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Symes
I dont know but we have done it before. We seemed to have ignored the terrorism committed by the jewish leaders prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948. And we now give them a nice allowance each year. And that palestinian family inside their home as it is being bulldozed by the israeli army while israeli tanks stand by may have a different view on what terrorism is.

I know these comments may set some off so I will let it be known now I dont support Hamas or what it stands for and see their rise to power as a major obstacle and problem in the Middle East.

But hey we opened the can of worms by pushing democracy in a region hoping and thinking we would get some peace loving government but we did this completely ignoring the reality that the many in the region are highly antiIsrael ,largely they either hate and/or distrust the United States(I think the last poll had most coutries in the ME up around 90%) and yet we seemed shock(or at least Bush seems to be) that we have Hamas in power for the Palestinians, hezbollah growing in Lebanon and the Islamic Brothers?? in Egypt who are alot things but definetly not pro israel or pro american.

We had to open these cans of worms.

Hamas won - get over it.

Hamas won without Supreme Cout intervention, btw

JDR, you glad Hamas won? Personally I am for one reason. I will demonstrate again, as in Afghanistan, the ineptitude of a terrorist regime to govern a country and reinforce to Americans the seriousness of terrorism. Even the Chicoms and the Russians are for pulling aid to Palestine now, imagine that!!

Hey Palestinians, be careful what you wish for...break out the burkas.

Hayes, glad you are back. I don't agree we opened the can of worms, it has been open for a long time. Now the jihadists control another state, this will be a long conflict.

Good Day Dan
My point is saying we have opened a can of worms is this. Bush has pushed hard to bring democracy to the Middle East as one of his more lasting reason as to why we went into Iraq. Now ón the surface it sounds great and as anyone who has enjoyed the benefits of a true democracy,ie not Russia, who could not support this being done.

But in the ME you have to move beyond the surface here. In most arab countries you have most of the population who are more likely anti-Israel and america and more likeyl to hoist a banner of bin laden as their role model. I dont view the current governments in the ME as acceptable but by putting preassure on them to be more open WE have opened the door wide open to allow those to come to power who we are currently fighting against in Iraq and hope to keep out of power. Egypt is a prime example. We preassured Barak into elections and instead of getting elected people who want an open society we find the Islamic Brotherhood?? gaining in strength.

We put the cart in front of the horse. We should have had a more long term approach first doing what was needed to turn the population in general less hostile to the west and israel. Now of course that is easier said than done and I would admit that easily.

You're right. Hamas won. And now that we know that a majority of the country supports terrorist organizations, we should have less problems bombing them all to hell.

Yellowdog
Great answer and we call them fanatics.

Dan:

I was playing with the "Bush Won, Get Over It Rhetoric".

I have no idea what to make of it ... but here are two thoughts:

1 - I agree that perhaps being in the hot-seat (read: now Hamas has to do something) will temper them ... we'll see, I have limited hope for that.

2 - It's fairly clear that we have "imposed" on the middle east the idea that Democracy solves all problems, and ther are a couple flaws with that concept: First, it takes a long wile for the mechanisms of democracy to meld - no one can be expected to do in months or years what it has taken others decades if not centurys to achieve. Second: Even as a working system, Democracy cannot solve all problems.

It's a bit like: Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Ok so Hamas won. Now what? Ignore them or starve them? Fight them or let them defeat themselves?

The history shows that democratic countries almost never make war on each other and tend to be prosperous. Therefore, elections appear to be what the doctor ordered for the maladies of the Middle East.

However, that combination has failed in the Middle East region. The first functional election in the Palestinian Authority has thrown up Hamas.

In December 2005, the Egyptian electorate came out strongly for the Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamic party, and not for liberal elements.

In Iraq, the post-Saddam electorate voted in a pro-Iranian Islamist as prime minister.

In Lebanon, the voters celebrated the withdrawal of Syrian troops by voting Hezbollah into the government.

Likewise, radical Islamic elements have done well in elections in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

What went wrong? The elections are bringing to power the most deadly enemies of the West. Why has a democratic prescription that proved successful in Germany, Japan and other formerly bellicose nations not worked in the Middle East?

It's not Islam or some cultural factor that accounts for this difference; rather, it is the fact that ideological enemies in the Middle East have not yet been defeated. Democratisation took place in Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union after their populations had endured the totalitarism until it became unbearable. By 1945 and 1991, they recognised what disasters fascism and communism had brought them, and were ready to try a different path.

Not so in the Middle East. There the totalitarian temptation remains powerfully in place. Muslims across the region -- with the singular and important exception of Iran, are drawn to the Islamist program with its slogan that "Islam is the solution". That has been the case from Iran in 1979 to Algeria in 1992, to Turkey in 2002, to the Palestinian Authority this week.

So what is the answer? Western countries need to show Palestinians that, like Germans electing Adolf Hitler in 1933, they have made a decision gravely unacceptable to civilised opinion. When and only when the Palestinian people get enough of the Hamas and their strong arm terror tactics that do nothing to endear them to civilized nations will they realize their mistake and put an end to terrorist run government organizations.

That's my nickles worth for tonite.

Morning MrP(as in it is morning here for me)
For me again your raise the results of our present attempt of creating democracies in the ME. But before I comment on that you made a comment that I hear often but am always struct but some small contractions. You are correct that up to now no democracy but I find it strange that the worlds two biggest democracies have historically not been the best of friends and even chosen allies contradictory to their beliefs. Our best friend in central asia is Pakistan and military dictatorship and Indias best regional friend is communist China. Also if you include Russia as a democracy then we,the US and Russia, still have enough nuclear weapons pointing at each other to still turn this planet into a nulcear wasteland. Not how true democracies should play with each other. BUT at least in my opinion Russia is about as democratic at this point as China is.

But to the problems you raise. We are getting what we sew here. I am sorry but if anyone took a truely hard look at the thinking of most arabs,what they want, how they see things; then none of these results should have surprised anyone. Bush and many sold the public that we would be welcomed with open arms and flowers in Iraq and sadly he was proven dead wrong and now he is selling the idea that we can bring democracies to the ME and get happy results and the same people who bought the first one are now buying this one and the current results should raise a major red flag to those that he may just be as wrong on this as he was on the first.

Also about Hamas.Again I dont condone or like what I see in them. I agree with you that they are a terrorists organization. But to many palestinians they are their best hope in standing up to the Israelis and fighting for their rights. To them they didnt go to the polls voting for a terrorists group but for hope.And as I wrote earlier who is a terrorists is depending on where you stand. If you ask many jews in the ME who is a terrorists you will get the expected answer Hamas and if you ask the arabs you will get the expected answer Israel.

I personally believe Hamas is a terrorists group who in the end will not serve the interests of the palestinians but I also just as strongly believe that Israel has done many acts of terrorism and human rights violation and as long as it does so the more moderate voices in the palestinians will be largely ignored.

Israel will not stop retaliating and they should not. As long as the Hamas and others like them continue to call for total destruction of Israel the fighting will go on. I will still stand on my comments that the Palistinian comman man will soon get tired of it all and will throw out the Hamas just to see if Israel stops retaliation. And they will.
We have seen this happening in Iraq as of recently where the comman individual on the street, no matter what religious party they are involved with are turning in the terriorist at a higher rate than ever before. They are growing tired of these who would keep them in servitude and the effort is bearing fruit. It has done so in the countries I named and is doing so in Indonesia, Bali, Phillipines and other places where these same groups (under different names) are killing civilians just to create chaos. AS long as they can create this chaos then people will be off balance never knowing what to expect but they WILL grow tired of it. The proof is in the pudding as they say, and it looks as if the bowl is dwindilling.