News-Record.com

I think the LTE has some valid points. I don't think students should be forced to say the pledge. I said it by rote for years until I realized what I was saying. I was pledging to a flag, an inantimate object. A piece of cloth. I have allegiance to our country. I have allegiance to God. I do not need to say it out loud for it to be true.

I also do not believe in prayer in school. I would like for a minute of silence to start the day. One could pray, meditate, or just center down for the day.

As to the flag itself. I remember when it was flown with pride and rules. We put it up in the morning, we took it down at night. If it became worn, it was replaced. I remember the emotions I felt at a special event when we all looked at the flag and the national anthem was played. Now you see flags everywhere. Car lots have them by the dozen. They are placed in flower pots, on shirts, on cans, on stamps, and on cars. The stars and stripes are used to spell out radio stations. Sometimes less is more.

"At the end of it, we should restore the straight arm salute and the shout, "Victory! Hail!"

I know the beginning of this letter is in jest, but it's hackneyed. This ain't Nazi Germany Mr. Johnson, contrary to what you and DeamonDeacon believe.

Not sure what type of attorney this guy is, but I'll remember not to use him for anything. He may double my fees if he knows I'm a conservative :)

I do agree with his idea of teaching our children the Bill of Rights.

While Mr. Johnson makes a good point about our freedoms, grounded in constitutional freedoms, he, like many others, ignore the responsibilities that come with our rights. Let's start to focus as a people more on our "responsibilities" as citizens, rather than always crowing about our "rights" as citizens. Do our rights ever need to be "earned"? Does the exercise of our rights ever result in the loss of rights by others, as Gandhi said?

Following is quoted by
Guy Riekeman, DC in Dynamic Chiropractic
October 19, 1998, Volume 16, Issue 22.

"H.G. Wells once wrote to Gandhi requesting an endorsement for a piece he had written on human rights. Ghandi rejected the opportunity, saying he was not committed to human rights. Astounded, Wells wanted to know for what purpose Gandhi had spent his life in social protest. Ghandi's response: human responsibility. Any group that demands its rights does so at the loss of the rights of some other group or social structure. Soon, an organization or society will be torn apart and destroyed as each person fights for their rights. Ghandi commented that whatever rights we enjoy should be the result of the responsibilities we've committed to."

And, from February 28, 2005
The Objectivist’s Corner - Rights vs. Responsibilities

People in the United States today have this thing about their “rights”. They believe that, if the Constitution tells them they have a right, then that’s the end of the story. One of the most fundamental things Americans make a mistake about is that they deserve these rights unearned. We’re a nation of people who believe in the reward rather than the work. Who wants to put in a 40-hour work week when we can hit the lottery and be set for life? When we can go on television to a remote locale and screw fifteen other people over for the chance to win a million dollars? And why should we work for our rights when they’re spelled out in the Constitution?

Well, some things were considered so basic that it never occurred to the Founding Fathers to put them in the Constitution. And that is, you cannot have rights if you do not accept the responsibility that comes along with those rights. You have the right to vote; you have the responsibility to vote. You have the right to free speech; it is your responsibility to exercise that free speech responsibly. Gandhi once said that whatever rights we enjoy should be the result of the responsibilities we’ve committed to. And I think it’s time for some people to accept their responsibilities as ardently as they’ve embraced their rights.

The headline is so correct. Flag waving does not mean one is more patriotic than another. Great Editorial Cartoon today with Congress wrapped in the flag--take a look.

I like the points made, personally.

As a Christian, I WILL NOT recite the pledge of allegiance as that would be anethema for me to do so. I own nor owe any allegiances except that to God. If any has a problem with this, that is the problem of that person. I just happen to be a Christian living in a country that has great freedoms. I did not choose the country in which to be born. I did choose my faith tradition and strive to follow it succinctly.

I believe many could learn much from reading the Bill of Rights. Sadly, I do not believe that is going to happen any time soon though.

Shalom

Mr Johnson:

I guess they had to identify you as an attorney so that we wouldn't be surprised at your idiotic logic. So we are the Fascists in the world because we are taught to be proud Americans. I said the pledge and never had the uncontrollable urge to over run Poland or gas Jews. I spent 9 years in the military, on our side (sorry!).

All wars are unnecesary to people like you. All we have to do is give in to Nazis, Communists, Islamic terrorists, and derange liberals! But being a lawyer you operate from an unusual perspective. You think you are smarter than the rest of us, rather than just being more devious. I understand, though, that it was a lawyer who was responsible for the invention of one of our most useful tools, the corkscrew. The lawyer was asked to draw a straight line and soon we had the corkscrew!

Tony Moschetti

Moschetti is the most "partisan" of all who post here, as He would vote for Attilla the Hun if he had an "R" by his name. Tony, you may cast aside the bill of rights and talk of patriotism, but yours is NOT the kind that made this country great--you seek to destroy not only the writer, but all attorneys. Why? Because they do not share your myopic view of the world. Moschittie, have you ever had a comment that did not include the word "liberal" to describe anyone who disagrees with you? Your days of commenting on AM radio station WKEW were so filled with hate mongering that I will never forget them. And by the way, you know where you can put that corkscrew, don't you!

I like the idea of regular reading the Bill of Rights - a little bite at a time,

'cause I'm a curious dog and just for fun ('cause it too durn hot for my lazy bones), I looke up the history for Neo's favorite site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

Here're some high points, picked to stir the blog:

"The Pledge of Allegiance was written by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy ... [as a marketing] campaign to sell American flags to public schools .."

How 'bout them apples!

"Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue"

.. sieg heil indeed!

... including a neat story where the early hand-jesture looked like the sieg heil, and that was change circa Big One II.

Interesting reading, imho. Sadly, I now have a little less respect for the Pledge ... is nothing beyond Market Forces?

if one where to claim to be Christian.....what circumstance would warrant that person stating that prayer in any instance is inappropriate ? personally i can be in conversation with you and while in that conversation i can be praying at the same time but you would never know it....for it isn't necessary to bow you head and close your eyes to speak with God (i'm not saying this is wrong) and i suspect i'm not alone in being able to do this. while i don't believe prayer or the pledge of allegiance should be mandated in school (or any place for that matter)i certainly am not against it. i just can't find an inappropriate time to speak with God !

...now the Bill of Rights .. there's a sacred document, actually there're are a bunch:

The Magna Carta (circa 1215) required the king to renounce certain rights, respect certain legal procedures and accept that the will of the king could be bound by law.

Imagine that .. leaders being bound by law.

English Bill of Rights 1689: "largely a statement of ... rights .. citizens and/or residents of a free and democratic society ought to have."

Our very on own United States Bill of Rights: "explicitly limit the Federal government's powers, protecting the rights of the people by preventing Congress from abridging freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of religious worship, and the right to bear arms, preventing unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and self-incrimination, and guaranteeing due process of law and a speedy public trial with an impartial jury."

Interesting that pretty much every stated right is currently being contested.

JDR,
I agree that the Bill of Rights should be read and digested regularly. I also believe that many who support the current onslaught against the Constitution and Bill of Rights, would not do so if they gave prudent thought to what the long term will look like. Some who post here support some of the illegal wire taps, surveillance being done on our own soil, because it has been sold as "necessary" in time of war. History has proven that to be untrue time and time again. From FDR to Nixon, that excuse has been used. I can remember Daniel Ellsberg's Pentagon papers and how Nixon sent the IRS after all of his "Enemies List". The pendulum has swung back toward that time, and hopefully, it will land back in the middle. Hopefully.....hopefully.

DD, the question about the pendulum swinging back to the middle; will either of us be alive to see that time? Or, will we have been swept away in some terrorist roundup?

Shalom

Darryl,
We need politicians on both sides to stand up to the radical fringes that are driving the discourse today. America is hungry for a voice of reason, and I hope someone can rise to the fore before the slime machine begins to "Swift Boat" them. As we have seen with McCain and Kerry, it matters not what party they are in.

Sometimes the pendulum has to swing too far for it to move toward the middle. I think we are seeing it in uncharted territory to the right of mainstream America. Pray for the moderates of our day to prevail.

Great letter Mr. Johnson! I think you are absolutely right. Forced, repetitive recitation of any pledge smacks of fascism. It makes me feel like a drone or something. Nationalism and patriotism are definately not the same thing. Darryl, Carol, DD & JDR, I enjoyed your responses too.

I'm glad this letter was about the Pledge of Allegiance rather than the Star-Spangled Banner. Otherwise, Tony Moschetti would have been forced to defend the writings of the "devious" lawyer, Francis Scott Key.

I grew up reciting the pledge of allegiance in school as a child. I did not learn to worship the flag or anything.

As a child, reciting that pledge gave me a since of pride and patriotism in my country as well as hope for what our country could be (One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all) It made me feel that I was a part of something special: America.

We studied the Bill of Rights in school pretty thorougly as well. I'm not sure what they are teaching nowadays regarding the Constitution.

This letter mentions part of the darker side of youth: the pressure to conform. I'm sorry, but the Jehovah Witness child or the child of an Atheist is going to catch hell regardless of whether they pledge allegiance to the flag or not. Should we end every tradition because someone might feel left out? Okay, let's get rid of Halloween, Valentine's Day, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Black History Month, and any other celebration or tradition we might have.

As far as prayer in school, I can never remember having an organized prayer in school. Even when it was legal. At football games and graduation was the only time I remember hearing prayer connected with school in any way, shape and form. And I can never remember anyone saying "repeat after me".

YD,
I can certainly remember! I even had to learn the 23rd Psalm by memory in the second grade! Not in church related school, but public school.
Those who adamantly support putting prayer etc back in public schools do not understand that they will cheapen what they hold near and dear. There will be those who have not been reared in a "Christian" home who will ridicule their deepest held beliefs, so why don't they leave it alone and work on EDUCATION in schools? That's my position. For what it's worth.

dd,

now that you mention it, I too learned the 23rd Psalm in school. I would say it was around the 2nd grade. My memory isn't too clear. We didn't learn it in our regular classroom but in one of the 'trailers' and aside from our normal coursework. I'm about 99% sure it was an elective thing and we received free new testaments once we were able to recite it.

I think it is a beautiful passage and there are many beautiful poems and writings in the Bible. From a literature perspective, I can see a use. Not sure I'd consider public school the place for it, though. I've got no desire to have organized prayer meetings in school. If a student wishes to pray silently, then it offends nobody and is just as effective.

There is a fine line between Freedom of Religion and Freedom from Religion. It's a big gray area that will always leave room for debate.

For all of those advocating prayer in school, remember this: Muslims pray towards Mecca several times a day. You want your child to be in a class that has to be stopped so a Muslim child can properly pray?

Good points, folks. I believe Jesus taught us to go into a closet to pray and not say Lord, Lord, like the Pharasies for they had their reward. I love the statement that as long as schools test, there will be prayer in school.

I don't understand folks who need to say Under God in a pledge, have In God We Trust on our money (I seldom read my money), have prayer in schools, Ten Commandments on walls, etc.

We had devotions on the loud speaker every morning when I was in school (in the dark ages). I don't remember ever really listening or being influenced. Going to church, being around good people, seeing people being helped, seeing how judgment and unkind words could cause pain...these things shaped my life.

I agree, Carol. Devotions were announced over the intercom each day as was the pledge. We would stand by our desks with our right hand in the vicinity of where we thought our heart was. We closed our eyes during devotion.

In the lunch room we would have class prayer before chowing down. There is no doubt Christian influence dominated everything we did.

As an adult, I became disenchanted and disgusted with organized religion. I saw so much hypocricy in it. And although I never lost faith and trust in God, I did mankind. I disassociated with any particular church and started on my long spiritual journey alone.

What I have learned is actions do speak louder than words. As I said in another thread, seeing God and goodness in the lives of others has impressed me more than anything. And it serves to encourage me to be a better example of Christianity.

Children don't need to recite the pledge or pray in school in order to grow in the right direction. They need love, attention, discipline, nurturing and a steady diet of God from their parents, not the school. It is not the responsibility of schools to provide religious beliefs. That should come from the ones responsible for making the life.

Carol & Yvonne,
I have great admiration for your posts. Thanks!