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Country follows path that destroyed Rome

Translation: "please please vote for a liberal democrat next election".

That's an inaccurate translation, neocon. I don't ask people to vote in one direction or the other, only to cosider more than one issue when looking at the candidates.

Would you prefer that all liberal politicians be removed from the political process? Would you mind telling us what is so horrible that liberals should be silenced in this country?

I saw Howard Dean recently on Russert I believe. When asked about SC nominee Alito the "A" word came up. His response was that the government had no business in women's "healthcare choices".

This said from a former presidential candidate that wants to nationalize healthcare, how hypocritical. He couldn't even use the word abortion - the termination of the life of an unborn child. It's a "healthcare choice", never mind the health of the child.

I disagree that most voters are so myopic to vote on one issue in making their decisions. I have voted Democratic a few times in the past but mainly vote Republican for other reasons in addition to abortion. I don't really care about gay marriage, just don't want it shoved down mine and my children's throats by the radical gays.

I see a Democratic party led and/or influenced by wacko fringes like Howard Dean, Durbin, Kennedy, KKK Byrd, Micheal Moore, Cindy Sheehan, George Soros, ACLU, Jackson, Sharpton, Hollywood et. al.

I reject their ideas of race baiting, class warfare, blame America first, victimization, income redistribution, abortion on demand (even for minors without parental consent), and removal of anything religious in the public. Their message is contrary to beliefs and values I hold dear.

Before anyone lays into me, remember I have been very critical of Republicans on illegal immigration, runaway spending, and the Medicare drug fiasco.

Here, here, Eric. Well thought out and well said. But apparently you stepped on neocon's toes. Apparently he is one who votes for one issue or one party candidates.

Anytime one person or one party tries to legislate morality, they/it make themselves look like Hitler, Stalin or radical Islamics. For they think it is their God-given right to force their own morals on everybody else.

I say, "Walk The Walk and Talk the Talk" and people will be more open to God and His teaching. Trying to use force successfully is like trying to push a wet noodle. Never has worked, never will.

I understand you are encouraging voters to look at the whole picture rather than just a few brush strokes. It is sage advice. Too bad too many people have such closed minds.

Nemo
I think yvonne answered my reaction to neocon translation. But bad choice of questions. The answer to your first question will be a resounding YES! After all havent you learned that liberals are a God hating and destroy America at all cost group that should only not vote but should leave this country as they obviously dont love it as much.

To your second question. You mean other than not holding Bush as the second coming of God nothing.
Yes there are extremes as Dan points out but lets not forget the extremes on the right.

Dan
as has been done so many times before we can go back and forth with name throwing. Kenedy/helms, Jackson/falwell and so on.

I dont believe in race baiting, blame america first but I also dont believe as many on the right want me to believe that there is a true racial equality in this country and I dont believe that what america does in this world is all good, beyond criticism and God ordained and yes we have done things that has angered people. I dont believe the Pledge of Allegiance should be forbidden but I also dont think religion as a religion has a place in the school.Which means teaching students about the religions of the world is one thing but teaching how to be a good christian or muslem is something different. Teaching Belief belongs in the church and within the family.

Sorry I got really off track here as there were two points I wanted to react to.
First the "KKK" Byrd. Correct me here but arent people in the KKK more likely to vote republican today?

Second I must say I giggle at this comment about how people on the right here try to distance themselves from Bush by criticizing his anti-immigration policies. I mean the criticism is NOT that he has gone to far in clamping down but he hasnt done enough. To me it is like saying in our current debt explosion that he has done enough tax cuts. I hope you understand what I am trying to get at here.

Eric,no I would not prefer that all liberal politicans be removed from the arena. I would prefer that they state what they really stand for when runnung for office so that they will continue to suffer defeat at the ballot box. But as Dan stated in his post,Howard Dean could not even bring himself to utter the word 'abortion'. Why is this? If he (they)truly believe in the right of a woman to take the life of an unborn child,then go ahead and say it.

Also,I wish they would say what they really want when it comes to the issue of income redistribution, healthcare, etc. If I want to see what the left in this country really think, I go to the liberal blogs at the daily Kos,move on,etc. This is where they feel free to express themselves, not on the cable news shows where the voters can see just how 'open minded' and diverse their ideas really are. They dare not express what they truly feel toward the 'red state' voters as this would only increase the conservative majority in the government.

They speak in lingo that is meant to confuse and convey the idea that they are in the mainstream. Such jibberish as The republicans want to 'turn back the clock on civil rights' and 'return women to 2nd class citizens'status.What rubbish!

Sorry, Yvonne. I already do look at more than a single issue when deciding to cast my vote. It's just that the liberals has yet to come up with one idea that I can bring myself to vote for.

Welcome back Hayes, haven't heard from you in awhile.

First off I never said America is perfect, but the blame America first crowd sees this country as the source of all the worlds problems. I never said that proselytizing should take place in the public schools, but anything Christian is a no no. A good example was at UNC-CH a few years ago. The book for Freshmen to read was a sanitized explanation of the Qur'an. Do you think they would ever require reading about the Bible?

My point is the onslaught of stupid lawsuits by the ACLU, which become more frequent around the "holiday" season and the attempts to remove God from the pledge, currency, and anywhere else.

As for KKK Byrd here is an interesting link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd Byrd was a Kleage in the Klan. I find it ironic that Bush gets slammed for previously having a drinking problem, but having a former KKK member as a US Senator is no problem with Dems.

I'm not sure who KKK members vote for, don't know any of them.

I do critcize Bush for NOT doing anything about illegal immigration, the Dems have done nothing either. Don't agree with you on the tax cuts, the problem is the unfettered spending on both sides. Tax cuts always stimulate the economy. Despite a war and multiple hurricanes the US economy is still growing. Raise taxes and kiss that goodbye.

Glad you're back.

Dan
I think the point I was trying to make didnt come across clear so I will just let it die; it is not all that important to spend time on.

As far as Byrd and the KKK I personally have trouble with anyone of that background whether it be the KKK or Nation of Islam. But it says alot to me about the people who vote them in knowing their background. I forget his name but the republican senator from SC who recently retired at the age of 100(?) he was or is no better than byrd. At least in my opinion Gingrich comes from a klan rich area. I am not saying or even trying to suggest Gingrich himself is but that many in his district who votes for him are maybe closet klan or sympathetic to some of their beliefs. I personally find gingrich to be a very sharp politician.

My gut feeling is that 30 years ago KKK probably went democrat but today I feel they vote republican due mainly to how the blacks vote. I dont know anyone who claims they are KKK but do know several people that either are KKK or would be prime candidates and they vote republican.

Being in germany I seem to miss some of the new lingo sometimes. But what is income redistribution?

Neocon
Maybe you are right about how the liberals try to paint the right as you wrote but are the conservatives any better when they try to paint all liberals as ungodly american haters.

By the way I dont know who watched Meet the Press this week but Tim Russert really set up his democratic and republican guest this week. He first had them react to a comment in which they heavily criticized only to show them that the comment came from one of their own party. Kennedy got caught going after a comment made by Kerry. And before anyone jumps on the kennedy attack the republican guest faired and did no better.

It just confirmed the hypocrisy in both parties.

Hayes,

You are talking about Strom Thurmond from SC. He was a segregationist and a Democrat. He switched to Republican in 1964. Still a segregationist at that point, but this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond says he had a change of heart in the 70's.

The KKK is a shell of itself and really has no political influence in either party IMO. If so, they would surely hate Bush for appointing Condi Rice and Alberto Gonzales.

Income redistribution: Some on the left think it is unfair that upper income people have money and poor people are being screwed. So to make things more fair, they want to confiscate money from the haves and give it to the have nots. This concept is so totally normal in Europe that they probably don't even have a term for it.

I'm not just talking about your 85 year old grannie who can't take care of herself, she deserves help.

I did training with a woman recently who had 2 kids out of wedlock before she was 20. She told me she received welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing, day care susidies, and WIC (another food stamp program). All she did was work part time for the few items the govt didn't cover. That is income redistribution.

She could have continued this arrangement (many do), but luckily she decided to get an education and become something. Of course the govt paid for her education, but at least now she is working and off the dole.

Again I have no problem helping people who fall on hard times due to lay offs, illneses, or other factors beyond their control. It should be temporary however!!

I don't think that conservatives try to paint all liberals as 'ungodly america haters'. But....

Who is it that has historicaly bashed the American military? ...the American left.
Who is it that we always see burning the American flag?.... the American left.
Who is it we see trashing everything traditional American?...the American left.
Who is the ex-president that travels to foreign countries and there criticizes America's action on the war on terror? The original American leftist,Jimmie Carter.

Anyone see a pattern here?.....

Dan,

Just wanted to give you some information about the Quaran book that was "required" of UNC students. First of all-the classes that are offered when freshman students come in for the fall semester regarding the summer reading are voluntary-and if any student chooses not the read the book, it is completely acceptable. Only a handful of professors use the book in thier classes and students were able to switch out of that class or right on another topic. I was a student at the time and it was down right laughable that people were suing the school because a good number of students never bother to read the summer reading to begin with-whatever it is. It was merely a publicity stunt. The University chose the book because there had been some issues on campus regarding harrassment of muslim students after 9-11. They wanted incoming freshman to read a book that discussed the good side of that religion. The University has chosen novels that cover topics from racism and poverty, to the life of a West Point Student. To compare that to reading the bible is silly--the book was not the KORAN-it discussed the peaceful side of the religion. And the bible is read in many classrooms! In an English class at UNC I read the book of Ruth and read several Psalms. The bible is everywhere-I had to read excerpts of it in high school -imagine what people would have said if someone in the class had told the teacher he/she didnt want to read the bible because it was not thier religion? You would expect them to deal with it. Well, deal with the Koran, and the Torah etc. because if you think it is ok for Christianity to be mentioned in schools, you better be willing to accept all religions. Somehow I do not think that is what you and the religious right want.

neocon,

I don't disagree with all you've said,but....

There's a great flash video here.

http://www.greentowel.com/images/qt/GreenTowel_Liberal.mov

tell me if you agree.

I'm sorry, it's a quicktime video.

My turn:

"They speak in lingo ... meant to confuse and convey the idea that they are in the mainstream."

Don't be separating the left from the right - both sides are guilty lying bastards speaking in tongues.

"Who is it that has historicaly bashed the American military [and] that we always see burning the American flag?"

My friend you are stuck in the Vietnam error - I lived through those days, and here's my perspective:

Many [not all] of the soldiers involved early on got out relatively unscathed and ended up well adjusted people. Same for many non-foot soldiers.

Many [not all] of the foot soldiers involved after about 1968 are kinda weird if not genuinely screwed up.

"Who is it we see trashing everything traditional American?"

What the hell is "traditional American"?

Gay folks have been around forever - so have perverted Catholic priests.

Some "traditional Americans" think we should be planning and saving for the future, not squandering today.

Some "traditional Americans" think there should be a clear separation for church and state - and that using federal monies - read as my tax dollars - should not be placed in the hands of ministers in exchange for their pulpit praise of a given political party.

Some "traditional Americans" think some of the current actions - in the name of the war on terror - are just plain stupid.

Some "traditional Americans" think the government should stay the hell out of our lives, and not be telling is what to do.

Please don't over simplify - when one says unqualified things like "Tax cuts always stimulate the economy", one misleads at best.

What "Tax cuts" are you talking about? Income Brackets? Corporate Welfare? Capital Gains? Off-Shore Investment Loopholes? Trickle Down?

"Some on the left think it is unfair that upper income people have money and poor people are being screwed." Dan sited a great example, but there is a third alternative reason:

Upper income people USUALLY have money because they have rich or connected parents. A Very Few have earned it. Poor people are generally being screwed, and while much may be their fault, never is ALL of it always their fault - a broad generalization without "wearing the other guy's shoes"

As for the original letter, it is clearly a fact that most folks have not listened enough to make an informed decision - so IF they vote, they vote in a way that will not offend their friends, or their preacher, and in any other way that will embarrass themselves. Ultimately they all want to be on the "winner's" side.

Neocon
I think to paint a general picture of many from the actions of a few extremes is unfair.

Military Bashing: In a recent book by a decorated colonel he points out effectively how the democrats have been just as supportive in voting for military increases and supportive of the military as any republican the last 30 years. Understand in this book he is highly critical of the democrats and republicans in how they use the military so this book is not out to defend the democrats.

Flag Burning: Most of the liberals/democrats I know are just as angered by any flag burning as any conservative/republican. I would venture to say this is probably true across the country so dont lump the action of a few idiots with the whole here.

American values: Though I dont always agree with how many liberals would like to see the US I also dont agree with everything from the right either. And yes when asked to define american values the liberals will have something different from the conservatives BUT the conservatives DONT OWN the right to define what these values are and again while not agreeing with everything they want I dont eqaute bashing american values with a view that is different from the conservatives.

Carter: First lets not forget even Bushes own father has been critical. Now I do wish Carter would choose a better place to voice his opinion.
But the man rolls ups his sleeve and goes into poor villages and helps build homes and does so because he believes in what he is doing not for some photo op. While most past republican presidents go on 500,000 fee world tours(Yes I know clinton is no better here but this is what sepeates carter from all other ex-presidents). Yes Carter sucked as a president but his action speaks volumnes about how americans reach out to help those in need. Sort of a nice american value thing I think.

By the way given time, which I dont have at the moment, I could use examples and make the conservatives look like nazis. But it would be a false picture and wrong.

Brian Harper, so we owe space exploration,the women's right to vote, and the end of slavery to liberals? LOL LOL Send that propaganda video to Robert Byrd. I'm sure HE will agree with you.

JDR, I don't have time to respond to your mini-novel,but your point about the wealthy having their wealth because of rich or well connected parents is a load of socialist bullshit. There are many that do. But for the most part the sucessful people that I have known have worked long and hard to earn their wealth. They don't sit around in front of a computer and carp about the 'rape and pillage' of the country.They are taking part in the bounty that the American system has to offer.

As for your rant about the traditional American values, I suppose most of that is in the eye of the beholder,but somehow I don't see the gay marriage issue as traditional American. And I couldn't agree more with the government 'staying the hell out of our lives'. But it is the radical -(fill in the blank) crowd that want government to intrude by way of more laws"protecting" their "right" to-(fill in the blank).

"It is clearly a fact that most folks have not listened enough to make an informed decision".
Translation: Most folks are just too damned stupid to see things my way.

Hayes, you make some good points and I will ponder them and reply. But Jimmie "Chavez" Carter has taken America bashing on foreign soil to a whole new level.

Dan
I must apologize for not returning your welcome back. So I will do it now. Thanks!!

Neocon
To expand that while I support carters right to give his opinion and he has an unigue position as an ex-president I do think and had hope he show enough respect for the current president as an ex-president to not express those opinions in a country in which we are at odds with. Do it in Britain but not there.

It is sad when a good message, I talking in general here now, gets lost because of how or where that messenger chooses to give that message.

K, I'm a UNC-CH grad but that was back in the early 80's. We didn't have these special books to read back in the Dark Ages.

Here is a book for you to read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260131/qid=1131493726/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3060310-7020816?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Please let me know if UNC-CH would allow that book for the reading? After all we need a diversity of opinions on college campuses right? If so, I will stand corrected.

By the way, UNC was where I started to lean to the left. Then I participated in the UNC year abroad in France. After experiencing socialism I became a conservative.

I still pull for the UNC football & basketball teams however!! That will never change.

Eric,

I agree 100% that voters need to examine more than one issue. I know I did and I think most voters do.

But I'd also say that among those that don't, there are probably many democrats who vote for democrats solely because of abortion and gay rights.

Is your letter based on some study you've seen about people who vote based on a single issue?

I've recently wondered what would happen if the Republican party dropped the fight about abortion and gay rights. In my opinion, it would render the democrats completely void of ANY platform. But that's probably just my extremist perspective taking hold.