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The conversation continues.

"Students cannot learn in crowded classrooms" ... maybe. Certainly we all want one on one, but it get's easier as kids get older IF they want to be there. Think of the large college classes you may have attended. Think of how many are in your church which has the same shut-up, sit still, listen, learn type of atmosphere.

Without instructional materials. True. The Admin's are fools to throw out books every couple years, just because they are a couple years old. I still have my HS Physic's book, and for the most part, it's still accurate and relevant (quarks and strings not considered)

Stressed-out teachers. That's true - but a lot of teachers are underqualified - OK they have the paper but they may not know the subject (some really don't - but they have a Teaching Sertivicate!), and it takes a special 23 year old female to keep horn toad senior boys concentrating on quarks and strings.

County officials need to spend a day or week or month in our shoes. A freaking men. Parents too.

"School always begins with poor planning"...

and ends with poor planning...

That's right neocon. Shut 'em down. Let the kids fend for themselves.

"A manager would not hire more people than he or she has desks or work stations to accommodate, so why should students be forced to attend classes in an auditorium, hallway or cafeteria?"

If you're going to compare it private business, then you should already know the answer to your question. Let me answer it with a rhetorical question. Why should bureaucrats care how poorly they do their jobs when their jobs are pretty much safe since GovCo has a monopoly of force on education?

HowieG,
Without getting into another pissin' contest with you, just one question: Do you have any faith in your fellow citizens to care for themselves and their children or do you think it takes an arm of the state to make sure parents 'do the right thing'?

I not only have confidence in my own ability to provide for my family, I also have confidence in my fellow Americans to do the same - given the chance to do so without the government dictating when, where, and what they will do and learn.

I think this is the major difference between liberals who support a government run education system and those who do not. IMO, of course. Your mileage may differ. (smile)

... because these bureaucrats are SUPPOSED to be Locally elected Board Members. We have let the Fed's step in and dictate what we do, and we have let the forces of education - in the vogue of contemporaty divisive politices - be influenced by non-related issues.

GWB want's No Child Left Behind & to go against that is unpatriotic ... etc.

neocon,

I believe that I will do what is best for the education of my children. I believe nearly all parents will do the same. However, I believe that the mandate of staying in school until 16 was put in place for a reason. I don't think it was done arbitrarily.

First, it prevents parents from keeping their kids out of school for short-sighted goals (crops, taking care of siblings, working in the family dry-cleaning store, etc.). Second, it sends the message to the kids that they don't just get to bail out if the going gets tough. Third, it sets the proper tone for our society that education is the access to opportunity, for people of all classes and cultures. We all want to succeed as a capitalist nation (bet you thought I'd say Socialist), and the core principle of capitalism is competition. If our best people are to rise to the top, they have to do start with access to education.

I have faith that my fellow citizens will do what they can for their children. While to me that means my little children go the right pre-school, for another family that might mean their kids stay home from school so they don't have to hire someone to work in their struggling pizza shop, so that the family doesn't lose its business. As I said, I really don't think the govenrment invented this law arbitrarily.

As for the government-run education system, again I ask you to illustrate the alternative. If Guilford Co., NC has one set of educational standards, and Sonoma County, CA has another, how will we ensure that all of our children are getting access to the appropriate education? Again, for me it goes back to getting the best out of our future contributors to society. In Tractorstop, Alabama, they might decide that literacy is not as important as knowing how to hitch a mule, or in Parkbench, Hawaii, they might decide that knowing Algebra is secondary to kowing how to be a hotel maid. How does that prepare the folks who don't want to be farmers and hotel maids to succeed?

I could go on, but it's almost a holiday weekend and my fingers are weary (plus I have to earn a living). Have a good one. I'll check back later if you're still jonesing for the "Dao of Howie" (or "How-Dao").

Howie: "We all want to succeed as a capitalist nation (bet you thought I'd say Socialist), and the core principle of capitalism is competition."

Exactly Howie, and schools should be the same way, based upon a capitalist system with competition. However our school system is more communist in style, the govt. dictates which public school our kids attend, what they will learn, the schools are topheavy on bureaucrats with too much job security, etc.

I would love to see the public school system abolished. Take the tax money and give an equal amount based upon the number of children to every parent or guardian. This would be an account that can only be used for education. Parents will be able to use this money and choose what kind of school(s) and where to send their children. With competition, schools will continualy improve their product to attract more market share.

Private schools are quite expensive now because the market is relatively small. Add all the rest of the children currently in public schools, the market rises dramatically and the prices will come down while the quality will go up. Those who wish to put their kids in pricy schools pay the difference out of pocket.

Imagine if the govt. ran one huge cell phone company and you had to buy your cell phone and service from them with no competition. Do you think you could get a free cell phone with gazillions of features and pay $40 a month to use it? No way. Competition has led to the variety of phones, calling plans, service quality, and low prices that we have today.

Competition in schools would do the exact same thing.

I realize this is a pipe dream, as the govt. will never relinquish it's monopoly on the education of our children.

Ya know, I always heard the flag wavers say "America, Love it or Leave it". They've been saying it since I was a kid in the 60's and had hair that touched the top of me ears. "What are you, a Boy or a Girl".

For the past 200 years, THE hallmark of America has been locally contolled schools, with a "free" education for all. Education was the great equalizer, we had it, the rest of the world didn;t. Access to Education MADE america competative 'cause any kid with half an inkling could get the knowledge he needed to create, to build and live the American Dream. Then he couyld hire others, helping them live the American Dream too.

==

Now there is a very vocal crowd waving the flag and chanting "America, Love it or Leave it" .. but they want to remake the education system into an aristocracy based program. They say "let the schools compete", which translates to if you have money, can send your kid to a great place. Parents that don't have money send their kids to get only what they can afford - and often that means handicapped from kindergarden.

The "America, Love it or Leave it" chant has become the great divider.

James,

I understand what you are saying, but in Dan's example everyone WOULD have money, provided by the government. I'm not sure how the illegal aliens would get theirs, however.

I can see about a zillion problems with letting parents have the responsibility for their kid's education (which is what Dan's suggestion sounds like). I mean, all parents are not created equally. Despite the money issue, is it fair for one kid to have an advantage over another due to how savvy or how stupid their parents are?

I don't have the answers. Just pickin'.

Happy Labor Day to all (or at least to all who labor)!

What are the zillion problems with letting the parents having responsibility for their own children's education Nit?

Why is there this idea that parents are too stupid to make a choice for their child's education? Does govt. have to make all our choices for them? Granted there are some stupid people out there, but if they are smart enough to choose a cell phone plan or a place to live then they should be able to choose a school for their kid's education. We could even add a few counselors in the equation to help.

JDR, I know you have a fundamental aversion to competition. You probably fear that eeeeeevvvvviiiillll corporations will take over the education of our children and they would be attending Wal-Mart High. Yes there would be corporations offering education under my plan, but there would be alternatives too, which would be free based upon tax reimbursements.

You fail to realize that every parent would get money to use for education. Yes, some could afford better schools than others, but some can do that already, so what is the difference? If you introduced a mass volume of public school kids into the "capitalist" system, services would improve just like they do for everything else under this system because of COMPETITION and prices would go down.

BTW, competative is spelled competitive. Sea what dem publik skools do to ya?

oh I understand competiton Dan, I just don't see K-10 education as an area where we should encourage competition; other examples would be police, fire put-er-ut-ers, military, water & sewer (unless population density is really low), etc.

I have said all along parents HAVE the responsibility for their kid's education - like it or not. My rub is Flag Wavers have let go of the local system, where your neighbor is on the school board, working for the interests of the community at large. Spending your money wisely - or you'll give the board members hell at the barber shop next Saturday, and responsive to educational needs of the local store and factory owners - or you'll give the board members hell at the barber shop next Saturday.

Call me Andy Griffith, but I think most of us would be OK living a Mayberry lifestyle as long as Mt. Pilot was sponsering Shakespeare Festivals, and the airport was an easy drive.

Integration needed to happen - but most other Federally or State Mandated school policies are not needed.

The reality is I too want the system Dan does - but unless I miss something, Dan's needs the Fed's involved - which I want to avoid.

Dan's system sound like this:

THe G-Men collect enough from all to redistribute $7,500 per child. I think I heard there are 50 million kids in school - that's a lotta mulla. Have you EVER seen a G-Man program with no strings attached?

Oh I see, this one will be unique.
Hey do you have a bridge to sell too?
Will it be a competitive price?

PS. Please remind me again what "Conservative" means.

ok .. my crew's cutting metal and hanging pipe - here're some random after thoughts while I have a few minutes:

Parenting is one more something that does not work well under a competitive model.

Corporations already pay for the education workers really need. Every company I've worked with - and that's a bunch - has mentioned finding qualified people as the number one issue, and they constantly have in house training, or hire consultants to give seminars. They would MUCH prefer to have some say over what our kids learn - and I'm more than OK with that. The local managers know this, yet the Ivory Tower spends its time and money lobbying Congress for special tax breaks and regulatory variances or special visa's to let truly qualified immigrants enter to do the work. As an added bonus, these qualified immigrants usually have a willingness to work for less than the American worker that'll need to be trained.

So riddle me this: Why are "you people" so adamant about stopping immigrant workers from coming in to do "jobs Americans don't want to do" (absolute BS imho), but so in favor of letting immigrant workers come in to do jobs Americans aren't trained to do?

Here's the rub: Continue this model, and prepare for a chasmed America, or speak and act. I chose the latter.

btw - China works this way:

You want to build a factory there? Chinese G-Men come to you, asking what worker skills you need. They agree to set up trade schools and technical colleges - literally across the street - to give you the people needed to run your new factory.

They also take your blueprints and proprietary documents (part of the "permitting" process). Low and behold - as your factory goes up, another one looking a lot like it is built around the corner. What a coincidence.

Public education is the bulwark of our democracy!

Those who seek to supplant it are the same ones who oppose illegal immigration----well, I've got news for them. The public schools are the one common denominator for America's melting pot.

neoCON cannot string together two sentences without attacking "liberals" or referring to our democracy as a "nanny state" or some other demeaning term. Seems the really unpatriotic folks are those who care little about the mission of public education and more about their own pocketbooks.

World traveler,
The "mission of public education" has morphed into the bureaucrats keeping themselves in a comfy position of power.

Please state for me their "mission" and show me the evidence it is working... if you can do so without going into an ADD rant.

Public education is the last bastion of freedom and democracy in this country. Our children are our future and yet I read things above that chill me to the bone! Self serving hypocrites want to funnel money to religious schools and private academies with the idea their children might be able to avoid attending school with hispanics, blacks, and God forbid, poor people! Vouchers would turn public education into a sewer, as the "Dan" and "neocon's" of the world would whisk their children off to the comfy little church schools..what a crock of crap! Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson are huge supporters of vouchers and have plans in place to create "church schools" for the failing schools engineered by the Bush "No Child Left a Dime" program.

Dan, if you are such a voucher man, why don't you try to make the public system better? Why aren't you interested in your investment?
I think we all know the answer to that question.

That's what I thought...

neoCON,
I've said it before, but you add nothing to the dialogue other than your own brand of cynicism and your own self serving, mostly hypocritical, diatribes. Get a life.

DD, I pointed out my reasons for abolishing public schools. It has nothing to do with race or economic status. I just want competition so our kids will be offered the very best, all of them, instead of the lackluster product offered to them now.

It's the same concept as other products and services, nothing else. Would you rather have a $800 govt. issued "bag phone" using analog technology with the curly antennae on your car roof for $200/month or would you prefer a free mini Motorola digital flip phone with camera, email and text messaging for $50/month?

Education is a service like anything else. Competition would improve it for all. Last time I checked the cell phone companies didn't offer their best services for rich white people. Competitive educational services would offer to everyone as well.

Just about everything govt. does is inefficient compared to the private sector. Witness this recent example that barely made headlines:

http://www.startribune.com/484/story/651341.html

If a private coporation "accidentally" misplaced $318 million there would be at minimum rolled head or most likely jail time.

It's time to get the govt. out of the education monopoly.

"Self serving hypocrites want to funnel money to religious schools and academies with the idea their children might be able to avoid attending school with Hispanics, Blacks, and God forbid, poor people!"...

Is this your "trailer trash" you speak of, World traveler?

I am in favor of getting all children out of the public sewer system we call "schools". And I have spoken of the way to do it, but you closed minded liberals poo-poo this as if I were advocating the end of civilization. What it would end is the stranglehold the liberals have on the young, and allow them to make their own decisions based on facts and not on the likes of Jay Bennish and Ward Churchill.

As far as not adding anything to the subject, you are a broken record yourself. Do you have a boyfriend that is a teacher in the public zoo system?

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