News-Record.com

I couldn't agree more, N.R. Unfortunately, unless you own a major business and make tens of millions of dollars per year, your opinion doesn't count. Politicians and their cronies make even more money by using illegals. So as long as they want illegals here, they will let illegals come here with no fear of deportation. It's called corruption of the American political system. And we, the citizens/voters, are allowing it to grow from infancy to adulthood.

Bush met with Vincente Fox to find a solution to getting more of Fox's people into the US leagally instead of asking Fox why his country is such an outhouse that the masses seek to flee north. By offereing a US immigration solution instead of presurring Fox to fix the problems that cause his people to flee, Bush caves and cowers and basically tells the American people to bend over and grab their ankles, like it or not.

Here's a perspective -

Audio (starting about 10 minutes in ....):
http://www.fair.org/audio/counterspin/CounterSpin033106.mp3

Written (click "Immigration and the Middle Class", left side, first one down):
http://www.drummajorinstitute.org/

SUMMARY: Immigration policy should be " .. connected to the larger conversation about America's squeezed middle class and those striving to attain a middle-class standard of living."

MY OPINION - Most popular proposals and discussions have us all Racing to the Bottom.

Yuck.

News article in paper this morning says just how dang PC we have become in regards to illegals.
Colorado students are suspended for waving American Flags in protest of illegal Mexicans waving Mexican flags at their school. Mexican's block traffic for hours in Calif and Colorado while marching and waving Mexican flags and shouting in Spanish. Mexicans walk, American's get kicked in the teeth. What the heck does that tell you about the situation in this country?
Gov. Bill Richardson(D) of NMex wants to shut down the boarder because his state is being overun with illegals. On the other hand John McCain (R)Arizona running for president,Ted Kennedy (D) Mass. sitting around waiting for retirement and drawing a pay check, wants to open the doors and make them all welcome and allow millions more to flood this country. Go figure!
Maybe McCain should be governor of his state for a while and let Richardson be a senator and Kennedy just ,well, just go away, and perhaps a new direction could be found for this problem.
Sad dang situation indeed.

This letter bothers me. I agree that something needs to be done about illegal immigrants, however, you have to consider that if my state, California, didn't have illegal aliens and probably in other states [now including NC] there would not be anyone to harvest the crops, etc. The writer's statement that they are dirty and bring disease is just plain old bigotry. The immigrants I know, both documented and non-documented, are not dirty and have a better work ethic than most native-born americans I know. I think immigration needs to be regulated so we can at least know who is coming to our country and am not opposed to guest workers with proper documentation. I think our borders need more security especially considering the fact that some terrorists traveled easily across our border with Canada. Regarding the writer of the LTE, I think she needs to rethink her positions. If she is willing to pay substantially more for her food, I guess that's her right. To call immigrants dirty and diseased is just plain wrong and hateful.

Wow, old Satan better pull out his thermals because I think it is going to be getting cold down there! I am finally agreeing with Yvonne.

Hugh, good point. As I have stated it will be this issue that brings the Republicans down, lucky though the democrats aren't doing much better with it either.

By the way has everyone called, wrote or emailed our Senators Burr and Dole? I read an article that stated Burr would not rule out an amesty program. I contacted his office. I was informed that when a politician cross the border into DC that it is mandatory that they leave there backbone at the door! Ok actually his staff didn't have a postion until I told them mine. Here is the article with email and phone numbers. I encourage everyone to call and let them know your postions. http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13155

Mr. P,
Richardson is the Governor of New Mexico, not Arizona.

“The writer's statement that they are dirty and bring disease is just plain old bigotry.”

I disagree. As far as being dirty, where in the letter is that stated? However when it comes to disease, they do bring it in. I have read several stories about a rise in TB. However when looking for a link I found this story that names even more diseases like Leprosy. “Leprosy, also known as Hansen's disease, was so rare in America that in 40 years only 900 people were afflicted. Suddenly, in the past three years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy.”

“If she is willing to pay substantially more for her food, I guess that's her right.”

I don’t know about her, but I would be willing to pay $10 for a head of lettuce. I figure I would come out cheaper in the long run. Aren’t we really pay more for our food anyways when you add it all in. We pay their healthcare, welfare, education to their kids’ etc. etc. At least with having to pay more for food wouldn’t I at least have the option not to buy. Now I have no options when it comes to providing for lawbreakers.

“To call immigrants dirty and diseased is just plain wrong and hateful.”

Again, where did the letter writer state they were dirty? As for being wrong and hateful about them bringing disease, how it is hateful when it is the truth?

I forgot to put the link to the qoute of Leprosy. Here is the article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

Gee Whiz! I wasn't aware of the fact that I have been conversing with Native Americans all this time in the N&R blogs. I thought you all were just like me and your ancestors whether first, second, third generation had all been immigrants from some place else. Oh, and I also thought that your ancestors just like mine had been accused of bringing in “diseases, crime and taking jobs away from "needy" Americans” for low 'scab' wages. Wow! may I say that this Russian/German/Welsh/English granddaughter of immigrants is really honored and proud that you august Native Americans would allow little old me to join in your discussions on this blog. Thank you ever so much!

BrendaBee

I don't know about your ancestors but mine came here legally. Not only that but they came to this county to be a part of this county. Hence the reason I speak English and wave the American flag, as opposed to the German,Scottish,Irish flag. They were proud to be American. They abided by the laws of this county. Can you say the same for all the illegals? Oh wait hence the term illegals because they are just that breaking the law. Kind of like cutting in line before all the others. Also since you don't seem to have a problem with lawbreakers might I suggest that you provide for them too, so maybe my children and I don't have to.

Oh and Brenda as far as the jobs, yeah that $80,000 yr job the illegal accused rapist had in WS how many Americans do you think turned down that one? One of those jobs we just don't want huh? Or have you talked to any labors like painters, remodelers, construction workers. I suppose they don't want those jobs either huh? I'm sorry I guess those TEMCO workers who were fired or laidoff, just didn't really want those jobs either, hence the reason illegals needed to be brought in to work on our aircraft. Yeah your right they are just swell people who are helping us all out. Who are so proud to be American they are marching with American flags. They would never think to take the American flag down raise the Mexican flag and then turn the American flag upside down, now would they? Thanks for clarifing that for me.

Correction, make that a $44,000 year job. But least we forget he also had a$123,000 federal housing loan, guess us Americans don't need one of those either.

One more point Brenda, when my ancestors came over there was no welfare, medicaide, free education, WIC, food stamps, housing loans etc. etc. They did it on their own. Can you say the same for the illegal immigrants today?

BrendaBee,

Might I remind you that when our ancestors came to America, they came prepared to make their own way. They didn't get off one of those boats with their hands outstretched into a government pocket. They worked and earned the right to live here and call this new land their own.

Illegals are sucking this country that our forefathers created dry. They are breaking the laws of the land to do it. But our government does not want to punish them for breaking the law like they would a US citizen. The want to aid and abett them for breaking the law by giving them amnesty.

We are not talking about folks who enter the country legally and seek to blend into our society. We are talking about people who break the law and get rewarded for it. No amount of sarcastic comments from you can change that fact.

I work at a hospital in a town that is over 60% hispanic. (Their web site will tell you about 30% but it was published in our local paper after the 2000 census.) I see, first hand, some of the billions of dollars we spend on healthcare alone for illegals while US citizens go lacking. I see subsidized housing, food cards (stamps), free healthcare, free schooling, free lunches, free assistance left and right for illegals. I see jobs that Americans would do and do better go to illegals because the employer does not have to pay minimum wage or give benefits to illegals. I see illegals snicker and poke fun at the ignorance of the American government, like they have pulled one over on us (and they have).

I could write a book about the abuses aganist the American people by illegals. So don't expect a lot of sympathy for illegals from me.

Trish,

Thank you for providing the link for the email and phone numbers for Dole and Burr. The first thing I did was send them an email. The phone call will come next.

BTW, it's getting colder for satan by the minute. I agree with your posts on this subject also.

What did they say about the Acorn when it grew up?

WOW - That's a Big-a-Tree!

N.R. Smith,
Your Republican run corporations disagree with you. They want more and more illegals to not only run their factories but to nanny their children and groom their yards. They just love the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" model that is advocated by many on this blog. They see Mexican families doing just that, and they just don't understand why so many are upset about it!

It's a fine line - but I suggest look inside your feelings and separate bigotry from reasoned objections. There is clearly a bit of both in many of you.

Curious: Are the ancesters of slaves "legal"? Were the original low-wage workers "legal" immigrants?

There is an old [wacky] part of the Constitution that says anyone born here is automatically a citizen. CHANGE IT.

The added medical cost is a real issue, but the aledged drain on Social Services is a red herring.

The ONLY reason immigrants come is Jobs. Make it a formidable crime to hire an illegal - and the pace of folks walking across the border will seriously slow down. REQUIRE IT.

Regardless: Be prepared to make your kids do dishes - it's good therapy anyway. Be prepared to mow your own lawn - I do mine - don't love doing it but rationalize it as good exercise. You might also want to learn how to Drywall, and behead your own chickens - both of which I can do and have done, thank you.

http://thewideawakes.org/images/bilde.jpg

By the way - wasn't all this Settled via the I-9 Form created under Reagans Immigration Reform and Control Act (1986)

Also Curious: How do folks "know" their ancestors came here legally?

"Prior to 1820, the federal government of the United States made no effort to require lists of immigrants arriving in the country. Indeed, before the Revolutionary War (1775-1783) there was no federal government to make such a request. Hence control of immigration was left to the original colonies.

"Inasmuch as these were British colonies, and close to 80% of the white immigrants before 1790 came from British countries, there was no need to record these arrivals."

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/ushisgov/themes/immigration/laws.htm

... back to the Rock Garden.

Wow Trish & Yvonne agreeing on something. Also Deacon & me agreeing on something. You are right Deac, corporations want cheap labor that illegals provide. I do some work in food processing plants, the population is usually at least 50% hispanic. They are hard workers, no doubt about that, but they know how to use the system as Yvonne aptly describes.

This is not a Republican/Democratic issue, it is an American issue. Neither party is doing much about the problem.

As I repeated in another recent blog: Only in America can you be here illegally and hold demonstrations demanding rights from our country in Spanish while waving foreign flags.

"By the way has everyone called, wrote or emailed our Senators Burr and Dole? "

It won't matter. They're too busy with fundraisers, lobbyist dinners, hair salon appointments, house shopping and general primping to be able to pay any attention to the state of NC.

I agree with JDR on his comment about targeting those who do the hiring. They know what they are doing and they know when they are hiring someone illegally, without them illegal immigrants would have nothing to come here for, lets severely punnish those who hire illegals who get caught (this goes for Walmart to the restaurant owner to the construction business).

I also want to add that personally I have no problem with the immigrants themselves, yes they are here illegally, but from a human perspective I cannot say I wouldnt try and find work in a neighboring country if my family was living in squalor. I do not see them as disease carrying,dirty horrible people like some do(maybe because I work with the children in the school system everyday, and they most certainly are not..although it is quite obvious that there is a drain on the educational system as a result of the large numbers)because I do not need to demonize them personally to disagree with their presence. They are people and I feel for their situation back home, but we cannot handle such large numbers of immigrants. Immigration can and often is a good thing for America, but not when it is millions of undocumented, illegals coming here. We must know who is here and who is not, bottom line. We cannot sacrifice our citizens livelihoods and government expenditures for immigrants, not because of how we percieve them or their actions,or because we do not sympathize, but because it just isnt possible to do and meet the needs of American Citizens.

I wanted to clarify that Legal Immigration is a good thing when done right.....not ever a good thing when illegal. Hope everyone is enjoying the day and like Dan noted, its pretty crazy, but everyone is agreeing:)

Hugh....all too true, but that has and will continue to be the case, sadly!

Hugh,
You are so right about Burr and Dole. They are as worthless as teats on a man!

No more Sam Ervin, B. Everett Jordan, Frank Porter Graham or Luther Hodges types around this state. They were not only constituent friendly, they were real people! Dole is a phony and Burr finally found an opening he could gain support from the GOP.

Thanks for the web link to Burr and Dole. I have e-mailed them both my comments on this issue. :)

Deac: Gov. Bill Richardson(D) of NMex

That is what I said.
Now it may have gotten a little bit confusing when I said that Bill should be in the Senate and McCain should be the Governor of his State Arizona ( so as to get the feel of the heat from the folks at home in a real and upclose way on this issue.)
I know Bill Richardson well as he heads up the Democrat Governors Association and is heading up the drive to elect a pot full of democrat governors in 06. We swap e-mails on occassion but most of them come from this Administative Assistant. Lots of good conversations with both. At least they listen more than some others do.
Thanks for noticing and at least being polite with your responce. Hope it will remain in this fashion.

Do not forget that Bill Faison of Caswell County wantss illegals to have in state tution . Taking saets away from NC students. Va. newspapers carried this story. (have a copy of it) The NC papers would not even print LTE about it.

I agree, Burr is useless. We recently sent a letter to his office on an issue and received one of the "form letter" replies. This didn't suit the wife so she called and evidently got the "form letter reply on the phone, the text that sounds like they are just reading it from a script. So she pops and e-mail and follows with a phone call. Same old story. Then she told them to not count on her vote. 3 days later a letter came all apology, wology and a phone call from the office. I answered and told they were too late, they had lost two votes. Long silence...............click. and the click came from my end.
Lord what is the world coming too. Yvonne agreeing with Trish, and me agreeing with DD. Help us all.

I just got in from a trip and sat down to read the N&R. I got to this letter. I read it. I read the responses. I rubbed my eyes and read again.

I couldn't believe what I saw.

Yvonne and Trish?

DD and Dan?

Huh????

And to top it off....I agree with everyone!

What in the.....????

Oh yeah.....It was April Fool's Day!!!

Dang!! You all and the N&R really got me!!!

Here's the lead for the story mrp mentioned.

LONGMONT, Colo. (AP) - Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag - as well as flags from other countries - amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.

According to the story, this temporary school policy was enacted in order to keep something larger from happening.

"but I suggest look inside your feelings and separate bigotry from reasoned objections. There is clearly a bit of both in many of you."

JDR, can you define or further explain where you feel that “many of you” have bigotry (I am interpreting this to mean bigots)?

"Are the ancestors of slaves "legal"? Were the original low-wage workers "legal" immigrants?"

Yes in my opinion they were. They were legal in the sense that slavery was legal at the time, same with all the criminals sent over from England.

However the whole argument about ancestors and “a nation of immigrants” is a mute point. Roughly 85% of the people in America today, were born here. More to the point if we are going to use this as a reason for open borders then shouldn’t we also go back and use every law, moral, and value from the 1700’s? Can we dump the Constitution and be ruled by The Articles of Confederation instead, because that is what America was built on. Better yet, why don’t we go all the back and just become a colony of England again? I do not understand the whole argument because your ancestor was an immigrant then we now should have open borders. Heck why don’t we just let everyone in, why have borders at all, let’s just get rid of them and make do. Isn’t that what this argument is stating? Can you or Brendabee clarify this for me?

“The ONLY reason immigrants come is Jobs.”

I couldn’t agree more with you.

“Regardless:” Actually JDR this isn’t a problem for me. However this is actually a red herring. Do you actually believe that Purdue is going to close down all their factories and leave or do you suppose they will either 1) raise wages to hire legal workers or 2) find a way to lower the cost of production. Here is a good article on that: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/21/AR2006032101146_pf.html

"ow do folks "know" their ancestors came here legally?"

I know from family history/family trees when my ancestors arrived. But regardless I am legal and was born here does that mean I am not entitled to an opinion? Does this mean that we should do away with borders altogether?

"WOW - That's a Big-a-Tree!"

Please clarify this JDR. I want to hear your reasons/explanations for bringing out the "B" word.

"It won't matter"

I agree somewhat Hugh. However I do feel that politicians live in a different reality then the rest of us. I can see Dole and Burr reading the news/seeing the marches and think "wow everyone must feel like that". If the silent majority does not speak up the loud minority will win. It just amazes me that the politicians have no clue on this issue. For example, I get those letters from Dole, Frist etc. Surveys they say, we want to know your opinion and then at the end of the survey, send money and we will be sure to look at this. In red ink on every issue I write "illegal immigrations" and send it back with nothing. Have been doing this I know for 2 years. I finally quite even opening them. Then the other day I got another one, opened it just to see if immigration even made it into the "survey". Nope not even a issue. I get the calls to donate and tell them everytime, not another dime until something is done about immigration. So yep it probably will not matter but at least if you call or email someone is working for the salary you are paying them!

"Oh yeah.....It was April Fool's Day!!!"

LMAO, good one Joe! I'm still smiling over that one. That's too good.

Trish: I'm not gonna pick on others, but start with the LTE: "Where they are allowed in, they bring disease, crime and take jobs away from the needy, etc."

Then, since you expressly asked, I'll pick on you a bit:

Your link: "the increasing number of illegal aliens coming into the United States is forcing the closure of hospitals" - framed as "spreading previously vanquished diseases " ... but when you read the article - it states the real issue as "non-reimbursed tax on the system."

Raising costs - a lot. Spreading Disease - a little. Bringing down America's Premier Health System? Not as an exclusive mechanism.

How about: "I don't know about your ancestors but mine came here legally." Really? When? It sure sounds "Holier Than Thou". Keep in mind many are doing the same as our ancestors did - trying to get a better life for themselves and their family. Laws have changed, but the motivation for your ancestors was not more moral nor more honorable.

Then there's: "They abided by the laws of this county. Can you say the same for all the illegals?" So crime is comitted exclusively by illegals, and all legals are fully law abiding? I'm sure you'll find a much higher percentage of "law abiding" illegals than legals - cause they have a lot more to lose.

"When my ancestors came over there was no welfare, medicaide, free education, WIC, food stamps, housing loans etc. etc. They did it on their own. Can you say the same for the illegal immigrants today?"

The cost of Education is legit', as is Medical Care, but show me the proof of welfare, medicaide, WIC, food stamps, housing loans etc. - cause I think you're blowing smoke.

===
Hues of bigotry have recently surfaced on other threads related to this topic. I see more prejudice around here than many other areas of America I've lived in. That's my real life observation. I was asking folks to do a self examination and restrict comments accordingly, but am sure most will diss' the request.

Here's another old joke:

They used to make Blacks ride in the back of the bus until medical studies proved more serious injuries from traffic accidents happened to those sitting in the front.

One final item - and no point - ever - have I advocated for Illegal Immigration.

I'm also not a big fan of spending - wasting - a few billion to build a stupid wall.

It's clear many coming here have offered great value to our country - after all, none of us speak Iroquie - but I'm a conservative and believe it should be done legally, and slowly, with respect for all - and my first priority is wacking those that hire the people crossing the border in an inappropriate manner. Then change the Anchor Baby laws, etc.

No Supply of Jobs = No Illegal Imigration - pretty simple really - as long as Americans are really ready to pay the true price - and I think we're ready.

Iroquie = Iroquois

Yea Joe, strange how it only had an effect on kids waving the American flag and not those waving the Mexican and other flags. Same thing happened in Calif. as well. To dang PC for my taste. Folks need to wake up. You want to be an American, put away the flag of where ever you came from and take it out for only special occassions, like holidays and get yourself an American Flag. If you don't like the American Flag, then leave and go back to what ever country you like the flag of. The old saying, When in Rome do as the Romans do. Same same, When in America be an American or bye bye , adios or whatever word you want to use. Just leave.

Thank you Mr. Rockefeller, You stated my views superbly. I was just too angry to continue with this thread, so did my bit of sarcasm and got off.

"Where they are allowed in, they bring disease, crime and take jobs away from the needy,"

Again how was the letter writer being a bigot? Mexicans, illegals, Hispanics? Which JDR or did she offer up an opinion as well as the truth. Whether you or any one else wants to believe it they do bring disease. How could they not it’s not like they actually get shots like our kids do, true or false? Take jobs away, as you have stated how many lawn care business are not around because of illegals or construction workers, road crews, drywall, painters etc. We hired a guy to redo our kitchen and he basically said he only does it as a side job now, his business went under because he could not compete will illegals. So is that one true or false. Heck right in your own backyard, accused rapist working a $44,000 yr job are you saying he didn’t take that away from a legal person. I know I sure would have worked that job. Crime how many cases of drunk driving has arisen from illegals. Didn’t this paper just run a couple of stories on that? Rape, murder? So do they bring in addition crime? Well again an illegal in your own backyard accused of a couple of rapes. So would that one be a true or false?

So again I ask you point out where you can accuse someone of being a bigot just because they expressed their opinion. Aren’t you actually being a bigot to those of us that don’t agree with you right? Same difference. In other words attack the opinions but leave the whole “you’re a bigot because I disagree with you" at the door.

"but when you read the article - it states the real issue as "non-reimbursed tax on the system."

Hmm which begs the question, did you read the whole article JDR you did you read the beginning paragraph and then formed your opinions. Actually the article also stated: “In fact, the increasing number of illegal aliens coming into the United States is forcing the closure of hospitals, spreading previously vanquished diseases and threatening to destroy America's prized health-care system, says a report in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons.” It further went on to state: “In addition, the report says, "many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease." It then went on to say on this one part (because they did list 3 things closing hospitals, disease and health-care system). “TB was virtually absent in Virginia until in 2002, when it spiked a 17 percent increase, but Prince William County, just south of Washington, D.C., had a much larger rise of 188 percent. Public health officials blamed immigrants. In 2001 the Indiana School of Medicine studied an outbreak of MDR-TB, and traced it to Mexican illegal aliens. The Queens, New York, health department attributed 81 percent of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ascribed 42 percent of all new TB cases to 'foreign born' people who have up to eight times higher incidences apparently, 66 percent of all TB cases coming to America originate in Mexico, the Philippines and Vietnam."

So either the Journal report and the CDC are bigots and illegals do not spread disease or maybe this shows that they do.

Now I linked this article to prove using the leprosy to show yes they bring disease. Actually it was the first one I came across. I do know there was been an outbreak of TB (new strain) in AZ. I happen to listen to a radio station out of there. I was looking for that article, however I just don’t have the time to waste, used the first one. So JDR is it your theory that illegal immigrants do not bring disease with them?

“It sure sounds "Holier Than Thou".

So since you feel that I sound Holier than thou, now that makes me a bigot. Funny I think a couple of people here have that attitude but I have never thought that they were a bigot nor would I accuse someone of being one. Especially since I don’t know who is really sitting behind that computer screen. Must be nice to be all knowing like you, were you can accuse people of being bigoted.

“So crime is committed exclusively by illegals, and all legals are fully law abiding?”

They abide by the laws, could that have possibly meant in coming into this county, immigrating here LEGALLY? Yeah I think so. So again where do you get off calling someone a bigot for stating the simple fact: AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT BROKE THE LAW TO COME INTO THIS COUNTY. Hence the reason they are illegal. Is this statement true or false?
Oh that’s right you forgot to quote that part, here it is in full: “Can you say the same for all the illegals? Oh wait hence the term illegals because they are just that breaking the law. Kind of like cutting in line before all the others.”

Maybe you and Brendabee have no problem with people coming here illegally and jumping ahead of those you follow the rules. I have several friends who followed the rules and they feel a bit differently then you two.

So explain to me where I stated anywhere “so crime is comitted exclusively by illegals, and all legals are fully law abiding?” Kind of mudding the waters huh? There is a difference in a legal immigrant and an illegal immigrant what is that difference do you suppose?

“but show me the proof of welfare, medicaide, WIC, food stamps, housing loans etc. - cause I think you're blowing smoke.”

Smoke huh? I suppose you didn’t read any WS Journal articles or the articles from the N & R but here’s one. Housing loan: from the N & R: “Last year, the same federal government that twice deported him put its financial might behind a $123,000 Federal Housing Administration loan that allowed him to buy a brand-new house in Winston-Salem.” http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051211/NEWSREC0101/512110311

Wow that’s a lot of smoke blowing. But I guess that legal immigrants just don’t want housing loans huh, so no biggie.

An old article which I link to highbeam if you want to read the whole thing you might want to search that paper that is listed. I don’t have the time. “More than $1 billion in welfare benefits flow to U.S.-born children whose parents are illegal immigrants, according to a new federal study.
The cost of one type of welfare benefit, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, rose by 46 percent over three years to families headed by illegal immigrants, according to the study by the congressional General Accounting Office.” http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:5482350&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=

Here’s one from Texas: “More than 50,000 Texas families headed by an illegal immigrant collect welfare benefits because their children were born in the United States, a new federal study said. At least $1.1 billion in food stamps and Aid to Families with Dependent Children flowed to at least 224,000 such families nationwide in 1995. The AFDC payments to households headed by illegal immigrants grew by a startling 46 percent in three years, from $479 million in 1992 to $700 million in 1995, according to the study.
http://www.texnews.com/texas97/illegal112297.

Also JDR how hard to you suppose it is to get welfare benefits by using fraud? I mean don’t we have welfare fraud even with legal citizens. So suppose an illegal has fake papers (driver’s licenses, ss cards) or do you think they don’t obtain fake papers?

“I was asking folks to do a self examination and restrict comments accordingly, but am sure most will diss' the request.”

Again I request that you copy and paste one bigoted statement that was made in this thread. Maybe Tony’s would apply since he said they were dirty (although he didn’t agree) but other then that, where is the bigoted statements. You might not agree with the opinions of some but that gives you no right to call someone a bigot because you disagree.

I have lived most of my life here in North Carolina and up until recently, wouldn't have wanted to live anywhere else in the world. We used to have a beautiful, uncrowded, thriving state. Not anymore. The highways are overcrowded, the jobs are gone, the wages are down, the schools are overcrowded, the social systems are near collapse and the over all standard of living has plummeted. Why has this happened to our lovely home? Because our government has allowed it to happen.

First let me say, I have no issue with people who come to the United States, seeking a better life, and immigrating here through legal means, following our laws. That is what has made our country strong through the years.

But I take great issue with people who blatantly break our laws by crossing our borders illegally. They have no rights here. They flood our country bringing lawlessness, violence, drugs and a host of social problems. They have the audacity to flaunt their illegal presence by marching in the streets of our cities. Why weren't the law enforcement officers making arrests? Why are we sitting idlely by while our country is turned into Little Tiajauna?

The House of Representatives passed a good bill. The Senate is doing its usual number by proposing a weak uneffective waterdown bill. I think they are spineless cowards more worried about being re-elected than doing something to improve the lives of the average American.

Please, please, take the time to write to your senators. Force them to take a hard look at this issue before it is too late to fix this problem. We can stop the illegal flow across our borders and the deterioration of our standard of living by demanding that our government does WHATEVER it takes to end the invasion. Speak up folks while you still can........ in English instead of Spanish!

NCRaised,I'm going to agree with everything you said even if it means I'll be called a bigot. You know something else I'm fed up with besides spineless politicans? I'm sick of seeing signs printed in english and spanish. I'm sick of calling a 'help line' for assistance and having to 'talk' to someone who barely speaks a word of english. I'm also sick and tired of picking up a newspaper and seeing names like "Pablo Sanchez" and "Juan Alverez" was arrested for drugs,theft, assult, and a variety of other crimes that outnumber names like "Smith and Jones" 10 to 1. Every week I read the "crime report" section in the Kernersville news and it is full of spanish names that have broken the law. DUIs, breaking and entering, auto theft, driving without a license, on and on and on. As I said these names outnumber the "Smiths and Jones" by at least 10 to 1.

You can say my, my that's a "big-o tree" or any other pc, chatchy phrases all you want, but I'm sick and tired of paying taxes to see these low-life mexicans clog up the courts and emergency rooms at taxpayers' expense.

Trish one-tone:

Early on I asked each to "look inside" because only the individual can tell if they are being truely fair or defacto rcaists.

I never actually accused you of being a bigot - 'cause no one can tell in a blog.

"... take jobs away from the needy". Any "legal" willing to work as long and a hard as the typical "illegal" for $1 / hour will get a job. The question is how needy is one - and that includes the guy who lost the bid to redo your kitchen.

Rant about about the nastys that stole the work for him, how they were paid in cash under the table and you may - or may not - have some ammo, but the bottom line is historically folks coming to a new land to better themselves work hard for little and those that have been in the country for a while become lazy. It's just a fact.

" .. an illegal in your own backyard accused of a couple of rapes." That is as true as the white lacross boys crime ... were they citizens? This is exactly what I'm talking about - crime is crime, and to isolate criminal cases to "prove" that illegals are causing a crime wave CAN be percieved as racists. I didn't way it was - I said it can be percieved that way.

I did read your article - it in fact I echoed it: - sure diseases were being brought in, one advantage to legal immmigration is a chance to stop it at the border - but that the real problem was "free" medical care being given away and that was causing the closure of some hospitals.

That's what I said too - please stop your shrill finger wagging, Ms. Trish one-tone.

As for the rest of your tome:

One or two or a hundred getting a questionable housing loan does not the Mortgage Industry break.

" .. welfare benefits because their children were born in the United States". I have on at least 3 earlier occasssions stated the Constitution on this matter needs to be re-written .. this makes 4.

.. and finally, 'cause apparently I've not been clear:

I ask each to "look inside" because only the individual can tell if they are being truely fair or defacto racists.

I never accused you of being a bigot - but in herem no one can tell. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, chill out.

The debate continues in Congress and all across this land on illegal immigration. Illegal's are entering the United States at the rate of roughly 150 per hour. That's an educated guess just like the Pew Hispanic Center's estimate that there are 11.5 million to 12 million undocumented residents in the nation. Educated guess or simply a wild estimate, it goes without saying, the problem is enormous and is not going away anytime soon from what is being reported.

This week, as the Senate Judiciary Committee struggled (that's a nice word for postured and name called too look good in an election year) to come up with an immigration reform proposal of its own. Meanwhile, President Bush addressed a group of freshly minted citizens. The President said, "America should not have to choose between being a welcoming society and a lawful society."

From what I can see currently it is neither.

Bush also said that "no one should claim that immigrants are a burden on our economy." And that is true when discussing LEGAL immigrants. However, that isn't true of illegal immigrants, nearly two-thirds of whom lack a high school diploma. They work hard but contribute little to the economy. Meanwhile, illegal immigration is driving down the earnings of America's most poorly paid workers.

Paul Krugman's column in the New York Times, cited a Harvard study that calculated that American high-school dropouts would earn up to 8 percent more each year if it weren't for illegal immigrants from Mexico alone. Robert Samuelson's piece in Newsweek reported that 35 percent of undocumented residents lack health insurance and 26 percent receive some form of federal aid. And educating the 1.7 million children of illegal immigrants has placed a crushing burden on many school districts.

As many here have stated , cheap housecleaning and landscaping come at a social cost and a high one at that.

Most people who come illegally do so to better the lives of themselves and their families. They really shouldn't be blamed for risking their lives to improve their lot as most of us would do the same thing if the situation dictated. But if they couldn't get jobs, few would brave border guards, what few there are, and desert.

Bills before Congress to toughen penalties for employers who hire illegal aliens deserve support, if they really have any teeth in them. It is the businesses that hire them, not society at large, that are profiting by their presence. Neglecting to check a prospective employee's citizenship status or winking at a fake green card should lead to fines large enough that employers can't treat them as just another cost of doing business. Chronic offenders should get prison time, but that is going to take some tough laws with teeth in them and most politicians,No matter what side of the asile, are not going to "offend" that particular group of people.

It is also taken as "gospel truth",that illegal immigrants are needed to do the dirty, dangerous or boring jobs that Americans won't do. Not so, what is true is that illegal immigrants take the jobs that Americans won't do at the low wages employers offer. So as the old adage goes, "Why pay more when you can get it cheaper." Isn't that the American way? Maybe it's time to change that attitude not only on labor and wages but on all products, but that's a discussion for another day.

That's my nickels worth for today.

If speaking the truth, no matter how ugly, makes me a bigot, I'll accept the characterization. I do not want this discussion to get stalled because of a word. As I see it, most folks who have expressed an opinion have based those opinions on fact. And sometimes facts are not very flattering. Does this, however, make the facts any less true?

I think not. Even the statement about illegals being "dirty" can be true, based on one's experience. Normally we think of dirty as being a physical appearence. But it can mean something entirely different to the person using it.

When I first read that statement, I automatically thought "How absurd!" That was because I was thinking of the word in it's normal useage, in a literal way. But when I stopped to think of what I considered dirty (other than appearence), I found myself agreeing with the sentiment.

The first thoughts I had was of things I have posted before, ie, 7-8 cars parked all over the yard killing all the grass, inside furniture sitting on the porch or in the yard, trash littering the house and yard, kids peeing and defecating in the yard, unwashed and/or smelly bodies, selling drugs to minors, disrespecting the insurance, licensure and entry laws, taking food from the mouths of American citizens, non-stop breeding at the taxpayers expense, letting children run wild in the stores stealing fruit or candy, refusing to learn and speak english. I consider all these things dirty, underhanded and offensive.

I realize our standard of physical cleanliness in the US is more stringent than a lot of countries. And I realize we hold a different view of appearence, not only personal, but of our surroundings. This does not mean, to me anyway, that I should expect less of people living in the US. If they come here, they need to make some effort to adapt. But I see most hispanics keeping the ways of where they come from.

I, like NCRaised, am more than weary of having to cow-tow to illegals. If one chooses to come to the US, they should first and foremost, come here legally. Then they should expect to adapt to the customs, the laws and the language. It should not be the other way around.

One issue that has not been raised here is the fact that rabies has increased dramatically. In the counties that have higher numbers of hispanics, rabies has increased the most. Unfortunately, whether they are legal or not, their unvaccinated animals are causing even more problems.

Bottom line is, at the end of the day, our country is less well off because of the influx of illegals. Their unfettered arrival is instrumental in pushing this nation closer to the brink of bankruptcy and ruin. Our enemies are destroying us without firing a gun or exploding a bomb. And they are doing it with illegals.

*************************************************THE BOTTOM LINE IN ALL OF THIS IS:

The Bush Administration is in the hip pocket of big business.

Big business depends on cheap labor.

Bush sold us out, and has his "lap dogs" out trying to spin the situation.

After watching McCain wiggle on Meet the Press, I am now convinced that the Republican party cannot offer a candidate that will stand up and be an AMERICAN. The other party has done nothing to convince me it can either. The Bush "apologists" are defending a puppet of Exxon, Halliburton, CitiCorp, and others. They are not standing up for the America that abhors "Borrow & Spend", War without cause, and tax cuts for the wealthiest. If you are a person who believes in those things, God bless you and the soul you sold to the devil!

I agree, Yvonne - let's just mow all the brown skinned bastards down.

I think the House bill had provisions that include heftier fines on businesses found to be employing illegals. Of course, I'm sure there is a loophole there somewhere. I hope not. I have always said that if they fined businesses $100,000 per illegal hired, the problem would vanish overnight.

The House of Representatives once again represents the people, while the Senate does what they dang well please.

“Early on I asked each to "look inside" because only the individual can tell if they are being truely fair or defacto rcaists.”

Really then explain what this was meaning: “What did they say about the Acorn when it grew up? (Posted by: James D. Rockefeller at April 1, 2006 02:08 PM) WOW - That's a Big-a-Tree! (Posted by: James D. Rockefeller at April 1, 2006 02:08 PM)” Sorry I forgot that I needed by decoding ring to read what you post. Sounds like to me you were calling people bigots.

“Any "legal" willing to work as long and a hard as the typical "illegal" for $1 / hour will get a job.”

Have you had much experience in this area JDR? I have and funny thing is my PERSONAL experience was different from what you are saying.

“crime is crime, and to isolate criminal cases to "prove" that illegals are causing a crime wave CAN be percieved as racists.”

Crime wave? Hmm where did anyone say that JDR? What really can be perceived as big-a-tree are people who read “dirty” and “crime waves” into illegals when it was never mentioned to begin with. Is that why it is so easy to read them when they are not there?

“I didn't way it was - I said it can be percieved that way.”

I left that secret decoder ring at home once again explain the big-a-tree and how someone is suppose to see your intention to be to tell people to “look inside” because I seem to be a bit slow witted when it comes to decypering your writings.

Can you please explain to me what your meaning behind this comment was: “Your link: but when you read the article - it states the real issue as "non-reimbursed tax on the system."

Yeah it did state that along with 3 other things (one of which was showing how disease was spreading). Not only that I never mentioned anything about closing hospitals etc. Tony stated they do not carry disease. I had a different opinion and linked to a story that showed there has been a rise in certain diseases. You then state that link is not good enough and go off about something or another. Whatever JDR. Please explain how when an article list three different things, and I link to said article where it points and gives data on one point (disease) then it invalids the argument because the whole article wasn’t about the one issue, according to you of course.

“That's what I said too - please stop your shrill finger wagging, Ms. Trish one-tone.”

Hahaha what a knee slapper JDR. Really you should think of writing for Dave Lettermen. Sorry if you don’t like to be called out but if you are going to accuse people of being “big a tree” then be a big boy and defend it or apologize. Muddying the waters as you are attempting to do still does not erase what you said.

Also what you said was: “but when you read the article - it states the real issue as "non-reimbursed tax on the system." So that came across as my link and the data within it (leprosy for example) was invalid. So if you didn’t have a problem with the link to begin with, why did you bring it up?

“One or two or a hundred getting a questionable housing loan does not the Mortgage Industry break.”

Sorry JDR please point out to where I said it did. If I’m not mistaken you are the one that said it didn’t happen at all. Wait here is your direct quote: “The cost of Education is legit', as is Medical Care, but show me the proof of welfare, medicaide, WIC, food stamps, housing loans etc. - cause I think you're blowing smoke.” So I showed you the proof and now I get “well it does happen but doesn’t mean it going to break.” Copy and paste that for me too JDR where did I ever say it was going to break? Muddying the waters again. I really did expect more from you then this.

“but in herem no one can tell.”

Then why bring it up to begin with?

By the way JDR I do have to apologize, because you see your posts always confuse me, probably why I rarely read them. You see I have this habit of saying what I mean and meaning what I say. You on the other hand seem to have a habit of writing a bunch of gooby-glock and attaching some links in with it and low and behold everyone is supposed to understand what you are saying. I’m sure some do but I never have. However even for a slow nitwit like me I couldn’t miss the knee slapper of a joke “big-a-tree”. Although now it seems I did miss it because quite frankly no where in your joke did I read “look inside” and “good be perceived”.

So Mr. Bush wants to give illegal immigrants who managed to sneak in here "guest workers status"?
Well excuse me. These are the same people that I saw on a news report one night, who sneak in to the US, and get caught by INS, or border patrol or whatever. What happens then, is they are brought in, checked and identified and then set free with a court date to re-appear for a deportation hearing. 99 percent of them never come back. Now because of the weird way our system is set up, no warrant is ever issued, so these people are just free to walk the streets. What kind of crap is that?

To My Darling Trish:

Actually I do have experience with this:

“Any "legal" willing to work as long and a hard as the typical "illegal" for $1 / hour will get a job.”

... my first job was on a farm where I worked 60 hours every 6 days, and got a great free lunch all the milk I wanted every one of those days. We also had the best water in the county (according to the milk-truc driver) and took home a $48 check - that's actually under a buck-an hour.

TO ALL ELSE: Am I really that crypic?

JDR said: “I asked each to "look inside" because only the individual can tell if they are being truely fair or defacto racists.”

Trish says: " .. if you are going to accuse people of being “big a tree” then be a big boy and defend it or apologize."

==
I'm just obtuse I guess.

==

James,

I am not jumping on the bandwagon to send all brown-skins packing. And I usually agree with most of what you posts because you do not get bogged down in emotion. You normally present facts and let them speak for themselves.

For whatever reason, you seem to have gotten riled up in this discussion. Nowhere did I even suggest we "mow" them all down. I am speaking of illegals when I voice my anger, my disappointment with the government and my weariness with being screwed by people who don't belong here to begin with. I am not referring to folks who enter legally, no matter what color their skin is.

I have always subscribed to the notion that charity begins at home. Therefore, it ties my stomach in knots to see people enter the country illegally and benefit from it, especially when they are getting freebies that American citizens do not qualify for. And it really burns my butt to see how they are abusing the system and getting away with it.

I have posted many times regarding fining big business for hiring illegals. I have also posted that the law turns their heads where big business is concerned. What options do we have? None, except to keep repeating, to anyone who will listen, how tired and disgusted we are with what is happening to out country.

A couple of years ago, when discussing this same subject, someone, possibly Steve, posted that the lack of intervention by the government into the issue of illegals was a conspiracy. Allowing them entry without fear keeps the minimum wage down and greatly increases the profits for big business.

It is rather difficult to fight big business when they are supported by the politicians you are complaining to.

BTW, I DO mow my own lawn, do much of my own drywall (and a hellava lot better than the hispanics who did some work here), do my own landscaping, have carpentry skills, wallpapering skills and cook many of my own meals. I have never hired hispanics to do work for me just because they were cheaper (the drywallers were subcontractors). And I am one who would rather pay a higher price for any service as long as they were not illegals.

"Actually I do have experience with this:Any "legal" willing to work as long and a hard as the typical "illegal" for $1 / hour will get a job.”

I'm sorry James and your first job was in what year? Can you find me one job (just one) that only pays $1 an hour? According to the article I linked above: "In 2004, the median hourly wage in Mexico was $1.86 compared to $9 for Mexicans working in the United States, says Rakesh Kochhar of Pew." A little more then a dollar there.

Either way, like you I have experience, however mine even though I am a citizen with a great stable work history and an education I get passed over for non-English speaking people (oh and this is the sevice industry, Costco to be exacat). I apply at Lowes and they have applications in English and Spanish. I apply for factory work don't even get a call back and then read where illegals have been busted working there. So although I appreicate you started out working for a $1 an hour, do you have anything to go on in the here and now?

JDR said: “What did they say about the Acorn when it grew up? WOW - That's a Big-a-Tree!”

JDR also said: “It's a fine line - but I suggest look inside your feelings and separate bigotry from reasoned objections. There is clearly a bit of both in many of you.”

Trish asked: “JDR, can you define or further explain where you feel that “many of you” have bigotry (I am interpreting this to mean bigots)?”

No I suppose I was the one being obtuse.

Oh and JDR just as a side note, I never said you were calling me a bigot, I was asking who you were calling one. I saw no bigoted statements. So the following people posted before your “joke” about big trees. Let’s see we have the letter writer, Yvonne, Hugh, DD, you, me, Brendabee, Mrp and Tony Morton. I was just asking who/what comments you were referring to. Just a simple question for clarification. Obviously you were referring to someone because you stated “a bit of both in many of you”.

First off, Love, I was being sarcastic with the $1 / hour - trying to say "real cheap".

Since you challanged it ... and since I could, I addressed it literally. The year was 1968 - and if you use an inflation calculator you'll see it is below minimum wage (farm work is exempt from the rules anyway).

I may be cryptic but you're so damm literal ... I can see you at Lowes now ...

"Pardon me, Miss .. but do know where the rest rooms are?'

"We don't have and rest-rooms - hell we never get a freaking break."

"I'm sorry, Miss .. I meant the bathrooms, a place where I can empty my bladder in privacy."

Yvonne - you and I both know I was being sarcastic - but we might have to explain that to Trish.

My first point is we generally don't know who is a legal hispanic and who is an illegal hispanic - and make no mistake, that's primarily what we're talking about here.

My second point is there is a lot of xenophobia going around - in the Triad area particularly: If you're not white, you'd better be actively Christian, and it's best if you're also clearly submissive.

I once dated a girl (Florida) who's daddy told me he didn't believe in evolution 'cause he weren't related to no monkies. Now that's an extreme, but it's also real. That was in 1970, and I'd moved up to $1.65 / hour.

Speaking of Florida - I just remembered - Part of that job was driving a tractor with the Immigrants that came up from Mexico - we were all making $1.65 / hour - and we worked from dawn to dusk, 7 days a week - on week I logged 98 hours. After a couple weeks the crops were picked and they went on to their next assigment, I'm sure in a few months they headed back to Mexico.

Now what was that girls name? She was tall and blond headed and fun to be with and still in High School .. boy I let some good ones get away!

One more thing, Yvonne - show me again where they are "abusing the system and getting away with it."

Trish provides a few specific examples, but when I point out getting free medical care or committing fraud or a genuine crime are not unique to illegal immigrants - I am accused of something ..

Yvonne, I agree with what most of us are saying about illegal aliens and enforcing stricter laws in regard to naturalization. However, when I looked at this description I was a bit perplexed.

"ie, 7-8 cars parked all over the yard killing all the grass, inside furniture sitting on the porch or in the yard, trash littering the house and yard, kids peeing and defecating in the yard, unwashed and/or smelly bodies, selling drugs to minors, disrespecting the insurance, licensure and entry laws, taking food from the mouths of American citizens, non-stop breeding at the taxpayers expense, letting children run wild in the stores stealing fruit or candy, refusing to learn and speak english."

Except for a few things, I would swear I read or heard the same thing twenty or thirty years ago......but it was about rednecks then. ;-)

CLARIFICATION:

There is - in my twisted mind - a big distinction between the criminal elements that come to America because the rewards for crime are proportionalty greater (I mean, how much money can you really make selling coke in El Salvadore) vs. those coming here to work hard for cash to send back home to El Salvadore.

Clearly there are a bunch of the former - ambiguously stated as "Crime is Crime" - but I'm talking about the latter.

Big business depends on cheap labor.

See who is behind the cheap labor read up on the MCCAIN-KENNEDY BILL S1033. Neither worth a plug nickle. Also McCain , who was slapping Jerry Fawell around in 2000 as well as Pat Robertson seems to be warming up to them. He will be the speaker at graduation at Liberty University. Now says that Falwell is not the far right conservative he though he was.
My what one will do to get elected in this country.
I wouldn't have voted for him anyway but after these two deals, S1033 and his sucking up to Falwell, he could be the only one running and he would not get my vote.
Hope Joe Liberman kicks some butt and gets on the ballot, as he should have been last time, but that is wishfull thinking. Other Dem from Va, Allen, is not a bad pick for the Dems either . So far no Rep worth voting for has committed. So far 08 looks like another year with no choice except bad and worse.

"I was being sarcastic"

Well honey buns point is you accussed people here of being bigoted. All I wanted was clarifaction on who or what post you interperted that way because I didn't see it.

As far as being literal, that I am, especially on these blogs. I say what I mean and mean what I say. When it comes to these blogs there is no way to tell the tone of the post whether it's sarcastic, funny, mean, questioning etc. etc. What's the point of being sarcastic if it reads like a stupid comment? As I said hence the reason I rarely read what you post or respond to what you say. Why is it so hard to just post the point you are trying to get across? Thing is JDR I like you, you debate/discuss issues very well (meaning you answer questions, respond and don't run away) however I do not have the time to try to figure out what point you are attempting to get across.

This time however I really wanted to know where you saw bigoted comments, which you still haven't clarified.

ps As far as being literal in person, pretty funny little joke you made about the Lowes, however I'm not as stupid as you seem to think. But as much as I would like to put my little dialog down about how you would be asking for the restroom, I'll refrain myself. Feel free to put me down make jokes about a job I and my family really needed thing is I have no problems with running around the circles you seem to enjoy making. I asked a simple question and how many post later and YOU still haven't answered or did I miss it somewhere it that special code of yours.

Trish: For the Um-teenth Time:

I never accuse anyone in this specific thread of being a bigot. I did asked everyone to check themselves because Immigration is a topic that can easily provoke racists slurs.

You continued to challange this - clear - statement. I responded by pointing out statements you made that COULD be considered bigoted.

Neither did I equate being a bigot with, e.g., satanic worship - some would say it is.

==

"big·ot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

I have seen evidence of bigotry in other threads - a clear and specific example is NeoCon - watch the next time the topic of homosexuality comes up. Now there's a proud bigot in action.

I'm not picking on him, we all know it. It is his delibrately positioned mindset and I'm sure Neo has his rationalizations. He can also take the criticism and would not (certainly could not) disagree with that accessment.

MRP:

I think Retired General Wesley Clark is phishing for the Democratic nomination - whatca think 'bout him?

Joe,

You are right about some of the same things being said about rednecks. I wasn't one of the ones saying it tho. As a norm I do not use that word or other words to group all people who display similar characteristics. However, illegals are all illegal. And rednecks are legal citizens.

The things I mentioned are things I see and live with on a daily basis. The conditions I described are conditions that have existed only since our town has been swamped to oversaturation with illegals. Neighborhoods that were once filled with small, moderately priced and neat/clean homes are the ones I made reference to. Neighborhoods that were once mixed with blacks, whites and other ethnicities are now exclusively hispanic. Illegal hispanics, for the most part.

Since they have no investment in America, they treat the property here with such disrespect. Or perhaps they are simply continuing to live the way they always have. Who knows? But I don't care what the reason is. I am sick beyond words of such disrespect for our laws, our land and our customs.

James,

My point was, what or who is your dog in this fight? I am not sure anymore. You started out by saying we need to focus on pushing for big business to be fined for hiring illegals. Somehow it has morphed into something else.

I know you are one to do a lot of searching on the net for info (as well as using other resources). For every site you may provide that says illegals are not sucking the system dry, I could provide one that says they are. For this reason I use personal experience as my guide.

I talk to people in my field, social workers, people in the business office of my hospital, people at the health department and people at DSS. While we cannot reveal information about specific people, we can and do discuss the situation of illegals in general. I think even the most hardened skeptic would be shocked.

I see the hispanic population, legal and illegal, abuse the emergency room because they don't want to go to the doctor's office. One legal one will have insurance and ten others will use his/her insurance card. We are not allowed to turn them in because of HIPPA.

If they went to a doctor's office, they would have to answer some questions they don't want to answer. So they use the ER as their dr's office. They would also have to pay a private physician but can promise to pay the hospital. Most debts are uncollectable because most illegals use a fake name.

As I said, it does not behoove us as American citizens, to be divided on this issue. We must stand together in opposition to what politicians (both parties) are trying to force us to accept in regards to illegals. While they want amnesty for the illegals already here and to make coming here illegally easier, we must send a resounding "no" as our collective answer.

Yvonne:

My original dog was that the "range of debate" is too limited - the special interest of "we need 'em to keep big business in business" vs. the special interest of the "right-wing shoot 'em at the border" solution.

If through a gun-sight we could litmus test the good brown-skinned from the bad-brown skinned, maybe shootin' at the border is the best solution, but as you state, for every data provided on one side, there is countering data on the other side.

Of course, one must first define "good" and "bad".

Is abuse of HIPPA an "illegal immigrant" vs. "legal immigrant" issue, or is it simply abuse of HIPPA? Are illegal immigrant criminals mostly illegals or are they mostly criminals?

My simplified "we can start and make a big dent" solution is to enforcing existing laws about hiring illegals - In LA, for example, the local Police are not allowed to inforce Federal immigration laws. We might also want to look harder at HIPPA laws, and I advovate a change in the Anchor Baby laws.

Where we're headed for is more loss of the middle class. The problem with a flood of "legalized" illegal immigrants is the ratching down of wages for the middle class. The problem with simply throwing out all illegals is the short term loss of financial value that will be hard to replace - especially when politicians are trying to get re-elected - it's a damm tough problem that willl require a lot of thought and planning - but we're stuck in the narrow debate.

It morphed into a defense of my statement that framing discussion in the shape of bigotry will be counter productive (not to mention just plain wrong). Of course, I also say GITMO is at best counter productive - but apparently my logic is too counter-conventional to be readily understood.

JDR, on Clark, not a chance in hades that I would vote for the individual. He is like a loaf of bread, sliced in many parts and stale.

Thanks for the explanation James. Usually I follow the discussion better but got lost or sidetracked on this one. I do understand where you are coming from and can agree to a point. However, if we stuck strictly to impersonal reasons to oppose the unfettered influx of illegal, predominately hispanics into our country, it is my opinion we would not form as cohesive a group.

My point being, I really do not care what motivates people to oppose what is happening to our nation with regard to illegals. Be it bigotry, prejudice or fear. I usually do not think in terms of the end justifies the means. But considering the magnitude of this problem, I think it is going to take a major joint effort to make our voices heard. So whatever it takes to get folks on board and rowing in the same direction, I'm thinking it can only benefit us all at the end of the day.

Most of us are middle of the road politically. There are extremes everywhere, including this forum. But on this issue almost everyone is of the same mind. Thus I feel, whatever the reason, we can send a stronger message to our representatives collectively than we can individually.

I am just more than a little ready to flex my political muscle on this issue. And I'm happy to know there are so many others who are "sick and tired" of being dictated to with regards to illegals. While I am not radical enough to advocate shooting anyone, I am radical enough to suggest making raids in factories that are known to have a large illegal employee ratio and raid homes where twenty are living in a two bedroom house. I advocate rounding them up and shipping them on the spot back across the border. I advocate fining the companies 10,000 dollars for every illegal they employee. And most of all I advocate cutting off all the federal subsidies.

This would be a good start, imho.

" ...if we stuck strictly to impersonal reasons ..."

I understand, Yvonne, that using emotional elements gets the juices flowing better, faster, etc .. but we're not talking about the forces of love

We'll have to agree to disagree - but as a former listener to Dr. Laura, here's my "feeling":

Feelings are harmful in the decision making process. "But he Loves me ..." was her famous quote for why women stay with men that batter them.

My wife taught me to put the shoe on the other foot - "How would you like to be treated if the roles were reversed" seems to work well in decisions regarding other people.

If I wanted to immigrate to Nirvana, and they just let me in - which is the situation we have now - I'd do it. If they didn't, I'd at least want a process that was somewhat fair and logical, with rules I could understand.

The funny part about Dr. Laura - is she's good at giving advise to others, but she freely abuses her own advice when it helps her position.

The famous example is her "sucking baby's down the sink" expression for all abortions. Here, she deliberately uses highly emotionally charged "feelings" to influence towards her belief - in violation of her own tenent.

If it's already been noted, I apologize...

Per ALIPAC's (Americans for Legal Immigration PAC) site at http://www.alipac.us/article-1135-thread-1-0.html:
"The controversial proposal to give illegal aliens taxpayer subsidized in-state tuition at American universities is included in the immigration "reform" bill that also contains the Guest Worker Amnesty proposals according to the Washington Times!"