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Dennis,

Would you want to be judged by the actions of a few radical, far right (claim to be) "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics, terrorize women who utilize those clinics, kill doctors who perform abortions and other lawless acts? Your written words make it sound like all Muslims are radical terrorists when, in fact, they are not.

This is the issue I have with some who post here. When confronted with their assertion that "they" want to kill all infidels, the guilty usually say "I didn't mean all Muslims". Still, they do not differentiate between radical Muslims and ordinary Muslims, who btw, are much like themselves.

This whole attitude of "them" (grouping all Muslims together) and "us" (grouping all non-Muslims together) can only serve to futher divide. When I read "the Muslims want to kill all infidels", I automatically dismiss the post because it reminds me of Chicken Little. An acorn (or something) hits him in the head and immediately the sky is falling.

#1-Chicken Little assumed since it came from the sky, the sky must be falling (his perception). This is like assuming since a group of radical Muslims attacked us, all Muslims want to attack us.

#2-Chicken Little's perception was based on lack of knowledge. I would hope, in 2006, we are better informed since we are capable of thinking and reasoning.

#3-Chicken Little's world was very limited so he had a very myopic view. We are only limited by ourselves. If we choose to believe all Muslims are the enemy, we choose ignorance.

Could those who speak of Muslims as a generic enemy please try to think and act in terms of specifics rather than generalities? It would give your posts more credibility and be more conducive to open dialogue. (If you can't tell, I have a real problem with totally black or totally white issues. It is like trying to have a two-way conversation with a post.)

I'm in total agreement with Yvonne as to both the illogical absurdity and counterproductiveness of lumping all Muslims into the category of being hate filled enemies of our very existence.

Yet at the same time I can readily understand how some people can come to that conclusion.

As Thomas Freidman pointed out in his excellent column in Monday's N&R, there is no world wide uniformly recognized authority or power structure within the Muslim religion. The general lack of condemnation to the widespread violence being undertaken by Muslim extremists from the isolated local leaders of that religion becomes even more pronounced under such a circumstance.

That perceived lack of outrage to the actions of the fanatics among them gives ample fuel to the fire of assumption that they are all our enemies, and as inaccurate as that conclusion may be such a lack is easily construed as being a condonement of the murderous and destructive acts of the few.

From a societal perspective we find it incomprehensible that such a situation could exist because it is so alien to our own frame of reference in regards to the initiation of violent actions. No matter how much one of us disagrees with the policies of our government or any other institution, if our own churchs were stockpiling weapons and enticing their members towards mass killings in the name of our religion the civilized among us not only would refuse to participate but would turn them in to the authorities ourselves.

Human nature being what it is, the lack of such a common response within the Muslim world naturally leads to a broad brush condemnation of the religion as a whole.

I'm not asserting that such a condemnation is justified, only stating that it is up to the peace loving members of the Islamic community to become energetically involved in taking back their religion or risk suffering from the same type of assumed justification of a hatred towards members of their own religion as is being fostered in the Muslim world towards others.

Otherwise, and as an American who firmly believes in the Constitutional guarantees in reference to the free exercise of religion I would find such actions to be reprehensible, we may one day find ourselves debating the banning of Islam within our borders as a necessary response in order to ensure our own survival.

And that's when the real war would begin.

""I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education." - Ibrahim Hooper CAIR Spokesman.

"Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations"

Face facts people and get your heads out of the sand. Islam is the enemy. Nearly every armed conflict on this planet involves muslims attacking other people attempting to force islam on the population. islam is violent and must be exterminated if the rest of us are to survive.

Many thanks to RebelSnake for illustrating my point :).

I would describe those who cannot discern the difference between the few nut cases that bomb abortion clinics and the islamic fanatics who hi-jack jumbo jets and fly them into high rise buildings and has a worldwide network as "myopic" and limited in their ability to reason.

jh,
your post was the pc version of rebelsnake - you two ought to post behind each other more often - it's satisfied the faint of heart and also those who don't mind the truth served up as it really exists.good job guys !

Way to go Yvonne et.al. Way to totally ignore what the letter writer was saying, so you could make some polically correct spiel. Who cares if it's "all muslims" or "radical muslims"? The point that Mr. Muelker was making was the constant "outrage" that we hear from the Muslim community, yet they refuse to denounce the senseless,barbaric atrocities committed by their brethren.
And to your point trying to equate abortion clinic bombings to the thousands of murders committed by these Islamic crazies is beyond comprehension. Shame on you.

Me? Faint of heart? Politically correct even?

Have I regressed to that point?

I guess I'm guilty of making the incorrect assumption that my earlier posts on this subject might have been remembered and taken into account. It was naive of me so I'll take full responsibility for the misperception.

My basic assertion is that although I don't feel the majority of Muslims are violently inclined to promote their religious beliefs I find it quite understandable for persons to feel otherwise, and further, that the onus is on the Islamic community itself to step to the fore in combatting the militants and terrorists among their population.

Unless and until they do that, the situation can only deteriorate.

The flip side of that same logic however, is that even if only 2% - what I would consider to be an absurdly ridiculous low estimate - of the world's Muslim population ascribes to the rational of the hate mongers among them it would still represent a force of potential terrorists in excess of twenty million people.

Larger than that of any nationally assembled standing army amassed in the course of world history. (And before anybody takes a dive into Googledom to dispute that statement civilian home defense forces such as the Russians organized in World War 2 are not considered standing armies by military historians).

That is not a threat to be either dismissed or underestimated, and I would never condone such.

I'm a pragmatic old bastard, and I have no problem with the killing of terorists, but as a long term cure the most sensible and effective course of action is to compel those Muslims who insist theirs is a peaceful belief system to step up and take control of the religion they so determinedly defend.

Religions are defined by their actions, and right now they are alowing the terrorists among them to define theirs.

If that's "pc" I apologize, because I just see it as a logical interpretation of an historically chronic situation.

Neocon,

I gotta agree with your post if only by the sheer numbers. Name how many abortion clinic bombings there have been in the last 30 years by fanatic Christians. Now, name how many terrorist bombings and murders that have been committed by fanatic Muslims.

There is no comparison.

Sure, there are nuts in every religion, every race, every country, every demographic.

True followers of Christianity recognize the basic tenants of "Love they neighbor as thyself".

But the religion of Islam is itself a violent religion and it's true followers ARE the fanatics, not the exception.

janherman,

you hit the nail on the head, drove it through the wood, and into the cement beneath it.

jh,
i apologize for using 'pc', apparently a bad choice of wording. really all i was trying to convey was that your post was more eloquent and flavorful as opposed to rsnakes straight forward approach. at any rate is was intended as a compliment to you both.

:-(

Buz,

I wasn't the least bit offended by your comment, but upon reading my own earlier post I felt that it sounded more "wishy washy" than was my intent.

So I rephrased and rewrote. At the rate I'm going by this afternoon I'll be advocating that we just "nuke the towel headed camel jockey scum" and be done with it.

:-).

Yvonne, I think you made some very good points.

While I realize that there are radical muslims and others who are violent and use terrorists tactics to kill those they hate, I feel that the American people are being sold a message of hate and fear in order to further the agenda of those in power. We are all encouraged to hate and fear Muslims, illegal immigrants, homosexuals, and those who threaten "family values"...whatever that means.

I can personally say that I do not hate Muslims, illegal immigrants or homosexuals.

Carol, I can understand your feelings on this and the one's that Yvonne mentioned. In my opinion, when we start casting a negative light on entire populations it just reminds me too much of the Nazi propaganda against Jews.

among those also to be most feared are the secular fundamentalists like carol dunn who try to sell the message that truth is relative, that there are no absolutes.

"American people are being sold a message of hate and fear"....... yes, by muslims whose agenda, is to kill, torture, maim and destroyed any faith other than their own. "they" are responsible for the message being sold. not for one minute do i (or any reasonable person i suspect) believe 'every' muslim acts like the terrorist portion of their religion - but their religion is the common thread which unites them all.and that religion says infidels are to be converted or die. now i for one will not submit nor convert to islam, so i guess i would be killed and the some muslim will say, God made me do it. kinda reverts back to another blog today...their god allah is not the same God i serve.

For those who did NOT get my point: It was not so much about comparing abortion clinic bombings to acts of violence by Muslims as it was to point out how easily people fall into the trap of unjust groupings. I personally do not want anyone to judge me by some radical nutzoid's actions any more than Muslims (in general) do not want to be judged by radical Muslims. When folks generalize, they unfairly attribute negativity and contribute to the resulting hatemongering and fear (as in the ltte and some of the responses).

Futhermore, why should we expect any apologies from Muslims for the actions of a rouge group of crazies who happen to be Muslim? Has anyone from the US apologized for all the innocent Iraqis we have killed? Has the American people stood up to our crazed (with power) administration and demanded they stop imposing their will on other nations, stop the insane spending and stop contributing to the spread of terrorist activities (by meddling and trying to take over the government of other countries)?

Only when we, as Christians, stand up and demand some accountability and responsibility from others who claim to be Christian, can we fairly demand or expect non-violent Muslims to do the same. While the US is more PC about their radical actions, it does not alter the fact that we are involved in radical behavior.

Our government (and radical "Christians") have used our fears, fears that are kept alive and well by them, to control our thoughts and actions. For as long as I can remember, we have been told the sky is falling (thus the Chicken Little reference). From early on it was the Russians. They were going to bomb us, nuke us, destroy us. War was always just on the other side of the darkness. Then it was China, N. Korea and Iran. Now it is Muslims and those of the Islamic faith.

Who's it gonna be next? Canada?

yvonne says,
"Futhermore, why should we expect any apologies from Muslims for the actions of a rouge group of crazies who happen to be Muslim?"............

and JH says,
"Religions are defined by their actions, and right now they are alowing the terrorists among them to define theirs."

i believe jh is on the mark here, it is not about apologies....it is about how we (they) live (actions) our lives. talk is cheap , action speaks volumes.....

Yvonne,

Obviously I was among those who didn't get your point, for I thought it was primarily concerning the unfair grouping of a peoples by their religious affiliation.

As far as "expecting apologies from Muslims" goes my basic attitude is one of "apologies be damned" when people are being killed worldwide in the name of a religion.

Apology alone is useless without actions to prevent reocurrence of the actions being addressed.

I neither blame all Muslims nor hold them accountable, but at the same time it is imperative that those who insist theirs is a peaceful religion take it back from the ones perpetuating the violence. Otherwise the religion itself does eventually and in reality become the enemy, and that is a consequence that would lead to even more destruction and suffering than what is already taking place on both sides of the struggle.

"....... all it takes is for good men to do nothing."

I'm out of here for the day, and I've promised my children I'd go roller skating with them in the park this afternoon, so if you feel the need for further discussion you should be able to contact me at the Moses H. Cone Memorial Hospital Emergency Room.

Sooner or later I'm sure I'll show up.

BTW, interested observer, if wrong is wrong, are numbers all that important? For instance, if I sinned only twice and you sinned ten times, does it make me less sinful than you? Or does it make us both sinners? Is it less wrong to blow up abortion clinics and kill even one than it is to blow up a street and kill 15? When you are in the pit with the snakes, don't complaint if you get bitten 6 times to my one time. (In other words, if you are killing innocent people, you really can't be condemning others for doing the same. We have forfeited any higher moral ground by engaging in aggresive, deadly behaviors.)

Damn Buz, read my mind. Feel free to take it from here :-)

"BTW, interested observer, if wrong is wrong, are numbers all that important?"

Gotta love liberal moral relativism. Almost 3000 people are killed on 9/11, thousands more injured, billions of damage to our nation's economy and this is equivalent to one nutcase who bombs an abortion clinic?

DISCLAIMER: Dan does not support bombing of abortion clinics.

Here is how I read the LTE and some of the responses. Muslims perpetuate murderous terrorism on infidels (and themselves by the way), bash other faiths, launch jihad against us, and apologists like Yvonne cite moral relavitism of an abortion clinic bomber as being equal.

Meanwhile the Pope quotes someone who died 600 years ago as part of a speech and all hell breaks loose complete with papal death threats and Muslim calls for his resignation. Ditto for the Danish cartoonist, Salman Rushdie and anyone else who disagrees with Islam.

Yvonne can post all day with her morally equivalent opinions, yet if she were over in Syria posting the very same she would be shot or hung in the public square.

True, not all Muslims are evil jihadists. I have lived with them in my French dorm building (ironically a majority Muslim population) I have done business with them here, I have hung out with them in social situations.

It wasn't chicken little and the sky falling on 9/11 Yvonne, it was skyscrapers, jetliners and people jumping off buildings. If you equate that to a lone abortion clinic bomber, well that speaks for itself.

Dan,

So sorry about your reading comprehension problem.

"Has anyone from the US apologized for all the innocent Iraqi's we have killed?"

Um, have you read the LTE's the last couple of years? Or listened to the likes of Sean Penn, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Jane Fonda, etc, etc, etc. They not only apologize for the innocent Iraqi's but also the 'freedom fighters'.

Perhaps it isn't Dan's reading comprehension that needs checked.

No reading comprehension problem Yvonne.

"BTW, interested observer, if wrong is wrong, are numbers all that important?"

It is what it is.

Dan,
Wish you had watched Bill Moyers last night. Would have REALLY opened your eyes to how absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Moyers did have a good report, I must say. I consider him a well respected news person.

Shalom

Darryl,
I really believe Dan would benefit from watching that show that aired last night by Bill Moyers. He might realize then, that his beloved FOXNews is nothing but a propaganda machine of the GOP.

If America is seen by the world as a Christian nation, how does going to war with Iraq make Christianity a peaceful religion?

unlike your pacifist quaker cult of christianity, there are others who will do as G-d instructed and put on the armor to fight for a righteous cause...your cult rests its weak faith and foundation on humanistic good works which glorify your cult, not our Lord and Saviour...Eph 2:8