News-Record.com

Where the out pour of support for the people of Fla? Florida are like the people of Mississippi, the press, thinks only NO,needs help. I know of only 2 groups that have helped, the SA and Gods Pit Crew. Of course this people are not on tv bashing Bush, they are sucking it and making the best of it.

Dog,

Apparently you have read something into this letter that I did not. After reading it two more times, I still did not see anything about NO and Bush-bashing. Could it be you have your own agenda here?

As for "Perhaps we should be using our own tax money on our own people and social problems that are crying to be addressed.", I could not agree more. Charity begins at home, whether that home is FL or LA.

The American people are not onboard with the horriffic waste in Iraq nor with the fact it is being financed with borrowed money. We are more than a little tired of having our youth come home in bodybags. There is absolutely no justification for this insanity called the Iraqi war.

Use the manpower now in Iraq and the money we are throwing away there to make America the best she can be.

"Of course this people are not on tv bashing Bush, they are sucking it and making the best of it."

That, friends, is funny. Unintentionally funny, but funny nevertheless.

That said, I agree with Yvonne. In a time when we're taking money from Medicare and Medicaid and giving it to the Pentagon for what portends to be an endless war, we need to rethink our priorities.

Gotta agree, at least on the surface. I've always had an issue with us taking out a government and much of the infrastructure only to rebuild it again with taxpayer dollars. Then again, a lot of American companies and workers are getting paid to do the rebuilding. So, in a way, you're actually putting money back into the economy.

Of course, we all know it isn't a very efficient way to do so.

I beg to differ with those who state that the Bush Iraq boondoogle is using "taxpayer dollars." As yvonne noted, this is happening with borrowed money; i.e., China primarily.

Is it not enough that China and Southeast Asia have already gutted the American manufacturing structure? When will those unemployed/underemployed people stand up to this insane administration and DEMAND accountability? Now is the time!

Shalom

Nit:

Don't forget the first [used to be] $75,000 of those tax-payor dollars (borrowed from China, spent in Iraq) are Federal TAX FREE.

Daryll"

It's really not China and Southeast Asia's fault per se that American manufacturing is being gutted, nor do I think we can really exclusively blame this insane administration.

It is a long standing, and getting worse problem, and no one seems to care - 'cept you and me!

JDR,

I gotta problem with it too and appreciate the fair and balanced approach. Bush has definitely not HELPED the problem in any way, shape, or form.

It should be illegal, period, to actually write a deficit into the budget.

Nit,
I will let you in on little talked about thing that went on years ago. Remember Mr. Ronald Reagan, who campaigned on ridding us of the deficit and paying down our national debt?

HE NEVER ONCE PROPOSED A BALANCED BUDGET!! NOT ONE TIME! NADA! ZILCH!

But to hear the right wingers talk, he was "Mr. Conservative". Now take a look at what the conservatives have done for us.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17007333/

Please read that link and think silently to yourself..."who are these conservatives?"

Gotta love the ones who say this is a rehash! Shame on us for not bucking the war back then!

James Rockefeller,

I'm not one to abandon a debate, but I did need a break from this one because it was so depressing. Here's my latest response if you want to continue:

http://blog.news-record.com/staff/letters/archives/2007/01/fifth_year_of_h_1.html

Jeeze Paul - that's an old one!

As a quick summary - I do not think we disagree on what your promote - only that, unfortunately for us all, we do live in a beyond "critical mass" populations .. and we can't wind the clock back to small societies where your ideas will work wonders.

Yes the USA is part of the artificially grouped tribes ... but it's here, man. I do not think it realistic to disolve the States, and unfortunately large anything requires at least some "planning" of other people's lives .. tyrannical as that may be, that just the way it must occassionally be.

As for why it's necessary for someone to spend years and years "unnecessarily" studying Shakespeare and chemistry when all they want to do is be a brickmason and exercise their right to travel in order to do so ...

Personally, I think understanding the crystal blooming that makes masonry work .. would be an asset to any mason ... but I'm a bit unusual, I admit.

And besides Shakespeare and chemistry are fun!
I really do think so, but do understand not everyone else does.

Of course one can be "responsible" without any education ... but remember getting a HS deploma (which is where this started) does not require that written analysis of Macbeth or learning the molecular structure of sugar.

Getting a HS diploma DOES require you to follow very basic rules and stay awake when you'd much rather to go to sleep - That's about it and frankly those are reasonable requirements for one that wants to drive down the road along side other people.

Curiosity is a natural thing, with untangable benefits. Most folks learning one thing then want to learn something else.

I never met an uncurious child. Have you?

"I do not think it realistic to disolve the States, and unfortunately large anything requires at least some "planning" of other people's lives .. tyrannical as that may be, that just the way it must occassionally be."

A free market will decide how big certain things should be. In a purely free world, I think most people would freely choose to live in pretty large entities (though not as big as the US; think more in terms of states) simply because it would be more efficient. That would mean compromise on certain things, but key is they would be free to secede whenever they wish. That's not asking for much.

"Personally, I think understanding the crystal blooming that makes masonry work .. would be an asset to any mason"

Any additional knowledge is always an asset to anyone. Studying the arts would make a brickmason a more well-rounded person, but it's not necessary for him to be a brickmason, and no one has any right to force him to be well rounded.

"And besides Shakespeare and chemistry are fun!"

Agreed.

"Getting a HS diploma DOES require you to follow very basic rules and stay awake when you'd much rather to go to sleep - That's about it and frankly those are reasonable requirements for one that wants to drive down the road along side other people."

Why can't one simply learn the rules of the road instead of going to high school?

"Curiosity is a natural thing, with untangable benefits. Most folks learning one thing then want to learn something else."

So let's get rid of public education, which forces everyone to go by a certain curriculum, in favor of allowing parents and the children themselves to tailor their own curricula.

Paul:

I suggest you take a couple days off work and go substitute teach in a High School.

True, you do not need to know much more than "the rules of the road" to drive a car ... but attitude is a big part of life .. and them kids in High School have REAL attitude, especially when it comes to authority. So one kids decides he's gonna be the clown and makes an impossible environment for the ones that choose to learn. What'll you do?

They go to the Principals off. They eventually drop out of school -- and you know the drop out rates. Now most of those "Clowns" are really bright - but they never had an incentive to learn discipline.

Where did you learn your discipline? Probably froma parent .. these kids may come from a single mom - 'cause dad donated his sperm 40 weeks earlier and after two weeks of baby cry, he's outta there. Mom's gotta work two jobs to hold her tiny appartment. The kids are left on their own and are learn no discipline.

Guys end up in gangs or jail. Girls end up pregnent and then are forced to dump the kids off with Grandma or settle down and work as cashiers in Wal-Mart .. and the cycle repeats.

--

OK - a lot of stereotypes there ... but usually there is some truth in stereotype.

ALL I WAS SAYING was as much as kids love to drive .. make it a simple reward for learning to sit still and be quiet in 50 minute spurts.

"A free market will decide how big certain things should be."

OK - here' a true story: I live for many years in Delaware - the home of W.L. Gore, maker of Goretex and a very successful company.

When Bill Gore started out .. his first plant grew to about 150 workers, and one day Bill realized he did no longer knew everyone name. He decided that was the "Critical Limit" ... and every plant since then has been built for 150 employees. When a division got larger than that, they split it up and literally built a new plant a few miles away for the next 150 folks.

==

... so if we limit our "States" to 150 folks, your model will work well .. but we're back into tribal mode.

"... let's get rid of public education, which forces everyone to go by a certain curriculum .."

The original intent of "public education" was to give the poor a chance to do better ... and imho it was one great thing that made America what it is today.

EVERYONE could add and multiply so they could be machinists or millwrights or bankers or shop clerks. I swear to God many kids today cannot add or multiply - even simple stuff - without a calculator. EVERYONE could read and write so they qualified for other jobs.

I have no problem with allowing parents and the children themselves to tailor their own curricula. IN FACT THAT TOO was the original intent of "public education" .. all done on a local level - parents decided the curricula needed for the community.

We no longer do that, and it's a shame for America .. I am a strong advocate of "public education" .. but only on a local level. The Federal Intervention has been bad. "In the old days" there was no broad based "revenue sharing" - the business owner made sure the community school system provided him with worker-bees that would serve his needs. The kids that wanted to do it their way often out-did the business owner and ended up with their own business ... and the cycle continued.

Unfortunately, we've sprawled ourselves beyond the simple agrarian model.

sorry for the grammatical errors

"I suggest you take a couple days off work and go substitute teach in a High School."

Why? Why are you challenging me to go find out how bad public schools are when I already know, which is part of the reason I want to abolish them?

"nd them kids in High School have REAL attitude, especially when it comes to authority. So one kids decides he's gonna be the clown and makes an impossible environment for the ones that choose to learn. What'll you do?"

You stop forcing them to come to school, ruining it for the ones who want to learn. Let them work.

"Now most of those "Clowns" are really bright..."

Agreed.

"but they never had an incentive to learn discipline."

Agreed. That's because they're in a "free" daycare center, not a school. Regardless of how poor their grades are, they're not getting kicked out of school. Without "free" compulsory public education, however, they would HAVE to learn discipline because then either 1) their parents would be paying for them to attend school, giving the parents a major incentive to demand that their children do well, or 2) they simply won't go to school and would instead learn a trade and find a job. Then they could help their families with their living expenses, helping eliminate the "need" for public welfare, which you allude to in the rest of the message.

Of course, all of that comes as a result of people expecting the state to provide for them. Get rid of the state, and everyone will have no choice but to cultivate a sense of personal responsibility and discipline.

"ALL I WAS SAYING was as much as kids love to drive .. make it a simple reward for learning to sit still and be quiet in 50 minute spurts."

Sure. But make it a reward from the owners of private roads, from whom everyone purchases the privilege of driving on them, not the state. If I were a private road owner, I would want some level of competency demonstrated before selling anyone a pass to drive along my streets. Not that many streets would often be owned by any individual. In a free market, private roads would more likely be owned by large groups of shareholders due to the enormous cost of road-building.

"... so if we limit our "States" to 150 folks, your model will work well .. but we're back into tribal mode."

The description I wrote last night was very hurried and hence poor. The fact is I don't know how big or small those entities would be. The market would determine it. Market forces can't be foreseen. All I'm asking for, however, is that no one ever be forced to be governed against their will.

"[snip]
I am a strong advocate of "public education" .. but only on a local level. The Federal Intervention has been bad.
[snip]"

Ok. Here's where we agree, James. I'm not proposing that we abolish public education tomorrow. While I'm an absolutist and want complete abolishment of the state, I am an incrementalist. I'm willing to phase it all out a little at a time, starting with the federal government. Yes, let's get the federal government out of education. We can work together on that, right?

Cheers!

" ... they're not getting kicked out of school."

Bingo freaking go. that's it - and why private and magnet schools work better than public schools .. they throw the assholes out. I still say no lisense ... make 'em ride the bus for a few months - there's a reality check!

I'm not yet with you on the private road thing - it would be a disaster imho: drive to NCY and report back to me on the joy of paying tolls every 22 feet.

btw: I have done the substitute teacher thing - for my own experience between clients ...

ps .. as much as I hate large companies - with very good reason - the LAST thing I want is "large groups of shareholders" controlling the roads.

First off, large groups of shareholders want only rapid growth in stock price .. totally disconnected from quality or service as we now see in virtually every entity held by
"large groups of shareholders".

I would further suggest if you let that happen, it'd be similar to what we have now, with lots more inconvienence (see tolls above - or an automatic billing system that would make your head spin .. and so much other negativeity I'm spinning just from the tought.

Nope - I'll disagree strongly until you show me a model that works.

Catch cha on the next thread.