News-Record.com

"In 2005, about $9 billion in taxes was paid. Given that these undocumented workers will never be able to collect these benefits, they are contributing mightily to the solvency of Social Security and Medicare."

For comparison how much do these same folks receive in local/state/federal public assistance? Here in Guilford the county commission or city council no to even determining how much money it spent on illegal public assistance a couple of years ago. Why?

What is the annual Social Security/Medicare expenditure in the US on any given year?

"In fact, economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, these workers provide a small positive effect."

That statement is debatable. In fact it is debated by many economists. You can search the web and find data to support whatever agenda you are pushing. That is the reason I base my belief on observation and common sense.

With all the government handouts to illegals I cannot see how they add anything to the economy. Consider that most make minimum wage (or less) and have several deductions, how much can they be paying into taxes and SS? I think very little.

Also consider what they receive in handouts, ie, Medicaid (Every single hispanic I have admitted to my unit at the local hospital, with the exception of one, has had Medicaid.), subsidized housing, food vouchers (Ever been behind one in the grocery line that paid in cash and not been buying beer?), free health care to those who haven't applied for Medicaid, free schooling, AFDC and on and on. If I got all those things free, I could afford to work for minimum wage also.

Bottom line is legal taxpayers are beyond weary of supporting people who come here illegally, demand "rights" and suck the financial life out of our economy. If you, Ellen, or anyone else wants to privately support free higher education for illegals, have at it. But don't ask me to follow suit. If I choose to spent money for higher education, it will be for family because they cannot get the freebies illegals do.

“To the extent that American citizens compete with immigrants for jobs, such jobs are for the lowest-paying wages usually given to high school dropouts. Such competition can be harmful to our low-wage earners.”

Thus, the letter writer admits that there is a cost to illegal immigration but tries to minimize that reality by suggesting that illegals tend to compete against those earning the “lowest-paying wages” who are mostly “high school dropouts,” as if that makes it all right that their wages are driven down and that they are out-competed for jobs. The reality is that, yes, we do have high school dropouts, but so what? Those people need jobs too. But I will contend that there is a whole group of LEGAL American citizens besides high school dropouts, who, for various reasons, are more suited to manual labor jobs. Just how, though, is a 45-50 year old legal citizen supposed to compete for such jobs against a steady influx of young Mexican immigrants? The letter writer seems perfectly willing to cast that vulnerable group of Americans into the chaos of unemployment.

“What do we gain by denying a higher education to these young people who have graduated from our high schools? Nothing.”

Wrong. Subsidizing higher education increases the incentive for even more illegal immigrants to find their way to North Carolina.

“In 2005, about $9 billion in taxes was paid. Given that these undocumented workers will never be able to collect these benefits, they are contributing mightily to the solvency of Social Security and Medicare.”

This is a horrible reason to support the letter writer’s argument. If this trend continues, it merely means that we are stealing from people to finance our own Social Security and Medicare systems. One of the reasons we have programs like Social Security and Medicare is so that there is a safety net in order to alleviate people from having to endure hunger and pain in their older age. Is the letter writer prepared to see a whole underclass (illegal immigrants) suffer these indignities when they age beyond the point of being able to work? I doubt it, but I also don’t doubt for a minute that in a few years, once enough illegal immigrants get to retirement age, we’re going to start hearing the argument that these people contributed years and years to the system and therefore deserve compensation from these programs.

"“To the extent that American citizens compete with immigrants for jobs, such jobs are for the lowest-paying wages usually given to high school dropouts. Such competition can be harmful to our low-wage earners.”"

10 years ago framing carpenter jobs on residential construction around here paid between $15-18/hr. Now it's $10-12 hour. Wonder why?

I saved this excerpt from a letter --- written by a friend of mine, Paul Nachman of Boseman, Montana --- to the LA Times. Nachman was responding to one of the LA Times many editorials on how lucky we are to have so much immigration:

"The Times thinks that illegal aliens 'contribute to our economy and our society in myriad ways.' Have you ever glanced at the numbers crunched by Robert Rector, formidable domestic policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation? He shows that the average household headed by a low-skilled (i.e., high-school dropout) immigrant costs the rest of us, each year, about $19,000 more in benefits than the household pays in taxes. Some 'contribution'!

"Rector notes, wryly, that an upsurge in the high school dropout rate among our youth would be alarming, but the importation of millions of high-school dropouts from abroad is seen, somehow, as an economic boon."

"That's merely economics. More importantly, the country becomes ever more ungovernable as -- driven by mass immigration — it Balkanizes along ethnic lines, just what Theodore Roosevelt warned us against."

"$9 billion in taxes was paid."

9,000,000,000 in taxes/20,000,000 estimated illegal population=$450/yr. Food stamps, welfare, WIC, and any other public services used each year by a recipient will be well over 25x the revenue collected.

Not to mention the strain on health care. Anyone been to the emergency room in the past 10 years?

There is only one word in the entire letter I can agree with, that is "nothing".

It is time to remind all of our `visiting Guests' that when you go to
another country, it is your responsibility to fit in and learn the
language of the land, not the other way around. In the UISA, the
language is American English, not Spanglish, Frenglish, nor Ebonics
or Ewokese but American English! If you can't read our signs, our
news publications etc then you need to learn how. If those who are
visiting us as Guests want to read things in their native languages
then they need to go back there. It's not that difficult to
understand!
It is time to realize that the government is stealing our hard earned
money. We as citizens of the UISA work hard for our money, well most
of us do. There are the celebrities and sports entertainers who make
millions off the gullible public, yet when it comes to Tax-the-poor
time, who pays the most? It's the hard working slobs like you and me
but not the over-rich Celebretainers, they should be paying more
taxes.
Stand up and let your voice be heard that the government should not
be taking our hard earned money from us!

We MUST protect ourselves from those who would cause us harm! It is
time to do what must be done!
LONG LIVE THE UNITED IMPERIAL STATE OF AMERICA

Ellen, do you think you could manage to think of "undocumented immigrants" as "illegal aliens"?

BIG difference -- and not just in semantics!

Also, how many illegal aliens (a/k/a "undocumented immigrants" in some circles) do you think have become CITIZENS of the United States? And I am not talking about babies born in the USA who become citizens by virtue of United States soil being in the vicinity of their umbilical cords.

Last night, I waited for 5 minutes in line at the grocery store while the cashier tried to explain to the spanish-speaking only customers that they could only get Large Eggs with their WIC.

So, I might not be the most unbiased person this morning.

So, the problem is that we won't to educate these illegals so they can take our higher paying jobs as well or water them down to where educated folks can't make a living either?

I'm not sure I get it.

I'm sure Pricey also wants to let these illegal students pay in-state tuition. That means legal taxpayers of NC get to fork over about $10,000 a year so they can go to school. All the while, tuition goes up every year so folks who have lived here all their lives have to cough up about the same to send their own kids to school.
Yeah, sounds like a brilliant idea.

Go back to Mexico and take your busload of unvaccinated little snot nose kids with you. The only public service we should provide these people with is a way home. If they get sick here and they are here illegally, we shouldn't even offer them medical treatment. Just put em on a train home.

BTW, is anybody running against Pricey? I doubt it or she wouldn't be mentioning a damn word about this until sometime in December.

Oh, I'm sorry. Forget all that I just said. This is for the "children".

And, folks, the illegal aliens problem is not new -- it's just that it sort of snuck up on us!

I remember going to Moses Cone Hospital prior to October 1976 (YES, 1976) and seeing the Spanish-language signs all over the hospital mandated by the Federal government because Cone Hospital was the recipient of Federal funds.

Back then NC didn't have a large percentage of Spanish-speaking people living here. I guess some of the increase in that population might have been brought about when our State government didn't pay attention to the practices of handing out driver's licenses willy-nilly to anyone who showed up with cash in hand. Remember the national news coverage (bad press) that fiasco garnered for our state. Other states wouldn't even "recognize" our state driver's licenses as legal for a period of time back then. Good grief!

And as to Pricey Harrison, that woman is clueless and she isn't in Seattle (more's the pity). When she wanted to pass a bill requiring use of the energy-saving fluorescent light bulbs (which must be used AND disposed of in a particular safe way), I thought then that she must have either a relative or a friend who had developed a "special" service (at a "price" of course) to help with the disposal problem.

Wake up, Ellen. Other than medicare and SS, these illegals pay very little taxes. Why? A worker with (for example) 4 dependents will declare 8 on his/her forms so that very little taxes are taken out of his/her check. Hence, very little is withheld that would be refunded.

People like you go through life seeing things only the way you want to see them.

In response to the many comments about taxes, I would like to explain that there is a difference between income taxes, which can be reduced to nothing because of dependents and other factors, and Social Security/Medicare taxes (FICA taxes) which amount to about 7.5% for each employee. There are no reductions to FICA taxes for any reason. So illegal immigrants as a group paid 9 billion in FICA taxes in 2005, and probably more in 2006 & 2007. That is money they will not get back as recipients when they retire.

Lennie: "So illegal immigrants as a group paid 9 billion in FICA taxes in 2005, and probably more in 2006 & 2007. That is money they will not get back as recipients when they retire."

No question, Lennie, the illegal aliens who work "on the books" so to speak --- as opposed to the 40% or paid in cash (off the books) --- do pay FICA taxes, which offsets some of the federal expenses associated with illegal immigration. But the real tax burden of illegal immigration is on states an localities: schools, healthcare, translators, prisons, social services.

The schooling costs alone associated with illegal immigration are well over 50 billion dollars annually, as I demonstrated in a letter published in the Raleigh News & Observer, excerpt below:

With respect to costs of schooling alone, quoting from a U.S. Congressional Budget Office study, "The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on Budgets of State and Local Governments," December 2007:

* "Analyses from several states indicate the cost of educating students who did not speak English fluently were 20 percent to 40 percent higher than the costs incurred for native-born students."

* "Current estimates indicate that about 2 million school-age children (5 to 17 years old) in the United States are unauthorized immigrants; an additional 3 million children are U.S. citizens born to unauthorized immigrants."

Thus, roughly 10 percent of U.S. public school enrollment is a direct result of illegal immigration. Simple math: 5 million students (who would otherwise not be here) x $10,000 (estimated average annual per-pupil expenditure) = $50 billion in annual costs.

This estimate is low. It does not include added costs of educating students who do not speak fluent English, nor additional capital expenditures required (school construction, debt service) which typically adds 15 percent to total costs.

Tom Shuford
Lenoir

*CBO study: "The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on Budgets of State and Local Governments"
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf

Note: Estimates for costs of educating students who do not speak English fluently: p. 2 of CBO study; estimates of public school enrollment due to illegal immigration: pp. 7-8.

I am appalled by the overwhelming number of mean-spirited, anti-immigrant, xenophobic responses to this well-composed Counterpoint.
Do any of those making these responses claim that the first of their ancestors in this country were born in this land? It is likely that the majority of the comments here were written by the descendants of those who came here as immigrants. They were likely met with not only the hardships of re-settling, but with hostility. They were likely to have discovered many who did not want them here. They may have suffered hardships, poverty, struggle, and disappointment that the land of the free was discriminatory.
These new immigrants should be welcomed, encouraged to achieve and learn and become independent. (Those who wish to have a college education here in North Carolina must pay out of state tuition if they are not citizens. They do not displace in-state students in the classrooms.)
We are, all of us, wanderers on this earth in some manner, seeking to find a better life. Instead of reacting with ignorance, welcome and encourage those entering this country to find better lives, in order that they might contribute to society, thus returning a portion of the gifts they have received.

"We are, all of us, wanderers on this earth in some manner, seeking to find a better life."

The current crop of "wanderers" under discussion's current pursuit of a "better life" is financed by all the rest of us, and there's no indication that will change in the near future.

Considering that, perhaps these people need to keep wandering, particularly in light of their refusal to assimilate into this society when given the opportunity, as all other major immigrant groups have done when coming to America.

What makes us think that if a wave of Uncle Sugar's magic wand would make these people legal, such a thing would actually cause them to be a productive and integrated part of the fabric of America?

The evidence says otherwise.There's no desire within that group for such a thing to happen.

However, there's a big desire among most of the rest of us to change the status quo on the subject of illegal aliens.