News-Record.com

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again:

Let's pretend it's 2009 and President Hillary Clinton has unchecked wiretapping authority with no oversight. You'd trust her to do the right thing, wouldn't you?

Been reading some interesting comments the past few days on this topic and everyone has missed the point. Here is what happens in two categories.

1. The Internet - You visit a site that has a link to a foreign web page where any one of 300 terrorist organizations have posted information. Your IP address (the number that identifies you on the Internet) is logged and then researched by an NSA official. Then your Internet activity is monitored including personal email. Your personal information is obtained from your ISP (Internet Service Providor) and your phone is monitored as well.
2. The Telephone - Same as above.

This is why this is illegal. You ventured into a place on the Internet innocently and become the subject of an investigation. Where in this scenario (which is real) was a warrant granted, or even applied for?

This has nothing to do with Republicans, Democrats, or the popular N&R "Bush Haters"... This has everything to do with the abuse of power and the flagrant violation of basic Constitutional Rights. Bush must do everything "in his power" do safeguard our Nation, but he must play by the rules.

As for the oil, ask the Vice President...

Crypto, that is about as a succinct explanation I have seen or hear to give clarity to what is possibly happening. Kudos to you for doing such!

Denzien has posed a very unique question that has yet to receive a reply as well!

Shalom

Crypto,
Great post. After doing some research of my own, I found it is so easy to become a target of an "investigative" wiretap under the President's NSA order. I wish it was as simple as the blogger who said, "Don't do nothin' wrong and you don't have to worry", but unfortunately, it is not that way.
Hopefully, some die hard supporters of the President will see how dangerous this is, and come out from the bushes.

"Denzien has posed a very unique question that has yet to receive a reply as well!"

Thanks, though I don't really expect an answer out of anybody. I will admit, however, that seeing one of our resident right-wingers write something to the effect of "Hillary Clinton should have unchecked domestic spying powers" would make my day, even if the thought makes my neck hairs stand on end.

Remember those wild, wacky days when conservatives used to NOT trust the government and liberals wanted more government?

Very informative, Crypto. Nice to hear a new voice. Most of us have shared our ideas for so long that all I have to do is look at the name and know basically what they will say; same with me also.

Denzian, loved your last statement. Soooo true. As the daughter of a yellow dog Democrat father and a Republican mother, I listened to a lot of "debates". What stands out most is daddy would say the Republicans were for the rich, and mama would say the Democrats started wars. IMO the Republican party of today has combined the two.

Although I do nothing illegal, I sometimes wonder if these blogs cause us to be "suspect". I signed a petition a friend asked me to sign a while back, and have discovered it made me a member of MoveOn.Org. Guess I had better be careful. I surely won't be allowed to be a judge or on the jury if a Bush person is on trial.

Still waiting to here an answer to the Hilary question.

internment camps? electronic ankle bracelets?

Crypto left out one important part: Only if there are repeat contacts to that link and then perhaps, and the odds are long, unless they are very numerous that anything will be noted.

Another important question, how do we know that it only has to be "one contact" or "one visit" or "one telephone" call for surveillence to begin?

As the situation stands now, we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about what is going on. This is aside from the fact that illegal surveillence has taken place without ANY type of warrant. This is a direct violation of EVERYONE's Fourth Constitutional Amendment!

When will the crowds stand up and realize that currently, the Constitution of the US is being trampled upon like a piece of garbage on the street?

Shalom

"When will the crowds stand up and realize that currently, the Constitution of the US is being trampled upon like a piece of garbage on the street?"

Jeez, man- Survivor/American Idol/The Simple Life is on- can we talk about this later?

Sure Denzien, we will discuss it when you and I are sitting in an obscure cell bound & gagged, in some some far away country; locked away in for visiting various web sites!

Shalom

Glad I could put this issue in a very real light. You can be anonymous on the Internet, but it is expensive...but then again, so is the cost of freedom!
I wish all of you could experience what it's like to have your phone calls monitored, emails read, hard drives scanned, and computer confiscated because you wrote a paper for class.
The Fed has moved to far into our homeland and as soon as people realize this, the more Denzein's Clinton in 09 scenario will NOT be realized.

That is what we have been preaching Crypto, if things keep happening as they are, there will be no 2008 election!

Shalom

Agreed,Mr.Parson. Especially the part about those who are whining now will be the first to lay blame on Bush and wonder why he did not see the attack coming.

Mrproduce is correct in pointing out that the nsa has no interest in anyone who "ventured into a place on the internet innocently". Only if they "venture" there repeatedly. To open an investagation into any and all of the persons who "venture" into one of these websites would leave the feds little time for anything else. They would be spending ALL their time chasing ghosts.

I will answer Denzien's question,altough I never saw a list of the liberties that Bush has taken away from him.
Let's say that it is 2009 and queen Hillary is the president(I can almost feel the longing there) and she is wiretapping phone lines of suspected terrorists in an attempt to ward off any future attacks on America. I say more power to her.
But I gotta put a disclaimer in here. I don't think pres. Hillary would have the brass to pursue the terrorists. I think she would bend over backwards in order not offend these rag...ahem...freedom fighters.

"not offend these rag...ahem...freedom fighters."

Seriously neocon, we're all tire of the raghead remarks. Racism is for the ignorant so please drop the redneck raghead remarks.

On the subject, if Hillary secretly wiretaps Americans, she should be impeached and fired for breaking the law. This isn't a republican/democrat issue, it's one of what's right and what's wrong.

Liberals. The sensible Americans!

" we're all tire of the raghead remarks"
I'm all broken-hearted about what you're tire of Brian Harper. Not offending you or the ragheads is way,way down on my list.

I'm all tire of you liberals defending the people who want to kill us all and trashing the ones who are trying to do something about it. I have as much right to my opinion as you to your's.

Neo,
You do have a right....that is right now. If the current administration continues to use the constitution as its toilet paper of choice, then you will not have those rights in the future. That is the message.
You have a right to your opinion, and it is definitely an opinion. Using racial slurs is no way to win over anyone to your opinions, but rather exposes you for who you really are.

neocon,

In no way do I defend those wanting to kill us, but grouping all arabs as ragheads and all arabs as those wanting to kill us is just plain ignorant.

There are many good arabs out there. Hell, Jesus was an arab.

Gotta love the south.

Deacon:

Neo,
You do have a right....that is right now. If the current administration continues to use the constitution as its toilet paper of choice, then you will not have those rights in the future. That is the message.

OOOOOhhh, they're coming to take you away, they're coming to take you away. They're coming to take you away oh ah!!!! Watch out Neo, keep a bloggin here and Bush, Cheney, Rummie & Condie will be at your door toute de suite!! What pitiful fearmongering.

Carol, welcome to moveon.org. You may want to subscribe and see what kind of wackos have taken over the Democratic party. Contrary to the TV series, "Mother knows best".

Brian, when did you acknowledge Jesus?

"If the current administration continues to use the constitution as it's toilet paper of choice"...
World treveler, funny, I don't recall reading anything from you about fdr and his toilet paper when he signed into law the unconstitutional law that seized the property of one american and turned it over to another who never earned it.

And I don't recall reading anything from you about the constitution being used as toilet paper about the unconstutional law we know as the income tax.

And I don't recall hearing anything from you when the liberals on the sc said it was ok for one private individual to seize the property of another if said individual would use the property to increase the tax base to the almighty state... I could go on and on.

"using racial slurs".. What racial slurs?.. It is well and fine to call the president of the us a simpleton and murderer of children,but we cannot offend the bastards who want to kill us,huh?

As far as 'exposing you for who you really are' I have never tried to hide who I really am.
Just because I refuse to bow down to the bastards who want to destroy the country and kill us all doesn't mean I'm a racist. That is the oldest play in the liberal handbook. Sorry, your pc message is falling on deaf ears here.

It is so refreshing hearing some one telling a liberal off. Not that it will every do any good. They are the same ones that if Bush quit wire tapping terrorist in our country and we had another home land attack would be the first to scream to Impeach him for not protecting the country. There is nothing this president can ever do to please a liberal. Not one person has every came forward to prove that their "rights" have been destroyed. Some times I wish that we could divid the country up by blue states and red states. Blue run their country any way they want and we in the red states would run ours by the constitution as it was written before the courts illegally changed it true meaning. Does the "2nd amendment to the constitution" ring a bell. To hear liberals get upset about someone messing with someone rights is a joke.

How deaf are some of these people here?

The issue is not about wiretapping!

The issue is about ILLEGAL wiretapping!

Can everyone here read? That message has been put forth on countless occasions here and yet it is totoally IGNORED! What is wrong?

This is a tragic "slippery slope" situation and I fear what the end result may/could be. Let us hope that my fear is not realized.

Shalom

And the winner is NEOCON by a TKO.

the only ones that are saying its illegal is, wait let me guess, is LIBERALS, and even some from the Clinton and Carter Justice dept. has stated on national tv that the President had and has the power to do so. You will never be satisfied with any facts but there they are.

Read the Fourth (IV) Amendment to the US Constitution and then tell me that it is LEGAL, regardles of who had been involved in this most dastardly act of injustice!

I have yet to read any facts that would lead me to believe otherwise.

Also, although it has been requested, there has yet to be ANY evidence presented that would allude to the fact that Any previous administration has engaged in ANY ILLEGAL wiretaps, etc. So, where is all of the evidence to support the accusations of "the other guy doing it too?"

Shalom

Like I said before, you have your mind made up on Bush. Any facts that are thrown at you, you're not going to believe. As much as anyone trys to tell you, it is NOT illegal for the President to authorize warrantless wire taps for the security of this country. the fact that you don't want Bush to be able to is something you will have to live with. I personal want Bush or any other president to use any and all means to protect this country. But you keep on nit-picking on who you want to protect you.

Bobby, If you became a victim of an investigation that caused you to spend time in jail or loose your reputation, your job, your family, your safety, your money, your privacy (and you were innocent), would you still think it was OK to illegally wiretap? Don't think it can't happen because it already has happened to innocent people right here in America. And somehow I think "Sorry, we were wrong. We received some bad information." just doesn't cut it.

One can afford to be apathetic or superior when it is not you who is affected. I'd bet you would be singing another tune if it WAS you, however.

And just because other presidents may or may not have done the very same thing is irrelevent. It does not make it right. Sort of like all those who knowingly drank poison because their leader, Jim Jones, did. All it got them was dead. Over 800 innocent men, women and children. All dead because they were just doing what their leader did. Think about it.

....let me see if i understand correctly some of the reasoning used by the Bush Derangement Syndrome crowd.....

National Security "leak" over Valerie Plame not so "covert" identity (and the resulting manufactured "scandal") = BAD!

National Security leak over digital surveillance involving known terrorist lines of communication (the people we are at war with) = GOOD!

....yep, i understand know......it's just the latest application of the "Say or Do ANYTHING That Will Help Regain Political Power" tactic.....

Yvonne, you wanted to know how I would feel if they were to wire tap me or investigate me. If I have done nothing wrong, why would I be worried. You can be worried if you want to, but I for one haven't heard this happening to anyone who hasn't done anything. I believe it would have been plastered all over the news if it had, with the way they feel about Bush. Why do you keep thinking it is illegal. Have the courts ordered the President to stop the pratice. No, all the arrantlesscourt ruling have supported the use of warrantless wire taps. Could it be that your personal feeling toward Bush is more than the security of your country. Think about that be fore you answer.

Bobby, please provide the statutes that allow the President or ANYONE else for that matter to ILLEGALLY wiretap, etc. ANYONE without a warrant?

Is this not the EXACT reason that the NSA began...to avoid the public court system (public notice) of surveillence?

Again, provide me with the statutes that what is being done is LEGAL and I will PUBLICALLY apologize to you and others. If no statute of law is provided...I will continually stand firm in my belief of the illegallity of these actions.

The difference between the Plame incident and this:

Plame, CIA employee (in some form)...leaking that information compromises the person.

ILLEGAL surveillence - public notified that the government is violating the law!

Shalom