News-Record.com

Gee, if only Algore had been the beneficiary of a few more hanging chads, we would have a president that could control the weather?

No. We would have a president that signed the useless 'Kyoto treaty' and made liberal environmentalist wackos like Valerie Putney feel good about businesses being taxed out the a$$ under the guise of 'controlling' global warming. What a farce.

You know what really scares me? The fact that there are people in the world and especially in this country that are gullible enough to think man can control 'global warming' IF... IF it is occurring at all.

Liberal politicians have discovered the gullibility of the environmentalist wackos and are exploiting it to the max.

On the other hand, if the true president, Gore, had been in charge ...

Now, there's a scary thought...

While I'm pretty liberal in many areas, this woman just comes across as nuts. "True president"? Gimme a break, Valerie.

You know what really scares me? The fact that there are people in the world and especially in this country that are so stupid they let others decieve them with bogus "too expensive" rhetoric; bold face lies claiming no good opportunities for solid economic growth with great jobs that developing technologies would provide - needed regardless of one's position on the root cause - including an incentive for kids to study and work for a future beyond football stardom and failing that, winning the lottery.

IMO, Global Warming advocacy has become a popular social behavior. It's very uncool to question the validity of the science used in making the claim, it makes one "unhip" to do so. To suggest that it's just part of the normal cycle of things is hearesy.

To ignore millions of years of geologic data that prove climate change is cyclical, in favor of 200 years of observation that *claim* it's happening too fast because of the industrial revolution is like making a detailed psychological evaluation of an individual based on a 3 second interview.

The ultimate goal of GW advocates are political and social behavior modification.

This is one of those LTE's that makes me spill my coffee.

200 years Hugh? I hear some of these nuts claiming it's only in the last 20-30 years, but it somehow got better from 1992-2000.

I've also heard references to the Time issue in the early 70's predicting global freezing. I searched their archives and cannot find it. Probably a deliberate reason for that.

Look at info on some of the hottest temperatures in the US. Was it last year, this year? No it was in 1913!! Guess what else? I was in July and August of all months!!! How about the dust bowl years in the 1930's?

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MichaelLevin.shtml

BTW, all CA and the UK are doing is sharing information. There is no binding agreement, no Kyoto, between them.

These doomsday wackos are always wrong. Remember when they predicted the population bomb? Wrong again, some countries like Germany are offering subsidies for women to have more children. Global starvation? Wrong again. The world has plenty of food (too much in fact in the US). Some people are starving true, but it's because of political situations like Sudan and Zimbabwe.

I've come to somewhat dread July/August, because it is peak time for the global warming wackos to wreak their doom and gloom predictions and for people like Valerie to swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

I do agree on one thing: perhaps the Federal Govt. has outlived it's usefulness. I'm not advocating getting rid of the govt., but would like to see significant reforms including spending cuts and term limits for senators and representatives.

Dan,glad you brought up the sharing of info between California and the UK. One of the reasons for it is the bind that the EU countries have found themselves in after signing the useless Kyoto agreement. If Blair can find ways around the current agreement he may be able to keep the UK out of industrial disarray.
With the European experiment of a Kyoto-inspired carbon-trading system slipping into chaos countries like the US and Australia, who did not sign the worthless Kyoto Agreement can concentrate efforts on more reliable and productive ways to meet enviormental obligations. This is part of Blairs endevours with CA and hoping that he can get the plan changed by making advances outside the agreement. (For infor on carbon-trading see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading)

The Kyoto approach, as adopted by the EU, was always slanted heavily in favour of self-interest. New Zealand and Canada have discovered this to be a great cost as they look for an escape route after facing heavy penalties for not meeting emission targets. This taking advantage of others for their own gain worked for Europe because the closure of old-world industry in the East was always sufficient to offset the excesses of their Western neighbors. Ambitious growth forecasts helped make sure there was plenty of buffer in the system. The result has been wild volatility and an effective collapse of the system. It seems that the French are demanding that credits not spent in the first round be carried over into the second phase from the end of 2007 will, if allowed, be a recipe for further chaos and little environmental benefit. So now we see a tempest brewing in the teapot for those who adopted the Kyoto farce and it seems that no one is happy at the moment. The US and others were wise in not signing this scam of a document meant only to take advantage of those countries with advanced technology and industrialization. Every time the US didn't meet the expectations or goals of the Kyoto rules heavy fines would have to be paid out. Would these fines go toward improving the enviroment in the US? No, by no means no. The money would go to those countries who are lagging behind, such as the EU countries, India, etc to boost their production and industrial development while raising the cost on American industry. If you think out sourcing is bad now just imagine what it would be under the rules of Kyoto. Those who raised such a hue and cry when the US turned down the Kyoto scam should be taking a closer look at what it has created and be thankful that somebody had enough sense to say NO. Of course there will always be those who think that the US should cave in to every wild hair scam on the enviroment that comes along. Thanfully there will always be those who can see a scam for what it is and avoid it like the plague

Those who came up with the farfetched ideas of carbon trading are fast finding out that it will not fly in the countries they sought to penalize through their scam. Did anyone really expect such a farce to really work that was planned by a group of countries/states that can't even agree on a standard railroad line guage? Did anyone actually expect anything the UN insists is the best thing since sliced bread to actually work? The US can be glad they didn't buy into this scam and should continue to show that progress toward cleaning up the enviroment can be made by consent not by politics.
Now all the enviornuts will attack and whine and cry without doing any type of real study and call this all wrong, but that's ok at least there are still some smart enough to recognize a scam when we see it.

We haven't seen anything yet, Dan. Wait until the first hurricane makes landfall. This will bring out the chicken little crowd in force.

BTW, I saw where the 'experts' have downgraded their forecasts this year and have said that perhaps this WON'T be the worst year in history for hurricanes. Talk about backpeddeling...
Maybe the premier of Algore's movie has had an unexpected effect on the weather. This is just as believable as the 'kyoto treaty' having an effect on the weather.

To each their own, but you fellows remind me of the crowd that insists smoking has no harmful effects. How can one take poison into their bodies without some negative effects? Nicotine is used to dust crops with in some instances.

How then can we spew all the environmental poisons into the air (which by the way were not around 2000 years ago) and not expect some kind of harmful side effects. Some of you seem to forget the "cause and effect" law.

My statement has nothing to do with the Kyoto agreement, just common sense.

Yvonne, thanks for the CS (common sense) statements!

Please email me Yvonne as I need to ask a private question.

Shalom

we need a letter like this every once in a while to remind us that there really are kooks out there.

"On the other hand, if the true president, Gore, had been in charge ..." Let me point out that George W. Bush won not once, but twice, and he did it fair and square. But if by some catastrophe Mr. Gore had been elected, I would suggest that we would still be waiting for an effecfive response to September 11, 2001. Instead, the Taliban has been driven from Afghanistan, and a dictator harboring terrorist training camps has been deposed.

I will also remind you that the reason the US is not a signatory of the Kyoto Treaty is that Congress - during the Clinton administration - refused to ratify it. The document was slanted to favor thrid world countries, allowing them to pollute horribly, but would tax American businesses if they did not cut back on emissions.

That being said, I really enjoy a letter like this. The fact that there are people STILL losing sleep over the 2000 election delights me to no end!

Well it seems to many of you are missing my point, which surely was guided by the hand of little-g god.

I'll say it again ... read slowly please:

It doesn't matter. There is a world wide market for energy savings devices and America is wasting time debating a moot point - missing a golden opportunity to get ahead of the curve.

Frankly the lack of action pisses me off - I'm not talking about signing any treaties, I'm taking about sitting around puffing a cigar while the termites eat your foundation.

If you want to see, as MPR says, "the EU countries, India, etc to boost their production and industrial development while raising the cost on American industry", then keep your heads in the sand.

Continue to argue the fiscal folly of investing in tooling to cut spiral grooves in barrels, and you'll feel rifled slugs rip your flesh from a quarter mile away, while your musket proves an ineffective deterrent.

A few like companies like GE are beginning to study the benefits of the Minié system .. to bad others are not motivated.

Off topic but since Nic mentioned it - I didn't know that the Taliban has been driven from Afghanistan .. "

Thanks for the news, Nic!, Those lame stream media folks just keep distorting things.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0508/p01s02-wosc.html?related

" ... or that a dictator harboring terrorist training camps has been deposed ... " One interesting theory on this is terrorists were being trained to overthrow a future invasion, like say, I dunno ... America in 2003 ... ?

Another possibility is they were being trained to drive airplanes into tall buildings ... wait they were mostly Saudi. How about backpack bombs in the London subway .. wait they were British. How about backpack bombs on the Madrid Trains ... (Algerian, Morroco, Spaniard, Egyptian) ... hang on, we'll connect the dots sooner or later.

and just for fun:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yfrQalpmdqk

JDR,
You are the only one making any rational sense here. We can either put on our "thinking caps" and innovate, or we can sit around moaning about flag burning and gays getting married. Looks like the only "kooks" out there are the ones who ignore science rather than look to use scientific innovation.

JDR, the cost to American Industry and the flight to out-source was brought about in a large part by the eco-terriorist who wanted results yesterday and were willing to sell out to any group or plan that would suit their agenda. In doing so they effectively hamstrung our industry and our economy. If there are those who fail to see the correlation to this they indeed they have their heads in the sand. Thankfully we did not sign the Kyoto farce. While the rest struggle and quibble about who gets to pollute more by buying carbon shares the US and Australia can move forward in developing methods of reduction of the gasses that the Kyoto supposedly addressed without being hamstrung by a bunch of socialist. GE is making progress as well as others and we will see who survives the better. The socialistic Kyoto farce and those who joined in the "joyful song" and now are crying to get out of it or those who just said NO Thanks we can do it with out the UN and the socialist handcuffs on.

Well it must be my head in the sand .. 'cause I saw the flight to out-source brought about by the rush for cheapness (China) - and the faux promise that through training, displaced factory workers were gonna get upscaled jobs like Computer Geeks. Soon those jobs went to India. I gather there's another wave coming in BioTech, but meanwhile the turmoil is tearing things up.

I think it's like the Industrial Revolution, where machines too over the work of artisans - but the difference is the artisan could walk down the street and be trained to operate a lathe ... and factory work in China is a long swim.

I don't this we can stop it - that's probably not even desirable - but some honesty would help plan and work through the pain. Same as Energy Consumption - honesty would help motivate planning and spur innovation.

But hey, my head is in the sand.

James,
Again you are so right.
Outsourcing began because of labor costs, not because of pollution standards putting a stranglehold on industry. Of course big business was ready to blame it on that so they could quietly move the labor force offshore. It is the economics of labor, pure and simple. Any first year econ major could tell you that.

The few scientists who don't believe in global warming are employed by or in ancillary positions for the energy companies in the old U.S. of A.

We'll have to disagree on the eco-terriorists too. Are they wacko? Sure. Are their concerns totally without basis? No. Do some (not all) Companies rape and plunder for short term profit without consideration to long term affect? Say no to that and Your head is in the sand.

Is it possible to make a profit while considering the long term affect? I say yes because I've seen it both ways (although with the China Affect this has become much harder). You may disagree, and We'll have to agree to disagree.

And labor cost came because of what or at least in part to what? Cost of putting overly enhanced scrubbers on not only industrial exhaust stacks but on energy sourse stacks. Why, because the eco-whacko's want to drive anything that produces even the slightest amount of "evil gasses" out of business. Leave it to them and we'd all be riding horses and using oxen to pull wagons. Oh that is until they decided that the horses and oxen produce too much methane and cause litter on the road ways. When these folks get real instead of living in a fairy tale land something can then be accomplished concerning pollution. Until then it's just more expense , delays, higher fuel prices , higher commodity prices and more outsourcing.

Eco-terrorists? You can't be serious. A few wacko's bomb a ski resort or housing development and you get carte blanche to nullify every environmental cause known to man. I suppose you think the cianide leak in Bhopal was just "lamestream media" picking on the honest folks at Union Carbide. If you honestly believe that had anything to do with outsourcing, then you really aren't paying attention.

And neocon has still never answered my numerous questions on what the possible motive would be for nearly every climatologist who isn't supported by someone with something to lose saying that GW is real and that we should reverse our course. Why would they all collude to do this if their only goal was, as you've said in the past, to put unnecessary tax burden on businesses who will pass their costs on to us. Just give me a reason to be skeptical and maybe I'll consider the possibility.

Hugh finally gives me a motive: social and behavior modification. So if I am to understand you, Hugh, the reason that thousands of scientists have cited evidence of global warming is for social and behavior modification. Any chance you could explain that?

And for the rest of you on the same side as these two, I would ask you: How many scientists does it take to be convinced? And who has to be their spokesman? I realize that everything that Al gore has said is a lie, and Robert Kennedy Jr. just likes to hear the sound of his whiny, almost sickening voice. SO who does it need to be? Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Gale Norton, James Watt? Tell me how far up your Hummer's tailpipe are you lodged, because I don't know how much more overwhelming the evidence can get. And if it's going to take Dick Cheney to finally change your mind, then perhaps you should remove yourself from the discussion because you clearly have lost the capacity for rational judgement on this. However, if there is a possibility for reasoned thought, all you have to do is a few searches and he evidence is everywhere. Open your minds, the truth is all around.

BTW, the Taliban out of Afghanistan? Try reading a paper printed since 2003.

According to Mr. Produce's logic, ALL increases in commodity prices are due to environmentalists. That is so far off the wall, it doesn't even deserve comment. There is little or no evidence to support that, but then again, he never offers evidence to support his opinions.

C'mon Howie,
You know that the "lamestream Media" is behind all this talk of global warming---the same ones who exposed the administration usurping the constitution by use of ILLEGAL wiretaps and the same ones who broke the story of the torture prisons.
Now if FOXNews, Hannnity, O'Reilly, Vernon Robinson, Ann Coulter or Rush said we have global warming, THEN we can rest assured it is the truth!
Can't believe you'd fall for such a crock o'crap! Besides, according to Mr. Produce, commodity price increases are due to environmentalists wanting to put scrubbers on coal burning power plants. LOL

HowieG, I gave you my opinion as to the reason for all this hot air (couldn't resist) from the left in the last sentence of my first post. The gullible environmentalists are being egged on and exploited by politicians like Algore for political gain.

Again, for every source you can name that says global warming is man made and is a threat, I can show you one that says different. What's the point? And No, if Dick Cheney told me that global warming was indeed real and a threat to the world, I'd call him an environmental wacko too.

Neo,

So by your logic, there will be hundreds of scientists on the ballot this fall? I am asking why all of these scientists -- not environmentalists -- would "invent" this phenomenon for these politicians to exploit. Either they are running for office themselves, or they are somehow supported by these politicians. Otherwise they're risking their jobs by using faulty science. And I suppose you expect me to believe that a few politicians are out-spending the oil companies to generate phony science. Your logic is totally full of holes. You've admitted there is nothing that could convince you that global warming exists, so step aside and let reasonable people have this discussion -- people who aren't convinced that since there was once an Ice age, that nothing man can do will have any impact.

BTW, I asked you a couple of weeks ago for the names of ten scientists without oil-based agendas. I'm still waiting.

Hey ditto dummy where does at large equal ALL. Ditto learn to read and comprehend or go back to your farleft buddies and have a cup of latte. The statements in my first post are well documented by many sources and they are not hard to find. Just google and read about the carbon deal. You can find other sources as well by doing the same as I did and reading what was said. Of course if you are too lazy to do so then believe what you will and attempt to twist things to your way of thinking. It's normal and most folks understand that it's just the ditto dummy's way of doing things. Thus the name Ditto. Hey, Dan , didn't you originally give ditto dummy the name Ditto? I just felt it need a bit of claification since he seems to enjoy calling everyone else names but can't seem to take it when the tide turns. What a crying shame.

Howie, if you and like minded liberals want to worry about 'global warming' by all means, be my guest. I find it highly entertaining to watch them run around in circles and squawk about how the sky is falling. It's when they're in power that I begin to worry about the wackos.

As far as "stepping aside" I have as much right to state my views here as you or anyone else. Who died and left you in charge?

Howie G,
Don't say I didnt' warn you about the "brick wall" and the home bound! Heck, old neocon can't even give you right wing links to back up his argument. He's getting like Poor Old Mr. Produce--portraying his opinion as fact. No back up whatsoever.

Mr. Produce,
How's that "PROOF" you were going to come up with about me having a website and a blog? Kind of like O.J. looking for the "Real Killers"??
LOL!

Good morning Ditto Dummy. If you are so sure that there is no such evidence then why do you worry enough to keep bringing it up? Nervous?

Hey ditto , I thought you were going to ignore this "poor homebound" person. What farleft whacko gave you such great insight as to my physical condition. Allow me to assure you I am far from homebound. Limited perhaps by not being able to be in certain enviorments but certainly not homebound. Perhaps I should come to G'boro and then you could see just how homebound I am. Ahhh but that would make you nervous. I might call you in the middle of the night. I got better things to do than waste my time in the middle of the night calling you. Enjoy your weekend ditto! This "homebound" person is off to Bristol Tn for the wife's aunts birthday. I believe she is in her late 90's.

Produce,
At least you were smart enough to marry a much younger woman--she can take care of you!

Produce,

I'm calling you out, but YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT!

WHERE'S YOUR PROOF MR. PRODUCE? WHERE'S YOUR PROOF OF MY WEBSITE OR BLOG?

Glad you are getting out of the house for a while-----is this via your "wayback" machine or are you really going to Bristol!! LOL!

Neo,

I don't think anyone on the left has a monopoly on the chicken little syndrome. Did you go out and buy extra duct tape and plastic sheets when Tom Ridge told you to? How about the terror alert level -- what are the chances it gets bumped a notch this fall to coincide with election time? How about the "grave and gathering threat" stuff? What about the huge arrest a few weeks ago of the people who were going to blow up the Sears Tower (who turned out to be homeless, unemployed, and had as much capability to launch a terror campaign as I have to launch a space shuttle from my deck)?

So despite what you say, I think the fear campaign has worked pretty well for Rove et al for about seven years now.

And I don't claim to be in charge of this forum, however if you've admitted that the science you learned in junior high was the last word for you on all things climatic, then your opinions are not relevant to those of us who can accept that things can change and are open to new information. And if I hurt your feelings (which it sounds like I did), suck it up. You've said considerably worse to me, so I if you're waiting for my apology, get comfortable because it's going to be a long wait.

Well I've been at my brother's 50th bday party so had to sign off for a day.

You will love this DD. I also found out my nephew is gay!! At least he doesn't burn flags. Serious, we had a good discussion about it and my feelings for him are no different than before.

Howie, I won't speak for the others, but I'm not saying global warming doesn't exist. My point is that global warming and cooling has taken place over and again throughout the history of the earth. Again the hottest temps measured in the US were in 1913. I don't think all those Model T's had anything to do with it.

Human activities may contribute to it, but I don't subscribe to the sky is falling mentality and don't think a Kyoto treaty or CA & the UK agreement are going to stop it.

I've seen the doom & gloom predictions before about global freezing, the population bomb, the entire world starving, cheesburgers giving you cancer, you name it. Global warming falls into that same category.

I also agree that politicians and environmental wackos use global warming as a method to dictate our behavior and choices. Meanwhile algore flys around the world in private aircraft sucking up untold gallons of jet fuel and polluting the sky to cry about global warming. Meanwhile too, China, India and other countries who have no where near the pollution controls we do, they get a free pass.

As for the fear factor Howie, yep all sides use it. But I have much more fear of a terrorist detonating a chemical or nuclear device in NYC than fear of running my AC a little extra in July/August.

Dan,
Your comments are great ones. Your nephew is still your nephew no matter what. Glad to know your feelings for him did not change when he told you he was Gay. I have some friends in High Point who found out their son was Gay and have all but disowned him. As a father, I cannot imagine ANYTHING that would cause me to NOT love my children. My children could be serial killers and they would still have my unconditional love. Now, hopefully, a life of crime is not necessary to push the envelope, but I think you get my drift. These folks in High Point are nice, good, upper class people, but they have gone nuts over their son being Gay. The son is as nice a fellow as you could ever meet and he is a pillar in several civic and church organizations.
We probably have Gay people in my family, but as of now, I am unaware of any close family members. Like you, if any were to tell me they were, I would not love them any less.

What I don't understand is, why the issue is such a threat to so many people. There are far larger issues than being who are born Gay, to tangle with.

P.S. Glad your nephew wasn't burning a flag, or he'd be run out of town on a rail!

Dan,

This is the kind of reasoned debate I've been talking about. I think what gets lost inall the name-calling and finger-pointing is the fact that, despite the fact that it's Al Gore, maybe there is something to what he and all these scientists are saying. And until someone other than energy industry sponsored scientists tell me there's nothing wrong, I'm inclined to side with the folks who don't have as much to lose. So I ask repeatedly for the motives for this vast majority of scientists. Unless the solar panel lobby is out-spending oil and coal for faulty science.

And you cited the sky is falling rhetoric, and I can see why you might say that (I saw this week that bacon might give me stomach cancer). But all the hyperbole aside, I try to think of it like the ozone issue in the '80's. No one had to give up much, I don't have to pay $10/hour to run my car AC, and government and industry came up with a solution. The hole in the ozone has repaied itself,and no one's live got any worse.

And the thing that is so confounding to me is why so many people try to make this a partisan thing. Because AL Gore makes a movie, you'd think he's asking for gay scoutmasters in every town. And finally, no one is saying that the earth's temperature doesn't rise and fall because of natural reasons. But some folks (on this forum especially) treat the idea like they are mutually exclusive. Since the temperature changes naturally, then man can do anything they want with no effect. When in actuality, if what you and Hugh and others say is true, that the temp has risen because of natural cycle, isn't this all the more reason to make sure we don't make it worse? In other words, if we're at the top of the temp cycle, shouldn't we do everything we can to make sure we're not adding a couple of degrees? That's all I'm saying.

Thanks for your kind words DD. I also have a cousin who is gay, known about that for years, but finally got to meet her partner at a family reunion last month.

I have no problem with ordinary gay people who just want to live their lives. My problem lies with the militant ones who want to push their agenda on the rest of us.

Different subject:

Check out this Hillary link: just good humored fun.

http://www.michaelhodges.com/missing.html

Howie,
Not hurt- takes a lot more that that. I'm thick skinned.
Not awaiting an appology. Although I am comfortable- got the AC setting on 76*
Not relying on what science I had in jr. high. Relying mostly on the track record of politicians and their eagerness to exploit an issue like this for political gain. I remember growing up in the 50s when temps would reach 100* or more during the summer quiet often. No big deal then, no big deal now. The difference is now we have sleazy politicians aided by a media that shares their desire to see the left back in power. Everything else they have tried in the last decade and a half has failed. Why not seize on the natural temperature fluctuations of the earth to try and convince as many citizens as possible that man is contributing to it and it will destroy us if not halted? And what better way to halt it than electing the democrats?

No, you're not going to change my mind and I'm not even entertaining the idea that I will change yours. Just letting those like you know that there are many people who do not swallow what the 'scientists' say as gospel and believe me, I'm not the only one.

Come back when it's 75 or 80* in G'boro on new year's day and I will listen a little more attentively then.

Dan,
Great link! I'm no Hillary fan, so I love to see those.
Here's a link from today's paper where Jim Rosenberg skewers Skip Alston and Billy Yow---names changed to protect the innocent. Wait, Names changed to protect the two idiots!

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060806/NEWSREC0104/308060002/-1/NEWSREC020401

Hilary will be offered as blood sacrifice by her own party in the next few months. Wait and see.

Now, this letter is just sour grapes. Valerie is just pissed cause Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby conspired to leak her secret CIA agent identity. Oh, wait. That was Valerie PLAME.

Never mind.