News-Record.com

North was involved with selling weapons to Iran and channeling the money to support the contras. He was given immunity for his testimony. This does not mean he was innocent of anything no matter how many reversals of his charges. (Remember OJ was found innocent.)

Is it fair to hold this aganist him twenty years later? If you say no, then you should not be hypocritical enough to hold Chappaquiddick aganist Kennedy thirty six years later. How fair is it to forgive a man who, thru his actions, was responsible for killing many but withhold forgiveness from a man, thru his actions, killed one. And would you think either man should serve as a role model for the scouts?

My point is about hypocrisy and how it is the base for all this discussion about North, no matter who is discussing it.

There's probably a mstake here. There was no mention of who wrote this Counterpoint, other than the city where he/she lives. That's beside the point, and I'm sure it will be corrected.

But on to the actual letter content. The writer appears to have missed the point of Roberts' and many others' objections. If North was simply a famous Marine and nothing else, I seriously doubt that I would object to his participation in a Scout fundraiser. But we are all seen by others as the sum of what we have done.

And what is "Col Ollie" known for? Not heroism, though I expect he did many brave things in his life. Not fortitude or strength, though I don't doubt for a moment that he attained his station in the Marines with those qualities. No, he is known as a central figure in a scandal that stained a presdent's administration for acting outside the law. He's also known as a right-wing idealogue. These are the things that make Oliver North a household name.

They are also the things that he carries with him every time he speaks publicly. This is why it's less important what he may or may not say to an audience of wealthy supporters. His "baggage" is the thing that makes him inappropriate as an icon for Scouting. His appearance is a serious departure from the things the BSA used to stand for.

"Ollie attempted to assist in freeing from captivity U.S. citizens being held hostage in Lebanon. This seems like a worthwhile project, but it got Ollie into a political thicket. His efforts were thought by some to be a violation of a vague and somewhat senseless law enacted by a confused Congress."

Whoa. That's some serious revisionism right there.

Iran-Contra/Chappaquidick are not comparable.

Plain and simple Chappaquiddick was an drunken sot wrecking his car into 10 feet of water, failing to help the young woman out and then running away in the middle of the night while she drownen inside a vehicle with its rear-end sticking out of the water.

Iran Contra happened at the height of the Cold War with the spector of communism growing in Central America which was supported by the Soviet Union.

Iran was the lesser of two enemies at the time.

What North did was for his patriotic love of his country, misguided as it were.

What Kennedy did was for his narsasistic love of himself and his career.

Rosemary is a lightweight with one obsession in life: disdain for the president and occasionally a few others like Ollie North.

Don't believe me? Read Rosemarys column today about her shopping trip to New York City. Frankly I don't care about her trip, but this is indicitive of her obsession:

"As I rode down 5th Ave on a city bus the other day, passing the magnificent Metropolitan Museum of Art, Frederick Law Olmstead's Central Park, St. Patricks Cathedral, and Rockefeller Center, I thought of George W. Bush. At least for a moment.

Earlier that day I'd bough a copy of the NYT at my hotel and read a story saying that President Bush is not a sightseer. The headline read: "A Presidential Passage through India, Quickly".

The Times story said, "Mr. Bush has never been a sightseer, and his planned two days in India and one in Pakistan are typical of a president who visited the Great Wall of China in 30 minutes flat".

Ok back to Dan. Then Rosemary goes on about plays in NYC, how women dressed, and the rest of her normal drivel.

It appears that Liberal Hummer Envy (LHE), that illness that affects some liberals, has a sister illness, Bush Obsession Syndrome (BOS). I know one person on this blog who suffers tremendously from BOS. Don't worry, you are not alone, Rosemary has BOS in a bad way.

How can someone go on a shopping trip to NYC and sit there fretting that the president isn't into sightseeing? BOS, that's how.

Gee, maybe the president is one of the busiest men in the world, maybe he doesn't like to sightsee. Who the hell cares except the NYT, Rosemary and others suffering fron BOS?

Ok I'm ready for the chiming that I blindly follow the president. This has nothing to do with his policies. It's a wimpy N&R contributer (I use the term contributor loosely) who bores us with her little shopping trips and worrys about how much time a president spends at the Great Wall of China. BOS can do strange things to the mind.

Hate to tell you Hugh, but it was not the height of the Cold War.
North is a convicted criminal. End of Story.

As one who read the article mentioned, I did not find it vicious or an attack. Facts and opinions were given. If you disagree with her opinions, you should still accept the facts presented.

DD, How old were you in 1983-84? Diapers or Kindergarten? Once again you spout off on something you don't know about, or is this your interpretation of what you see on the History Channel which is what many of us lived?

Oh, and before you start in, I do not support Ted Kennedy either. Fortunately, he was not asked to address a Boy Sout fundraiser.

DD, I am with you, the mid to late 1980s was not the "height" of the Cold War. The USSR ceased to exist by 1989-1990. The Iran-Contra Hearings were about 1987 with actions that happened circa 1985. So, that time period was far from the "height" of the Cold War.

The "height" of the Cold war was approximately 1950-1975. After that, it was basically a stalemate. SALT basically helped to dismantle the Cold War and helped to thwart any potential of it turning "hot."

Shalom

Darryl, I know you guys hate to admit this but Ronald Reagan dismantled the Cold War, not SALT. You can split hairs about when the height of the war was, but I remember it very clearly and it was still continuing in the 1980's.

Reagan upped military spending and the Soviets couldn't keep up. He is the speaker of one of the most famous lines in modern history "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall." Remember SDI? The American media and other critics claimed it wouldn't work. Maybe they were right but the Soviets sure as hell thought SDI would work!! Reagan was accused of being stupid and that he was going to start WWIII.

He proved the naysayer and appeasement crowd wrong and defeated the Soviet Union. As a result, freedom was spread throughout the region. I really miss the man.

Darryl, I guess you forgot about the Korean Air flight 007 the Soviets shot down in 1983, the Cuban communist influence in Grenada, or the 1984 high level Soviet Nuke alert?

Y'all are playing semantics over the word "height". 1983-84 may not be as sexy as 1963 or Dr. Strange love but it was as real and dangerous as any other time.

The cold war ended in 1975?
Is this what is being taught in the public school systems now? I was in Berlin in 1974 and I recall visiting the Berlin Wall. I DON'T recall any plans to dismantle it the next year.

This is 'liberal revisionists wishing'.

Neo, history must be rewritten, otherwise liberals would have to give credit where credit is due: Ronald Reagan. Darryl claims the Cold War was just a stalemate after 1975. I will agree with him that it was a stalemate during the Carter years, but Reagan decided to win it and did. Remember the "Evil Empire"? The left went bonkers over that statement!!

Dan, I had forgotten about the "Evil Empire". The left did go nuts over that.

What a man he was. Reagan shoved the Soviets into a corner and then helped them to save face and get out.

One of my vivid childhood memories was hearing about a couple of East Germans that tried to flee and got caught in minefield. One exploded a mine and the guards shot another and left him to die. He languished for a couple of days in plain view of one of the network's news camera and the radio gave hourly reports.

Contrast that to the 1989 news reports of people being able to cross the border of Hungary and Yugoslavia without there being any conflict, then a few short months later the Wall falling. The Iron Curtain is gone. Churchill would be proud.

"North is a convicted criminal. End of Story."

Nice revisionist history. Why am I not surprised that implication is in wide spread use among those who dislike North?

Good posts, Hugh and Dan.

Dan, hugh, neocon; I love you guys! I seldom read your posts without having a good laugh.

It still amazes me at how simple statements can be taken and totally disregarded and commented upon. I am guessing that reading comprehension is not a strong suit. I could be wrong though.

I am through with this one since it is EXTREMELY CLEAR that the posts are not comprehended and/or read.

Shalom

Can Hugh, Neocon and I enroll in the Darryl Course of Reading Comprehension in Order to Better Comprehend Revisionist History? Is it offered at UNC-G, GTCC? What is the tuition?

Darryl, the entire context of your post was that Iran/Contra events took place in 85' and in your opinion that wasn't the height of the cold war.

I have a difference of opinion on the word "height".
and you call it a comprehension problem.

The events of 83-84' were the most recent events prior to and set the stage for actions taken by our govt. in 85'. You might consider the Soviets shooting down a commericial airliner to be of no m consequence and dismiss Ex-Soviet officers saying 1984 was the time they were the most scared that there would be an actual war, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a very serious and potentially lethal time between the USSR and USA.

Again, what part of comprehending that don't you understand?

Oops, forgot you've bailed on the thread.

""North is a convicted criminal. End of Story."

Nice revisionist history. "

Bubba, which part of that is in some way revised?

Dan,
Jay Bennish is offering an excelent course in "revision comprehension". His course is focusing more on modern history than the cold war era. Still I'm sure it have some useful pointers that will help us all understand Darryl's pov.

have= has

Denz, conviction overturned. End of story.

For all you Oliver North apologists, did you read this one:
In 1994, North lost a bid in Virginia as a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate. Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia endorsed Marshall Coleman instead of North. One reason may be that just before the election, former first lady Nancy Reagan informed the press that North had lied to her husband in discussions about Iran-Contra. North's candidacy was the subject of a 1996 documentary, "A Perfect Candidate."---From U.S. History website

If you really loved Ronald Reagan, you would have contempt for Oliver North.

Darryl and Denz,
One objection that you cannot overcome is ignorance and it is prevalent on here!

And from Wikipedia:
Essentially, North's convictions were overturned because he had been granted limited immunity for his Congressional testimony, and this testimony was deemed to have influenced witnesses at his trial.
*********
Mr. Produce,
Oliver North is a convicted criminal.
His perjury usurped the United States Constitution, unlike the one that caused marital embarassment resulting in Impeachment. Of Course the "Clinton Haters" will just jump all over that......
***********
Darryl & Denz,
With the folks who post regularly, I am reminded of a line from Shakespeare, "Tomorrow and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace from day to day.."

"Denz, conviction overturned. End of story."

Fair enough. Do you believe that he was wrongfully convicted on charges that he lied to Congress, shredded relevant documents, took bribes, etc?

But hey, whatever floats your boat. Call him a hero and have him come talk at your next meeting, no skin off my nose. I just don't buy the hero bit.

Having lived through Dr. Strangelove Times - as a school kid we did Nuc' drills as often as fire drills - I disagree "Iran Contra happened at the height of the Cold War" - not by a country mile.

Having lived through the Cuban Missle Crisis, the also I disagree the Iran Contra was "the spector of communism growing in Central America." The Central America Conflict was mear saber rattling political BS - about as dangerous as Venezuela today. Of course the real beauty of the Iran Contra scandle was America was supporting both sides - where did you think Saddam got those Chemical Weapons we KNEW he had?

Kennedy is / was / will always be narsasistic - and that's about the nicest word I can come up with!

I agree what North did was for his patriotic love of his country, arguable misguided - but when you're in power, reality changes.

A Bushy White House aid, quoted by Suskind:

"You guys are in what we call the reality-based community, [people who] believe solutions emerge from ... study of discernable reality."

"That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality ... we'll act again, creating new realities. We're history's actors ... and you will be left to just study what we do."

btw: It may be "Common Knowledge" that Reagan's military spending "Tore down the Berlin Wall", but without a doubt the ineffecient and tired soviet economy, hit with the chaos caused by perestroika, did at least as much.

Reagan Tearing Down the Wall has as much credibility as Clinton Creating the Internet Boom - mostly it was the luck of being in office at the right time.

JDR, our increase military spending forced the Soviet Union to compete militarily, and that further weakened their inefficient and tired economy to collapse. Please tell me Carter would have had the same effect and I've got some swamp land to sell you.

By the way Clinton did create the Internet boom thanks to Al Gore inventing the Internet ;-)

Overturned is overturned no matter the circumstances Denz and deac.

Just for your information I thought and still think the Clinton deal was a waste of time also at least on the sex deal. If I had been married to his wife I probably would have done the same thing. Hillary can have his record expunged if she gets to be president.

And deac, you will learn one of these days not to lump me in with any group. Don't know why you insist. Must be another one of your obsessions.

Legally speaking, you are correct Mr. P. The point being, overturned does not equate innocence. From my perspective, these are worlds apart. One has to do with deals and legaleze jargon while the other deals with truth.

In truth, North was guilty as charged. You may defend him but that does not change the fact his guilt makes him an unacceptable icon for the boy scouts. That is fact if you believe the boy scout code of conduct espouses truth and honor.

There are always two sides to any issue. We all have to weigh the facts and decide for ourselves which side we support. If you want to give Ollie a pass because he was a marine, displayed bravery and loved his country, that is your choice. However, there are those who believe he broke the law, perpetuated an injustice and showed contempt for the legal system by shredding documents, lying, etc.

And that is the end of the story, all imho.

The only thing I defend Yvonne is what the law said.The case was overturned. Like it or not, that's the law. Lot's of things in the law that I don't always agree with, but it is the law and until it is changed, which is doubtful after a couple of hundred years, that's the way it reads. As I said in an earlier post he and others who have been tried and convicted have gone on to do much better things in life and it's best to bury the past and not go "diggin up bones". You know, like the N&R does constantly on their favorite issue?

Oliver North is no hero.

He was/is a criminal.

Those that think Oliver North is a hero must think the White House Plumbers, Spiro Agnew and Randy "Duke" Cunningham were also heroes. The "Dukestir" WAS a hero until he whored himself out to the lobbyists.

Mr. P,
Oliver North discredited all the great groups he has been a part of, by his actions.
I hope he was not a member of the American Legion, the great group that sponsored me at Boys' State many, many years ago!

Let's just take a look at what this evil, wicked, mean, and nasty partisan hack has contributed to his country:

"Oliver L. North is a combat decorated marine, a #1 best-selling author, the founder of a small business, an inventor with three U.S. patents, a syndicated columnist, and host of "War Stories" on Fox News Channel; yet he claims his most important accomplishment as being "the husband of one and the father of four."
North was born in San Antonio, Texas, graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, and served 22 years as a U.S. Marine. His awards for service in combat include the Silver Star, the Bronze Star for Valor, and two Purple Hearts for wounds in combat.

Assigned to the national security council staff in the Reagan administration, Colonel North was the Unites States Government's Counter-Terrorism Coordinator from 1983-1986, was involved in planning the rescue of 804 medical students on the island of Grenada, and played a major role in the daring capture of the hijackers of the cruise ship Achille Lauro. After helping plan the U.S. raid on Muammar Qaddafi's terrorist bases in Libya, North was targeted for assassination by Abu Nidal, the infamous terrorist found dead in Baghdad in August, 2002. His award-winning combat coverage, while embedded with U.S. Marine and Army units for Fox News during Operation Iraqi Freedom, won international acclaim.

He is the Author of: Under Fire, One More Mission, War Stories-Operation Iraqi Freedom; and three novels: Mission Compromised, The Jericho Sanction and The Assassins. All of his books are New York Times' best-sellers.

North is also the founder of Freedom Alliance, a foundation which provides scholarships for the sons and daughters of service members killed in action."

Here is the likely topic of colonel north's talk at the Scouts event.

• "Family, Faith, and Freedom"

"In spite of his many accomplishments, this television and radio commentator, best-selling author, founder of a small business, and inventor who holds three U.S. patents counts his most important accomplishment as being "the husband of one and the father of four." He speaks candidly about balancing the professional demands of a career with family obligations, faith, and the civic responsibilities demanded by a free society."

Nah, those Scouts (and guests) wouldn't benefit from listening to a man like him give a talk on subjects like that, would they?

Why, by golly, it just might counter some of the stuff we've been teaching them in our Government School System! We can't have that!

Clap, clap, clap!

Bubba just learned to cut and paste!