News-Record.com

I wonder if these bleeding heart peaceniks would feel the same if one of their children were kidnapped by the Islamic fanatics and we had captured one of them who had info pertaining to their whereabouts?

Marilyn,

Ask Daniel Pearl about human dignity. Oh that's right you can't because he had his head cut off by scum bag islamofacists with bags over their heads. I guess since I'm not the member of some academic group on human rights and don't drink my coffee with my pinky in the air I just don't get it. The idea that somehow we still win if we keep the higher "moral" ground and play by rules our enemies do not while innocent people are beheaded by Muslims escapes me.

I don't know you Ms. White, but I do not need to to know that Thomas Sowell crush you in a debate about this issue.

And don't give me a speech about intolerance and yada yada. That same Jesus that said turn the other cheek and love your neighbor also ran the money changers out of the temple with a whip.

I do not hate Muslims, but the facts are these. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. It's time for the world to stop pretending this isn't the case and stamp out these religious nut bags.

There has never been a documented or prosecuted case of "torture" as a matter of policy or orders from the US government in our current war, only criminal acts by individual soldiers or interrogators operating outside their orders, the law, and our government's policies.
The US government does not engage in torture as it's defined by any lawful body.
Just because some things may possibly seem "torturous" to some people doesn't make them "torture" as defined by law.

"I don't know you Ms. White, but I do not need to to know that Thomas Sowell crush you in a debate about this issue.

I do not hate Muslims, but the facts are these. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."

JC Burcham,

Your post indicates your acceptance of violence in general and a lack of respect for the views of others. Why would anyone think appropriate the word "crush" when speaking of fellow human beings?

And, no, not all terrorists are Muslim. Perhaps all YOUR terrorist are, but not so in the real world. Your statement shows a disregard for truth and is a rather uninformed position.

Yvonne,

As far as my "general acceptance of violence" you could not be more wrong. Fighting violent people requires violence and all I am saying is it is time to stop pretending it does not. This does not mean that I am violent in general and in normal practice. Your oversimplification is juvenile.

Just because I disagree strongly with Ms. White does not mean I do not respect her right to have an opinion. I just think she is wrong.

Now to the use of the word "crush". It is a figure of speech which in my previous usage meant "defeat soundly." I use the word, but it is fine if you don't. Just don't make me out to be an animal because I use the word.

Finally, please "inform" me as to the groups that are not Muslim and are terrorists. Of all the major conflicts on the globe currently they involve islamic agression. Whether it be in the Middle East, Africa, former Soviet Union, etc. The terrorists are Muslims. If there are non-muslim terrorists please educate me Yvonne.

Terrorists (Groups who use violence to terrorize)

Militia Movement--read Oklahoma City

Right to Life radicals----read "Clinic Bombings"

Irish Republican Army---read London bombings

Urban Gangs---terrorizing businesses and people

and on, and on, and on.

I agree with you DD, JC is wrong. Only 99.90% of terrorists are Muslims. Good job pointing out that glaring mistake.

My dearest Marilyn, first let me welcome you to the "peacenik" crowd! Glad to have someone whom I personally know in the group now!

Now, excellent letter. I see that NONE have sought to refute the "America/Christian" aspect of your letter. Nor has any sought to refute the "golden rule" point either. I thoroughly love these points of differing view.

DD, thanks for pointing out a few other "terror" aspects.

As noted above, I personally know Marilyn White. I believe that I have a more complete comprehension of why she writes/states what she does. It comes from a heart of love and compassion for ALL humanity, regardless of "religious" affiliation; whether it be Christian, Muslim, etc.!

Shalom

Muslims are the 'in' crowd for the left to suck up to at this time because they hate Bush with almost the same passion that liberals do.

"Pray for your enemies, turn the other cheek, blessed are the peacemakers."

Darryl, I'm sure Marilyn is a fine person as you describe, but she is as clueless as you as to the threat militant Islam poses the world.

Is this the pacifist solution to terrorism? Just pray for terrorists that they might start liking us, turn the other cheek no matter what they do, and just hope for peace?

If pacifists ran this country we would be overtaken by militant Islam and my wife and daughter would be wearing burkas.

Dan,

"Is this the pacifist solution to terrorism?"

What is the stupid rednecks living vicariously through brutish soldiers solution? Kill them all and let God sort them out? Good luck! There are over a billion Muslims.

(BTW, I was not calling you stupid. However, when you get together with some in this blog, your I.Q. seems to drop at least 100 points.)

Stevie, I buuuulieve saying my IQ drops 100 points is calling me stupid, then again I'm too stupid to know or not. Don't really care, but either say it or don't without beating around the bush. Keep that up and I'll have to start calling you Stevie DD.

Did I say we need to wipe out all billion Muslims? Can you find my post that said that?

Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism Stevie? Just like Darryl's and Marilyn's? If not, what is it?

My point is that pacifists, while noble in their beliefs, are totally clueless as to the realities of the threats in the world and think praying for their enemies will make them change.

Tom Fox was an idealistic pacifist that met his unfortunate demise due to his beliefs that he could pray for our enemies and they would embrace peace. Instead they shot him dead and dumped his body off in a Baghdad neighborhood.

http://www.selvesandothers.org/view2840.html

Stevie D,
Don't waste your typing on some who post here. They drank the "Kool Ade" and cannot discern anything contrary to the corner they've cemented themselves into.

Three letters talking about Americans and the "torture" of prisoners in three days. Anyone else thing the N7R has an agenda?

I suppose I'll have to use the "preview" button. Read "think" and N&R" in my previous post.

Dan, just wondering: Would the person who is attributed with saying, "pray for your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc." be the following comment as well? "....totally clueless as to the realities of the threats in the world and think praying for their enemies will make them change." Just wondering.

Shalom

Darryl, you and Marilyn aren't Jesus. I don't think Jesus, while on earth, would have allowed mass slaughter of innocents, treating women like dogs, beheadings, bombings, etc. etc. in occur in the name of Allah.

Here is some light hearted humor for liberals:

Subject: Illegal Immigration Flood
From: Manitoba Herald, Manitoba, CANADA

The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The actions of President Bush are prompting an exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray, and agree with Bill O'Reilly.

Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal-rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.

"I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. The producer was cold, exhausted and
hungry. "He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?"

In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences,but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields. "Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk."

Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves. "A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a drop of drinking water.

"They did have a nice little Napa Valley Cabernet, though."

When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR races.

In recent days, liberals have turned to sometimes-ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers on Perry Como and Rosemary Clooney hits to prove they were alive in the '50s. "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we get suspicious about their age," an official said.

Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organic broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies. "I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art history majors does one country need?"

In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said. We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. We'll give tax breaks for the construction of more Starbucks and Birkenstock stores. And we might even put some endangered species on
postage stamps.

"The President is determined to reach out," he said.

I'm still waiting for somebody to prove that extracting intel through torture is reliable. Nobody's been able to do that yet.

In the meantime, a little light reading that I posted an exerpt of the other day:

Tuesday 26 September 2006

United States Senate
Committee on the Judiciary
224 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510

The Honorable Arlen Specter, Chairman
The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Democratic Member

Dear Senators:

We write as experienced intelligence and military officers who have served in the frontlines in waging war against communism and Islamic extremism. We fully support the need for proactive operations to identify and disrupt those individuals and organizations who wish to harm our country or its people. We also recognize that intelligence operations, unlike law enforcement initiatives, enjoy more flexibility and less scrutiny, but at the same time must continue to be guided by applicable US law.

We are very concerned that the proposals now before the Congress, concerning how to handle detainees suspected of terrorist activities, run the risk of squandering the greatest resource our country enjoys in fighting the dictators and extremists who want to destroy us—our commitment as a nation to the rule of law and the protection of divinely granted human rights.

Apart from the moral considerations, we believe it is important that the Congress send a clear message that torture is not an effective or useful tactic. As noted recently by the head of Army Intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons:

No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.

Our nation was created in response to the abuses visited on our ancestors by the King of England, who claimed the right to enter their homes, to levy taxes at whim, and to jail those perceived as a threat without allowing them to be confronted by their accusers. Now, 230 years later, we find our own President claiming the right to put people in detention centers without legal recourse and to employ interrogation methods that, by any reasonable legal standard, are categorized as torture.

We ask that the Senate lead the way in upholding the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence and affirmed in the Geneva Conventions regarding the rights of individuals and the obligations of governing authorities towards those in their power. We believe it is important to combat the hatred and vitriol espoused by Islamic extremists, but not at the expense of being viewed as a nation who justifies or excuses torture and incarceration without recourse to a judicial procedure.

The US has been in the forefront of the human rights campaign throughout the 20th century, led by Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. The end of World War II and the horrors of the Holocaust inspired the United States to take the lead in making the case that human rights were universal, not parochial. Until recently the policy of our country was that all people, not just citizens of the United States, were entitled to these protections. It is important that the world understand that we remain committed to these principles. In fighting our enemies we must wage this battle in harmony with the traditional values of our society that were enshrined in the opening clause of the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident...."

Respectfully yours,

CIA Officers:
Milton Bearden, Directorate of Operations
Ray Close, Directorate of Operations
Vincent Cannistraro, Directorate of Operations
Philip Giraldi, Directorate of Operations
James Marcinkowski, Directorate of Operations
Melissa Mahle, Directorate of Operations
Paul Pillar, Directorate of Intelligence
David MacMichael, Directorate of Intelligence
Melvin Goodman, Directorate of Intelligence
Ray McGovern, Directorate of Intelligence
Mary O. McCarthy, DCI professional staff

US Military and Department of Defense:
W. Patrick Lang, (Colonel, US Army retired, Director Defense Humint Services, retired)
A. D. Ackels, (Colonel, US Army, retired)
Karen Kwiatkowski, (Lt. Colonel, USAF, retired)

US Department of State:
Thomas R. Maertens, Deputy Coordinator, Office of Counter Terrorism, US Department of State
Larry C Johnson, Office of Counter Terrorism, US Department of State

Federal Bureau of Investigation:
Christopher Whitcomb, Hostage Rescue Team

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But then again, I guess some of you folks know better than these godless hippies, right?

Denzien,

If Bush had listened to the experts and to those who had a multitude of experience in the ME, we wouldn't be in Iraq. Thus this discussion would not have been an issue. But like a number of folks posting here, Bush thought he knew more than those who have been there, done that; more than those who have devoted their lives and careers to "knowing" what will work and what won't.

Dan,

I don't think you are stupid but I do think you say foolish things sometimes. Your intelligence seems to go "on hold" when discussing Bush and, in this case, terrorism. You remind me of a dear friend who thinks we should "bomb the hell out of them (Iraqis) and kill them all". Her neck is more than a little red, me thinks.

You seem to be part of that all or nothing, black or white crowd. Everyone is either pacifists or for using whatever means necessary (torture) in dealing with the enemy. What most of us middle of the issue folks know is, not all detainees are radical muslims who want to kill us (enemies). And what we think is that torture is not a proven method for extracting information (see Denzien's post). There are some of us who think just because the bad guys employe such tactics is no reason for us (Christians) to follow their lead. This reminds me of elementary kids, when caught doing somthing they know is wrong, saying "All the other kids do it."

JC Burcham,

I was not trying to make you sound animalistic by mentioning your use of the word crush. What I was pointing out is people often subconsciously think in "terms" of violence. IMHO, most who do not approve of or condone violence do not think of "crushing" someone who disagrees with us.

DD pointed out some of the groups who use terrorists tactics as their strategy for control. There are groups right here in the US who use terror as their modus operandus. They just aren't called terrorist.

Darryl,

Good points. Keep repeating the words and teachings of Christ even if they seem to be wasted on some. It's really strange how folks think the Bible is on their side when referring to homosexuality but want to disregard it when discussing Christ's messages of peace.

nic danger third eye

Yoo hoo! Nic Danger!! Still looking for backup for your contentions..

Dan, jcakbar, neocon- I'd love to see some cites from you guys on this topic since Nic apparently can't do so by himself.

Yvonne, I will repeat, just in case you didn't catch it before. I still don't know where you and Stevie get the notion that I say we should "bomb the hell out of them" yada, yada, yada.

HERE IT IS:

Did I say we need to wipe out all billion Muslims? Can you find my post that said that?

Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism Stevie? Just like Darryl's and Marilyn's? If not, what is it?

Yvonne, I have respected you very much over the last year or two, but please do not put words in my mouth that I didn't say. People have done that to you multiple times before, so you ought to know how it feels.

My simple question, ........AGAIN.....FOR THE LAST TIME....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here it is again, someone please answer it without saying I want to kill every Muslim in existence......

ONE MORE TIME......

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism Stevie? Just like Darryl's and Marilyn's? If not, what is it?

In case you didn't understand it.............

Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism Stevie? Just like Darryl's and Marilyn's? If not, what is it?

Whew.

BTW, Stevie, Yvonne, Denzien, or anyone else can answer my question.

Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism Stevie? Just like Darryl's and Marilyn's? If not, what is it?

"Is praying for your enemies, turning the other cheek, and hoping for peace your solution to terrorism"

I was kinda hoping you could answer my question first. :)

In regard to your question, I would imagine that good detective work based on expanded humanint and lingual services, combined with a agressive sharing of intel from country to country and agency to agency with a mindful eye towards the civil liberties that are the backbone of the American ideal would be a good start.

I'd focus on energy independence (expanding nuclear power in particular) and border security next, along with working with the former Soviet states in securing their loose nukes/nuclear material, offering huge rewards or incentives to do so.

I think I'd look into the causes of regional tension that prompt people to do the unthinkable acts of violence against one another and reassess American policy to those ends- America, as the world's remaining superpower, needs to exert its influence as a peacemaker, a mediator, rather than giving the appearance of an imperialistic, hegemonic society bent on inflicting its worldview on the rest of the world (believe it or not, other societies question our motives when we delve into their internal affairs- who knew?).

Oh, and I'd totally make it a felony to go the speed limit in the left hand lane.

But that's just me- What would you do, Dan?

Yoo hoo! Dan! What would you do?

Dan would blame the old Demon Deacon and then pout about how people get off topic. Claims he loves the baby Jesus then goes off on a rant about why "turning the other cheek" is a defective strategy. Hollywood couldn't make this kind of stuff up!

It was posted by Dan, "Darryl, you and Marilyn aren't Jesus. I don't think Jesus, while on earth, would have allowed mass slaughter of innocents, treating women like dogs, beheadings, bombings, etc. etc. in occur in the name of Allah."

I never said Marilyn or myself were Jesus. Where that comment originates I do not know. I was only repeating quotes that others have made (with which I agree) that have been attributed to Jesus. If that makes either Marilyn or myself Jesus, then so be it!

However, I am still waiting for my original question to be answered; "Would the person who is attributed with saying, "pray for your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc." be the following comment as well? "....totally clueless as to the realities of the threats in the world and think praying for their enemies will make them change."

Also Dan, from my research and studies, I do believe that in the time period in which Jesus walked on the earth that, "would have allowed mass slaughter of innocents, treating women like dogs, beheadings, bombings, etc. etc. in occur in the name of Allah."

Well let us see, in the mass slaughter of innocents, I believe that the Roman Emperor's were doing just that. Next, treating women like dogs. Hmm, women were property, many times treated worse than one would treat a dog or any other animal. Now beheadings, hmmm, me thinks this was yet another way of getting rid of innocents. Bombings, since that technology had yet to be invented, that is a mute point.

Now, as for any of this "occur in the name of Allah." Since Muhammad had yet to be born, the Islamic faith was yet to be a power in the world. As for Allah; Allah is the Islamic equivilent to the Christian God, not Jesus, rather God. The central focus within Christianity.

Now Dan, want to go back and make an attempt at answering the original question that was restated above?

Shalom

Yoo hoo! Dan! Whatcha got?

Yoo hoo! Nic!

Come on, guys, certainly between the both of you you can provide evidence that torture is a great way to get good intel, and tell me exactly how to win the war on terrah!

Dan, I see you posting in other threads.. Come to Denzien. Tell him your plan...

Or is it that you're all talk, and recycled soundbite talk at that? Keep me posted.

See?

You. Got. Nothing.