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So now we're worried about which is the more reliable compendium of historical facts -- a work of fiction or a collection of mythological writings from 2000 years ago? There must not be any true problems left for us to discuss, I guess. We truly have reached Valhalla! Praise Odin!!

If this interpretation of the scriptures is the only proof that Jesus, the human form of God, did not act in human manner and marry, I'm not convinced. Besides, what difference does it make? I am constantly amazed at the things people choose to make an issue.

With my tongue planted firmly in my cheek, I just have to observe...

Doesn't this letter fly in the face of those who insist that the Bible only ordains marriage between a man and a woman?

nemo, as an athiest, why do you care so much about any of this?

Everytime there is a letter dealing with religion, you always make yourself heard. I have also seen letters to the editor written by you. That is fine, but I really wonder why you always seem so compelled to do all this.

You equate the bible to myths. You know that many people don't believe that. But you do. Fine and dandy. Why do you care?

I am not Baptist. I spend 0% of my day thinking or caring about what the Baptists believe. Much less thinking about how wrong they are. If they have a belief that differs from mine. I in no way care, unless it harms me in some way. As of yet, I haven't had that experience. Ditto this with all other beliefs but my own.

Wouldn't Paul have used Jesus' example of being married (if that claim were true) in his defense of his right to marry in 1 Corinthians 9:5 instead of or in addition to Jesus' brothers and Peter?

"Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?" (NASB)

"nemo, as an athiest, why do you care so much about any of this?"

Religion is a hobby of mine. You know hobbies, don't you? I take an interest, I study in my spare time, I talk about it when I feel like it. It's sort of like my coin collecting, except that I don't expect letters about coins to be of much interest on the editorial page.

"You equate the bible to myths. You know that many people don't believe that. But you do. Fine and dandy. Why do you care?"

Why are you asking me this? Why not ask the person who wrote this letter why he thinks anyone else cares? After all, he's writing about something he believes, but not all join him.

I only responded to this particular silliness for the reason I stated in my first response -- I think there is a long list of things that we ought to discuss besides what Jesus did or didn't do with some woman 2000 years ago. If you have a problem with this, that's J.T.B.

Thanks for the response nemo.

Yes, I do know about hobbies. But most people don't make their hobby into something antagonistic towards other people's beliefs. If you see an article about coin collecting, I would guess that you don't feel compelled to post about how their coin collections are wrong or silly do you? Or that yours are so much better because you have a degree of knowledge or insight that they lack. Coin collecting is measurable. Some coins are more valuable than others. Religious beliefs, however, are not. Your beliefs are nobetter than anyne elses, except to you.

And I am asking you the question, nemo, because you post and write regularly. This is the first letter I have seen from this guy. Not so with you.

And nemo, I do not have a problem with anything you say or do, honestly. I was merely curious.

You say that there are a long list of other things to discuss than the foundations of some people's religion. Fair enough. But again my question arises why you always seem to get involved in such discussions and write your own letters on that topic.

swanks,
"Yes, I do know about hobbies. But most people don't make their hobby into something antagonistic towards other people's beliefs."
i believe you have nailed it, he does always seem to makes comments that denigrate Christian tenets.i think your analogy to coin collecting was excellent. i also think nemos "hobby" of trying to antagonize Christians is a sad use of his time, but to each his own.
i am reminded of this :
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

I've said it once and I'll say it again -- I purely hate this bloody "typekey" system you newspaper people have added to this blog. It truly sucks, and it ruined a good 10 minutes of thinking and typing.

"Some coins are more valuable than others. Religious beliefs, however, are not. Your beliefs are nobetter than anyne elses, except to you."

FYI, I did a little research into the archives here. Over the past year, I have submitted 7 letters that touch on religion. 2 were on religious efforts to restrict science. 2 were on religious influences in politics. One was on the "right to die" ruling by the Supreme Court. One was on religious instruction in public schools. One praised the concept of freedom of religion. IMO, the overarching idea behind my letters is an effort to keep religious nuts from harming the public sector.

"You say that there are a long list of other things to discuss than the foundations of some people's religion."

Gee whiz. I thought for sure I was responding to a letter that complained that a novel contradicted the Book of Revelation. Which is a silly thing to worry about, and it has been silly every time similar letters have appeared. I don't mind folks thinking that a novel is the "work of Satan" as one other letter writer put it, but to bother us with that tripe is silly and I think it's normal for a person to say "I think that's silly."

And regarding coins -- a couple of weeks ago, on the Dianne Rheem (sp?) show on WFDD, she had a supposed coin expert as a guest. This "expert" tried to describe the St Gaudens $20 gold piece, saying that it was 5 inches across and weighed about a pound. You better believe she heard from coin collectors, and I would have been on the line at the time if I'd had a phone. I like to respond to things that interest me and express my opinions... if it's all the same to you, that is.

I did not realize that one's atheism automatically disqualified them from posting about a religious issue. If this is the case, does the fact that most of you who speak aganist abortion are MEN disqualify you from offering an opinion because you are not able to become pregnant and give birth? Or do the rules change because it is you who wants to offer the opinion?

Nemo, sometimes Typekey will delete and entire post and tell you to log back in. This happens particularly when you haven't posted something for 30 min or so.

I figured out a way to get around this problem. Copy your entire post before hitting the "Post" button. Then if Typekey bounces you out you can paste it back.

Buz, this is a great LTE for Biblical passages. Go get em :)

It is said that you should never discuss religion or politics..my two favorite subjects for discussion. This is why I love blogging. Also have learned to copy and paste or lose a long comment.

Like Yvonne, I don't care what Jesus' sexual orientation or sex life or no sex life was. It doesn't change my love of his words.

It does bother me to see the Bible used to prove point after point, many of which are hurtful to God's children. Many things are symbolic and can be interpreted many ways. The spirit of the Bible is what matters to me. Love one another, this is the greatest commandment. It seems to me that some worship the Bible instead of God.

Nemo, I am sorry you don't have God to bring peace to your heart. God's love is a comfort to me, and if I'm wrong, believing in his love has made my life on earth happier. Also, what makes you a good person? I believe it that of God in you.

"I did not realize that one's atheism automatically disqualified them from posting about a religious issue."

Yvonne, this happens all the time. A couple of months ago, I wrote an essay that got printed in the "Faith Matters" feature of the Saturday paper. The reaction by folks who wrote in was all about "how DARE you print something from an atheist?" Not a WORD got through that addressed the content of my essay. It's as if my lack of belief in the supernatural completely overshadows any value that my thoughts might otherwise have. That is honestly a puzzling thing to me, and a frustrating thing as well. I would like to think that I could have thoughts that others would find of value. But it's a bit hard dealing with "why do you care?" responses all the flippin' time.

"Nemo, I am sorry you don't have God to bring peace to your heart. God's love is a comfort to me, and if I'm wrong, believing in his love has made my life on earth happier. Also, what makes you a good person? I believe it that of God in you."

Hi, Carol! It's nice to hear from you.

So far as things like love, comfort and happiness are concerned, I get those from family, friends, study of things I enjoy. I try to be a good person in my relations with others because I find it pleasant to do so. If others don't find my actions as pleasing, well that's their problem, and I'm happy to discuss the matter if needed.

I have many friends who believe as you, that God is omnipresent, working for good, even through someone like me. I disagree with that idea, but I'm sure that's no surprise to you. The fact that you believe that doesn't bother me any more than hearing that someone is praying the I become "enlightened." It's all part of life for me here in the Bible Belt.

Cheers!

"I would like to think that I could have thoughts that others would find of value. "...............

nemo if you will recall i've said on more than one occassion that i belive you to be an intelligent person who is well read on many subjects if you truly wish others to find your values (in this instance about religious matters) then i suggest you quit deliberately making it your main point to instigate a debate with Christians. i've seen you make your point without alienating others, continue in that vein and imo others will place greater value on your comments.

Finding Nemo......

I agree. I don't like this Typekey system either. Seems it always erases your work when they are longer posts....never the short ones. Always the best things I've written.....never the wing-it responses.

The bad thing is you never know when it's going to happen.

Well, I better stop writing before I lose the ability to write.

Oh, one other complaint: I have a hard time copying and pasting from other's comments. I know this can get abused sometimes but every once in a while it is an effective way of addressing individual statements. Kind of a line-item veto for the blog. Anyone else have this problem?

Well said Yvonne! Nemo, I am sorry that you don't have a relationship with Christ, but that does not mean I fell you don't have the right to address religious letters on this BLOG which is here and open to everyone. I don't think most here would like it very much if they couldn't talk smack about Bush because they don't believe he won that first election.

I thought the LTTE was a little retarded. Why did the N&R feel that this was an appropriate use of this letter. I think they could have asked the person to do an article and print it that way.

It has been a problem, YD, since we went to typekey. It is, in all likelihood, problematic for all of us. There are ways but all involve too much hassle, for me anyway. What I miss most is spell-check in this program.

Buz,

As Carol said, nemo's atheism does not bother me nor does his lack of belief in God affect my relationship with God. What I wonder is why you would think nemo is being confrontational when he posts his opinions. I do not see his posts to be antagonistic either. It seems to me he is just engaging in discussion as you or I.

If you think he is deliberately posting his opinion to get under the skin of Christians and some Christians have voiced disagreement with you, perhaps you need to ask yourself why he gets to you so badly. Why are you taking it so personally?

David, I can't believe you didn't get chastised by everyone here. I found your observation rather humorous.

ECUman, good inference/extrapolation! I wish you'd post more often!

nemo, you state your views clearly, even if there's a little bit of sarcasm thrown in and they are valid and you have every right to express them. I think the faith you display regarding what you believe to be true is admirable, because it takes real faith to be an athiest. You have the strength of character and the faith to believe that humanity is the strongest force in the universe and that religion is just myth. After living on this earth for 47 years, I can't believe that there isn't a force smarter or stronger than humanity in this world.

About the ltte, The DaVinci Code was released on May 19, and here it is almost July. Can't the N&R find something else to print letters about?

yvonne,
nemo being atheist doesn't affect my relatonship with God either.
" I do not see his posts to be antagonistic either. "........
antagonism:
Pronunciation: an-'ta-g&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 a : opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle b : actively expressed opposition or hostility

i believe b) is the generally understood definition of antagonism. so i believe the word antagonistic is appropriate here b/c nemo has actively expressed his opposition and imo demonstrated hostility as well, i.e. " So now we're worried about which is the more reliable compendium of historical facts -- a work of fiction or a collection of mythological writings from 2000 years ago? There must not be any true problems left for us to discuss, I guess. We truly have reached Valhalla! Praise Odin!! "

Main Entry: hos·til·i·ty
Pronunciation: hä-'sti-l&-tE
Function: noun
1 a : deep-seated usually mutual ill will b (1) : hostile action (2) plural : overt acts of warfare : WAR
2 : conflict, opposition, or resistance in thought or principle

it is my opinion that nemo has deep seated ill will towards Christianity ( therefor towards Christains in general ), i believe he demonstrates opposition and resistance to the thought and principle of Christianity. so here again i believe the wording is appropriate.

you asked "Why are you taking it so personally?"

i recon i would have to say it is an idiosyncrasy, i.e. i am hyper sensitive to the manner in which nemo denigrates my belief in God and his general disregard for the feelings of other Christians.
i would suspect there are some things which might "get under your skin" that very well may not bother me at all, but that in no way invalidates your right to feel that way.
i know i play right into the hand of nemo, for i truly believe he is inflamatory towards Christainity just to get the pot stirred up and sits back and enjoys the aggravation he is causing. he seems very well versed on other subjects but so unprepared to bring any value or insight into scriptural teachings.

PhillipA:

Thanks for the kind words. I wish I could afford more time to post, but I can't afford to be unemployed either! Been there, done that!

Buz,

Thank you for your civil reply. Yes, you are quiet right that some things get under my skin that may not bother others much, if any. And we all have our passions, interests and agendas.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about nemo's posts since I, as a Christian, do not feel threatened, insulted or otherwise offended by them. Sorry this is such a sore spot for you. Both of you are intelligent men who could present some interesting dialogue and exchange of beliefs.

I'm with phillipa on this ltte. Been there, done that. Besides, I fail to understand why a novel or movie that has been discussed to death has any bearing on one's relationship with our Creator.

Yvonne,

I actually believe that it has been a positive thing that this movie came out into theaters. It has led to many discussions with people who really didn't know what to believe. Many folks I talked to who read the book bought Brown's theories hook, line, and sinker.

With the release of the movie, it has created a buzz that has given us the opportunity to refute most of what Brown says with historical evidence. I think the sensationalism and dumbing down that movies bring to almost any literary work also helps drive home the fact that this is NOTHING more than a work of fiction.

I am not a censor and I have no problem with people viewing this film as long as they know that the film is "for entertainment purposes only". I will not pay to view the film because I will not put money into Brown's pocket because I personally think his book is sacreligious and meant to discredit Jesus Christ.

I've generally enjoyed most of Tom Hanks's works and absolutely LOVED his co-star in the movie 'Amelie' and others I've seen with her.

I must admit that my view of them and Ron Howard now has been forever tainted by their participation in this film.

Buz:

I appreciate your passion for God. Nemo is doing exactly I expect from an unbeliever (Nemo, no offense is intended to you by this remark) and that does not offend me one bit nor do I feel threatened by his comments or opinions. My duty as a Christian is to always be ready to give a defense for what I believe (1 Peter 3:15-16) and to be civil about it. Being ready means a lot of study of the Word and other resources. I try to work at it every day so I am ready when necessary. Unfortunately, time contraints do not permit me to respond as often as I would like. I enjoy a civil dialogue and you and Nemo usually provide that for me when I have the time to join in. Have a great weekend and Independence holiday.

YD,

There are many lost souls out there looking for a "perfect fit" belief. Religious fanatics have made religion a total turn-off for some of these lost souls. Therefore, if this movie or novel starts them on a journey toward searching for/seeking answers, I guess it has served as more than just entertainment.

Since I have a firmly established relationship with God, I found the book (haven't seen the movie) to be highly entertaining. It didn't, however, have any bearing on my beliefs.

Sometimes one person cannot see something from all angles. So, you are right. Discussion about most anything can be a positive step toward enlightment. Here's to positive dialogue!

Sorry folks,

But a bunch of books written decades after Jesus supposedly died isn't proof of anything. The fact is no one knows if the Bible holds any accuracy or not. You may believe Jesus was never married, but you certainly don't know!

Anyway, the Bible can easily be shown to contain numerous errors and contradictions.

Why believe something that cannot be proven? Saved again. Is that anything like a twice baked potato? lol.

yvonne,
i guess it boils down to perspective.

ECUMAN,
it is always good to hear from you....grace & peace..............

buz

Tahnks, Markand I, too, enjoyey by comic brilliance.

"Typekey will delete and entire post and tell you to log back in ... a way to get around this problem [is to] copy your entire post before hitting the "Post" button. Then if Typekey bounces you out you can paste it back. "

That works - but you can also just re-log in, then hit the back key - usually you'll find your post on the previus screen, and then meed only type in the security code.

typical redneck preacher who doesn't realize that the early church threw out most 'books' of the bible and heacily edited the ones they accepted to fit their purpose and who cannot understand that a book is fiction NOT written by his perception of a devil. He is to be pitied.

This discussion is as worthless as discussing Star Jones leaving The View!! What is the point?

How can a book that is total fiction threaten the faith of true believers?
How can Ron Howard and Tom Hanks be villified for this movie----it is a freaking movie!
Get over it.

If your faith is a shaky thing, then don't go see the movie. If you rely on absolutes, you are already set up for disappointment, so move on with your life or try to get one!

Be glad that movies like this can be made! Don't become what the radical muslims have become---remember the cartoon on Muhammed???

Well, I have neither read the book or seen the movie. I have heard that the movie presents itself as fiction in a "disclaimer" at the beginning. I believe the book is listed in the FICTION section of libraries and book stores. So, why the fuss?

As others have already stated in some form/fashion; if this begins dialogue on the Christian faith, good! One need not worry about one's own faith because of this book and/or movie. If one's faith is that shallow, then what kind of faith is it to begin with?

Regarding the posts of nemo, I find it intellectually stimulating, curious, and sometimes antagonizing to me. I know nemo and have met him. Nemo's Atheism and my Christian faith did not "clash." We had good friendly conversation. Each respected the other for the POV of the other. While there is disagreement in the "faith" perspective, we do not let that get in the way of a friendship. That would be useless and futile.

Plus, as a Christian, I am to treat EVERYONE as I want to be treated and to treat EVERYONE as if those people are Jesus the Christ. So, I need to strive more each day to do that. Sadly, I never seem to be able to do it as I wish. So, I just remind myself continually that I must be respectful of others and to remember, "that of God in everyone."

Shalom

Darryl,
As usual, you make great points.
Thanks for your post.