News-Record.com

Although there are certainly exceptions in both categories, the basic impression I've gotten when dealing with my own children's education has been that the fundamental problem is that of excellent teachers being hamstrung by mediocre adminstrators.

It's not a lack of capability, but a major difference in priorities.

I totally agree that the situation needs to change.

Forget it Tom, the liberals who are in control of the teachers' unions will never let it happen. They prefer a dumbed down society to keep themselves in power. Just look at all the uproar when the idea of school vouchers is floated. Can't have parents deciding where and when to send their children to experience a true education with a picture of Jesus in the room or a copy of the ten commandments in front of the building now can we?

Tom,

You're very close to a great solution, but allow me to push you just a bit further.

Let's abolish public education altogether and have pure competition among private schools and independent-contractor teachers. The benefits of a true free market in education would be manifold.

neocon,

You whine about the public education system almost daily, but I've never seen you offer an alternative. How would you suggest we make our nation more equipped to handle the global competition our graduates face? Everyone is home schooled? How about we make education voluntary? What exactly is your answer?

And before you answer, do a little homework. Like Vernon Robinson, you cite teachers' unions as the source of our educataional abyss, yet neither of you seems to recognize that NC doesn't have teachers' unions. Sounds to me like you're parroting Rush or some equally competent windbag.

And on school vouchers, if you are against the government being involved in education, then how do you justify your desire for the voucher program?

"Let principals, groups of teachers and individual teachers strive to please their customers: families with children. Let them compete."

Thanks for the advice Mr. Perot. If you want your kids to go to a school modeled on a business, be my guest. This letter writer, like most politicians, wants to hold everyone accountable but students. They are all angelic little blank slates who the big bad adults are letting down. It's amazing how teachers get blamed first.

Politicians don't get votes if they tell the voters their children are lazy, disruptive and pathetically behind other countries in terms of aptitude. Then parents would have no one to blame for their shitty parenting. Battling bad students and their bad parents is the front line of the war to improve education. When suspension rates dramatically increase, you know we are getting on the right track.

To the morons who blame teacher unions, try that in another state. There are no teacher unions in North Carolina. Most unionized states have students who can actually pass their end-of-course tests without a curve.

Before you principled conservatives attack my statement, remember I am preaching about personal responsibility.

"It's amazing how teachers get blamed first"

I cannot see where the lte blamed teachers. Perhaps you were referring to neocon.

I agree that the school system and the education provided, as a whole, in our state is deteriorating.

I don't want to blame the individual teachers. There have always been good and bad teachers. I do blame the politicians and the administrators.

There may be some truth to blaming bad parenting. Yet, there have always been bad parents. Given the fact that the school system spends more time with kids than parents do during the week, I think it must shoulder a good portion of the blame.

I've looked into private schools in the area and quite frankly, I think it is ridiculous to pay $10,000 a year for elementary school education.

Then, I wonder, how much are we paying to educate our children in the public school system?

The basic premise of the LTE is good and for the most part correct. Thoughtful letter, and good points.
************
neoCON, once again shows he is a one tune jukebox. There is no problem in the world he cannot hang on "liberals" "liberalism" or "liberal thinkers".

As my good friend would say about neoCON, "he's a mile wide and an inch deep". In other words, he has NO substance, NO depth. If his posts weren't so lacking in substantive reasoning, one might mistake him as being Tony Mostschitti.

NEOCON:
If you want government out of education, why do you propose supporting religion with government money? Is having Jesus's picture in school more important than reading writing and arithmetic? Oh, that's right, you don't really care about education.
By the way, what was the highest level you attained in school?

Nit,

I respect your opinion but I think the quote said it all. Maybe you took it differently. I used to be a teacher before going into business on my own.

For at least 15 years, I have heard numerous polls and studies about teacher dissatisfaction and high turnover. They all indicate that the number one problem is discipline.

This is the fault of parents, not teachers, regardless of how many hours a day teachers spend with students. If your kid is disruptive, you should take them home and educate them yourself.

I don’t think private schools do much better in this state. SAT scores do not show dramatic differences from students in public schools. You probably would be wasting your money. They may be better disciplined and would probably get more individual attention. But again, it’s a problem with students, with society, not with the educators.

nitpicker,

Taxpayers pay more than $7,000 per year per child for public education in North Carolina. We aren't getting a very good return on our investment, are we? Contrary to what Howie said, vouchers do get the government out of education. With vouchers, parents can choose the educatonal vendor that they feel offers the best opportunity for their child. With the present system, the BOE decides where your child goes to school. They have the ultimate authority of student assignment.

The lte writer is dead-on with his analysis. Stevie talked about schools modeled after business, but the truth is that public education in this country is one of our biggest businesses. They money in public education is mega billions of $$. Where there is this much money, corruption and politics will reign. It's true that teachers are not unionized in this state, but in other states, they are a political force which does not necessarily have the best interests of students at the forefront. It's about political power.

All one has to do here in Guilford is to attend one school board meeting and hear what they talk about. See how many times the subject of education of students actually arises. You'll find that social issues and money are by far the most discussed topics. Education is just a peripheral matter. In this county, polishing the "image" of the schools is all that is important as it is important to the economic development interests. You'll note that they talk about promoting the "image" of the school system, not the reality of the product. That never improves no matter how much money is wasted.

By the way, can another school bond referendum be too far away in our future here? More money for Terry Grier and the school board to waste. If you don't believe that to be true, tell me why it costs $42+ million to build Northern High to serve 1,200 students and Forsyth County just built two new high schools, Reagan and Atkins to serve the same 1,200 students each,, at nearly the same amount, about $47 million? Is that merely incompetence?

This is a national problem, not just an NC problem. look:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2006-02-27-afl-cio-nea_x.htm

World traveler, go play outside.

neocon, are you going to answer my question? What's your alternative?
And while the AFL-CIO and the NEA joining forces may have some impact somewhere (and make for good talk radio fodder), what's it got to do with the education of my children? Nothing that I can see.

I dont think anyone will disagree with the fact that what is happening now can not be allowed to continue. We have more children in school then tax dollars can afford, and I'm sorry to go here, but children, of well.....lets just call them, Non Income/Property tax paying persons, taking advantage of an already overwhelmed system is not helping

Teachers should not be blamed for the problems, we took away all resources for teachers when we slowley chipped away at their authority when we overwhelmed them with students who refuse to be taught (we use to send them to a special school for unruly children) children who are unable to learn in a regular teaching environment (handicapped children who once spent their days at a special needs center where they get the attention they deserved) and took away a teachers abilty to correct bad behaviour in children by putting them in classrooms with 30 other children who should not have to suffer with a learning environment where a teacher is constantly having to maintain problem children.

It is 2006 and we have an elementary school that has 2nd and 3rd graders being taught together in a school that only has 400 kids. What the hell?

On a side note, I do not mean to be harsh to any handicap child. I have an uncle who is mentally retarded and have advocated for him more then once. I had a boy in my 7th 8th and 9th grade classes who sat in the back of the classroom all day, with a paid by the state aid who never left is side. He sat in the back of class for 3 years (that I know of) making envelopes out of paper he folded up. What was the need in that? Before my 7th grade year our chorus class had gone to gateway to perform for the kids there. They loved it, I will never forget the kids there, usually 3 to a teacher doing crafts and things that made them feel attended too and happy. So what I ask was the point, it taking Andrew and sticking him in public education? I asked his mom once, how he felt about it. (Andrew couldnt speak) and she told me that she thought he was unhappy. After he turned 16, we never say him again.

Am I the "World Traveler" or is it DD? I thought you were done with me Neo? Are you taking me back? If so, pick me up at 8:00. I look forward to catching up, you stud muffin! We can play outside all you want.

So the NEA and AFL-CIO are considering merging ay? It would not matter in North Carolina. It is illegal for teachers to strike here, as far as I know. Don't worry, the "right to work" will still protect you against us Liberals.

Computer - 900 dollars
Internet Service - 40 dollars
Making Neo look stupid, over and over - Priceless

Also, I won't mention any names, because if this next part is directed at you, you will know. DO the other people who comment here, have to be subjected to a the daily personal attacks that seem to be getting worse and worse? They are no longer amusing and need no excuses. I realize that occasionally we stray off topic here, but when almost every letter turns in to a name calling battle of the wits it becomes pointless and tiring. I appreciate all the comments made, I appreciate even the comments made in these particular diatrabs, but I am personally getting a little tired of the verbal smack down that has to take place every single day. Please consider that we love reading your comments, but the personal attacks have got to stop. Thank you

lbb,

You are right. I too enjoy the civil debates much more. However, I don't apologize for being stern and direct. Liberals have taken the high ground for too long. Sometimes we have to get a little cruel to show that we are not weak, as the media constantly suggest we are.

Both sides engage in immature name calling. However, I think the right wing (via Fox News and their echo chamber) have set this tone. But, I respect what you said and thanks for saying it.

Thank you for your civil response Stevie, I acually expected a lot worse, but the day is still young.

HowieG, the alternative is to stop putting kids in a public institution that is failing miserably.
Close these government indoctrination centers and return the stolen money to the taxpayers so they can afford the education that their kids deserve. No, vouchers is not the only answer, but look at the outcry from the liberals when it is floated as an idea to give parents SOME - just SOME mind you - control over their kids education. You would think the end of civilization as we know it is upon us to hear their outcry.

THAT is my alternative and I didn't hear it from Fox News or Rush Limbaugh. I have been saying this for 30 years. I know you will look at this and shake your head and dismiss this notion. I think liberals are afraid of what kids would learn in a private institution where academic excellence is demanded and would have no further use for them politically.

LBB,
Thanks for singling out neoCON and his moronic statements. Civil discourse is much better when actual ideas are proffered and not the same old tired blame the liberals mantra. Glad you approved of my condemnation of neo and I hope you will join in condemning those who do nothing but call names while offering no solutions and nothing other than blaming "lie-bruhls".

Contrary to neocon's myopic view of the world, the liberals want children to learn as much as they can learn---the conservatives want to limit what the children learn by putting a "gag" on sex education, and science (evolution). There are no major institutions of learning with curricula called "conservative arts"!
**********
What public schools need more than anything, is support for teachers and children....something neoCON is obviously not prepared to give. If all the parents, and backseat drivers (neoCON) would join in supporting teachers, there would be an immediate change for the better.
Volunteer, volunteer, volunteer.

Seems to me that neoCON's lack of education makes him a very bad example of a "critic". Maybe he wasn't successful and therefore wants to use his own lack of success to punish those who are a part of the system today. Other than being a taxpayer, he shows little interest in public education. Howie G, we should ignore his ridiculous rants and move on with the debate.

The funny thing is I am more conservative on the issue of schools than any other subject, hands down. I believe kids should wear uniforms, etc.

DD is absolutely right about the "blame liberal’s mantra". The name calling that is laced in seemingly EVERY conservative response makes me want to strike back, even if what they say is moronic. I know I shouldn't, but I am only human.

For example, you claim liberals hate things like school vouchers. This exclusively liberal voucher hater is a straw man.

Liberals, who hate public schools, home school their kids. Conservatives, who hate public schools, send their kids to Christian schools.

This is, of course, a generalization. But the greater, more problematic generalization is the notion that there are conservative or liberal people, rather than ideas.

LBB says: "Please consider that we love reading your comments but the personal attacks have got to stop"

Deacon says:

"Thanks for singling out Neocon and his moronic statements"

"Contrary to neocon's myopic view of the world..."

"backseat drivers (neocon)"

"neocon's lack of education"

"his own lack of success"

"his ridiculous rants"

"he's a mile wide and an inch deep"

"he has NO substance, NO depth"

"you don't really care about education"

LBB says: "Also, I won't mention any names, because if this next part is directed at you, you will know"

Or perhaps not?

neocon,

As I've come to expect, your solution is no solution at all. Removal of the children from, and closure of, public schools doesn't accomplish anything. Have you thought through the suggestion you've been developing for 30 years? If so, how would you address the fact that your solution would create an even larger class disparity than we already see? Surely in the past 30 years you've moved past step 1 of your thesis.

And the outcry about vouchers has nothing to do with choice. If you choose to send your child to a private school, more power to you. But that doesn't remove you from your obligation to contribute to the common good. The education system is not for the good of your child. It's for the good of all children.

I think the system's be hijacked by "both sides".

The Far Left: I hate to agree with Neo, but assuming that by definition "Union" means "Far Left" - you the teachers' union leaders do seem about keeping themselves in power - if needed to the detriment of others, but that's like much of America, so they have no exclusive club here.

The Far Right: Equally by definition, "Administration" is about keeping the power - if needed to the detriment of others, also like much of America, not an exclusive club.

No Child Left Behind. As far as I can tell, this is a Far Right ploy to demonstrate that Public Education, in all but a few isolated cases, cannot succeed. The Planned distruction of Public Education.

To be replaced by Vouchers - where the Nanny COnservative State kicks in to fund Private Education. Hypocracy.

Howie,

The public education system in this country has nothing to do with anyone's children. It has become Education, Inc. It's big business at its worst. Take a look at our school system, and tell me that they really care about education. They can't, as they never talk about it. It's always about the money. The only people that I will give a pass to is the teachers. Most of them actually care about the children and education.

Now I do not know what the LTE writter is rally talking about with a commitment to "socialism as the organizing principle for educating our young: central planning and a government monopoly." AFAIK, Schools were "locally controlled" until more fairly recently. See NCLB above, although that was certainly not the first big G intervention.

And he's full of crap about "this singular nation rewards individual initiative", at least it's not universal, and has become less and less so in the past 130 years.

While I agree with "Let principals, groups of teachers and individual teachers strive to please their customers: families with children", an I agree that we're in a "top-down, no-customer-feedback, no-incentive, one-size-fits-all" system - which suckes, but he looses my support with "Let them compete". What is this, a FootBall Game?

I think Steve D's correct - Politicians, including school board members and other self serving pundents - don't get votes if they tell the voters their "children are lazy, disruptive and pathetically behind other countries in terms of aptitude."

I disagree with suspension as a punishment -0 I say give them an old fashion hand-push mower and send them out to mow the football field. you wanna get an education or walk behind a moweer int he hot sun all day. Kids choice.

Nit Picker - Public Education cost about $7,500 per student year. No Think how much you pay in Real Estate Taxes, and stop wondering why there are budget shortfalls.

ORR's right - go to a board meeting and to see how mucked up it really is.

"The only people that I will give a pass to is the teachers. Most of them actually care about the children and education."

Thanks ORR. I get angry about teachers getting all the blame, but it has gotten a lot better over the last 10 years or so. I hear a lot more support for teachers than I used to.

Unfortunately that part is getting better only because the overall failure of our school system is becoming so apparent. I guess we have to hit rock bottom before changes will occur.

HowieG, exactly what is the outcry about vouchers? What is wrong with someone deciding where their children should go to a learning center of their choice? What is so terrible about that?

The current situation is a shambles where discipline is a thing of the past and the bureaucracy is top heavy with people like Grier who are only interested in how much money they can squeeze out of the taxpayers.

I never said I have "been developing a plan". I said I have been advocating the closure of the public zoo system for 30 years. Not to worry,though. It won't happen anytime soon. There are too many people who cannot picture their life without the government babysitting them and telling them such things like when to get out of bed and go climb on the big government bus for a trip to the government run zoo system of the government's choice.

"But that doesn't remove you from your obligation to 'contribute' to the common good"...
'from each according to their ability'....

Neo - the problem is not sending children to a learning center of parent's choice, it's getting everyone else to help pay for it. What is so confusing about that?

Now you'll say "but I'm already paying for the failed public system". True. You're also paying for failing public sewers, corrupt police, and public funded research into womens deseases you will never experience. You recently subsidized the poor oil companies, and poor credit card companies that continue make bad loans. The list goes on forever.

Poor credit card companies that make bad loans?

They rely on and require a certain number of people to default or declare bankruptcy each year in order to survive. When someone defaults or files bankruptcy, they are able to claim an accelerated loss, for the full amount of the debt, that year, rather than accepting payments spread out over a lifetime.

But I digress.

I am a product of the public education system. Went to a high school in Winston that has one of the worst reputations. I enjoyed my experiences and felt well-prepared for higher education.

The problems I see with public education today are controlling the hellions and keeping out of the "lets just throw money at it" mindset.

With that being said, I will now admit to not having attended public school in many years and my children being to young to go to school, so perhaps I am simply ignorant to the problems.

neocon,

The problem with vouchers is that they do nothing to improve the education system. For every dollar that goes to vouchers, that's another dollar that is not going to the management of public schools and has to be replaced. Just guessing here, but I assume you wouldn't advocate raising taxes to support the voucher program. So the voucher program would draw money away from public schools, causing further deterioration.

As I said previously, I have no problem with choice. If you want to send your child to a private school, good for you. But we all have an obligation to our society as a whole, not just to ourselves.

"Nit Picker - Public Education cost about $7,500 per student year. Now Think how much you pay in Real Estate Taxes, and stop wondering why there are budget shortfalls."

Yep, $7,500. That sounds about like the amount I pay in real estate taxes each year. ;)

Howie,

I agree that vouchers may draw money away from public schools. However, I'm guessing that might be Neocon's point. Put the money where it will be most wisely used.

As far as causing further deterioration of public schools, that may be true. But, overall, education may actually improve.

I think we've got some pretty good public school buildings and teachers. I think the main thing we need is new management.

NitP,

"overall education may actually improve" -- Explain that premise, if you would. While we all seem to agree that money isn't the solution, certainly taking money away would cause greater decline, wouldn't it? I don't see how taking money out of a bad system and giving it to individuals will help improve the bad system.

Howie,

Basically, what I mean by that is that we'd be taking money out of a bad system (public education) and putting it into what could prove a better system (private education).

Just a change in management is all.

Of course, I'm no fortune-teller and don't make it my livelihood to fix the education system. It's just a stab in the dark to understand the reasoning behind vouchers.

I can see both sides of this issue and really am not attempting to say what the best course of action might be.

NitP,

I'm no fortune teller either, but I like to think of myself a s a cause and effect, logical thinker (some of you may be laughing at that notion, but give me the benefit of the doubt for a minute). I try to project what might happen if we took students and money out of the public schools, and started sending both to private schools. Will private schools have the capacity to absorb the students? If not, we'll need more schools. Therefore, a growth industry would become private schools. And for the sake of argument, let's say that the $7500 follows the student. So if I open a school and enroll 1000 students in my new school, that means I get $7,500,000 from the gov't, plus whatever else I decide to charge the students for the "better" private education. Now what kind of education do you think we might see from some schools who opened just to absorb some of the overflow? ORR and others think that the public system is all about money. This scenario seems a lot worse to me.

Furthermore, if we take the $7500 away from the current system, operating costs per student will more likely rise, and since the biggest expense is salary, the poorer schools will pay less than the private schools, further deteriorating the system creating a cultural divide (or canyon) much more severe than the one we currently have.

You know what? The US has the best education system in the world: only it starts after 12th grade. US universities are the best in the world, which is why the best students from around the world come here. Why?

There are no serious behavior problems. Misbehaving students are simply kicked out of the classroom. Individual achievement is awarded on the part of students and faculty. Low performers either fail out or don't get tenure. Students can decide where they go, or decide to go nowhere. Teachers, not administrators or school boards, control what's taught and how.

Put these basic principles to work at, say, 1/3 of a given system's schools, and people would be breaking down the doors trying to get in.

Other problems would remain unsolved.

Politically, it's impossible

"Poor credit card companies that make bad loans?"

Yep. That was the basis for the new bankruptcy law that passed just before Katrina wiped out the lifetime everything of a few million folks, including the jobs that supported those folk.

Now it may or may not habe become an issue - perhaps too few were actually devastated but the quint-whammy of a Cat 5 hurricane, insurance companies, leveling of your place of employment and the steadyt pay that went with it, as criminally inept FEMA, and the new powers given the credit card companies ... I do recall some "grumblings" along the lines of, "In light of Katrian should we put a hold on the new bankruptcy law ... " but there was no response.

"The US has the best education system in the world: only it starts after 12th grade. US universities are the best in the world, which is why the best students from around the world come here."

Brian - that is no longer a universally true statement. I recent read a report that said while many US Universities are still World class, there are now many Overseas Universities that have become World class.

... I agree with your follow-up - Put basic principles to work, 1/3 leave a given system's schools, and people would be breaking down the doors trying to get in ... bur what do you do with that 1/3rd, now a permanent underclass.

Letter writer makes it sound as if socialism was a bad thing. Funny thing, that. Oh well...

Ha, my point, JDR, is that those are not bad loans to the credit companies. They are good loans, even when the debtor defaults. They want some default.

They also want more blood when the default occurs, though. The whole concept of having one's pie and eating it as well.

Apologies for straying from the topic at hand, though.

Nemo,

Socialism is an unconscionable thing. By what stretch of the imagination is slavery not a bad thing?

Swanks: Are you in the Credit Card business?

I'm not and this does not make sense to me. Why would they not want GOOD loans paid back with interest, vs. some BAD loans that are not paid back but offered some tax relief? My experience is tax relief is nice but never as good as cash on the barrel with interest on top.

BTW - why do "we" give the credit card companies tax relief? Make a bad loan and eat it baby; be smarter in the future. Do you think money from credit card companies paid to political campaigns has influenced on the way laws are written?

Don't worry. Dan will pipe in and tell you I think Corporations are eeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiillllllll.

JDR,

Let's say a credit card company extends $10,000 worth of credit to 10 people. Nine people will pay them back. But this payment will be spaced out over several years. So they are not recieving the income all at once, but gradually.

However, the one person that defaults, they are able to claim a full $10,000 deducation THAT year. They do not have to gradually claim the loss as payments would have come in. Furthermore, the cost of credit (interest rate they charge) is based upon the risk, so this loss is absorbed by other debtors via a 22.5% rate on their Discover Card, and the bank gets an accelerated deduction.

Sure, in each case they would rather you pay them back, but the volume of cards they issue ensure they not everyone will and they know that. Rather than be more careful with their loans, they continue to issue them, expecting a certain rate of default. When this rate occurs, they are able to make the most out of it.

That is roughly equivalent to what the S&L's did back in the 80's. They sold each other bad debt in order to take advantage of losses so they could accelerate the deduction on them.

Why do we give them debt relief? Because the government knows that many Americans live beyond their means and will get themselves into trouble, I think. My opinion is that credit is way too easy to come by. A bank should have to evaluate the risk of each applicant, rather than grant credit to almost everyone, knowing that there are mechanisms in place that will assist them in case of a default.

Like I said before, they charge such a high interest rate, ostensibly because of the risk inherant with an unsecured loan (which is all credit cards are). However, this "risk" is one they themselves help create by issuing cards willy-nilly, by playing the Tax Code like a well-oiled machine, and getting government assistance.

""Nit Picker - Public Education cost about $7,500 per student year. Now Think how much you pay in Real Estate Taxes, and stop wondering why there are budget shortfalls."

Yep, $7,500. That sounds about like the amount I pay in real estate taxes each year. ;)"

nitpicker, property taxes are just part of the taxes that everyone pays toward that $7,500 per student for public education. The majority of that $7,500 comes from the state, who takes in much more of your money in various taxes. One of the main reasons you see your property taxes go up each year is because of the insatiable appetities of the public schools. You can count upon Guilford floating a new school bond referendum within the next year, and everyone should know that isn't free money. It will only come from another increase in your property taxes.

As far as less money going to public education, that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if you had good management. Terry Grier and the school board excel in the waste of money. Their incompetent handling of school construction is a good example. Also, Grier' new pet projects are a waste of money. Do you think that establishing a new academy in High Point for 10 students that expressed an interest in medical careers in a good investment? How much per student will that cosat the taxpayers? No, in this case, less money might be better as they would have to use it wisely, rather than acting like drunken sailors on leave.

ORR,

You cite some good points; it sounds like this body is very ineffective. I don't know much about the school system, but I read over the weekend that the renovations on the old Oakwood Homes HQ that was bought to supplement Smith High School are already costng twice the estimate. So I ask of the school board: where is the accountability? In my job, if I entered into a contract for $5 million, and halfway through I found ut it would be $10 million, I think I'd be held accountable for why I hadn't planned for whatever unexpected event caused the difference. So why aren't our Board members more disturbed by this kind of thing, because from what I've gathered, it's not the first such instance. My little kiddies are still a couple of years from the public school system. Sounds like I'm in for a fun ride in 2008.

Howie,

In your previous post (the one before your last), you hinted at doomsday scenario regarding taking money away from public schools and letting private schools operate with their funds.

I think, in the case of Phoenix Academy in High Point (and other charter schools), that may be exactly what we are doing. Not exactly the same as vouchers perhaps, but overall, not that far off either.

NitP,

As I've said, I have a lot to learn about our school system. I'll try to take a look at Phoenix and see what they have to offer. I don't really have a problem with charter schools (though I'm not well-versed on them either).

My concern in my earlier post had to do with giving tax money to private institutions and the effect that might follow for both private and public institutions.

"Socialism is an unconscionable thing. By what stretch of the imagination is slavery not a bad thing?"

Dude, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I understand that in your view virtually everything that you don't agree with is tantamount to "slavery." Maybe one day you'll be able to find a bit of comfort dealing in a world that isn't strictly black and white.

Nemo,

I didn't say that it's slavery because I don't agree with it. If you want to live under socialism, that's fine. But if you force me to live under it, then it's slavery.

All I'm against is the initiation of force. I'd be all for people living under socialism voluntarily if that's what they wish to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have a cold war to pervent the spread of Communism, which is socialism. This country was founded on individualism. That is what the Bill of Rights is all about. Under socialism, you have none. There is no individualism, it's not allowed

That is also how public schools are ran. No accountability to the tax payers or to the parents of the kids they are suppose to educate.

...and judging from Bobby's grasp of the English language, I'll have to admit that he has never received the education that he is owed.

Since I volunteer teaching adults to read, I think I should be the one to give Bobby remedial work. We'll just say it's "taking one for the team"!