News-Record.com

Funny how on the job these illegals speak spanish, listen to spanish radio then watch the spanish station or spanish satellite at home?

"If you feel passionate about immigrants learning English, look into becoming a literacy tutor and help make it happen."

Funny, nobody helped me cover the cost of learning Spanish in order to receive my degree. I suppose picking up a book and learning on your own is out of the question? It must be, personal responsibility is a thing of the past in this country.

When living in foreign countries, I listened to the local radio stations, watched local TV stations, hung out with the local folks and attempted to learn the language as quickly as possible. Yes, I had classes as well at times but the other things helped more than the classes that were available. I don't see too many of the spanish speaking folks doing that. I believe that Hugh and Bishop pretty much summed up the attitude and desire in their statements.

So if I'm understanding these responses correctly, you're saying you refuse to help because *some* immigrants aren't going about learning the language in the exact way that you think they should?

As the letter writer pointed out, those who sign up for an ESL course obviously do want to learn the language, so it's kind of irrelevant that you see some immigrants talking in Spanish and listening to Spanish language programming.

Regarding "personal responsibility": Signing up for an ESL course *is* demonstrating personal responsibility. By taking a language class it means you are trying to learn the language, not that someone else is going to learn it for you.

What's the point in learning English when businesses bend over backwards to offer their products/services in Spanish. How many times has anyone called a business and heard "Para Espanol oprima el dos"? Notice the binlingual ATMs, bilingual stores, yellow page ads and signs that say Se habla espanol?

Most Catholic churches, including mine, offer mass in Spanish, much to my chagrin. We go to the English mass and you won't find nary a Spanish speaker there trying to learn the language and assimilate with us English speakers.

You are absolutely correct Dan. No incentitive for most to learn English. For those who wish to do so, I applaude them. To help them along I suggest listening to radio, TV,(not spanish speaking) and going to places where English is spoken. People there will not mind the fact that your English is a less than perfect and will be more than willing to help you learn. That has been my experience both here and abroad.

"Regarding 'personal responsibility': Signing up for an ESL course *is* demonstrating personal responsibility."

Is it really; according to the LTE?

"In some areas, there are waiting lists for ESL programs."

Sitting idly by and waiting on the course to open up without even taking the initiative to learn it on your own is not taking personal responsibility. It’s putting the blame on others, because the class is full. Folks that come here aren’t forced to do so. They make a personal choice. If they want to learn English badly enough, they’ll use whatever resources are available to them.

If you truly sat down and though about it Immigrants have it easy compared to English-speakers trying to learn Spanish in the US. There’s an entire English-speaking population to help them practice English, television, radio, advertisements, newspapers, and books. It’s common knowledge that immersion is the quickest way to learn a foreign language. I’m sorry, but to argue that these folks can’t learn English because there’s no room in a class *is* putting off “personal responsibility.”

"Sitting idly by and waiting on the course to open up without even taking the initiative to learn it on your own is not taking personal responsibility."

I'm sorry Bishop, could you point out the part of the original letter that says that those on the waiting list are sitting "idly by" and not doing other things to learn the language in the meantime?

The LTE didn't say that. All I pointed to was the fact she said that the classes are full. Yet there is a huge population of folks that only speak Spanish in this country. As others have already pointed out, there quite a number of products and services offered in Spanish. If folks were taking the initiative to learn English, there wouldn’t be a need for this. All I had to do to come to my conclusion of Immigrants sitting “idly by” was look around. It’s very simple really, if they don’t speak English, they’re not learning English. Does that make it clear?

Don't worry Bishop - your position is perfectly clear to me. The point is that you don't know that the people who are on the ESL waiting lists are the same ones that you're hearing speak Spanish, so you can't legitimately say that the ones on the waiting list are not taking other steps to learn English. Some may be and some may not be. You can't draw any conclusions about those on the waiting list based on observations of any old random group of immigrants that you come across.

Secondly, I disagree that simply because a person is speaking Spanish when they are around other Latinos means that they must not be trying to learn English. I agree that the quickest way to learn would be to speak English as much as possible, but I don't think its all or nothing. Unless you've followed them around all day you have no idea what degree of effort they're putting into learning the language. But again, even assuming that they're putting in no effort doesn't tell you anything about the specific group of immigrants on the ESL waiting lists.

“I agree that the quickest way to learn would be to speak English as much as possible, but I don't think its all or nothing.”

You agree, but then you contradict yourself. I hate to break this to you, but learning by immersion is all or nothing. That's kind of the point. Again, nobody forced them to come here.

“Secondly, I disagree that simply because a person is speaking Spanish when they are around other Latinos means that they must not be trying to learn English.”

Oh, so these folks speak perfect English and simply choose to speak Spanish instead? The fact that every time I call my bank or use an ATM, I'm offered an option for Spanish, every time I go out there are signs in both English and Spanish, and every time I go to a store I see products with writing in Spanish certainly disputes that theory.

“You can't draw any conclusions about those on the waiting list based on observations of any old random group of immigrants that you come across.”

I suppose that the sheer number of folks who don’t speak English; as in don’t have the ability, have absolutely nothing to do with it. Generally when there’s a market for something it’s because there’s a need. There’s an entire market for products and services in Spanish in the US. This clearly indicates that people don’t speak English because they need the product or service in Spanish. Economists don’t have to follow people around in order to glean useful information about markets; they simply make logical observations.

Subsequently, in my argument I have made several logical observations about this market. It’s not just products and services though. Standardized tests in schools are being translated into Spanish, Job sites like CareerBuilder.com and Monster.com ask for Spanish as a second language for many of the listings, and all the things I listed above are all observations I’ve made about the market. You can’t have it both ways. If immigrants didn’t need products and services in Spanish, there wouldn’t be a market for them.

I haven't contradicted myself at all. You can learn a language without immersion, you probably just won't learn it as quickly.

And again, you are assuming that the people you see speaking Spanish are representative of the people on the ESL waiting list, but that isn't necessarily warranted. Your argument seems to go like this:

1. I hear immigrants speaking Spanish

2. If people are speaking Spanish, they must not be trying to learn English

3. Therefore, no immigrants are trying to learn English, including those on the ESL waiting lists

There's no logic to it - it's nothing more than a few non sequiturs strung together. Your market observations are valid in and of themselves, but they still don't mean that no immigrants are trying to learn English.

Stew in your reply to Bishop regarding following around etc....... Question since you seem to have the answer.
Have you????

People who really want to learn a language will learn it and usually by total immersion. I can tell you that it is a sure way of learning a language and actually a better way than the classes since in the class you mostly learn the "classic" language, just as in Spanish class one learns "Castilian" and not everyday conversational Spanish which the majority use.
Not having enough classes is no excuse even though some would attempt to make it so.
Unless you work with Spanish speaking individuals then you really don't know if Bishops observations are totally incorrect or not. I work with Mexican's regularly and find that the majority make no effort to speak English. I communicate through rough, broken Tex-Mex that I learned many years ago. Those willing to learn English, laugh but are helpful and in return learn a bit of English. The majority scowl or laugh at my feeble attempts to communicate and make no attempt to learn or be helpful. Guess who gets the most help with their needs??? So perhaps Stew your market observations are as far off as you state that Bishops are.

As an interesting observation on the invasion of illegals and what they want, here is a link that many will be interested in:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/borderpatrol.asp

First you said:

"There's no logic to it - it's nothing more than a few non sequiturs strung together."

Then you said:

“Your market observations are valid in and of themselves…”

That’s my whole argument, the existence of the market and people who take advantage of it. One wouldn’t exist without the other.

We have:
A. A market for Spanish products and services.
B. Many people who speak Spanish.

Logically there would be one of two conclusions as to the reason for this:

1. Immigrants can’t learn English for one reason or another.
2. Immigrants don’t want to learn English.

So if it isn't reason number two, it must be reason number one.

Ok bishop, maybe we're getting somewhere after all. Would you agree to these changes to your two options:

1. There are a substantial number of immigrants who can’t learn English for one reason or another.
2. There are a substantial number of immigrants who don’t want to learn English.

In other words, can you agree that for the Spanish-language services market to exist, it's only necessary that a *substantial* number of immigrants are resistant to speaking English, and that the existence of that market does not imply that *no* imigrants are willing and able to learn English?

PotatoStew

First, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that *all* Latino Immigrants are refusing to learn English. If you think that, then you’ve branded me as some kind of racist. You can check behind me, but I don’t believe I preceded any statement regarding Latino Immigrants with the word all. I merely pointed to the existence of a very large base of people who obviously need Spanish oriented products and services due to the large market for it. There’s nothing illogical about that assumption.

Second, the existence of the market proves that a large number either don’t want to learn English or can’t learn English. That’s what I’ve said from the word go. In either case, we still seem to have a lot of folks who are only “hispanohablante.”

Sorry, but statements like this:

"Sitting idly by and waiting on the course to open up without even taking the initiative to learn it on your own is not taking personal responsibility."

...make it sound like you think even those who are displaying an interest in learning English are really doing nothing about it, and statements such as:

"If folks were taking the initiative to learn English, there wouldn’t be a need for this."

...make it sound like you think no one is trying to learn English. If you say I've misunderstood you, that's fine - I'll take your word for it.

Here's the point: If you agree that some Latinos are actually trying to learn English (as you just stated), and if you are offended that there are so many non-English-speaking immigrants around (as many of the commenters here seem to be), does it not make sense to volunteer as an ESL tutor to help those that are willing to learn, as the original LTE suggested?

The original LTE was not arguing that immigrants could not learn English without an ESL class, only that more volunteers will help more immigrants to learn English more rapidly. If you think everyone here should be speaking English, I would think you would see that as a good thing.

Bishop, it should be obvious to you that you're being stewed. It's just another form of being coned, or roched.

It's the in thing to do among that crowd.

Blubba,

Bishop and I are actually carrying on a respectful conversation, and the discussion is actually going somewhere, albeit a bit slowly. If you can't contribute something positive to it, why not go troll around for another LTE to "Blubba". (yeah let's drive the whole "turn a name into a verb" thing into the ground! It's so cutting edge and creative!)

Warmly,
PotatoStew

Bubba, I think you're right.

I hear what your saying letter writer, but the truth is that not all of the ESOL classes are full. Our church has offered FREE ENGLISH classes for over 3 years now. It is never full and on some nights only 2 people will show up. The students understandably have sporadic work schedules but many are not committed to learning english because, as has been pointed out already, and as is blatantly obvious just by visiting any retail store, bank, government office, etc....why should they? It's all right there for them in Spanish. We've no one to blame but ourselves for making it so easy.

So much for a respectful conversation that was going somewhere. Regarding the unanswered question from my last post to you bishop: I would venture a guess that an unwillingness to help belies the true nature of your complaints.

PotatoStew,

Show me where I've specifically said I'm unwilling to help? Go ahead; quote me the text from any of my posts in this forum where I said: “I’m unwilling to help immigrants learn English?” Just because I have strong feelings about this situation, that does not indicate an unwillingness to help.

You continue to make assumptions and inferences about me without even knowing me. I don’t consider that to be “respectful conversation.” Our conversation stopped going somewhere the minute you starting inferring certain things about me. If anyone has strung together a list of non sequiturs; it’s you. Your logic is, “Bishop has strong feelings about people learning to speak English in the USA, and therefore it reveals his “true nature.”

If you want to call people names, just come out and do it. Otherwise I’ll just agree to disagree with you right now.

Bishop, I'm sorry you feel I've been disrespectful. All I have to go by is what you're typing here, and in cases where you've said I misunderstood something (such as when I thought you were implying that you thought no Latinos at all were serious about learning English) I've readily explained what statements of yours led me to that conclusion, and then accepted your correction at face value without further argument. That seems respectful to me.

Regarding your last comment, you've scoffed at the premise behind the original LTE right from your initial comment. Since the LTE suggested that those who think immigrants should speak English would do well to help by becoming ESL tutors, that indicates to me that you disagree with the idea that you should help with that.

Furthermore, when I laid out a specific question, saying:

"If you agree that some Latinos are actually trying to learn English (as you just stated), and if you are offended that there are so many non-English-speaking immigrants around (as many of the commenters here seem to be), does it not make sense to volunteer as an ESL tutor to help those that are willing to learn, as the original LTE suggested?"

...rather than answer, you dodged the question and instead chose to simply agree with Bubba's nonsensical ad hominem. No, not an explicit refusal to help, but yet another indication that points in that direction.

So let's be explicit, and cut out any assumptions at all: Do you agree with the premise of the original LTE that those who dislike hearing illegal aliens speaking languages other than English should help out by volunteering as ESL tutors? And, since you're saying that there's been no actual indication that you are unwilling to help, let's be explicit about that as well: Are you willing to help by being an ESL tutor?

Bishop,

I re-read the entire conversation, and I can see how some of my comments may have come off as being overly snarky. I apologize for that tone.

English, like Spanish, is rather difficult to learn. I have been trying for several years to become fluent in Spanish, which is far easier to learn than English, and am still semi-fluent, despite Spanish classes, radio, and TV.

Incidentally, it is not the fault of illegal or legal immigrants that they are marketed to in Spanish. Banks, food companies, and other corporations (way before the government) saw a market niche in recent immigrants, and exploited that niche by marketing to it in Spanish. This does discourage assimilation and learning of English, but can hardly be blaimed on the recent migrant who is offered "precios bajos". Likewise, Spanish radio and TV, as well as the "national anthem in Spanish" are creations not of Latinos, but of self-interested Anglos seeking a dollare before their target audience knows what hit him/her.

Blaiming illegal immigration, or the lack of desire among recent immigrants to learn English, on the immigrants themselves, is like blaiming the beef industry on the cows. They are ripe for exploitation, and there are callous employers and advertisers who will happily bilk them. Of course what they are doing is illegal (like you or I when we speed), but they are being actively encouraged to do so by major coroporations, and you and I save a buck on oranges because of all this. Does it truly make sense to blaim Jose, who is doing exactly the same thing you or I would do, or should we maybe look at Cargill, ConAgra, Mount Olive, or the construction industry? You're right, Dan, Hugh, Bubba, and Bishop, it's really them who's exploiting us. My mistake.

bishop,

Standardized tests in schools are most certainly not offered in Spanish. I work in a public school, and you don't. Please cite your source.

When you demonize illegal immigrants, or as I'm sure you call them, "illegals", you are demonizing PEOPLE. Are you a Christian? Do you have empathy? Have you ever experienced hardship or animosity? Are these people really hurting you in any way, or are they just a convenient scapegoat?

Mrp,

The one border patrol agent you quote has strong opinions. Snopes (a reliable site) simply verifies that he said what you say he did: AN OPINION.

There are also many border patrol agents who say that our current system is utterly failing, that they would like to see reform, etc.. One guy's opinion is no more relevant than yours or mine. (It was laid out rather nicely, though, unlike his comrades in the Minutemen or on some of these threads.)

At my school, I took the initiative to create an after-school program for Latino students, which is bilingual. I have learned more Spanish, and many of my students have learned English. Many are, in turn, encouraging and/or helping their parents learn English. None of this is evil, and none of it is black-and-white. Reality often comes in shades of gray, or brown, and seldom involves absolutes and ultimatums. For every way you can show me you are harmed by illegal immigration, I can show you two ways you are helped, and vice versa. Stop demonizing human beings, and have a little human emotion and empathy.

The LTE suggests that you help somebody learn English. Is that such a bad idea?

"I work in a public school.."

Eric, the key word in your statement is "A." Are you familiar with the procedures in every single elementary, middle, and high school in every state and county of the USA? Are you also familiar with testing procedures in every single Community College and University in every state and county of the USA? If you are, I’d say that’s quite a feat. I said school; I wasn’t specific as to what type of school. However, if you must know my source it’s the ETS. They have standards tests that have been developed in Spanish from the second grade on through Major Field tests for Batchelor’s and Masters Students.

“…you are demonizing PEOPLE.”

Just like you’re attempting to demonize me now? Did I refer to every single Latino Immigrant as “illegal?” You’ll be hard-pressed to find where I’ve said that anywhere in this forum. I have nothing against folks who come to this country legally, and make honest efforts to learn the language and culture.

“Are you a Christian?”

Frankly, my religious beliefs have nothing to do with this conversation. And yes, I’ve experienced quite a bit of hardship in my life. However, I never expected anything from anybody.

“At my school, I took the initiative to create an after-school program for Latino students, which is bilingual.”

That’s wonderful Eric. I hope you’re able to teach many people how to speak English.

Eric

Based on my own past and recent experience I would rather take the Agents opinion on the subject than someone who has little or no experience.
It may be opinion but it is often found that opinion is based on some pretty hard facts and in this case I strongly believe his is.
Again that is my opinion based on personal experience based on what I see regularly and what I have seen in the past.

i'm an appraiser in california...including an area that seems to be mainly mexican. from my observations, most of the mexicans here...the adult mexicans...make no effort to learn english. they depend on their young kids to translate for them. it's too easy for them to NOT learn english. i also appraise in san francisco where there are many many chinese people. for some reason, i have never been in a chinese household where english is NOT spoken. during the recent immigration 'work-out' in san jose as well as in other areas, there were many mexican flags and some businesses were vandalized with graffitti saying 'taking back what is really ours'. this indicates to me that maybe they think we should learn spanish since this is their land anyway. california voters a few years ago banned bi-lingual education, however, at the elementary school behind my house, announcements are made in spanish. i'm over it. they can learn english or leave.

Eric,

While I agree that it is wonderful that you not only have the time, inclination and resources to assist Mexicans to learn English, not all of us do. Speaking for myself, I do not. So I guess that makes me less Christian?

Is it not enough that my tax dollars are helping support programs that provide free education for illegals, free healthcare, free housing, free interperters, free food? Must I also give them my time and energy for free?

Friday night I helped at our hospital's tent at the "Relay for Life" walkathon to raise money for cancer research. I made mention of the fact that with all the free services our town (which is over 60% hispanic) provides the hispanic community, you would think they would participate in a charitible event for Americans. I could count on my two hands the number of hispanics I saw there.

Until illegals (latinos, hispanics, mexicans or whatever the PC word is), starts making an effort to be a part of my community, I will resent their presence here. I will resent them taking/demanding any and everything our government gives them but not giving anything back. And as long as they keep coming here illegally and being rewarded for it I will resent them (which I feel is a human response).

You can chide me, question my compassion or Christianity in an attempt to make me feel guilty, but you will fail. You are achieving nothing but animosity when you display that holier than thou attitude. I am more than a little weary of being walked all over and expected to say thank you to the ones doing the walking.

I do blame those who deliberately break our laws, then demand sympathy/empathy. They made a conscious decision to put themselves in the position they find themselves in and expect us to accept responsibility. To blame anyone else but the ones perpetrating the crime would be like me blaming myself for being on the same road as the drunk that hit me, rather than blaming the drunk for being drunk.

So carry on with what you feel is right for you. But please refrain from insinuating those of us who do not share your views are somehow less.

Well put Yvonne. Seems as if you have managed to sum up the situation very well for the majority of folks.