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Good lte, Ben
But how would the city council fare if they they to live for one month with their families on $6.15 per hour? Could they survive living in substandard rat- and roach-infested housing, having no medical benefits, feeling helpless and hopeless, standing in lines at the soup kitchens?

I'd say "feeling helpless and hopeless" is a choice.

Be prepared for attacks by the "relative poverty" crowd Ben. Every one of them should visit Africa in order to understand what you are talking about.

Many Americans do not realize how fortunate they are to live in this country.

When you live in Whereverville, USA, why would you compare anything to another country? Why not compare it Hooterville, USA? If all things were equal around the world we could equally compare. But things are different, things are not equal. Basically, the only things that we share with the world is people and people problems.

How would you, Ben, like being compared to other students all over the world? Do you think it would be fair and equitable? Even if you are an outstanding student, you are in a group that is considered inferior to students of other countries, say Japan or China. You can say "But I excel in my studies. I have a 4.0 GPA." This is comparing you to other students in the USA, not the rest of the world.

No matter how many children are digging through garbage in Africa or India, hungry children in the USA are still hungry. Everything is relative. Besides, we borrow money from sources around the world to try to keep our government afloat. And you want our government to intervene in another countries' socio-economy problems?

It would behoove you, Ben, to remember charity begins at home. However, if you want to trot on over to another country upon graduation and devote you time and energies to solving the problems in that country, what's to stop you?

Ben:

You are right that poverty in the U.S. does not begin to compare to poverty in less-developed countries, where a poverty standard of a $1 a day is often used.

It is incorrect, however, to say that the U.S. uses a "relative" standard. The U.S. poverty figures are based on an absolute standard that was developed in the 1960s. The U.S. standard is updated for inflation, but unlike other developed countries, it is not set relative to current median incomes.

There are problems in the U.S. standard to be sure. On the one hand, it omits in-kind transfers from the government, like food stamps, Medicaid, and housing subsidies. Including these would make the poverty rate seem lower. On the other hand, it does not account for work expenses and other costs of making a living.

Regardless of where the standard is set, we should be concerned that the poverty rate in the U.S. is higher now than it was in 2000. We should also be concerned that average and median inflation-adjusted incomes in the U.S. are lower now than they were in 2000.

All of us should be grateful that we avoid the severe deprivations of much of the rest of the world. However, it is important to realize that in ABSOLUTE terms, things have gotten worse for many (far too many) people in the U.S. over the last few years.

Just like I predicted, thanks Yvonne.

"If all things were equal around the world we could equally compare."

All things aren't even equal within a mile from my house Yvonne. We live in a modest home and, low and behold, there is a new neighborhood up the street where the homes are selling in the $400-$500K range, double the value of our home. Am I upset about it? No.

"But things are different, things are not equal."

You are correct Yvonne. Things will never be equal here or anywhere else, yet politicians pander on class envy and more social programs in an attempt gain votes on the promise that things will be equal.

Take a trip to Africa Yvonne, it will change your perspective.

Yvonne and Dave,
Your thoughtful posts, although very different, are such beacons among the two uninformed comments before you.

What Does the continent of Africa have to do with poverty in America? Nothing. In fact it is irrelevant. The comment is just a way for someone to pontificate that they have been to Africa.

Dave's comment: "However, it is important to realize that in ABSOLUTE terms, things have gotten worse for many (far too many) people in the U.S. over the last few years." is far more relevant than one citing a "visit" to Africa. In a nutshell, one has meat, the other is pure fluff. When Africa's poverty is truly the subject, not just a mention, then comments like that would be appropriate.

Ben Parker hits the nail square when he says,
"America seems to be the breeding ground for self-absorbed narcissism"

Amen, and Amen!

`

Dan,

Perhaps you should re-read Dave's post. If you are going to cherry-pick a broad statement to prove your own agenda, what, exactly, is your contribution to the discussion?

You say you live in a modest house. By whose standards is your house modest? Is it by your's, your neighbor's or by someone in a third world country? You see, everything is relative.

Do you feel it is appropriate to make comparisons between the way you live and the way your neighbors live, much less people in another country? I know most of us have it better than 2/3 of the rest of the world. So should we fairly be compared to the other 1/3 of the world? I would guess we wouldn't seem so rich then.

Dave is right. We should be concerned about the plight of our citizens who have obtained the level of poverty in the last 7 years.

Do you feel guilty about having what you have when you think about those African families? Does it make you want to live like they do in order to empathize with them? Remember, you are one of the one's who thinks wealth should not be redistributed. Are they simply to "pull themselves by their bootstraps"?

Please inform me as to how we can fix the problem of those starving youths in Africa when we can't (or don't) fix the problems of our own? I mean, if we are going to compare apples and oranges, how are we going to get anything accomplished?

There are a few instances I've witnessed in the past two weeks that make it difficult for me to understand poverty in America.

The first one was a good looking gal in her late 20's, designer sweats, nice hand bag at the grocery buying high end frozen pizzas, snack foods, bags of cooked shrimp etc. and paid the $104 total with a food stamps EBT card. Meanwhile I've just spent the past 10 min trying to figure out how to feed 3 people on $10 for dinner.

Next one was a couple of young folks at a quick stop cashing their $600 government checks and driving off in a blinged out Ford Expedition that costs $80 to fill up.

Third was passing by a low end apartment, cheapest place in town and seeing the side of the building covered in Satellite dishes.

How do I get a piece of that action?

The United States gives over $240 billion dollars in foreign aid annually. This is in spite of the fact that children in the US still suffer needlessly. The idea that "America's poor are better off than most" may have a grain of truth to it, but the children that are affected by poverty ail the most.

I have no sympathy for someone who feeds off the welfare system by being too lazy to work when they've got two good hands, a strong back, and are able to walk around. When these people have roofs over their heads and food to eat, I can agree with the LTE in that respect. However, young children do not have a choice. The billions of dollars the US gives away each year could be used to feed kids here at home.

Have you ever seen a baby boy's bottom cracking and bleeding because his diaper hasn't been changed in days, a little girl's arm broken because the mother claims her daughter was difficult to potty train, or a 2 year-old's hip broken because he wouldn't stop crying? Have you seen the ribs of small children, because they hadn't eaten in days? If not, then don't tell me how good the poor have it in America.

"or a 2 year-old's hip broken because he wouldn't stop crying?"

Has nothing to do with poverty.

Hugh, you show a lot of arrogance in that statement. It is common knowledge that the majority of abused children in America come from poor homes. Further, you know absolutely nothing about the little boy from that statement. I'll agree that poverty does not cause abuse, but to say they aren't related in any way is to be completely blind to reality.

I agree that there are those who leech off the system. I've seen the same types of abuses in the system that you mention above. It infuriates me when I see someone buying nothing but junk food with stamps, then turning around and buying beer and wine with hard currency.

I can't abide by giving illegal aliens and folks too lazy to work welfare checks. However, I do see the need to reroute funding from foreign aid directly to children in need, right here in the USA.

Hugh,

The difference in people's attitude toward poverty here in America has much to do with slobs like you described rather than those in real need. Is it honorable to withhold funds from those who cannot fend for themselves because people play and abuse the system or take out of the system they never paid into?

Giving Medicaid, food vouchers, assistance with living quarters, AFDC and every other freebie to illegals galls me more than giving assistance to slobs. And that burns my butt pretty badly.

Anyone who knows me will tell you I give freely to people who really need help. That's the main reason I have so little money myself. I cannot however, bring myself to say stop all government assistance. We would be hurting those who cannot protect themselves.

I have also seen some of what Bishop speaks of in my job. It takes every bit of my restraint to keep from wanting to do to the adults what they have done to their innocent children. Although I have rarely seen rich people or people of means behave in this way, I am sure it does happen. Point is, there is a distinct correlation between poverty and abuse somewhere in the equation.

The correlation is simply this: people who are too irresponsible to defer gratification, pay attention in schools, get the kind of training required for good jobs, show up at work, etc. are also the people too irresponsible to take care of their children. It's not, as Bishop suggests, that being poor causes you to break your child's hip. Giving to "children" in need means, precisely, giving to the parents of such children.

Clinton used to trot out a formula: (1) wait until you're 20 and married to have a child, and (2)get a high school education, and it's almost statistically impossible to be poor in America. Clinton lied a lot, but that sounds about right to me.

The problem with poverty stats is that they're based on income, not consumption. What you're spending determines whether you're living in poverty.

As for the increasing number of poor, that's basically because we're importing poor people from other countries.

"It's not, as Bishop suggests, that being poor causes you to break your child's hip."

Would you like me to repeat myself?

Bishop said:
"I'll agree that poverty does not cause abuse..."

Now tell me I suggested that being poor causes you to abuse your children again.

I knew we could count on Professor, Dr..., Mr... educated Ribar to sound off on this. As long as people have to make a decision between cell phones, cars, microwave ovens, air conditioned and heated homes, health care etc. etc. blah blah blah then all people will have the likes of "educated people" like Ribar to defend them. So much for individual responsibility. Get off your bottoms and earn a living and stop complaining. This country offers more opportunity than anywhere to be successful. Stop whining!

We do not have POVERTY in AMERICA regardless of relativity. PERIOD!

Yvonne says:

"You say you live in a modest house. By whose standards is your house modest? Is it by your's, your neighbor's or by someone in a third world country? You see, everything is relative

My house is modest, not a dump by any means but not a 5000 sq ft. mansion. Compared to the houses I saw in Tanzania my house is a mansion. Compared to the new development up the road it's modest but I don't really care.

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"I know most of us have it better than 2/3 of the rest of the world."

BINGO!! That's when I hear about people who have never visited a 3rd world country complaining about poverty I have to chuckle as they haven't seen real poverty.

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"Do you feel guilty about having what you have when you think about those African families? Does it make you want to live like they do in order to empathize with them?"

Not at all, no guilt. America gives more people more opportunity to advance themselves than any other country on the planet. That's why people flock here.

We do our part for one child there by contributing money for his needs. It's really inspiring to receive letters of appreciation from him and his grandmother. It's not out of guilt rather a sense of desire to help a fellow human being. Anyone who can afford it could do so.

http://www.cfcausa.org/

Can't live like them, my wife & kids would be pissed off if I relocated them to a hut comprised of twigs and cow dung.

**********************************************

"Are they simply to "pull themselves by their bootstraps?"

Yes, as best they can, everyone with a capable brain and body should do so no matter where they are. We have an exceptional opportunity in this country to do so.

In Tanzania I met many there who have earned an education and become teachers. Others who work in the hospitality industry and do very well. And our beloved guide Robert became an experienced guide and naturalist though very hard work. Robert earned $400/week + tips, an amazing amount of money in Tanzania.

*************************************************

"Please inform me as to how we can fix the problem of those starving youths in Africa when we can't (or don't) fix the problems of our own?"

As mentioned above, one person at a time. That won't offer solutions for everyone, but if you can make a difference in one person's life it is a contribution.

We also assist those who live here with numerous social programs and many abuse it as Hugh exemplifies. Our govt. also gives enormous amounts of money across the globe. Witness GWB's popularity in Africa during his recent visit. Our govt. has contributed significantly to Africa in recent years in HIV, malaria and other related health causes.

Again Yvonne, if there is any way you can visit an African country please do so. You will find a loving, proud people who don't care about material items like we do. Their dedication to family, hard work and making the best of what they have is so inspirational. At least that was my experience. I can't wait to go back.

hugh said:
"or a 2 year-old's hip broken because he wouldn't stop crying?"

Has nothing to do with poverty.

-----------------

The above, coupled with Dan's
"Looky, looky, ....it's worse in Tanzania!!" does little to advance the discourse on poverty. Hugh, your statement is one of total ignorance AND arrogance.

Poverty transcends all other measures in this tit for tat game that the folks like Dan and Hugh engage in.

In our advanced culture, do the likes of Dan EVER think of how things could be, or do they spend their entire life, fat and happy, saying,
"Looky, looky, looky!! There are people worse off in other countries--oh, and did I tell you about adopting a pretend child in Tanzania?!!!"

No, these folks are too busy to work at LOCAL shelters, soup kitchens, and the like. Guess they're waiting on their child (after all, they have a picture of it!) in Tanzania to come over here and volunteer in our soup kitchens, urban ministries, etc.
Irony is, that these same myopic people will turn around and say, "Charity begins at home" when some Senator, Congressman, or President proposes sending foreign aid out. You can't make that kind of stuff up!

God bless America!

`

I didn't know a child was an "it".

Next time you consider sewing the Canadian flag patches on the back packs and trotting off to Paris or London, do something different and visit S. America, Africa or any other area with extreme poverty Demon Deacon. If you don't want to travel that far visit some Carribbean countries and stay out of the resorts.

You may learn something about poverty. Then get back to me.

" .. if there is any way you can visit an African country please do so. You will find a loving, proud people who don't care about material items like we do. Their dedication to family, hard work and making the best of what they have is so inspirational. At least that was my experience. I can't wait to go back."

So do tell, Dan - why are these folks so DESTITUTE? They seem the perfect ROLE MODEL for the "Pull Yourself Up By The Bootstraps" rhetoric we so often hear.

Do tell. I'll be waiting.

"I didn't know a child was an 'it' ".

It is not an it ... but a fetus is not a US citizen .. so if some stupid bitch decides to commit murder in effective Tanzania, why does the US Government get involved?

"So do tell, Dan - why are these folks so DESTITUTE?"

Not all of them are destitute, as I mentioned with the teachers and hospitality workers we met. Also their priorities are entirely different. Unlike us, material wealth is not priority #1, not even close. If I may quote Oprah Winfrey on why she built a school in S. Africa instead of inner city America. She says it all.

“I became so frustrated with visiting inner-city schools that I just stopped going. The sense that you need to learn just isn’t there,” she says. “If you ask the kids what they want or need, they will say an iPod or some sneakers. In South Africa, they don’t ask for money or toys. They ask for uniforms so they can go to school.”

As for your last post, I have not clue what you are talking about. I was referring to Demon Deacon calling the child we sponsor "it". Funny how he refers to the child as "pretend" also, I remember the time he referred to my gay buddy as an "imaginary friend".

"Not all of them are destitute .. "

So you think if they had a choice between eating rice 365 days and having a chicken dinner more than twice a year ... the would pick rice everyday?

Come-on, Dan, get real. OK they don't have "material wealth" as priority #1 ... but I will bet my personal life that given a choice between going over and bumping the thermostat and taking another midnight trip into the snake infested jungle to gather more fore wood .. they would choose the t-stat.

Oprah Winfrey was commenting on how spoiled Americans are .. not on how non-destitute most are in S. Africa.

Sometimes you astound me, Dan.

I concede the last post was off target.

"Sometimes you astound me, Dan."

So what does that mean? We both agree "America's poor are better off than most" (poor grammer ignored).

Does that mean America is a GREAT Country - Hell Yea.

Does that mean America can;t get better? - Hell No.

Do you Really believe the poison spread by Hannity? By the way, Sean and I agree, she is a Hot Babe.

Whether or not the people in South Africa have it worse or not is irrelevant. We should help anybody we can. Who cares where the child you're feeding, clothing, or teaching lives?

Offhand, I can't think of the name, but my church sponsors a program that helps provide start-up costs and training for sustainable farming in impoverished nations. That's the kind of stuff we should be doing (Helping them help themselves (while we help ourselves too (because we're sort of awesome))).