News-Record.com

"I think most of his constituents would rather have the rebate."

imho, most of his constituents are making a mistake - at least as in the form the rebate left the house of Representatives.

Congress Woman Foxx
430 Cannon HOB
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Phone (202) 225-2071
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Speaker Pelosi
H-232, US Capitol
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(202) 225-0100

Senator Dole
555 Dirksen Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Ph: 202.224.6342
Fax: 202.224.1100

Senator Burr
217 Russell Senate Office Building
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Phone: (202) 224-3154
Fax: (202) 228-2981

Senator Reid
528 Hart Senate Office Building
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Phone: 202-224-3542 / Fax: 202-224-7327

As currently configured the Economic Stimulus Package will just send money overseas. Only a small portion will actually stimulate the American economy.

Here’s a better idea:

1 - Encourage, but do not require, manufacturers to accurately label the USA content of their products in a manner similar to the country-of-origin information required by the American Automobile Labeling Act. This should include consumer goods, industrial equipment and subassemblies.

Make false labeling penalties very high

2 - Rapidly distribute to the public whatever Economic Stimulus funds you agree to using Food Stamps, but expand the applicability to all things American, but only against the USA percentage, as labeled above.

2 - Distribute to businesses the Economic Stimulus funds using the IRS tax system, also only against the USA percentage, as labeled above.

Reason WHY 1: Better: American taxpayer money would directly stimulate bone-fide American Industries – the biggest bang – while also fueling the supply companies that support this production.

Reason WHY 2: Faster. For the bulk going to individuals or families, you have to do is print more Food Stamps, no waiting on the IRS.

Reason WHY 3: Faster. American manufacturers will be able to ink new labels much more rapidly than overseas producers - giving them a jump-start.

Reason WHY 3: Spread Out. Businesses take advantage now for the tax advantage, but because they file against it next year .. the affect is spread over time. Lower taxes are realized next year for Buying American this year.

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First you argue about deficits and then you want a stimulus package? The best way to get the country rolling is to cut corporate taxes. Since companies to not pay taxes ( they collect it from you, in higher prices) they could lower prices and give you more money to spend. Its strange you see 100s of letter in the NR about how to run the federal government, however you never see any about state government and their waste. Wonder why?

"The best way to get the country rolling is to cut corporate taxes."

Maybe.

I agree companies do not pay taxes, they merely collect and pass along .. and therefore I'm sort-of in favor of abolishing ALL Corporate Taxes .. at least for the American Portion. For foreign made goods (which are also American Corporations) .. which have foreign governent taxes included in their pricing structure, I'm not sure I go along with that strategy, and am also not sure how to differentiate without getting into protectionism.

That said companies sure use our tax dollars to their own benefit. Here's an example:

Recently I had the "pleasure" of taking the new road from I-40 to the Airport .. talk about an expensive road to nowhere! Perhaps there is an inherence beauty I do not yet see, but it sure looked like a poorly designed and gross abuse of tax dollars.

Why is that being built? I assume to pick up traffic to-and-from the new Fedex center, persumably also for Dell Computers and Honda Jet. If that's correct, those Corporations for whom this advantage is given got off scott free on the funding - you and I the tax payer are funding the bottom lines of Fedex, Dell Computers, and Honda Jet.

"... you never see any about state government and their waste. Wonder why?"

Certainly there is state government waste ... but at least the State must annually balance the budget .. a concept that has escaped every congress for the past I-can't-remember .. But do remember Clinton was the last President to submit a Balanced Budget, & the last President before him was Jimmy Carter.

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" James D. Rockefeller [TypeKey Profile Page] said:

To report abuse offered by the above comment, please use the feedback form at the bottom of any page."

That was cute for one day JDR, but it's quickly growing stale.

Coble or no Coble, this stimulus package is a joke. Borrow $150 billion from the Chinese, give it Americans who are already over their heads in debt, and let them spend it on more Chinese made products!!

True .. It's there to remind folks that many talk a big game: "No G-Men for me!" ... but when it's in their interest, e.g., let's get rid of a nuisance ... they turn to the g-men.

If you find that comment abusive, please use the feedback form at the bottom of this page.

btw - that is in no way to be interpreted as supportive of DoubleD / TLC ... you will note that for the most part, I ignored him. Most folks that are ignored end up going away.

I also did not complain to the g-men. Now you tell me who is the defacto believer in smaller government.

Agreed, JDR, with all your posts in this thread.

Dan,

Nit's post, day after day, was not cute either but I recall several defending his action. He could have handled his beef with TLC differently, imho. I'm sure there were others that did complain without posting their complaint day after dreary day. (This is not to condemn anyone as I feel we all have the right to disagree. I simply feel it was a lot like tattling.)

"The Unnamed One" had gone way to far way too many times. We all know it. The January List should have at least opened some eyes. Let's not pretend anything else would have worked either.

Posting here is not a right but a privilege. A privilege which had been severely abused. Though certainly not alone "The Unnamed One" was easily the worst offender and the primary catalyst to the junkie, BS this side had become.

The N&R was too late on the trigger imho.

We shall see how we go from here. I agree with Dan, JDR. Read the January List again and move on.

As a supporter of the party of fiscal responsibility--that is to say, the party that didn't support the rebate package--I don't support the rebate package.

Nor do I support JDR's kneejerk Pat Buchananianism and its implicit call for a Department of U.S.-First Labelling Regulation. If you want the U.S. economy to specialize in low-cost consumer goods--that is, to have an economy more like China's or Indonesia's--then the plan has its merits. But who would want that?

I must be quite the cynic but I do not believe that there are too many people waiting on their government hand-out check AKA stilmulus package who actually intend on using it to get caught up on their loan payments, pay utilities, buy groceries, or pay off credit card debt. How many circulars for deals on HDTV's, PS3's, new furniture (with no payment until 2009!) will we see when those checks start showing up in the mail. It's plain and obvious that we live in a world that puts the "wants" of the consumer over their basic living needs. This kickback check is a gross and government endorsed example of that...spend, spend, spend. Don't worry about your bills, your credit, or losing your home. Just run out this Spring and buy yourself a big new TV, big enough to make your neighbors jealous.

For just a brief moment I'm going to put down my Popular Mechanics magazine and pile on.

[simpsons kid] "Ha ha!" [/simpsons kid]

Mick: Since you stated “Let's not pretend anything else would have worked either”, I'll add you to the “G-Men for me!" club.

444:

Kneejerk Pat Buchananianism ??

First off, it's not "Kneejerk" .. it is a historically proven method many cultures, communities, families ... have used to survived: supporting each other vs. selling one another down the stream to this week's lowest bidder..

Second: as presented - it is neither Regulation, Requirement, nor Mandate. It is a suggestion, gently encouraged through already-collected funding provided by the US taxpayer. If your company does not want to participate, fine: no label = no use of rebated funds. If a consumer wants to use rebated funds elsewhere (including nowhere or as kindling for a fire) - that's fine too.

Third: Where does "the plan" call for the U.S. economy to specialize in low-cost consumer goods - or any specialization other than "Made in the USA"?

Finally: Please present your learned thesis on why the economy that works best is based on each doing the other's laundry (which is the classic "service" economy analogy).

"Don't worry about your bills, your credit, or losing your home. Just run out this Spring and buy yourself a big new TV, big enough to make your neighbors jealous."

If my plan were implemented (which it won't be) .. perhaps 5% of that "big new TV" would qualify ... so there would not be many takers ... but you raise a good point.

Credit Cards and Mortgages would also not qualify ... otherwise folks would just pay off the card and re-charge that card. Hard Goods Only need apply.

I don't know much about the food Stamp Program, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_stamps

"In May 2002, the Food Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002 was enacted, including reauthorization of the Food Stamp Program. Major changes to food stamps included:

restoration of eligibility for food stamps to qualified aliens who have been in the United States at least five years;
restoration of eligibility for immigrants receiving certain disability payments and for children, regardless of how long they have been the country;
adjusting the standard deduction to vary by household size and indexed each year for inflation;
reforming the quality control (QC) system by basing financial sanctions on consecutive years of high error rate;
replacing enhanced funding for States with low error rates with a performance bonus system based on several different measures of performance;
providing States with several options to simplify the program, including aligning the definition of income and/or resources to that used in TANF or Medicaid, adopting a simplified reporting system, and providing transitional benefits for clients leaving TANF;
cutting E&T funding while eliminating the requirements of targeting those funds toward ABAWDs; and
eliminating the cost neutrality requirement for EBT systems.

The number of people receiving food stamps is UP 50% from 2002 to 2007 .. part of the Compasionate Conservative movement, I'm sure .. and the cost is now about $28.6 billion per year, part of the Fiscally Conservative Congress we've had for all those years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Foodstamps.jpg

"Nit's post, day after day, was not cute either but I recall several defending his action."

Sorry but we totally disagree on this one Yvonne. Nit is a hero in my opinion. This abuse has been going on for years and ignored or unnoticed by the N&R. Basically the N&R was not enforcing it's own rules and someone had to point it out. As one yourself who was the target of the same abuse by others in the early days I would think you'd support Nit's actions.

Of course you are more ideologically aligned with Demon Deacon's thinking and therefore were not the target of his/her daily insults, so perhaps you condoned his/her verbiage?

If Demon Deacon wants to come back and debate ideas in an adult manner without persistent personal attacks, then I'd be the first to welcome him/her back. Otherwise he/she can find millions of other blogs within which to troll and good riddance.

Nit, once again, you are a hero.

Dan,

We will have to disagree about the way Nit handled things. Yes, I have been the target of worse than what TLC dished out, just not as frequently (lately). However, not once did I cry to the powers that be at the N&R. I believe if you are going to participate in a forum where anonymity is the standard, you have to be ready for any jerk to say anything. There are a lot of cowards that blog.

I have stated many time I did not approve of the way TLC presented himself at times. I found the constant attacks, from both sides, to be distracting and useless. Thus I generally scrolled past them.

All the hate spewed by folks in this forum is very offensive to me. But I know it is my choice to come here or not, no one is forcing me to participate. Therefore, I do not generally read nor respond to trashy posts.

Exactly what is accomplished by responding to attacks? What purpose does it serve? Does responding make it stop or does it exacerbate the attack? Who's opinion of you, Nit, Neocon, Hugh or anyone else named is formed by what TLC or any other poster says? I know I form my opinion by how YOU and each individual presents themselves in this forum, not by what someone else says.

We all are at liberty to present ourselves in a positive or negative light. Does that mean no one has the right to post here unless they choose to present their POV in a positive light? If this were the case, most would be banned from posting.

I agree with James in that most of you who agreed with this witch hunt are the very ones who state they want less rules/laws in their lives. But just let one of you get offended and you want the rules to be enforced by the powers that be. I guess the rules are for everyone else.

All I'm saying is, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. When it gets too much for me, that's exactly what I do. I don't, however, complain to the N&R about anyone and expect them to handle my problem with one of you.

Rockhead, you say the state must balance its budget, that is correct. However you fail to mention that NC has had a increase in either user fees, are taxes in every now election year, tax hike Mike has been in control! This taxes take money out of our hand to spend on foolish things like food and clothes, and put it into shams, like high speed internet, Parton Theatre, and the civil rights museum. Its called buying votes, with our money. If I have to read this about the feds, I should read it about state government. A so called local paper should publish this. Every see a lite on Brad Miller, this is some of that so called fair and balanced reporting. I have been buying this paper since 1960 and I have yet to see one lte negative to the things in Raleigh.

JDR and Yvonne,

Add me to you silly Gmen list or call me a tattletale if you like but rules and authority are in place here for just this reason. Do I see a danger in taking things too far the other direction ... ABSOLUTLEY. Somehow I think Allen J can handle this though. How about we try it this way for awhile. Your idea of how this forum should be run was given more than a fair chance and was a dismal failure. Both of you have stated you just ignored the situation... How'd that work out? We still arrived at the same inevitable place. Go ahead and claim the moral high ground. Be a champion of free speech or whatever.

My opinion - Nit is NOT responsible for what has transpired. He relayed facts in the form of direct quotes afterall. I suggest you look up the definition of "witch hunt". Not a particularly accurate description of the situation.

"I agree with James in that most of you who agreed with this witch hunt are the very ones who state they want less rules/laws in their lives. But just let one of you get offended and you want the rules to be enforced by the powers that be. I guess the rules are for everyone else."

My dear Yvonne,

The N&R made up the rules, remember the "attack ideas not people" bit they had? This blog belongs to the N&R, not us. They spend money creating and maintaining it and we get to use it for free. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

If you, me or anyone else wants to post here then we should agree to abide by their rules, they are for all of us, not "someone else".

Imagine if one inconsiderate person in your neighborhood played loud music about every night and continually disturbed the neighborhood despite being asked not to. Imagine the cops never seemed to patrol the neighborhood so the problem continued. Sooner or later someone needs to call the cops and they need to visit this person to tell them to knock it off. So Allen Johnson knocked on Demon Deacon's door.

As Mick stated, your solution didn't work. Nit's solution has already worked. You benefit by not having to scroll through "constant attacks that are distracting and useless".

I really like this blog and it's unique as most of us live in the area and we can discuss not only global and national issues but local issues as well. It was getting to the point however that nothing could be discussed due to one person constantly blaring loud noise.

A few insults here and there I can understand, but I take it you read Nit's list of insults from ONE month only. Thank you again Nit and thank you Allen Johnson, this blog has returned to civility.

Dan,

Thanks for the nice words. I've always found you to be a nice blogger and pretty open-minded. You are a conservative but not so locked in that you can't take or make criticism of your own hijacked party.

I'm not a hero. I am someone who believes in fairness, however.

It took me a while to compile that list. I didn't have any idea how many insults would be there. If I had, I might have chosen just a week instead of an entire month. However, I think the evidence was pretty compelling. Sorry for the multiple posts, I just wanted to make sure this wasn' t swept under the rug.

It's interesting the people who I have not seen post since the Terms were posted. Neocon and TLC vanished. I didn't kick them out. Allen may have, I have no idea.

Is Allen a g-man? I don't know. It's his job to monitor these blogs, not mine. And things would have continued much the same way had I not brought these things to his and John Robinson's attention.

I don't deserve thanks or praise. I was actually doing a favor for a friend. He was booted from these blogs for making offensive comments. In the spirit of fairness, how could TLC NOT at least be warned? I've been warned in the past, myself. Why wasn't the person who warned me taking action against TLC? It wasn't logical to me.

I had planned on simply fading away on these blogs because the inability to converse without being constantly degraded by 5th grade insults took the joy and satisfaction out of being here.

But instead, I thought I'd try to make the blogs a better place instead of just leaving.

Everything is perspective, I guess.

I, like Dan, would welcome TLC to debate, argue, and post. It's the News & Records responsibility to determine whether he meets their Terms of Use. In fact, there's not a single person here that I don't value their opinion. Some, such as R. Bennet, Yvonne, James, and Dan go to great lengths to back up why they feel the way they do. I respect their work ethic when it comes to their posts.

Yvonne, I respect your opinion. Pretty much always have. Sometimes it's a little depressing that no matter how long you've conversed with folks and tried to disagree amicably, you still feel like they'd still rather you just weren't here. I'm glad to see you and Carol posting more regularly. We've agreed on little but I still feel close to you both as I do with many.

For now, I'm gonna take a little vacation myself. Neocon and I are going to try to put the wheels back on his house so we can set ours side by side and duct-tape them together. Figure we'll save on heating costs.

Nitpicker, I find your wanting to censor other people a very hypocriticial stance. Does the following sound familar to you?

Sometime ago, Buckyreeds, who hasn't posted anything recently, reacted to a LTE that had the letters "NY" in it. Nitpicker submitted a post that asked Buckyreeds what the letters meant. Buckyreeds responded "n*gga yo." Nitpicker submitted a subsequent post that included "No you didn"t." He basically set up and then egged on Buckyreeds' behavior.

So, is it fair for you to want to have others removed for their insensitive remarks, while you are allowed to continue to post?

Conundrum, perhaps you haven't ever done this but most of us, including myself, have posted a thing or two that should not have been posted. Nit made a derogatory remark about WFU and I called him on it. He then apologized.

I see this as quite different when compared to a DAILY barrage of insults launched a myself and many others. It still amazes me how some of you guys seem to condone this behavior and call it a witch hunt or censorship.

As I mentioned before the N&R owns this blog and pays for it, therefore they get to make the rules. Unfortunately they weren't enforcing their own rules and needed to be informed of the situation.

Perhaps ideological and political allegiance trumps common decency, you tell me.

Dan, I will tell you. I didn't condone the Liberal Conservative's behavior on this site. I chose and still choose to make my point without having to disparage another person. Belittling someone does not strenghten my point of view. As a matter of fact, I think that it takes away from my argument.

There's quite a world of difference between Nitpicker making a deragatory remark about WFU and his enabling Buckyreeds' racist remarks.

“Your idea of how this forum should be run was given more than a fair chance and was a dismal failure.”

That’s simply not true, Mick. As examples, Neo consistently egged him on, and Dan routinely entered into spitting contests - even cataloging TLC’s posts to toss back at him.

Ahhh, you are referring to my "archive" JDR. Yep, I did use it from time to time. I would also jump into the fray quite frequently as I'm the type of guy who will defend my opinions. Notice how civil this thread has been? Is that an improvement in your opinion?

Is that an improvement in my opinion?

Absolutely.

I can present a hundred items that were g-man created that are improvements.

I can present a second hundred items that were g-man created that are NOT improvements.

TOTALLY OFF THREAD .. but here's an example:

as a preamble .. I think the practice is horrific and frankly do not understand the stagering statistics ...

But the same "Conservatives" that preach & vote "KEEP THE G-MEN OUT OF OUR LIVES .. also preach & vote (and even shoot people) over the Abortion issue - which is nothing but G-Man intervention into a personal affair ... that by the way ... does not even impact an American Citizen.

Ditto Corporate Welfare .. Scream about "Welfare Crack Heads" but support a few tens of billions to Exxon because that "keeps America Working".

“Conservatives are " … one can go on for quite a while .. but it’s all partisan rhetoric. “My Teams Better Than Your Team” .. regardless of any reality.

I read this one in total disbelief:

"the Abortion issue - which is nothing but G-Man intervention into a personal affair ... that by the way ... does not even impact an American Citizen."

Nah, just 44 million people who would have had the chance to be here among the rest of us had they not been sucked into a sink.

Here's only two American citizens who have been profoundly "impacted" by abortion, the parents of Stacy Zallie. Their daughter committed suicide after having had an abortion, aged 21. Stacy's parents established this organization to assist women who feel the pain, guilt and suffering after abortion.

http://www.stacyzallie.org/home.htm

Doesn't even impact an American citizen. Wow.

Conservatives do want less govt. JDR, but we think murder is an exception.

BTW, I'm with you on the corporate welfare gig.

buckyreeds was caught in a wood chipper two weeks ago, his last utterance was ni-!

The Folks in Darfur, Chad, now Kenya and a thousand other places .. are all people too .. people who would be here among were they not murdered .. but they are not American citizens.

If Conservatives think murder is an exception, then why are we not policing there. Where is your outrage?

==

Stacy "never revealed her situation nor her solution"; her parents had no clue. This shame once lead to back alley abortions, where there was "Judgement" and "Shame" without counciling, and the medical care was sub-par at best.

Some argue if we were simply more open about things - if we could simply discuss it without hyperbole and hardened positions, there would be many fewer of these murders, American citizens and otherwise .. as well as fewer suicides. I happen to be one of those folks, and guess Stacy's clueless parents would agree.

JDR, you're right about big-govt conservatism. When conservative want govt to solve a problem, they are forgetting the core premise of conservatism: that govt causes more problems than it solves.

I'm sorry to say, however, that that's the only thing you're right about:

YOU: "First off, it's not "Kneejerk" .. it is a historically proven method many cultures, communities, families ... have used to survived: supporting each other vs. selling one another down the stream to this week's lowest bidder.."

ME: Historically this is true, but you're missing the point: we've progressed beyond these provincial, atavistic ways. Your "proven" method was proven where? In godless and communist countries? In Africa's tribal economies? Thankfully, with free market capitalism we've progressed beyond all that!!

YOU: Second: as presented - it is neither Regulation, Requirement, nor Mandate. It is a suggestion, gently encouraged through already-collected funding provided by the US taxpayer.

ME: It would require a huge govt bureacracy, endless legislation, endless lobbying, etc., etc. There's nothing gentle about it.

YOU: Where does "the plan" call for the U.S. economy to specialize in low-cost consumer goods - or any specialization other than "Made in the USA"?

ME: Isn't your complaint that we can't BUY USA!USA!USA! at Wal-Mart? If it's made, it's manufactured. Service economies (think hedge fund management, not laundry) is where it's at in today's modern capitalistic world.

Brian:

The strongest example where the "Method" was "Proven" is entire Jewish Community.

"Service economies (think hedge fund management, not laundry) is where it's at in today's modern capitalistic world". "Hedge fund management", aka financialization it the model that brought down Great Britain - a shadow of it's 19th century global glory, Diddo Imperial Spain in the 17th century and Holland in the 18th Century.

For clarity: I'd rather Congress do nothing .. by liquidating the money supply they have already rewarded the negative behaviour of the guilty "modern capitalists" .. but "the plan" was only to stop them from making even worse the next foolish step they are hell-bent on taking.

I'm more than in favor of "free market capitalism". I suggest you read my threads with a more critical eye.

"Thankfully, with free market capitalism we've progressed beyond all that!!"

I assume you mean that the write-offs being given the guilty (banks = modern capitalists) mean we've progressed beyond ..

... surely I have missed something - but I don't think so. Definitions shift to make your case.

"The Plan" is a one time deal - to make better a stupid decision Congress seems hell bent on making. My guess is that prominent labeling woud prove successful enough that the zero cost practice will continue.

I repeat - neither Regulation, Requirement, nor Mandate - where you get "a huge govt bureacracy, endless legislation, endless lobbying, etc., etc." is beyond me. Perhaps it is definitions shifted to make your case?

On the last, imagine that your plan were put into place with "high" penalties for "false labeling." With, say, 10 kazillion consumer goods available, who's going to determine whether all the labels are correct? Who will determine the formula for, say, your made-in-America Lexus? Answer: 10 kazillion govt employees, plus another kazillion to enforce the "high" penalties. When business X complains that its widget 1000 is really 25% American-made, not 5% (as determined by above govt employees), whom is it going to hire to get things changed? Lobbyist #1 (of thousands). If you're really in favor of "free market capitalism" (as you claim above), you can see that there's little freedom in this: lots of regulation.

You missed a point, Brian. The Made-in-America status is not [as you stated] determined by "govt employees." It is claimed by the manufacturer. If the maker is a Corporation (pretty safe bet) by definition that Corporation is government-protected individual - but that's another story - and yep they have the same rights as people - yet another story.

As for the AALA - "The domestic content labels were mandated at the urging of the United Auto Workers union and Detroit's Big Three, passed the American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) of 1992".

You'll next claim it's expensive - and it has cost a total about $45 million .. over 15 years. At $3 mil a year for all the car companies - especially considering a car has 20,000 parts to certify - its peanuts. As a successful hedge fund manager you flip that on a daily basis I'm sure .. and "Ellen Dickson, who's the policy public affairs person at Ford Motor Co. [recently said there is No Push to Remove Labels] "That's not even on our radar screens, it's not on our lobbying agenda." For the average widget maker .. labeling costs ain't squat but I confess that's only an opinion.

There is however one big problem with MADE IN AMERICA labeling .. there is so little integrity in business that the FTC had to raise the Made-in-America standards very high to stop the slime ball businesses that were making false claims - http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/04/musareport.shtm - so much for honor among thieves.

As for "honor among thieves", I'd say something like, "Business men generally support the Party of Morality because as Republicans they are moral too" .. but that might be taken as partisan.

Regardless .. turns out you're right after all.

Today's "Free market capitalism" works because the Nanny G-Men protect "Commercial interests". This protection removes the "Free market" part, but you'll overlook reality that I'm sure. The laws of this land are so tilted towards Corporations over people - I mean "Commercial" over "Consumer" - that even when the "Commercial" Seller lies his ass off to the "Consumer" - admits lying his ass off - the consumer can't do anything because existing laws only protect "Commercial" from "Commercial", not "Consumer" from "Commercial".

http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/031752.P.pdf

Makes you proud to be a hedge fund manager, huh? - and just think .. you're doing it all by yourself with no help (yea, right) from the Government from whom you feign wanting to be free.