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Very good questions...I also wonder.

Carol, those are the same questions that I asked in the past two weeks. I still have not received a rational and logical answer; from a Muslim or anyone else for that matter!

Shalom

Oh the nuances of religion abound.

Have you ever looked at cartoons of George Bush from different cartoonists? None resembles the other, except for the large ears and smirk. Imagine if you were not from this country, how would you know who that is other than by the context in which he is being portrayed. I believe the same could be said for the Danish cartoon.

we're just not getting it !

Main Entry: cat·a·lyst
Pronunciation: 'ka-t&l-&st
Function: noun
1 : a substance (as an enzyme) that enables a chemical reaction to proceed at a usually faster rate or under different conditions (as at a lower temperature) than otherwise possible
2 : an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action

i defer to the # 2 definition. when you have a faith that inherently believes that those who are NOT muslims...are infidels...you already have one half of the needed ingredients to cause chaos - all that is needed is a catalyst...in this instance it was cartoons.....we are looking for rationale when i believe rationale has no part of the formula. the reaction of these extreme muslims defies logic and rationale....so quit trying to find some !

As to how is it known that they depict The Prophet, I guess the Danish paper said as much. Here is a link to a Washington Post article that appears to be written by the editor that published the cartoons, explaining why he did it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html

An excerpt:

"By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam. And I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out. The idea wasn't to provoke gratuitously -- and we certainly didn't intend to trigger violent demonstrations throughout the Muslim world. Our goal was simply to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter."

Buz, don't you find that some Christians consider Muslims infidels? Remember the Crusades.

I grew up in the boondocks (it was a great place, still love it) and everyone was Protestant. We were the odd balls because we were Quakers and many thought we were going to hell because we didn't baptise with water or take communion. There was a Catholic doctor in "town" and he had to travel 30 miles to attend worship services. We all thought he was strange and really wondered about his faith. I had never met a Jew or Muslim until I went to college, so I never thought about them.

We need to always be careful when we lump folks into groups. Not all "religious people" are good or bad. I believe God looks at the individual heart.

Not preaching to you, Buz, must making comments.

buz, while we have some differences on the specifics of this issue, I believe that the post made had some strong validity. What I especially like is the comment, ".....the reaction of these extreme muslims......" That is the point exactly....the ones causing this mayhem are the extreme sect of the religion, not the NORM!!

ALL groups, whether religious or not, have extreme ends that go against the norm of said group. However, today our society is so intimidated by the fear of what this extreme sect of the Islamic faith might do, that society is basically paralyzed.

Until our society, as a whole, can make some inroads with the more moderate Islamic people and they take back their faith from the extreme sect that has hijacked it, we can expect no less.

In some ways, I too could be like these extreme Islamic people. My Christian faith has been hijacked by extreme radicals, just as their faith has been! However, holding to my Peace Testimony, I seek peaceful resolution....which my Christian faith demands!

carol,
hello, who could forget the crusades !? you mentioned Christains in the same paragraph with the crusades..i believe the rcc were at the heart of the crusades and they do not represent Christianity imo. so essentially i cannot fit myself into that statement, even though i'm Christian.
i tried to qualify (darryl understood this) the muslims i was speaking about were the extreme segment of islam (not the norm), thereby hoping not to lump them all into the same group. i could not agree with you more that in the end only God (thankfully) has the opportunity to judge each of us. as darryl pointed out, any extreme faction of religion eventually hijacks the faith.
from what i can understand, true muslims hold a different view about slaying infidels, one which is more in line with fundamental Christian tenets. my only point originally was that trying to makes sense of what is happening over the cartoon thing is senseless....imho.
darryl, thanks for drilling down to the essence of my comment. and your comment..........
" today our society is so intimidated by the fear of what this extreme sect of the Islamic faith might do, that society is basically paralyzed. "
to me this is just another form of terrorism that we allow to be imposed upon us.....many here respect the muslims right to kill and destroy b/c they were offended....it is more noble to speak up and verbalize our discontent rather than to kill people ! i firmly believe that God is more concerned with the way we judge 'other' people moreso than the way we judge ourselves...again imo.

Carol and Buz,

You may remember READING about the crusades but you sure as heck don't REMEMBER the crusades. This is the 21st century. When were the crusades. We can do nothing to change the past. We can do everything to change the future. If you want to sit around and throw blame at people who are long dead and turned to dust, go ahead. I just don't see how it's productive.

ydog,
didn't mean to step on your tail......

" We can do nothing to change the past. "..........
" If you want to sit around and throw blame......"
" you sure as heck don't REMEMBER the crusades "...

i would suggest you go back and read many of your previous posts on any given subject and tell me that you have never spoken of things past and have never placed blame on anyone !! ?? i miss your point ? are you saying that one must personally exist in the era and have personal first hand knowledge of a subject before they can comment ? or are you saying that you must filter the value of our comments before they are valid ??
finally, to speak on current issues, in most instances it is beneficial to discuss past issues which usually cast light on any subject. again, sorry for stepping on your tail ?

Mr Robert Adcock, You don't see any resemblance. And yet so many other people see the similarity--a caricature is not meant to be like a serious portrait--why am I saying all this ??

Darryl, I like your comments and agree with you. We have to be more specific about whom we are speaking. I like everyone abhor the use of violence. Here is the tricky part, as I have said in most of my responses, violence seems to be contageous--we all use it alot of the time. We are using it now in Iraq and Afghanistan etc.
Why are we so adament about clobbering the use of violence and then slamming other people, their culture and their religion. I saw the movie, "Munich" several weeks ago and left with the thought that what most people want is a place in the "sun" where they can hang their hat, raise their children and worship the God of their understanding--and really nothing more. They, like we, I hope, want peace and mutual respect. The other things, we hear and see, in print or in conversation that smacks of something negative--- we really need to filter that stuff. We say that moderate Muslims need or should talk up etc. ,, well, how many of us do that today???There is plenty that we ought all to be shouting about--and please don't ask me what?? if you must, ok ?? We are quiet---I listen to the doers, those who do morally ethically good things and do risky things because then---"where there is smoke, there certainly is fire" and I respect that, and I furthermore listen.

Hey Buz,

Tell me why you think Catholics don't represent Christianity? I used to hear that when we moved to Greensboro in 1970, but haven't heard it in years.

yellowdog, I have told you I am OLD...maybe I do remember the Crusades...

as was stated, I was just referring to an event whose aim was to wipe out the "infidels"...

Good question, Dan...I wait to hear the answer.

Peace to you all.

Now Carol you can probably remember WWI, but NOT the Crusades.

As a lifelong Catholic, I'm not even offended by Buz's comment as I am secure in my faith. I also promise not to burn any embassies.

dan ,
for the sake of unity among believers, i don't believe this is the place for me to make statements concerning this issue. if you are interested in what i believe & why i made that statement, you are welcome to click on my name at the bottom and email me directly. what i say , i will defend with what i believe the scriptures says to me and to have a valid discussion you also must come prepared to use scripture to validate your point of view. when i share my viewpoint, in no way am i trying to persuade you that i am right, i only share what i believe.

But Buz, I must not be a Christian according to you. I like to keep the forum public, so if you are going to make statements like that in a public forum you should be prepared to explain them in public. Not only that, Carol is dying to know too!!

I am not a Biblical scholar, so I can't come armed with my Bible quotes. I just know that Jesus is at the heart of the Catholic Church and I believe that would make us Catholics Christian. In fact, we enact the Last Supper in every single mass, it is the crux of the mass. We celebrate the birth of Jesus on Christmas and the death & resurrection of Jesus on Easter just like anyone else.

We have been accused of worshipping false idols in the past, as the crucifix is prominently displayed in every Catholic church, so is the Blessed Mother and Joseph, so are the Stations of the Cross. These are simply symbols of our faith, we don't sit around on our knees and worship statues or images.

I have never in my life heard a Catholic claim that a Protestant isn't Christian. Some are not Christian-like, as are some Catholics, but it's interesting to hear your point of view. Please go ahead and share. No hard feelings and no burnt embassies.

Just kidding about the crusades, Dan. I don't even remember WWII. I do remember the Korean War simply because a church member was killed and I remember the guns being fired at the burial.

Since I am a Quaker and you are a Catholic, our methods of worship are like night and day. I think that the way we worship and what moves us is personal. I think the important thing is that we worship God in our own way and follow the most important instruction: Love God with all your heart and your fellow man as yourself. Maybe the hatred in so many comes from not loving themselves.

dan,
i appreciate your desire to discuss this in the public forum, but i feel bound by higher authority not to cause a fellow believer to stumble.
i do not purport myself to be a bible scholar but i do as the scripture suggests, i.e. " 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "
i commend you for your faith and encourage you continue your journey with God. i did not intend for this one small part of my comment to become the focal point. what i meant to convey was that many of the values that the rcc practice and preach, do not represent Christainity as i practice it, but this is no different than values of quakers or jehovah witness's which i do not agree or practice either. i believe you misunderstood me, i did NOT say you were not Christian, i said rcc did not represent Christianity to me imo. i apologize to any that i offended, i assure that was not my intent. dan i am entitled to believe as i believe and you are entitled to belive as you choose. it is a good thing that God is the judge, for i am a slave to the flesh and all the junk that goes with it. may your walk with God be fruitful.......

Nuff said Buz, thanks for the post, no need to apologize, I don't get offended easily. We all do have the right to believe or not believe as we wish, that is one of the great gifts of living in a free country. I agree with Carol that each of us has our personal relationship with God if we choose and that is what really matters IMO.

What faith do you adhere to Buz? Just curious.

dan,
i am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ - i am Christian.

"....that each of us has our personal relationship with God if we choose and that is what really matters IMO......"

i agree 100%....it is a relationship...not simply knowledge.

dan just as a point of interest, it was at 4:00 am this morning as i was in conversation with God that He guided me not to be confrontational over this matter....having you as a brother in Christ is much more important than my theology. have a great day.....

I have never in my life heard a Catholic claim that a Protestant isn't Christian. Some are not Christian-like, as are some Catholics....

Dan, you hit the nail on the head. "for by their fruits you shall know them." Matthew 7:20.

Buz---I've read everything here and we don't need to rehash. Your initial sentence did say:
".....rcc.......and they don't represent christianity." That's a type of communication we ought to look at. We say one thing and then say that we were misunderstood when we probably said what we meant in the first place; because Buz, when you said ".....rcc.....don't represent christianity"--you did not say "that's my opinion". So maybe what you initially said is what you really feel. And like Dan, I too am a Catholic, I am not offended. When I first came to NC from Miami, someone asked me "whether Catholics were Christian?"--For a while anyway, the Catholic Church was the main Christian Church until we had schisms etc. Luther, Calvin etc. This is why we need to be aware of what our views and beliefs really, put them non judgmentally out there for people to see/hear and let's give people space for their differences and let's also honestly communicate.
Instead, I'm afraid that we "all" globally rather than take the time to iron things out, to tolerate and make place for difference to the best satisfaction that we can, we would rather blow and bomb the crap out of each other.

It was a bit tedious, but we did clear the air a bit. And Buz, no one ought to say something in this public forum and then, when challenged, make a plea for privacy or whatever. once something is said---it's all open ballgame.

We all ought to meet sometime this summer and meet each other. I, the good "Christian" Catholic that I am, will bring wine and bread. That should cover most testaments; I unfortunately don't know if that would be acceptable to the Quakers, but I'm flexible and would accomodate any way I could. Fellowship is important to me these days. I'm 62 years old and half way to dieing. Dan, now that I know you are a fellow Catholic, I'm going to dissect every thing you say a little more critically. I'M ONLY KIDDING (I think).

JoeJoe's heading out.

Joejoe, glad to hear from a fellow Catholic. If we get together some may not take the wine so bring some grape juice as well. I never partake in the wine being the germaphobe that I am.

Thanks for your input, I asked Buz to make his comments public too, but realized he prefers not to, so no reason to beat that horse.

No, Buz, I'm not saying you can't comment on anything you want. Or Carol for that matter. What I'm saying is that Carol's post made it sound like the actions of the crusades somehow excuse current actions. What I am saying is that seems to put blame on any current Christian as if we need to apologize for something that happened centuries ago. I believe in personal responsibility for actions. I don't believe that Buz is responsible for anything that happened during the crusades while I do believe that current day Muslims who blow things up are completely responsible for their OWN actions.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

j.joe,

" Buz, when you said ".....rcc.....don't represent christianity"--you did not say "that's my opinion"

this is a cut & paste of my exact comment.........
" i believe the rcc were at the heart of the crusades and they do not represent Christianity imo. "
j.joe here is the interpretation of what i said...
i believe the rcc were at the heart of the crusades and they do not represent Christianity IN MY OPINION. so i believe your are incorrect when you state that i did not say 'that's my opinion" when i clearly said 'in my opinion'. at any rate j.joe, dan demonstrated understanding and a certain amount of compassion when he accepted the fact that i did not want to discuss this publicly. j.joe i admitted in this forum that i heard God guide me by telling me not to be confrontational. j.joe it will always be more important for me to obey God rather than satisfy your curiosity. j.joe who should i obey, God voice or j.joe's request to publicly discuss this ?

dan thank you for respecting and understanding my explanation.

ydog,
thanks for the clarification.

carol, dan, j.joe & others......
i hope you can appreciate the fact that God would not be glorified by me making public comments that could be construed as inflammatory. there are most likely things i practice in my faith that others would question or criticize and likely there are things that others pratice in their faith that i might question or criticize. actually if i could wind back time i would not have made that comment, but i cannot, so the next best solution is to forgive me for any offense i caused.i will try to measure my words more closely in the future.
grace and peace..........

Buz and YD, I was discussing the word "infidel" as in some say Muslims want to kill me because I am an "infidel". I was just pointing out that during the Crusades, non-Chrisitans were considered "infidels". Not defending anyone.

When I taught school, one thing I discussed with the kids was be careful what you put in print (you would not believe what they wrote in their journals which they knew I read...one wrote about "really p****** Mrs. Dunn off" and then wrote what he did. I simply mailed it to his mom. She handled it so well...still respect her.) Ok..that was off the subject, but is still fun to share. Thanks for the explanation...sure you meant that their actions did not represent Christianity, not that Catholics were not Christian.

Also, I do not believe I am responsible for sins committed in the past...I have never owned a slave, never taken land from Native Americans, never treated anyone with disrespect intentionally, etc. BTW, heard a Palestenian on NPR saying that the West owed them monetary support because they created Israel. WOW...few in power were even born then. Only blogers are Joe, Yvonne, and me I guess.

Joe, Quakers believe in moderation...no problem with the wine. Jesus made wine, so it's OK with me. Dan, is wine germy (sp?) Any of you play bridge?

Carol, wine itself is not germy, I enjoy wine, especially a good merlot. However the Catholic Church offers holy communion at every mass. We receive the body of Christ (a wafer of bread) and the blood of Christ (a sip from the chalice of wine). I do not partake in the wine, as everyone sips from the same cups and you may have had someone sip on that cup who has the flu, cold, etc. I wish they would do individual cups, but it is called communion after all.

Agreed with you on sins of the past. That is why I don't agree with blacks who are seeking reparations for slavery.

I have never played bridge. I remember my aunts and uncles playing as a kid. After a few drinks they would switch to poker :)

Understand now, Dan. I was ignorant about communion, but now I know "the rest of the story" Agree with you about germs.