowing their heads in prayer. When I was in school we would have a moment of silence and I would pray regularly during that time, and I was never ostracized. In fact, unless you make a big showy spectacle of yourself when you pray, I'm not sure how a teacher would even know that that is what you were doing.

"God help the merchant that puts up any kind of nativity display on HIS property, for there will be those who hate the use of the name of God, Jesus, Christ in any form, the pickets lines will soon form outside and deprive this merchant with his right to make a living, ie his pursuit of happiness."

Where do you see this happening? Again, please provide some sources for these claims. On the contrary, I see busineses like Carter Brothers Barbecue and Chik-fil-a who are very up front about their faith, and they certainly seem to be suffering no ill effects.

"Oh yea, you can say the pledge in school as long as some parent who dispises the name of God does not object and then gets some judge to make "law" actually, a ruling that people often mistake for a law."

No ruling has been made saying that a student can't say the pledge in school. If you claim otherwise, please refer me to this ruling.

Thanks for addressing my post, mr. produce, and I'll look forward to seeing the sources for all of your claims.

hugh,

I've posted this here before, but please look at this link, and read through the comments on the page:

http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_vi.html

The ACLU is not the boogey man you think it is, and has been involved in *defending* the rights of Christians on many occasions. You are not going to lose your right to say a prayer in public or to wish someone a Merry Christmas.

Here's my challenge to all of you. Place a symbol of your religion in your office where all can see. Frame a portrait of the United States Flag and Pledge of Allegiance in your office or place of work where all can see. If you are a truckdriver, wear a pin, or tatoo it on your arm.

Now, let them try to stop everybody who does so.

First, it is your right. Second, if you exercise it, it might be respected more.

good idea truth......

Stew,I don't believe I was addressing your post but since you think I did, Will these be enough to answer your questions?
Milford-WTNH, Dec. 19, 2004 6:07 PM) _ A show of faith in Milford is creating controversy. A small nativity scene on the town green is under attack by a group of atheists who say it's unconstitutional. During a rally today they demanded it be removed.

BENTON, La. - In a settlement agreement negotiated by attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund, the American Civil Liberties Union will no longer pursue its legal attack upon the Bossier Parish School District. ADF attorneys represent the district. One of the district's schools displayed a nativity scene during the Christmas season of 2003 and has allowed other forms of religious expression on campus. This prompted the ACLU to file suit against the district and school officials. "The ACLU's case was going nowhere fast," said Mike Johnson, an ADF attorney based in Shreveport. "Stockwell Place Elementary School's display of a creche...

The North County Times [San Diego] ^ | Saturday, January 1, 2005 | Not Indicated
ESCONDIDO, CA ---- The Vollmar family's nativity scene was destroyed by vandals on Wednesday night at the family's home on West 11th Street, Jan Vollmar said. The family puts up the scene every year as part of a larger Christmas display in their front yard, Vollmar said. The destruction of the scene began on Christmas night when one of three wise men was smashed in the street. "After the first incident on Christmas, we had neighbors approach us and say that they hoped we wouldn't let the destruction make us take down our display," Vollmar said on Friday. "But two...

Oklahoma town went to the ballot box to protest attempts to strip Christmas of its true meaning. A community in Oklahoma has found a unique way to protest the expulsion of Christian symbols from an elementary school's Christmas program. Citizens in Mustang, Okla., hit the school district in the pocketbook—denying a bond measure at the ballot box. The school isn't taking it well. For 22 years, the Lakehoma Elementary School Christmas pageant featured a nativity scene. This year, even though no one complained, Superintendent Karl Springer decided to...

Federated Department Stores – you know, of Macy’s and Miracle on 34th Street fame – has informally, and, supposedly without a specified edict, instructed all of its stores to, if they desire, remove all direct references to the word, “Christmas.” Dayton Hudson Corporation --Target, to be more precise -- evicted all of the Salvation Army workers from in front of its stores. The city of Denver eliminated all references to Christmas -- as well as a float -- from its annual Parade of Lights. Schools and local government buildings in various parts of the country have banned nativity scenes, and any specific Christmas references at their holiday gatherings and concerts. Pa rum pum pum pum.
When the senior class at Weed High School was told it could not paint a Nativity scene on a window,
student body president Jessica Hofer knew from her senior project research that the students had a constitutional right to do so and with her help they did. By school tradition, classes decorate the school for seasonal holidays with the work judged, earning the class "spirit points." The designs are approved by faculty advisors before the actual work begins. This year senior class president Becky James and her classmates designed a simple Nativity set painting for a small window...

Sun-Sentinel ^

The group of about 35 people accused the shopping centers and their anchor stores, Macy's and Burdines, of exhibiting a double standard when it comes to religious symbols during the holidays. While both malls display menorahs for Hanukkah, they don't put up Nativity scenes for Christmas

Reuters via yahoo ^ | Dec 9, 2004 | Philip Pullella
ROME (Reuters) - An Italian school's substitution of a Nativity play with Little Red Riding Hood so as not to offend Muslim children has raised the Vatican (news - web sites)'s ire and sparked debate on how much traditions should change to accommodate immigrants. The episode was the latest in a series in recent weeks which made headlines as overwhelmingly Catholic Italy comes to grips with an ever-growing Muslim population which some see as a blessing for the economy and others as a threat. Pope John Paul (news - web sites), in a message for the Catholic Church's World Day...

Posted by RepCath
On News/Activism 12/08/2004 8:14:27 AM PST · 18 replies · 835+ views

MIAMI — A debate is brewing in a south Florida town over a nativity scene. For the past two years, Sandra Snowden (search) has been asking the town council to place a manger display next to the Jewish menorahs and Stars of David that decorate Bay Harbor Islands (search). But the town has refused, calling the controversy trivial and saying the existing display is fair because plastic snowflakes and Christmas trees are part of it. So Snowden filed a federal lawsuit, saying she will “fight this to the bitter end.” The judge expects to have the decision by early next...

A federal judge ruled that the New York City Department of Education could continue to ban the display of the Christian Nativity during Christmas. Remarkably, the judge found that the display of the Jewish Menorah during Hanukkah and the Islamic Star and Crescent during Ramadan were allowable since these symbols are “secular.” Ostensibly, state-sponsored discrimination against Christians is permissible because it provides “parity” for other religions. Not to be outdone, another federal judge in Kansas ruled that Washburn University has every right to display a sculpture mocking the Catholic faith. The oxymoronic Campus Beautification Committee selected the display, entitled “Holier than...

The war on Christmas in public schools gets curiouser and curiouser. School officials in Plano, Texas, not content to neuter Christmas by blotting out angels, Mary, and the Baby Jesus, have now banned the colors red and green. According to the Alliance Defense Fund, Plano Independent School District policy "prohibits students from wearing red and green at their ‘winter break’ parties because...they are Christmas colors. Even the plates and napkins must be white.”

Also banned: Candy canes and pencils with religious messages on them, reindeer symbols, and writing “Merry Christmas” on greeting cards to U.S. soldiers. Parents involved in school activities must also toe the secularist line: District policy bars them from exchanging “religious” Christmas items with other parents.

THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

5th grade teacher Steven Williams is suing the Cupertino Union
School District near San Francisco. The Stevens Creek
Elementary School teacher says he has been barred from using
excerpts from the Declaration of Independence and other
historical documents in class because they contain references
to God and Christianity. The lawsuit alleges the school's
principal prevented Williams from using handouts from several
documents, including the Declaration of Independence, The
Rights of the Colonists by Samuel Adams and George W.
Bush's presidential 2004 Day of Prayer proclamation.

filed a lawsuit against New York's Liverpool Central School
District. The 4th grader attends Nate Perry Elementary
School. She has not been allowed to hand out flyers to
other students containing a Christian message before or
after school. The homemade "personal statement" is only
about the size of a greeting card. It describes 5 ways that
Jesus has come into her life. The lawsuit says Michaela
did not ask to give anything out during class time and that
other literature from groups like the YMCA and Camp Fire
USA have been distributed by other children.

The Tangipahoa Parish School Board has unanimously agreed
to adopt no policy concerning prayer. The ACLU filed a federal
lawsuit in October accusing the board of endorsing prayers and
religion at Loranger High School football games, during the
school day and at school board meeting.

PRAYER BAN

The Nebraska School Activities Association has told Lutheran
and Catholic schools to stop praying before football and
basketball games even if the events take place at private
Christian schools

MrP: The guy in Cupertino [who is no longer at that school] was not pushing the Declaration of Indepdence. He was usung various documents to push a christian agenda. My office is about 10 miles from this guy's school. He is a bornagain violating separation of church and state

we are ok with the fact that schools can hand out condoms to male/female students without parents permission , schools can assist a pregnant teen get an abortion without parental consent, but somehow we get all nervous about a teacher, student or counselor perhaps sharing info about a loving God....go figure !!

t.morton,
to MrP. yo stated "The guy in Cupertino [who is no longer at that school] was not pushing the Declaration of Indepdence. He was usung various documents to push a christian agenda. My office is about 10 miles from this guy's school. He is a bornagain violating separation of church and state" - are you trying to say all his references are somehow invalid b/c of this ? i think i missed your point.

Wow, talk about a small world.

I WENT to Stevens Creek Elementary School when I was in the 6th grade (circa 1968), and lived on Cupertino Rd, not a mile from the school! The backyard used to be a vinyard, too!

Buz,

I let my daughter form her own opinions toward all things in this world. She has been to churches in the past and hasn't really liked them.

She asked me once why I didn't go to church so I told her I didn't believe the Bible to be a reliable set of writings on which to base my entire life.

She asked more, so I taught her some about the Bible and to be honest, she didn't like it at all. She especially didn't like Leviticus 20:9.

She also doesn't like the discrimination against gays, and the Christian church will always do that, for the Bible says being gay is an abomination of god.

She's like me I guess. Like father, like daughter.

Earlier in the day, Buz wrote:

"if your daughter start asking legitimate questions about God will you permit her to follow her heart and seek answers for herself or will you prevent her from froming her own opinion ?"

It's interesting that you ask this question. In fact, while I was a Christian, I allowed my son to ask legitimate questions about God, and the search that those questions started led both of us to become atheists. Should I have prevented THOSE questions from being asked, buz?

Tony, it's like Buz said, you missed the whole point. Stew asked for back up to what I had said in my post. Like Toyoto, he asked for it, he got it. Now if you would like I can send you another couple dozen and see if you can find another one that doesn't fit your agenda or requirement of evidence. Until then, I rest my case.

b.harper,
i think it commendable that you have allowed you daughter to search for truth and if her search leaves her void of faith like dad then she's made her own bed. i assume your reference to lev. was in humor b/c no child wants to be put to death. but brian i assume you are aware that much of what transpired in the old testament was directed at the nation Israel and that modern day Christians are under a new and better covenant.
.................................................

"and the search that those questions started led both of us to become atheists". this was an interesting outcome and not what normally happens (imo). i absolutlely believe you did the right thing too bad it turned out the way it did.

One other thing Tony, I go by what is reported. When I have credible evidence of the contrary refuting my evidence then I will withdraw the evidence since it would in all likelyhood be overuled. I would point out also that I stated nothing. The newspaper in question stated:

5th grade teacher Steven Williams is suing the Cupertino Union
School District near San Francisco. The Stevens Creek
Elementary School teacher says he has been barred from using
excerpts from the Declaration of Independence and other
historical documents in class because they contain references
to God and Christianity. The lawsuit alleges the school's
principal prevented Williams from using handouts from several
documents, including the Declaration of Independence, The
Rights of the Colonists by Samuel Adams and George W.
Bush's presidential 2004 Day of Prayer proclamation.

When asked to present credible evidence I site the source and allow it to speak on it's own. Opinion is hearsay and in reply to Stew, he did not want hearsay so I offered evidence contrary to his argument. If he choses to offer rebuttal I am sure he will and will offer more than hearsay since he is usually fair in his presentation. At that point final arguments may be presented and the case will go to the jury .

The truth of the matter is I don't care if my daughter becomes an atheist or a christian or a muslim. Makes no difference to me as long as she treats everyone with respect and doesn't advocate taking any rights away from anyone.

The world needs more compassion and less religion. (imo)

Mr Produce,

Thanks for the response, and I apologize for thinking your original post had been referring to one of mine... all the comments start blurring together occasionally.

The first item I asked for a source for was: "business telling employees that they must wish Happy Holidays instead of Merry CHRISTmas"

The only item in your response that seemed to fit this one was the Federated Department Stores one. However, according to your response (which by the way, a source was not given for, but I'll take your word on it for the sake of moving things along), the company in question "informally ... instructed all of its stores to, if they desire, remove all direct references to the word, 'Christmas.'" In other words it was not required, but rather left up to the individual stores themselves. Furthermore, there's no indication that many, if any, stores actually implemented this policy. Finally, it's unclear if this is referring to employee-to-employee discourse, or employee-to-customer, or simply in-store sinage or advertising. In short, this doesn't really support your original claim.

The second item I requested support for was: "Lets throw in the TV and Newspapers also in this mess while we are at it. I beleive that most decided to delete MERRY CHRISTmas because it was not the politically correct words to use anymore".

My point on this one was that even if this is true, it does not infringe on anyone's personal rights to wish others a Merry Christmas or to express their faith as they choose. None of your references address this point, so while your original claim may be true, if it is I think it's largely irrelevant.

The next item: "No, you can pray in school, but don't let the teacher see you with your head bowed in prayer unless you wish to be ostersized by the teacher."

While you did give several school examples, as far as I could see none of them involved students simply praying in school, which is what your claim was originally about. Instead, all of the examples involved putting up nativities in public areas of the school, or actively proselytizing to other students. That being said, in many of those cases the students were probably within their rights, and the banning of the colors red and green is certainly ridiculous. However, it's definitely worth noting that in many of those cases, the students prevail in the lawsuits, effectively showing that they are simply cases of a few overzealous teachers or administrators. Also, for hugh and the other ACLU-haters, take note that the ACLU *defended the students* involved in the case where they were punished for distributing religiously-themed candy canes:

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17598&c=38 (the Feb 21, 2003 entry)

So I agree that there are some cases where students' rights are trampled on, often involving administrators who are sadly unaware of what the law really says, but the courts usually set things right in these cases. However, your original contention that students are ostracized for simply bowing their heads in prayer is unsupported by these references.

Next item: "God help the merchant that puts up any kind of nativity display on HIS property, for there will be those who hate the use of the name of God, Jesus, Christ in any form, the pickets lines will soon form outside and deprive this merchant with his right to make a living, ie his pursuit of happiness."

None of your examples gave evidence to support this assertion, or my counterpoint that there are at least several examples of businesses that put their faith up front and suffer no ill effects.

The final item dealt with saying the pledge in school, and unless I missed something (very possible), none of your examples offered any support of your claims there.

In short, while you did offer quite a long list of items, none of them actually supported your original claims. In light of that, I hope you'll reevaluate your views of the situation.

HooRay for Brian Harper. Don't brainwash your children or let anyone else do it. Let them make decisions for themselves when they're ready to.

"HooRay for Brian Harper. Don't brainwash your children or let anyone else do it. Let them make decisions for themselves when they're ready to."

i agree, but i believe we all know that when we raise chilren, they are subjected to our biases (good & bad) whether intentional or not. so i don't believe they are completely making decisions on their own, until perhaps after they have moved out and are living on their own ( & maybe not even then ). as parents it is our responsibility to instill certain values in our offspring.

.................................
b.harper it sounds as though you are raising a socially conscious daughter. i agree that we need less religion ( i think of the pharisee's when i hear this word )...but we need more Jesus !

Stew, I picked the major ones, I could have gone through my archives and picked you a hundred or more however space was limited. Now if you still think I am makeing all this up I will be more than happy to send you a bundle file and allow you to read for the next couple of days and then you may still not be satisfied and want to pick and choose. In that case I can direct you to about 3 dozen sites that have at least a couple of hundred examples, or else you can Goggle it or link it on Explorer (Yahoo) and read for days and days. I beleive I have established the ground work for my defense, you have offered nothing in defense of your attack except your opinion. If perhaps you would offer to the contrary of what I have offered then I would be more than happy to be considered overruled, until then I beleive my case stands as stated.
The point is that because of a few God, Jesus , Christ is being forced out of our society. It's a fact, like it or not. The holidays will be here soon and I am sure we will be hearing more of this same thing. A handful suing someone because they dared use the word CHRISTmas in a greeting, on a sign, on a window or in print. You and I both know that Political Correctness is nothing more than humanism/secularism and a host of other ism's. Personally I don't wish to see this country move in that direction. A person stated in another blog, that the problem with this country is too much religion, I could not agree more. Humanism is a religion of self worship, secularism is a religion of worship of nothingness the other isms offer a variety of the same. We do not need more religion. I believe Buz stated that it is not religion that we need but more of Jesus Christ. I know folks don't like to hear that either but I said it anyhow. If we were to follow just the teaching that Jesus gave to a young lawyer on day when asked , What is the greatest of the commandment's. Jesus answered him" Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart with all thy mind, with all they soul and with all they strength, and the second is Thou shall love thy neighbor as they self,.( He went on to conclude that on these two commandents all the rest of the law is hinged, hooked, hung, take your choice of words depending on the translation or the Book. The passage I refered to is in Luke 10. ) then much of the strife we see in the world and in this country would be eliminated. People constantly ask , why can't we just get along, as the writer did in this letter. The reason is that the world doesn't know much less recognize the one who can bring the understanding it takes to achieve this and that is Jesus Christ. Agree or disagree, that is your choice. I offer it only in love and hope that many others will come to this realization.

Tony, just a bit of education so don't take offense. The prayer closet that you refer to is not a closet in the house, although it may be a place of choice for some. In the context of when this was written and it still continues to modern times in Jewish religion, the prayer closet was often considerd the prayer shawl worn by Jewish men. When they would kneel on thier knees and bow their heads they would pull the shawl over their heads and cover not only their head but face thereby blocking out all distractions and then pray. This was the context of entering into the closet to pray. The other context is that one prays silently, entering into ones self, or into the heart , or into the spirit, and pray and this is directed more to the gentile in that time and context since gentile worshipers did not wear a prayer shawl. By doing so one is removing the distractions just as placing the prayer shawl over the head did for the Jew.
In modern day context, many take this as entering into that part of the spirit where distrations are removed and then praying. Of course one would not be wrong if one did choose to enter into their house and into a closet or other space set aside for prayer.
I hope that this has contributed something to your knowledge concerning prayer and entering into ones closet.

mr produce:

"Now if you still think I am makeing all this up"

As far as whether your examples are factual or not, I'm not questioning that. I looked up a few on my own, and they seemed to check out ok.

"I beleive I have established the ground work for my defense, you have offered nothing in defense of your attack except your opinion. If perhaps you would offer to the contrary of what I have offered then I would be more than happy to be considered overruled, until then I beleive my case stands as stated. "

I haven't made an attack, I've simply asked for support for your original claims. I'm not sure how you can say your case stands -- you haven't addressed anything I said in my last post! I took each one of your original claims, and compared it to the examples you posted, and none of the examples supported your claims.

You say, "The point is that because of a few God, Jesus , Christ is being forced out of our society." We could debate that based on the new examples you posted, but I'm unwilling to move on to a new set of claims if you won't either address my points about your previous claims or admit that you have no support for those original claims.

If it helps you to see what I'm saying, let's take just one of your original claims for starters. You said:

"God help the merchant that puts up any kind of nativity display on HIS property, for there will be those who hate the use of the name of God, Jesus, Christ in any form, the pickets lines will soon form outside and deprive this merchant with his right to make a living, ie his pursuit of happiness."

None of your examples showed any instances of this happening. Do you agree? If so, will you withdraw this claim? If not, can you tell me specifically which of your examples showed a pattern of major, livelihood threatening boycotts of businesses because of a nativity scene?

Since you have already checked out some of the claims Stew, do the rest of them. I am tired of taking one thing and having to prove what is already a given. I offered bundles, etc. I have no time for the rest. I did not move on to another subject, I believe the point I pointed out was the point the original writer was making,Tolerance. I have addressed that original issue in various ways. Take what you want from it, demand more but you got all your getting today. Find another line to pick at if it makes you happy. I offered enough evidence on the fact that a few are intolerant of the many, and that is/was the point. If you need more look for yourself as I have done over time. It will aid in your education on such subjects. I neither withdraw nor concede anything the point was made, no need for me to spoon feed you. Thanks for you opinion.

" I am tired of taking one thing and having to prove what is already a given."

If you can offer no support for claims such as "businesses that display nativity scenes have their livelihoods threatened by boycotts" then your claims are obviously not "a given". If they were a given, it would be easy to provide some examples of this happening. The fact that you can't do this leaves me no choice but to reject the claim that "businesses that display nativity scenes have their livelihoods threatened by boycotts".

You may or may not have an argument that God is being forced out of society, and you could possibly convince me and others of that. But neither I nor any sensible person is going to bother debating you or taking your claims seriously if you can't even admit that you were unable to support some of your original claims with evidence.

I'm honestly baffled as to why you can't just say "You're right, I have no evidence for those original claims" and then move on to a different aspect of the argument. Does your whole position hinge on those boycotts, or the belief that students are getting ostracized for silently bowing their heads in prayer?

Stew you are like a child who just keeps asking why. I use to give mine a book and tell them to look it up when they persisted.
So I will give you several sites that you can go to and find the answers to your questions . I have spent years collecting information and reading on these subjects and I will now give you the opportunity to educate you self. I have included several on the child(ren) ostersized for praying in school. I am sure you will find those interesting or at least they will answer you incessent questioning. No one had to spoon feed me and I don't feel I should have to spoon feed you just to satisfy you.
Here are a few sites. You may do as I did and sift through them and I am sure you will find your answers as I did. After you finish with them and should you have further questions you may do as I did and research the answers.

In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch. The teacher stormed to Raymond's table, ordered him to stop immediately and sent him to the principal's office. The principal informed the young malefactor that praying was not allowed in school. When Raymond was again caught praying before meals on three separate occasions, he was segregated from other students, ridiculed in front of his classmates, and finally sentenced to a week's detention.

Before snack time in her kindergarten class in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., little Kayla Broadus held hands with two of her classmates and recited this prayer: "God is good, God is great, thank you, God, for my food." The alert teacher pounced on Kayla, severely reprimanded her, and reported her to the school administration. In short order, the principal sent a sternly worded letter to Kayla's parents advising them that Kayla was not allowed to pray in school, aloud or with others.

Here are a few others on a bit different slant but students ostersized because of their beliefs.

Thanks to the vigilance of an alert teacher at Lynn Lucas Middle School outside of Houston, two sisters carrying Bibles were prevented from bringing their vile material into a classroom. The teacher stopped the students at the classroom door and marched them to the principal's office. (Maybe it was just the sight of public school students carrying a book of any kind that set off alarm bells.) The sisters' mother was called and warned that the school intended to report her to Child Protective Services. When the mother arrived, the teacher threw the Bibles in the wastebasket, shouting, "This is garbage!"

In another display of tolerance at Lynn Lucas Middle School, school administrators snatched three students' books with covers displaying the Ten Commandments, ripped the covers off, threw them in the garbage, and told the students that the Ten Commandments constituted "hate speech." (Also, it would be insensitive to expose the Ten Commandments to students who had never been taught to count to 10.)

"Stew you are like a child who just keeps asking why"

Glad to see you've resorted to insults now. You talk about spoonfeeding -- it's taken about six posts now for me to finally coax out of you some actual references for just one of your claims.

"So I will give you several sites"

You gave me no sites at all. Here's some more spoonfeeding for you now: You gave a few andecdotes, but didn't give any sources for them. You are making the claims, it's your job to defend them with sources that can be checked by anyone reading this. It's only because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and honestly trying to engage in a discussion with you (though I'm begining to wonder why) that I'm going through the trouble of verifying your unsourced antecdotes.

"In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch..."

According to the Washington Post article on this incident (via http://demagogue.blogspot.com/2003_09_21_demagogue_archive.html ):

"He was disciplined for some matters that were totally independent of silent praying,'' Superintendent David Mahan said. "We did a very thorough investigation. We talked to teachers, administrators and also to some students, and we could not find any evidence of the allegations that the parent and the student made.''

And according to the L.A. Times (via the same website):

"But school officials said the incident never happened. Rather, they said, Raymond was disciplined for fighting in the cafeteria."

So it seems there's some dispute as to why the student was disciplined.

'Before snack time in her kindergarten class in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., little Kayla Broadus held hands with two of her classmates and recited this prayer: "God is good, God is great, thank you, God, for my food."'

I found this one, and it's true. It's also worth noting that it went to court, and as the case was settled, the little girl can now pray in school, as was always her right. As I said before, I don't doubt that there are a few misguided administrators and teachers out there.

As for the last two, from what I could tell, the school district denies the events happened, and the lawsuits were actually dropped.

So out of those examples, only one is an unambiguous case of a student's right to pray being infringed upon. If you think this adds up to some sort of broad movement to take away the right of personal prayer, then I'm not sure there's much I can do to help you. I think your feelings of persecution, in a country where Christians are in the majority, and public expressions of faith abound, are unjustified. But it's obvious that you've made up your mind.

mr p:

In case there's some confusion as to why I'm saying you gave me no sites, let me be a little more explicit: When you give a reference like that, you should include a name of or a link to the source that the reference came from. Anyone can claim anything they want, and their claim can be difficult to verify or evaluate if they don't say where it came from.

MrProduce:

I've checked out some of these points you've given us and found nothing that indicates anything fishy going on.

The Raymond Raines story you quoted was lifted directly from Ann Coulter. Hardly what I'd call a non-biased source. Check out one of the man rebuttals I found with a quick search here:

http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/gingrich.htm

"Little Kayla Broadus" was lifted from Ms. Coulter as well. Again, you didn't point to the results of what actually took place. Here's a lighthearted response.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/2003/09/30.html

The last example you gave turned out to be nonsense a well. The suit was retracted by the very people that filed it as it was untrue.

http://chat.amarillonet.com/stories/061000/tex_LD0717.shtml

In short, if you find Ann Coulter to be a reliable source of information, you sir, should check all the facts she presents. Most of these items are debunked easily. It's always easy to me to see it coming when there are things like "little" such and such in the wording. Those tear jerking lines to get people excited.

THIS is what I fear in this country these days. There are people who will argue all day long that these things show how society is falling. These same people refuse to examine all the facts before making that determination.