News-Record.com

OK .. now you know my real identity.

.. or at least I am not alone (lol)

It's certainly not news to anyone who's been paying attention to policy that the "conservative" agenda has been a massive failure.

Actually, anyone who can connect facts and figures with a US map can readily see conservatism's failures throughout the deep South and several border states and into the SW. What are hard to find are signs of conservative policy successes - Utah, in some categories, and some of the the upper Mid-West states.
The most successful states balance liberal and conservative policies - many of the NE and old NW territory states, some of the Mid-South and Pacific states, but the successful compromises of moderation get covered up by the bickerings of extremists in both camps, perhaps because they satisfy no one for whom ideology is paramount. So moderate compromise is labeled "liberal" by some conservatives, especially reactionaries, and "conservative" by some liberals, especially radicals. It should be considered the thoughtful consolidation of the best of both camps.

"Actually, anyone who can connect facts and figures with a US map can readily see conservatism's failures throughout the deep South and several border states and into the SW."

Please tell me the failures of the "conservative" South Chris? Tell me why the South is booming with construction of new homes and businesses to accomodate all the overtaxed, unemployed Yankees who are getting the hell out of the NE to find jobs, less taxes and reasonably priced homes.

Even your buddies at CNN disagree with you.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/17/300.million.over/index.html

An excerpt:

"The West surpassed the Northeast in total population back in 2000 and is projected to overtake the Midwest region before 2030," said Linda Jacobsen, director of domestic programs for the Population Reference Bureau, told reporters Wednesday in an online discussion. "The South will continue to have the largest population of any region through 2030."

My sister & her husband moved to NH several years ago but moved back because of the massive amount of taxes and the cost of living. They paid around $18K PER YEAR in property taxes alone on their home. She now has a similar home in VA and pays $2000 per year.

As for the LTE, the problem with conservative politicians is that they are too liberal. Bush thought he could buy favor with Dems with more spending programs like the Medicare drug program fiasco. Most members of Congress, whether D or R, spend money incessantly for pet projects. The genie is out of the bottle.

Mr. Jackson thinks more govt. will lead to fiscal responsibility. It's the opposite, more govt. spending for massive entitlements like universal health care will dramatically increase cost and inefficiency. Our Canadian friends pray we don't get universal health care as alot of them come here for medical treatment.

Finally, an LTTE that is worth publishing!

Shalom

What costs more:

Routine prenatal care for a poor woman, includind birthing and funding the baby via the welfare state for umpteen years...or mandatory birth control for people who cannot afford to raise their own spawn?

Hell, lets just go ahead and replace the constitution with the communist manifesto and be done with it.

Dan, doncha just love them yankees who flee the liberal states to escape their taxes, then preach about how good it was "back home"?

Neo, what I even love more is folks like Tew who state the South is a failure because of it's "conservatism", then state the most successful states include many of the New England states (which happen to lean left, hint, hint).

Meanwhile, while his head is in the sand, New Englanders are moving here in droves because of failed liberal policies including excessive taxation.

Don't even get me started on unions, but look at the auto industry. The US auto industry is bleeding red while the Japanese industry is flourishing. Japanese auto plants are being built in the South, you know those failed "conservative" states, not Detroit or New England. Gee I wonder why?

"The South will continue to have the largest population of any region through 2030."

Dan - I won't argue the taxes .. although you know there're always two sides to every story ... but the perspective of several folks I know who have recent moved here from Jersey is this: It's just too damn crowded up there. The moratorium on new home construction in their counties (same reason) was the final straw.

I know when I go visit the traffic there is nutty. We are relatively spoiled here in that regard, although it will get steadily worse here too.

As for the car factories - certainly the lack of strong unions has always been an incentive for this area, as has the availability - still - of huge tracks of land.

I too would like to see Chris' data for "the failures of the conservative South ..

However - I gave you my reasons - right or wrong - about "why the South is booming with construction of new homes and businesses", however there was nothing in your link about "overtaxed, unemployed Yankees who are getting the hell out of the NE to find jobs, less taxes and reasonably priced homes".

I mean, I have some friends that recently transferred to Vermont .. so .. you're in the same pot as Chris - just an opinion until you provide more information.

OK - break over - back to to the yard!

JDR, as for New England being too crowded, you referenced Jersey. Well duh, of course it's crowded there!!

My sister lived outside of Concord, NH in a rural area without crowding. And my friend Mr. JDR, I did give a specific example: My sister was paying $18K/year in property taxes in NH. She got a much newer, nicer with the same sq. footage in VA for a lower sales price and pays $2K/year.

$16K/year savings in property taxes isn't an opinion.

Lower cost of living was a primary motivator for her to move back South.

Look what $309,900 will buy you in Concord, NH: 2 bed 2 bath 1330 sq ft on a whopping .3 acres.

http://www.realtor.com/FindHome/HomeListing.asp?snum=3&locallnk=yes&frm=bymap&mnbed=0&mnbath=0&mnprice=300000&mxprice=400000&js=off&pgnum=1&fid=so&stype=&mnsqft=&mls=xmls&areaid=25782&poe=realtor&ct=Concord&st=NH&sbint=&vtsort=&sorttype=&typ=1&x=35&y=12&sid=0855CE30FBE6C&snumxlid=1071002726&lnksrc=00002

Look what $300,000 will buy you in Concord, NC: 5 beds, 3 baths, 3200 sq ft on a (still whopping) .48 acres.

http://www.realtor.com/FindHome/HomeListing.asp?snum=1&locallnk=yes&frm=bymap&mnbed=0&mnbath=0&mnprice=300000&mxprice=325000&js=off&pgnum=1&fid=so&stype=&mnsqft=&mls=xmls&areaid=89694&poe=realtor&ct=Concord&st=NC&sbint=&vtsort=&sorttype=&typ=1&x=75&y=12&sid=0855CEE8BCB8C&snumxlid=1077601883&lnksrc=00002

Need I say more?

So I just proved less taxes and reasonably priced homes. Maybe you can prove the job market is more robust in New England than in the South.

the high cost of liberalism.

One terror leader, Khaled Al-Batch, a militant and spokesman for Islamic Jihad, expressed hope Pelosi would continue winning elections, explaining the House speaker's Damascus visit demonstrated she understands the Middle East.
...Abu Abdullah, a leader of Hamas' military wing in the Gaza Strip, said the willingness by some lawmakers to talk with Syria "is proof of the importance of the resistance against the US.

and then theres this.

The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), the research arm of Planned Parenthood, estimates that there were 1.31 million abortions performed in the U.S. in the year 2000. Of the 1.31 million annual abortions, approximately 90% (1.18 million) are performed during the first trimester. The other 10% (131,000) are performed during the second and third trimester. The National Coalition of Abortion Providers tells us that the average 1st trimester abortion costs between $350-$650. The Women's Medical Center estimates that a 2nd trimester abortion costs up to $3000 (with the price increasing the further along the pregnancy goes). If we take a $500 average for 1st trimester abortions and use a $3000 average for 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, here's what we get: $590 million are spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million are spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $983 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $273 million that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives annualy in government grants and contracts, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion.

and i won't even mention the failed liberal education system.

"(with the price increasing the further along the pregnancy goes)"

That's understandable. The wear and tear on the ice picks that the abortionists insert into the base of the skull must be astronomical...

And then there's the cost of disposal, a full body can't be tossed down the sink drain, now can it?

Literacy rates; educational attainment and drop-out rates; mortality rates for all ages from infants to adults and health issues, especially heart disease, several cancers, and obesity; standard of living as measured by wages vs cost of living and availability and quality of cultural opportunities and community services; crime rates; domestic violence; child abuse; poverty rates; political participation.
Do the comparisons instead of reading fluff journalism. Look at the bottom ten rankings vs the top ten (or 15, or 25, half-n-half) and plot them on a map, then see where the more conservative governments are, the moderate ones, and the liberal ones, or look at Congressional delegation rankings by your favorite conservative organization.
I was born in NC and grew up in the G'boro area. I've lived in IN, NY, CT, MI, LA, and TN before moving back here. No place is perfect. All have pluses and minuses, but the South's problems are mostly the fault of neanderthalish concepts of government, politics, and taxation that date back to the ante bellum period.
There's a reason why Mississipps and Louisiana vie for the bottom in almost every ranking, and why Alabama is not far behind.
Utah proves that conservativism can succeed despite great natural odds against success, but you have to know how and why. One answer is what I read in a small-town Utah newspaper during their debate over a tax hike for education, "We don't like it, but we need to do it because it's the right thing for our kids." Our conservatives, and especially our reactionaries, take pride in not knowing how and why.
As for those who accuse me of unfairly favoring liberal states, I'm sorry you can't read any better than you do. I can only suggst you go back and read my first post again with your glasses on.
Also, if you read in context, I used NE to mean northeast, a larger area, not just New England. However, you're welcome to compare the stats for just the New England states against any equal number of southern states of your choosing. You might also remember that some of the New England states were recently famous for their strict Republican politics which only changed after their economies went down the tubes, but don't let the facts disturb your anecdotal prejudices.

No doubt taxes are a bitch in many states, but you usually get what you pay for in the way of services, infrastructure, and opportunities. If not, that's what elections are for. No doubt employment is a problem in many older industrial areas which happen to be concentrated in northern states, but it is right here in not-river city, isn't it? Don't you conservatives share in the complaints about American corporations sending American jobs (by which is usually meant manufacturing jobs) overseas? Is it liberals or conservatives who bemoaned foreign manufacturers setting up shop in the unionized North before they discoverd the right-to-starve South - and now brag about BMW and Toyota jobs in low wage areas?
We came back for two reasons, family and links to our alma mater. We didn't come back for the quaint southern ambiance.

"All have pluses and minuses, but the South's problems are mostly the fault of neanderthalish concepts of government, politics, and taxation that date back to the ante bellum period."

Can you tell me what is at fault for the Northeast's and upper Midwest's problems Chris?

Why are jobs leaving the Northeast and Midwest? Why are people leaving in droves to live in the South? A warmer climate may factor in, but I think there is much more. Why will $300K buy me a 3200 sq. foot home in Concord, NC but only a 1330 sq. foot home in Concord, NH?

It may be nice to have some infrastructure, services, and opportunities (whatever that means) but that doesn't mean much if there are no jobs and I don't have $300K for a small home and the massive annual property taxes that come with it.

I would say failed liberal policies of excessive unionization and taxation have accounted for the exodus from the Northeast and Midwest to the South and Southwest. And warmer weather of course :)

BTW, you forgot the mention that the South was dominated by Democrats most of the last century. You also mention Louisiana. Yep that place is a mess, not just due to Katrina, been that way for a long time. Louisiana is well known for it's corrupt politics.

Interesting fact: Louisiana went from a period from 1877-1980 without a Republican governor, 103 years!! One Republican from 1980-1984, then back to Democratic from 1984-1996. One Republican from 1996-2004 although he ran as a Democrat only to switch parties before election, maybe in order to win. And of course we now have Kathleen Blanco and the world has seen her effectiveness.

Dan - you might want to look into the Civil Liberty act to get one answer. On signing, LBJ said something like, "We just gave the south to the Republicans."

check out also the relative pay for similary blue collar jobs - nursing in NYC vs. Greensboro.

JDR, get out of NYC and Northern NJ. The Northeast isn't all in this location. Notice I compared the Concords, NH & NC, not the big cities.

BTW it's relative as you say. If I make $100K up north but cost of living is $95K and I make $50K here but cost of living is $47.5K then what's the difference?

My sister & former brother in law moved to NH as his company offered him more money. The pay raise didn't eeeeevvvveeennn come close to the increase in cost of living, particularly property taxes.

So they moved back.

If I make $100K up north but cost of living is $95K and I make $50K here but cost of living is $47.5K then what's the difference?

Consider a car payment - $400 / month is half the grief for a New Yorker than a GBO'er .. some of the extra is sucked by toll roads and parking fees and such .. but it's some fraction of the monthly pop.

===

According to this - there's about a 11.6% difference:

http://swz.salary.com/costoflivingwizard/layoutscripts/coll_start.asp

The cost of living in Greensboro, NC is 8.2% lower than in Concord, NH. Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $45,897 to maintain your current standard of living.

Greensboro, NC typically pay 3.4% less than employers in Concord, NH. Therefore, if you take the same type of job in the same type of company in Greensboro, NC you are likely to earn $48,303.

Just had some trouble with Typekey again. I hate that thing.

Since you keep sticking with NY, fine with me. I may have the same $400 car payment as a New Yorker, but how about the insurance? Gotta be much higher. I met a New Yorker recently who paid thousands each year to park his car, I pay nothing. Gas is more expensive too.

What about the cost of a house? I showed you two houses around $300K in Concords, NH & NC. Remember the NH house is 1330 sq ft. and the NC house is 3200 sq. ft., an 1870 sq. foot difference and the NC house is $9K less in selling price. Which is a better deal?

You guys can go on all day, but fact is fact. The South is growing significantly in population, the Northeast isn't. I don't think better weather is the sole reason.

But fear not, if Gov. "Tax Hike" Mike Easley has his way, NC will be right along with the Northeastern states in higher cost of living. Witness the proposed 1% sales tax that will be confiscated when you sell your home. Sell a $250K house and kiss $2500 of your equity goodbye.

... if you're a mid-level executive, you negeotiate free parking, Dan.

... if you're a high-level executive, they provide a limo.

... if you're a grunt, you take the train (or the bus).

I mean clearly there're many advantaves to moving here - no one's arguing that! I'm just not sure it's the "Liberals" in the Northeast that are driving folks to the "Conservative" south.

I'm still waiting for some data either way .. but I'm young and can wait forever - unlike the song ..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000008ZU001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/002-3308464-2246432

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

"I mean clearly there're many advantaves to moving here - no one's arguing that!"

Read Tew's 10:08 post.

To him the Northeast is superior, no bones about it. I've seen that mentality before from elitist Yanks. Not all, but many.

I've been to 48 of the states, still lack ND & HI. There are a few where I would live other than NC but not many. None of them are in the Northeast.

Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful spots up there, in fact we are going to MA, NH and ME this summer for vacation. But I couldn't have the same lifestyle for the money up there as I can here. After all, airplane hangars are REALLY expensive in the Northeast.

Dan, it seems to me that you're trying to have it both ways. Conservative values are great in NC, though I'd say that NC has had growth primarily due to its periods of moderation - moderate at least for a Southern state, but when other states have problems because they abided by what are generally considered conservative values, you say those states must have been liberal failures.
The problems of the northern industrial belt began long before modern labor contracts and the rise of outsourcing helped push the the old industry heartland into collapse. Capitalists - corporations and their leaders and investors - did not keep up with current best practices. They did not invest sufficiently in new technologies, they did not maintain production facilities, they did not train/educate their workforce to be adaptable, and they reponded to consumer trends that proved to be flashes in the pan - short term gain vs long term survival.
A Ford executive told me over ten years ago that Ford and the other US automakers were only about four years away from making truly fuel-efficient cars. Instead, they turned to making bigger gas guzzlers. This is called lassez faire capitalism, a traditional conservative value, and that was their right, even though it certainly wasn't very smart in the long run for the investors or workers.
Nor is it correct to label those states as uniformly liberal in politics. All have had conservative and moderate Republican leaders about as often as liberal and moderate Democrats. Their legislatures have always had a mix. Our state senator in MI was a moderate Republican, and I voted for her because she was the better candidate. There have even been a very few liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats there when the parties were based more on economic means and goals than social moralism - you don't seem to want to discuss the factors I have listed, but most of them have a strong moral component.
I don't really care where people are moving. Most folks don't have a lot of choice in that matter, and their destinations are not always rational choices even when they do. Humanity is undergoing a period of immense migration worldwide. I think that there's a lot more to this than just weather or economic factors, but like you, I don't have facts to discuss the matter usefully, and I know that anecdotes are basically useless.
You are surely not suggesting that the old Southern Democrats, the mainstays of segregation and anti-unionism, were overt or clandestine liberals - or that many of them have not joined the Republican party to maintain their conservative ways. Let's be consistent and speak of liberals and conservatives, or Democrats and Republicans, but let's not pretend that these appelations are interchangeable except at the most general national level. By any meaningful standard, the South has been dominated by white conservatives for over 125 years, whether they called themselves Democrats or Republicans; the further south you go, the more conservative they've been, and the worse off the average joe has been.
The only thing that Louisiana's politics proves is the same thing that the last election proved: Leave any party in power for too long and it will become corrupt - "all power corrupts ..." I lived in LA for three years, and I have experienced the corruption. It took Republican Cajuns only a couple of years in power to equal their Democratic predecessors. Ray Nagin ran as the conservative Republican mayor of New Orleans, and the world has seen his effectiveness, too. No one associated with the Katrina fiasco has anything to brag about.
You are right and wrong about my preferences. My two dearest friends live worlds apart, one in Michigan and the other in Louisiana. I despair of the grey Michigan winters, and I hate the December mosquitos of LA, but both are good places with lots of good people trying to get through life with decency and honor. I just don't have the option of living in either place now. Same goes for IN, where we keep in touch with a few good friends after 20 years, and CT which is wonderfully near the greatest, most vibrant city in the world (IMHO) without the day-to-day parking problems.
I would not like to return to the Buffalo NY area, but that's mostly because I still remember having an old sump pump that failed regularly and winter weather that really doesn't happen much any more. I do remember the joy of showing friends around Niagara Falls and summer evenings spent at Art Park in Livingston and the delicious frozen custard on the way home. Maybe I would go there again, come to think of it, had I the choice.
BTW, building codes are much tighter in the northern areas where we lived. Though still cardboard boxes by European standards, their houses were much better built than any I've seen in the South. If you want to see really poor construction, visit TN. Houses in the North are also expensive where they are expensive because they are in great demand - another example of good old conservative lessez faire capitalism. If everyone was leaving and there were no buyers, as is the unfortunate case around Detroit right now, then what would happen to the prices, boys and girls?
An elitist Yank? Sorry, my good man, but born in Asheboro and reared in Guilford County. I've seen some, not all, Southerners who can't get their noses out of their armpits and who think that pasty gravy on pastier biscuits is the ultimate delight, though no one I knew ever ate the crap 40 years ago. That cheap kind of regionalism never impressed me. If they don't even know what the best of the South is, they can't have very high standards by which to appreciate anywhere else.

BTW, does this darn Typekey thing ever work?

Chris,

Thanks for your thoughtful and sincere response. My original point was to discuss what I thought was your over generalization that more conservative states (except UT) were failures while more liberal states were successes.

We both know that each state has it's pros and cons vis a vis their economies, lifestyle, infrastructure, politics, etc. I singled out LA as it has long been a Democratic bastion and not one of the more successful states in the union.

"Leave any party in power too long and it will become corrupt".

I agree with you there and feel NC is becoming an example. Jim Black is the posterboy of this phenomena and Gov. Easley isn't helping our state with his incessant hunger for taxpayer dollars.

Never called you an elitist Yank as I'm aware you are from the South. I just said I've seen that mentality before from elitist Yanks.

I'll agree with you that the South has it's fair share of uneducated yahoos, but I've seen 'em elsewhere as well. I just don't care for generalizations from some of our northern brethren that southerners are all a bunch of hayseed, Bible thumping, NASCAR idiots that just rolled off the turnip truck.

It's kind of ironic, I lived in the South of France and the northern French thought the same of the Southerners.

Dan,
And Prussians don't even think Barvarians are Germans, and they absolutely hate Barvarian-themed tourist traps in the US.

Being a reasonably educated and cultured Southerner, I'm afraid that other Southerners who talk up the crudities of the South without having any clue about what it's real areas of greatness are bother me more than do people from other areas.
I've never been anywhere that I couldn't find something to like or admire, and I've never been anywhere that I didn't see something that I thought couldn't be improved by adopting an idea from somewhere else.

As I tried to make clear, the states which do the best for their people are generally the moderate states that take the best ideas from both conservative and liberal politicians - I guess you could always argue that we don't know which ideas are best until they are put to the test, but some states consistently succeed while others consistently come up short, and the general trend follows the above.
I hope no one sees it as anything other than my interpretation of the available data that the general groupings are moderate - best, liberal-second place, and conservative-third. That's just the way the rankings come out on average. Obviously, there are individual states that buck the general trends. Within the South specifically, the more moderate (or less conservative) states, generally in the upper South, come out better than the others.
I use standard US gov't sources and things like the Pew research group and Kids Count, which ultimately derives from US Census data, FBI and state crime statistics, and standard health surveys. I am not afraid to characterize myself as liberal, but I never use the DNC or similar political sites for info, except that I will use Chamber of Commerce and NAM and similar business-oriented groups to get a responsible conservative data set or point of view.

I would say that the Big Island Hawaii comes close to perfection - hope you get to go there someday. See Oahu for the Pearl Harbor Memorial and to honor the war dead, but then get away from there and see the real Hawaii. If you're interested and have the time, the afternoon trip up Mauna Kea to the observatories and a stopover with an astronomy-wise guide at the half-way point parking area on a clear night is awesome! We wanted to take a biplane flight out of Hilo over Kilauea and the lava fields but got rained out, so that's for next time if that next time ever comes. Snorkeling is good, too.

"I'm afraid that other Southerners who talk up the crudities of the South without having any clue about what it's real areas of greatness are bother me more than do people from other areas."

Reminds me of an NC girl I dated one night. A buddy fixed us up. I asked her if she had ever traveled. She said "Sure, I've been to Myrtle Beach three times". End of date. Well I did pay the bill.

Maybe the Prussians don't like the Bavarians because they have too much fun. I've been to Munchen on Oktoberfest and seen the fun. I've also been to a small town of my wife's ancestry on Mardi Gras evening and I must say it was one of the best nights of my life.

We plan on visiting HI next year on our tenth anniversary. Thanks for your tips. Until then, I'm going to MA, NH, and ME this summer and to China in the Fall.