News-Record.com

... you da man, Mike Crotch.

It's good to know you have so well reasoned the Trillion Dollars and full wad of political capital and American resolve that has been squandered on Iraq.

===

btw, Iran is now editorializing that because we had complicity in the WMD's used by Saddam agianst Iran, then America "and certain European countries" should be "held accountable for these crimes".

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=11/4/2006&Cat=14&Num=001

'Mike Crouch speaks my mind'!

The murderers who strap bombs to their children are making their choice be known. They want the party who offers a 'date certain' for "redeployment" to take control of the US government and hand them a victory. It worked in Spain and if the polls the lamestream media is feeding us are correct, it will work here too, thanks to the limp-wristed bleeding hearts who would gladly see America suffer another defeat just as long as George W. Bush was included in that defeat.

THat's an interesting point, Neo.

Two things ... first, please tie the Madrid train bombing to Iraq .. I'd like to see that.

Ok, a more realistic request, and since waiting on Neo for data is like waiting for Global Warming .... ANYONE?:

How has Spain changed post the Madrid train bombing? Are they in fact closer to becoming an Islamo-Facist society? I really don't know and would like the information.

Neo,

We lost the war when George Bush decided to divert our energy from Bin Laden to invasion of Iraq. His personal quest to finish Daddy's work was the defining moment of this "new Vietnam" don't blame those that differ from your tunnel visioned opinions. just cause you can't see the forest for the trees, doesn't mean that we all are so blind.

Hard to believe anyone would write today's lte. Harder to believe that they are actually convinced of this drivel. Again, I ask for some proof that these statements are anything of substance.

If you oppose spending trillions of dollars of borrowed money to wage war in Iraq, if you oppose the loss of American soldiers' lives and healthy bodies and minds, if you grieve for the devastation of Iraq and the deaths of its citizens, some say you support the terrorists. I call this position humane, Christian, and responsible.

"his personal quest to finish Daddy's work"?... you have proof of this or are you just another parrot of the moveon/democratic talking points?

Answer this question and be honest with yourself - which party do you think obl would vote for, given the chance? The party that says they will withdraw from Iraq by a date certain ,and thereby handing them a victory...or the party that has vowed to take the fight to them on our terms?

I'll give you all day to spin this. I'm off to help my daughter move.

like I said, ya might as well wait for Global Warming before expecting Neo to answer a legit question.

cRock-o-feller, you are denying Spain cut and run after the Madrid bombings?

no ... I'm looking for the actual results in Spain of that action - the fundamental shift to the Islamo Fascist World that you are always harping about.

If they are "taking over" - show me. That would be a good example - they "got their way" by using terrorism to reshape the government ... arguable they helped push Spain out of the Coallition of the Willing ... but what'r are we really woried about: The Wacky Islamics having some terrortory to call their own, or The Wacky Islamics taking over the world?

... I sense this is all a new Domino Theory:

If they get Iraq, they'll take over the world.

How about if the Commie's get 'nam, they'll take over the world. Didn't Happen.

I woudl argue it DID happen -- but not until the Commie's converted to Capitalism - and now they are REALLY kicking our butt.

btw, if Spain will abandon the Coalition of the Willing after a single action by a few loose cannons, we need to send GWB over there to tell them about "Hard Work", something he knows little of .. I mean something of which he's a freaking expert.

I'l wait again for that surge in Ocean Temperature.

Carol, Mike is correct that there has been a significant uptick in violence in Iraq. Let's see if it quells after the election.

Who do you think Kim Jong Il supports in the election? Perhaps the same party that negotiated a deal with him in the 1990's that he ignored?

BTW, everyone remember to fill up your gas tanks on Monday. Gas will be going back to $3/gallon perhaps higher depending on what price Bush tells the oil companies to charge.

JDR, Spain pulled it's troops from Iraq after the Madrid bombings. I would say that is a tie to Iraq. Granted only 1300 troops but it worked.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-03-06-troop-spain_x.htm

Personally I thought we went into Iraq with good intentions but I have lost hope that the Iraqi people actually want a democracy that benefits all. I had hopes when I saw the purple fingers at the ballot boxes. I thought a desire for freedom was an innate human nature.

They, with the exception of the Kurds it seems, are so embroiled in their religious differences and the hatred and violence that it spawns. We cannot control it, they will kill each other whether we are there or not.

My worry about the US leaving is that Iran will take the place over and have contol of Iraqi oil. Anyone with a solution to that little problem?

My father, a staunch conservative, thought Iraq was a mistake from the beginning. His reasoning: "These people are incapable of governing themselves, they need a strong dictator to keep them in line". Seems like dad is correct.

Seems Mike has gone off that same deep end many "in a panic" repubs have.

Just a quick comment to Mike C. I think Americas enemies are well pleased with the team that we have in place right now. For the investment of a few hundred thousand dollars they have America tied down in Iraq spending a billion dollars a week not to mention the precious blood of our future.

Our credibility is shot in the world, we have gone from undisputed leader of the world to being seen as the problem rather than the solution in many quarters. We have to trust the Chinese to lead on N. Korea and France to lead in the Middle East (ugh). We left Saudi Arabia just as OBL wanted us to after 9/11.

Trust me OBL would pull the straight "R" lever if he had the opportunity.

"The party that says they will withdraw from Iraq by a date certain ... "

I know of no united / complete party that ways that. A few individuals in both parties say that, and a few also say we should just nuc' from Gibralter East to Reno NV.

" .. or the party that has vowed to take the fight to them on our terms?"

No one fights ANYONE like that terms. The Boxer says "Hold Still so I can punch your lights out - those are my terms". That's kinda a stupid thing to expect, don't cha think?

How you folks can be cognisant and caffinated before 9:00am on a Saturday is beyond me.

Dan - Everyone knows Spain cut and run after the Madrid bombings .. that was not the question ...

... although (as a tangent) it does beg the question of their resolve in the first place when they signed the "For Us or Against Us" call to arms.

Scary - by those simplistic terms, I think it's now only the USA and Britain against the rest of the world, and Britain's talking about heading to the dark side - kinda like the out of step soldier that says "THE WHOLE ARMY IS OUT OF STEP"!

==

Everyone knows Spain cut and run after the Madrid bombings .. that was not the question ...

THe Question was: Has Spain changed? Are they in fact closer to becoming an Islamo-Facist society? Isn't that what we should be concerned with - a fundamental shift of a former "Coalition of the Willing", signalling the start of an Islamo Fascist World?

==

"My worry about the US leaving is that Iran will take the place over and have control of Iraqi oil. Anyone with a solution to that little problem?"

Well my solution was ignored three and 10 months ago. Regarding the expensive carpet from which we're trying to clean the spilled red wine .. if you follow that ...

I've posted before ... secretly beg the "leaders" in Iraq to publicly beg us to leave, that gives us "victory with honor", but also means Iraq will destruct.

Meanwhile, prep' 300,000 troups to be sent in when it goes too far too fast - and prepare for one big ass war caused by a few arrogoant MF'ers who have held regular meetings at 1600 Penna Ave.

Yea .. and on Tuesday, go ahead and reward them by re-electing their pawns.

I think newcomer Rufus T. Firefly has it correct:

"For the investment of a few hundred thousand dollars they have America tied down in Iraq spending a billion dollars a week not to mention the precious blood of our future ...." etc.

... 'cept it's closer to 2 Billion $'s a week

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//2006/11/04/096a420fa941421be9270d66f3d816fb-small.jpg

Now there's a REAL American .. I can tell by the count of flags

It's clear who the enemy is endorsing in the election:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52747

James,

Although I can provide no links, because what I stated in this forum a year and a half ago was opinion, I made the point OBL played GWB like a fine violin. My observation was based on Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". Tzu says no leader will be victorious if they do not know the enemy. GWB clearly did not know OBL but Bin Laden certainly knew Bush. And BL knew how to manipulate Bush.

OBL, imho, wanted to create a diversion and get rid of Saddam at the same time. Only he didn't want to have to be side-tracked from his focus on the US. So he gets help with both problems from Bush. Now why would OBL want Bush and his cronies, ie his party, out of the WH? The GOP has been most helpful to Ossama meeting his goals, whether that was the intent or not. And the GOP has been most instrumental in making China a greater world power (by financing the war with borrowed money from them).

From the onset fear-mongering has been the same tactic of both the GOP and OBL. They continue to use it to manipulate the American people. Spain or the US being taken over by Islamic terrorists is just another fear tactic, again imho. Thank God more folks are refusing to be pawns for any political party.

Great letter, Mr. Crouch.
The Dems goals and the goals of Al Qaeda are one and the same: Get the U.S. out of the Middle East so AQ can dominate the entire region.
Our world is pretty much doomed if we allow that to happen.

Neo,

I don't need more than 30 seconds to make the statement that you and the other deluded neo-cons out there thaty still can honestly support our leadership and their policies need to take off the blinders snd see that what we are doing IS NOT WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!! Staying the course will only cause the situation to erode further. Ther is no sign that the situation is improving. As for what Shrub's goal was when he diverted the country's attention from the Bin Laden chase to Saddam..ofcourse I have no evidence, but I can surmise, as I am objective, something you are not, that could have been the olny goal. There were no WMDs, and there isn't any other rational explanation. You may of course, being in the inner circle of nincompoops, my have privledged information that the rest of us do not.

Well said, Yvonne.

To those who fear an Islamic takeover I ask this question. Are "they" united? The answer is no. There is no way a scattered bunch of terrorists can take over the USA. They can't even get along with other Muslims. They would kill each other trying to take over the USA. If we could name a specific country that is powerful and has fanatical Islamists in power, then there would be a threat. We KNOW that was not Iraq. Iran is controlled by a Islamic government, but are they an imminent threat? Maybe. Pkease tell me who "they" are and where "they" are located.

Don't fall for the Bush fear tactics. The only thing to fear is our administration, IMO.

Enjoyed your input, Rufus. Stay active.

Dan, thanks for sharing your dad's opinion.

Photo: US Troops Terrorizing Iraqis
http://tinyurl.com/ylnb4k
Looks like some kind of gravity sensory deprevation technique.

One only has to look at what is happening in France to see what a concentrated population of Muslims is capable of in a Western culture:

http://tinyurl.com/yx8uva
Hint: Term "Youths" = Islamic immigrants.

This will continue in France until there is Muslim respresentation in Goverment and Sharia Law is allowed to be substituted for French law in Muslim communities.

Hugh, great picture. I really don't know what your point might be. Also don't see that Muslims in France are a threat to us. Maybe we should do a premptive invasion of France to stop their takeover of the country.

Think back, if you will, about 62 months. Were you watching on television as the World Trade Center Towers collapsed? Did you not feel just a little fear?

The only thing to fear is our administration? Don't fall for Bush fear tactics?

Here's something to make any thinking person afraid.... If the democrat party gains control of the House next week, Nancy Pelosi will be third in line for the Presidency. Think she won't spend time trying to initiate impeachement proceedings against both our President and Vice President if it would mean she ends up as President?

I fear the members of the party that have proven they will say or do anything for power. Anything.

Carol, Muslims in France are not a threat to us, yet. I know a bit about France and everyone has seen the riots caused by Muslims. The more the Muslim population grows, the more influential they are. Ditto with Spain, remember it used to be Muslim land and some of them want it back.

This may not happen in our lifetimes, but sheer population growth could allow Muslims to take over some European countries especially as Europe (with the exception of Britain) would be unwilling or unable to defend itself. Maybe the Germans, Northern & Eastern Europeans would see the light, but France and Spain are excellent targets. That is my opinion on Spain JDR since you asked.

We, meanwhile, will be overun by Latinos, some of them would like to have the SouthWest United States back. At least they share a common faith and don't blow up women & children in shopping areas.

Dan,

So if Muslims by population growth are a threat to take over European countries how are these countries including Britain, to defend themselves? Perhaps democracy won't look so great when the majority want Sharia.

At some point in time we have to learn to live with each other or the whole world will start to resemble Iraq.

Three unbelieveable revelations today:

1. Neocon blames Dems for EVERYTHING.
2. Dan's father is a "staunch conservative"
3. "Cackbar" is so desperate, he can't even agree with his own like minded:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15552211/

*************
Mike g & Rufus T. Firefly,
Welcome aboard! You've both caught on to the neocon, Dan & "cackbar" Rush Limbaugh script--"Stay the course even if it leads you off the cliff".

How I love an afternoon nap .. thank the Lord for lazy Saturday afternoons.

Imagine my surprise to awaken finding my good friend Dan is most SCARED of the same Simple Up or Down Vote that we've heard so much about from his very own political team.

It's coming together ... we invaded Iraq to curtail the population there ... the daily sectarian violence we are now seeing is really part of the master plan.

Nic Danger .. wasn't that a Firesign Theater Charactor name?

Fear at the World Trade Center Towers collapsed? Honestly no ... once I realized they went after SYMBOLS of America power, and knowing there were none here ... nope not even just a little fear.

The only thing to fear is our administration? Don't fall for Bush fear tactics?

I don't kow aboutNancy Pelosi, but she is "on record" saying she would not initiate impeachment proceedings ... of course she is a politician, so one never knows. I sure hope not - what a waste of time & energy - kinda like chasing a stained blue dress when Osama was training Arabian Airplane Drivers.

Nic - If fear the members of the party that have proven they will say or do anything for power .. then you must fear the current American Political Process .. in it's entirity - 'cause both parties are guilty. The big dif' is the R's are highly organized, and the D's are a scatter-brained, although I understand Nancy P has brought some discipline to the party - which may not be a good thing for America.

Posted by:

http://www.firesigntheatre.com/albums/hcyb2.mp3

thought so

Gotta love Dan's thoughts on "Muslims in France". Reminds me of the old codgers in the South talking about the threat of "Negroes taking over everything" while Martin Luther King marched. Folks like Jesse Helms exploited white fear and folks like my dear friend Dan want to exploit fear of Muslims worldwide. Not withstanding that Dan and his like minded, will dismiss France on every level, they find it necessary to speak of France and its Muslims now.
I'm just waiting for the "Code Red Alert" right before the election---The Bush November Surprise!

Oh, and Dan here is a good organization for you to go to for "conservative" opinions. I am sure you've never been a part of this group! LOL!
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2006/has-rush-limbaugh-hammered-the-final-nail-into-the-gop-coffin/

DD, I don't see blacks as a threat. In fact most of them protested peacefully for their deserved civil rights. I don't remember MLK Jr. encouraging blacks to torch anything in sight.

You aren't comparing apples to apples and even you I would hope are smart enough to know it. BTW, I think I know just a leeeetttllle more about France than you.

This is a threat:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4407688.stm

Not just France, how about Denmark: Notice the quote from one of the rioters "This land (Denmark) belongs to us".

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts?page=12

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071

Mark my word, we have just seen the tip of the iceberg with Muslim extremism. This will go on for a long, long time.

"Mark my word, we have just seen the tip of the iceberg with Muslim extremism. This will go on for a long, long time."

No issues, Dan .. then I urge you to join in our cry for dealing with it in a productive manner and beyond rhetorical slogans.

First part is ousting the asses that morphed a couple thousand al Qaeda crazies into a growing world wide movement.

THEN let's move on to Part II, which is to JOINTLY come up with a plan somewhere between doing nothing different - Stay the Course, and doing everything different - Cut & Run.

I think we can agree we need to do something different, but to date we've not even been allowed to have a discourse.

.. no one doubt the Dem's do not have a great plan - you can legit'ly argue no plan .. but if you're honest, you'll agree the Rep's do not have a plan either .. just a motto.

So as one always calling for consequences, oust the White House Cronies that have a Motto only with no plan. If you can't bring yourself to pulling a blue lever .. we understand, and will compromise with you and your wife just staying home on Tuesday.

Here's more incentive for Dan: Your links are over a year old and it's fair to say things are now worse.

A sub-link from Dan's link that says it all:

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/Mideast%20terror%20leaders%20to.html

Neo - Maybe Dan'll fly you & yours down for the Retreat.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/rw2006.pdf

You'll enjoy it .. Rush, Hannity, and Ann are all scheduled to be there.

I'm not that critical of David Horowitz - he's certainly a bright guy and seems much more principled than those mentioned above - but I gotta wonder why he's even hangin' out with those mentioned above - guess it's either Money or he's not truely principled ...

.. and maybe he's right .. "leftist individuals and groups support, whether consciously or not, Islamic terrorism .." - but you've yet to give me a reason to change my stance, which is:

>> Oust the asses that morphed a couple thousand al Qaeda crazies into a growing world wide movement.

The William Kristol crowd are .. and I think Horowitz would agree .. organized to the point of danger to the America we all [used to know] and still do love.

>> JOINTLY come up with a plan somewhere between doing nothing different - Stay the Course, and doing everything different - Cut & Run.

Neither the Dem's not the Rep's have a plan .. but the organized bullies have not even allowed any discourse, hiding behind "Hold folks accountable, unless it's US, then quietly Trust Me".

Can't see that terrorists are waiting around to be "embolden" by any American election. Seems they operate on their own schedules and by their own means. Neo's website is just another scare tactic to get people to vote repub.

It's a crying shame when folks put party affiliation above what's best for the people of the US. The repubs have had over six years to improve the situation but have made it much worse instead. When something is not working, toss it out and get something that has a better chance of working. The dems may not have all the answers but the repubs have proven they have none.

Here's a thought ..

Paul Williams, investigative journalist and author of "Osama's Revenge: The Next 9/11: What the Media and the Government Haven't Told You," (Prometheus Books), insists that Al Qaeda has "thousands" of sympathizers and numerous sleeper cells. ... " Williams says his "intelligence" concludes the most likely means of attack would come in the form of a so-called "suitcase (size) tactical nuclear bomb."

SO WHY THE HELL ARE WE NOT CONCENTRATING ON THAT?

"I believe that between now and 2005, Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda will attack the U.S. with (stolen) nuclear weapons, I have no doubt about it," says Williams.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1171627/posts

Well it's about a year over due.

SO ONE of TWO THINGS:

They caught all the bad guys, and we never heard of it. Now do you really believe that would keep such success absolutely quiet?

They were simply wrong - overstating the case out of paranioa or grossly bad evidence - like the kind the water-boarded give - tell them what ever they want to hear in exchange for another breath of air.

Another thought as the sausage is cooking:

You are a Leader of al Qeada, being interviewed by an aledgedly well-connected journalist who asks, "what kind of danger do you pose to the USA?".

Answer one: We are, as your CIA has reported, a few thousand strong and because of the size, technology and therefore success of your military, holed up in damp caves awaiting Allah's help.

Answer two: We have thousands of sleeper cells scattered throughout the USA, awaiting a phone call before they unleash set-to go nuc' suitcases. We are set to distroy at least 4 million Americans.

????

Time to turn the sausage.

.

Listened to "Giddy" Dole this morning on Tim Russert's Meet the Press.

What an old hen she is...even her Republican friends on the show couldn't get her to shut up!

She is an embarrassment to North Carolina and to the great southern tradition of nuancing the language. What a joke we have in the Senate, representing our great state. I can think of many Democrats AND Republicans who would represent us better. Here are two:
Republican side: Jim Martin or Jim Holshouser
Democratic side: Jim Hunt or Mary Easley

Those are just off the top of my head, but I am sure many out there could come up with something better than a woman who refuses to take her own foot from her mouth---hell, Bob Dole would have been a better choice! She is a L-O-S-E-R !

Doubt we'll hear from Danny or neocon today--election is too close for them.
On a pot pourri note, saw this link on another thread regarding immigration. It is worthy of note since migrant labor is very intensive in the two Carolinas and the rest of the sunbelt.

http://cds.aas.duke.edu/saf/migranthousing/pdf/Housing_Slideshow.pdf

The one who posted it was Adelita/Greensboro Native, but I can remember these same conditions being highlighted in the peach country of Gaffney, South Carolina.

"Doubt we'll hear from Danny or neocon today-- election is too close for them"...

Simple thoughts of a simpleton.

I should've said, "Hear anything of substance"

Who's Danny? Does he play with Deacey?

Dan
It does seem you have become a little turned off by what is happening in Iraq. Not so much that your opinion about why we are there has changed but I sense you are less optimistic about a positive result there.

I am "glad" to see that things havent changed that much here. I will only touch on some points here as there are so many.

First Spain; I think it has been rather unfair to equate Spain with this "cut and run" approach. Yes they did leave after the bombing but the reasons behind it goes beyond just quiting and running. Dont forget that nearly 90% of the Spanished opposed any involvement in the lead up to the war. The Prime Minister(I forget his name at the moment as it is 630am here) would have been kicked out of office if elections were held then. He not only stayed in power but his popularity actually grew as he was able to give Spain something it had been missing for decades that was economic growth. The bombings reminded the spanish of the opposition to the war; more important they kicked out a man they felt lied and decieved them( what a novelty) and as one spaniard put it " we are already fighting our homegrown terrorism why do we need to fight someone elses terrorism"
To me that is a little more than "cut and run"

Second while many democrats push for a date to get out of iraq that should not translate that they want to turn the ME over to the terrorists.

And maybe some here can explain something. You complain about this "cut and run" with dates being set to get out. But now even Bush is trying to set "BENCHMARKS" in which our troops can come home. Now once you get past all the BS double talk arent these benchmarks, which have been lowered by the way since the beginning of the war, are they not just republican talk for cut and run as well.

The point being that if you look at the rosey pictured Bush painted about how iraq will look at the beginning of this war, there are few on both sides of the political spectrum who either believe this can be achieved or have the desire to spend the money and american lives and years it would take to make it happen and in general they all want to get out as soon as possible thus the lowering of the benchmarks.

Last: Bin ladens best recruiting tool has been Bush himself so why would he want the democrats?

Hayes,

How wonderful to have your common sense approach expressed in this forum again. I have missed your participation, even when I don't agree with you. Hope you and the family have been well.

Several people have been forced to acknowledge the picture in Iraq is not as rosey as previously stated. To continue to deny the reality threatened any credibility they may have possessed, imho. However, I think many would have "stayed the course" in their support of total wishful thinking had GWB not been forced to admit failed policy, ie, the current "strategy" is not working.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6435503

The Military Times Media Group, which publishes the influential Army Times and other military periodicals, is calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. In a coming editorial, the papers say active-duty military officers have misgivings about war planning in Iraq. Robert Hodierne, senior managing editor of Army Times, speaks with Debbie Elliott.

Hayes,
Wonderful points made for Dan but his protracted intransigence prohibits his movement at this point. Hopefully, some "open minded" folks will see your points and take heed.
One point I like to make, is that fiscal conservatives should be abandoning ship on the GOP. Stay home, or vote for the Dems, but send them a message about their fiscal irresponsibility. It is still funny to hear folks who think Bush and the Republican Congress are "conservative". The only place they are conservative---I would say, "EXTREME" is on social issues, where they used to say that government had no place. Dan wants government out of HIS life but into everyone else's bedroom. It is laughable and is made poignant by GOP Evangelical Activist, Ted Haggard.

Sorry to disappoint here but only my first paragraph was directed at Dan. Again I dont think he has changed his position but after reading his comments he seemed a little disappointed in how things have turned out. The rest of my points were directed at other comments.

I will throw out the first shot or warning. If the democrats win tomorrow as planned in the House and even the Senate all those who have been waiting to say I TOLD YOU SO please dont beat your chest to hard. Gingrich and his Republican revolution badly misread what was handed to them in 1994 and the Democrats should learn that lesson well and fast.

More important pay close attention to how this shapes the republican party. If as predicted most of the republican losses will come in the MODERATE side of the republicans leaving the more hard liners to decide their future and think about the message being sent to any future republican hopeful. If you want to be a senator, congressman or even president you must have our support without it your poilitical life is dead.

Be careful of what you wish for; you may get it and more than you asked for

AMEN, Hayes!

Some have argued that if the moderate Republicans fall in the Northeast, it may form the GOP as a regional party mainly in the South. It will further make my point that the old racists in the Democratic Party ran to the GOP during the Nixon era and and had their prejudices warmly received, nurtured and incubated ever since.
Great book: The Politics of Rage by Dan Carter

Another great book on the subject:
From George Wallace to Newt Gingrich: Race in the Conservative Counterrevolution, 1963-1994