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Your Bible is different than mine, Alicia .. for
Luke 6:37 mine says:

“Judge not, unless you are a member of my church, and you shall not be judged; condemn not, unless you are a member of my church, and you shall not be condemned; forgive only members of my church, and you shall always be forgiven.”

There is no reason that peaceful Americans can not share the wealth of this great land (VOLUNTARILY), regardless of faith.
There are a few things that need to be pointed out, however, when you state that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God.
One of these beliefs include a unique path to reunion with God- "No man comes to the Father but through me"- that positions it distinctly different than the others.
The exhortation to "judge not.." refers to personal interactions Christians are expected to emulate in order to glorify God- for after all, once reborn as a Disciple of Jesus, we are no longer judged by our past sins.
It is a difficult and often near impossible task for Believers as well as non-Believers.
It is sad that so many who dissect the Word to fit their agenda do not do enough background research to verify their presuppositions.

It's not the Muslims I fear, it's the Muslims turned "Christian" running for president who want to vastly expand the welfare state that I have a problem with.

I don't think Jim Jones can hold a candle to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

"Many Americans judge the Muslim faith without knowing anything about it ".....

yeah, generalizations (generally) 'suck'.....

reminds me of when I was a very small child and my parents got all nervous about the hippies after the manson group murdered all those innocent people.....

before 9/11, I admittedly had very little knowledge (and no real reservations about) Muslim people. I don't think it is stretching it to say that we (i.e. Americans) learned alot about the Muslim faith on that day in 2001.

Which is why the Muslims only have their OWN to blame about the current misunderstanding that surrounds them.

So.... what do we know, even if we know nothing else? we know that the Muslim faith has extremist groups who would like to take over the world and don't mind murdering large numbers of people (even themselves) to accomplish their agenda.

"The Muslims I have known are kind yet generally upset with Americans’ judgment of them".....

yeah, generalizations (generally) 'suck'.....

I'm glad to see there are like-minded Christians out there who are not afraid to speak up. I once was in a dicussion with a co-worker who was Jewish. When I stated "We worship the same Father", he was floored. All he had heard from my fellow Christians in that office was that he was going to hell. And for Mr. Rockefeller's comment posted to this blog earlier, "I get it!" Good insight (and a good chuckle).

"The Muslims I have known are kind yet generally upset with Americans’ judgment of them."

A majority of Muslims are peaceful Alicia, but there is a track record among their brethren. It was Muslims who bombed the barracks in Beirut in '83 and killed 241 American servicemen. It was Muslims who hijacked the Achille Lauro in '85 and dumped a wheelchair bound Jewish American overboard. It was Muslims who hijacked TWA 847 in '85, killed a US Navy diver and dumped his body overboard. It was Muslims who bombed the WTC in '93, Khobar Towers in '96, our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi in '98, the USS Cole in '98 killing 17 servicemen.

It was Muslims who killed almost 3000 in 2001. It was Muslims who killed 202 innocents in Bali in '02. Ditto 191 killed in Madrid in '04, and another 52 people in London in '05.

This doesn't even account for the multitude of Muslim attacks in Israel, they are too numerous to list.

It is due to a few Muslims that we now have to remove our shoes and place any liquids or gels in a one quart clear resealable plastic bag, one per person mind you, at airport security.

Meanwhile the comparison of the author is Jim Jones. He took hundreds of nut cases to Guyana, most voluntarily, and convinced them into drinking the Kool-Aid. Sorry, not a good comparison. None of the victims of Muslim terror attacks volunteered to die.

So I'm sorry the Muslims you know are upset about Americans' judgment of them. They should be upset that fanatics have hijacked their religion and associated it worldwide with terrorism and death. Yet there seems to be nothing but silence in that regard.

Who is it that gives Islam a bad name? It is not Christians, it is the Muslims themselves.

"Last Friday, Muslim zealots demonstrated in London over the Danish cartoon affair. One man was dressed as a suicide bomber, and a small child held a placard that said, "Whoever insults a prophet kill him." Other slogans read, "Behead those who insult Islam," "Europeans take a lesson from 9/11," and "Prepare for the REAL Holocaust." -- bbc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FKfwz_wKE4

Mullahs say okay to murder ALL non-Muslims, only Muslims deserve life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4&feature=related

Miseries of Christians in Pakistan
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/miseries.htm

Schoolbooks that instill hate upon non-muslims & ex-muslims:

In Malaysia:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/51557

In Saudi Arabia:
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22578

Beheading in the Name of Islam:
http://www.meforum.org/article/713

Hanging & lashing girls for being gang raped:
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10895&size=A

Don't think they just hate Americans or Christians or Jews. They hate "najis", any non-Muslim and claim it as their right to kill us all.

Islam does not need condemnation from non-Muslims, its condemnation stands on its own.

As a person who believes that belief in and following Jesus is the key to eternal life, I too am sometimes upset when people group me with all the "right wing nut jobs" or the "judgemental" Southern Baptist, or the "abortion clinic bombers".

It stings because I don't see myself that way at all and I feel like I can't even talk about my religion without people putting up their guard or sometimes just getting plain rude.

So, from that perspective, I can identify with the letter.

However, I don't generally attack the people who have been hurt by folks who call themselves "Christians". I usually apologize for the behavior of my own "religious" people and try to let them know I don't follow those lines of thought.

Having said that, based on recent events I'd have a much tougher time defending my religion (and my fellow believers) if I was a Muslim.

Piss on anyone who tries to kill Americans . . .

Where do you read about the millions of Muslims rallying at peace walks, giving trillions of tax paying dollars to help other world communities, working with other peaceful groups to encourage unity, praying for Chirstians, Budhists, Hindu's, etc. Where are these 'good' Muslims hiding??? Inside Allah's 70 virgin butt???

If the stone age Muslims want a war . . . I say give it to 'em . . . Allah awaits them . . .

Dan & Truthisfree,

I am not defending terrorists, be they Muslim or Christian. However, you have been quick to justify America's inhumanity to man but condemn those who have no association with terrorists. As ms. malone and Earnestine have pointed out, grouping all Muslims is no more right than grouping all who claim the Christian label. Individuals are responsible for the bombing of all those places listed in your posts, not an entire culture or nation.

I do not want other countries to clump all Americans into any one broad group based on the actions of individuals or groups of individual Americans. To me, it is not an American value nor a true Christian value to judge everyone for the actions of some.

You post as if you think Americans are justified in whatever actions they take against another country but never stop to consider people of other countries may feel the same way about their country. In parts of the world, we are viewed as evil and corrupt. While there is evilness and corruption here and around the world, nothing will ever be solved by judging and acting on judgments because it goes against God own words to us.

Islam is not a religion. It is a tyranical political system that uses religion as one of many means to control a population. It is also a legal system, financial system an all encompassing system of totalitarian rule.....

Stop calling it a religion and there is nothing peaceful about it.

There you go again Yvonne.

"As ms. malone and Earnestine have pointed out, grouping all Muslims is no more right than grouping all who claim the Christian label."

Did you read this statement?

"A majority of Muslims are peaceful Alicia, but there is a track record among their brethren."

Did I group ALL Muslims Yvonne? No, I started my post acknowledging that a majority of Muslims are peaceful.

Did you read this statement?

"They should be upset that fanatics have hijacked their religion and associated it worldwide with terrorism and death."

This again states that there is a peaceful majority that should be upset with the fanatic minority.

"Individuals are responsible for the bombing of all those places listed in your posts, not an entire culture or nation."

Agreed not an entire culture or nation, however they are not merely individuals Yvonne. They are members of very organized Islamic terrorist groups with the goal of killing infidels and installing their religious views on others. There are nations that support them, that is undeniable. And just by sheer coincidence I guess, they all happen to be Muslim!!

It's not like a Muslim guy woke up one morning and decided to bomb a jetliner. Even Richard Reid, the shoe bomber, was a member of al-Qaeda and was dispatched by senior members to blow up AA 63.

"You post as if you think Americans are justified in whatever actions they take against another country..."

Please point out in my post where I suggested anything remotely about actions Americans should take against another country. You won't find it.

"In parts of the world, we are viewed as evil and corrupt." Thanks for the history lesson. I spent a year living with Muslims while in France and had many lengthy discussions with them.

Please try to actually read my posts before responding with something I didn't say. At least you admitted jumping the gun on the not tipping the waiter bit last week. Well you've done the same thing again.

There are proximately 5 million Muslims in the US and 1 billion 300 million in the world.
Violence in the name of Islam is not the religion of Islam. We must understand how important it is to separate the violent extremists who do not represent the religion and those that practice the faith of Islam peacefully and honorably.

As a Christian, I had many fears concerning Muslims after 9/11. It was not until I began to tutor a Somali Muslim immigrant that my eyes were opened. He is the most kind, gracious, and moral man I know. I have met other Muslims now and truly appreciate their contribution to America. They want the same things as all Americans. To live in peace, raise their children to me moral and upright citizens, and enjoy the blessings and freedom we have here in America.
I think if we would all reach out and get to know our Muslim neighbors, our mindsets and fears would subside. Fear is from lack of knowledge. Unfortunately, the only thing we ever read or hear about Muslims are the small minority of extremist who do violent acts and claim they are doing so in the name of God.
Marie

I taught many Muslim students over the years, I never thought about their religion, only knew that they were wonderful kids, until after 9/11 when one came to me for comfort when she was ridiculed by other students. She was one of the finest young women I ever taught. It broke my heart to see her suffer.

Islam is a religion. I suggest that you study the Koran if you think not. There many who are Muslim who are good and some who are bad, just like all "religions". If being a follower of Jesus or Buddha or Mohammad makes you a happy and loving person, I applaud you. We all have to find our way to God. As a Quaker, I believe that there is that of God in every man. To quote Buddy Hackett, we all worship the same God, we just have different ways of doing it.

"The Ten Commandments can be found in the Quran, except with more detail in the lessons."

Here are some of the lessons:

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

There are enough of these quotes to fill twenty pages.

Verelse, somehow, I don't believe you looked for or reffered to verses that are comparible to the 10 commandments. Instead, you chose the violent parts of the Quran that states direction that can be taken literally or not. If you want to take everything literally then why not take the log out of your own eye rather than pointing out the splinter in mine? No violence in the bible? Take a look again. Everything written 1000's of years ago, rewritten and at times in another language is all left to modern day interpretation. Cults tend to make a violent interpretation of their readings from whatever religion they follow while the rest of us can apply modern day civilization and law into consideration. Further, in regard to the Jim Jones example,we all know their have been many more deaths by Christian cults , compunds that also include molestation and multiple wives all who claim to live by the bible.The point is, regardless of religion, we have to treat ALL people with respect as individuals before labeling them as terrorists or anything else because of the religion they practice. I get what Alicia is saying. Are you saying that based on the Quran verses you selected, all Muslims are out for us if we don't follow Allah?

Atticus,

"The point is, regardless of religion, we have to treat ALL people with respect as individuals before labeling them as terrorists or anything else because of the religion they practice."

When did I accuse or label anyone? I would be pleased to live in a tolerant world. I agree we should practice freedom and tolerance.

"Are you saying that based on the Quran verses you selected, all Muslims are out for us if we don't follow Allah?"

You need only read what I said to find out what I said. In fact, I said little, merely quoted from the book that Islam proclaims as the word of G-d.

You, however, attacked Christianity, citing extreme examples. You actually did what you accused me of doing.

Verelse- I AM a Christian. I am not attacking Christianity as a whole, merely pointing out that one can find human flaw and ignorance in the interpretations of any religion. If I was attacking Christians, I would have picked out over 20 of the most violent verses I could find, take 1/2 the morning typing them up, stating there are 20 more pages of like violence and left it at that.

verelse, thanks for the posts.... have never seen any part of Muslim scripture...... it confirms (for me anyway) that violence at all costs (in the name of Allah, of course), is condoned (even encouraged) by the text.

Marie, your statement, "They want the same things as all Americans. To live in peace, raise their children to be moral and upright citizens, and enjoy the blessings and freedom we have here in America." Certainly does not apply to all of them ---- the terrorists who flew the planes in the twin towers were living here as 'citizens' ...and I don't think it was "peace" they were striving for..... no, as I recall, they were striving for jihad... and they (as well as the many others Dan graciously pointed out with his first post) perpetuated the generalizations of late about this group of people BY THEIR VERY OWN ACTIONS.

Hi Carol, glad you offered your student comfort, but I am sure (and hope) you have done that many times for many reasons for many students of many backgrounds.... heck my sister used to be ridiculed all the time because of her (beautiful) red hair .... and as elementary students, we were both "ridiculed' because our parents were divorcing at a time when it wasn't the norm.... I could go on and on, and imagine you all could cite such examples as well. Bottom line, students/ children/ people can be just plain cruel based on the generalizations that we make about one another.

"not fair", maybe, but thats known as human nature and has been going on forever,based on things as benign as hair color to those as important as our actions. That is why what one choses to believe and how to behave is so very important.... ultimately that is what will define us personally, despite what color our hair is or how we practice whatever religion we chose despite what others in the very same group do.

(and I'm sorry I just don't buy the Buddy Hackett quote..... that would be like saying the god that satanists worship is the same God I worship, and I know that just isn't right).

Atticus wrote:
"I would have picked out over 20 of the most violent verses I could find, take 1/2 the morning typing them up, stating there are 20 more pages of like violence and left it at that."

I would be interested to see even twenty verses condoning violence in the New Testament. If you can't find twenty, show me one.

The Old Testament is filled with violence, God's "chosen" sent to take other lands and kill the people. I take that part of the Bible as some history and some writer's justification for killing, not as the word of God.

The New Testament is filled with examples of how to love your neighbor and how to treat one another. If we all followed those lessons, there would be no wars, killings, hatred or prejudice.

As Marie said "They want the same things as all Americans. To live in peace, raise their children to be moral and upright citizens, and enjoy the blessings and freedom we have here in America." I think the same could be said for the majority of people the world over.

However, the leaders of all countries make the decisions, and these are often motivated by greed. Terrorists make their decisions based on hate, no matter what their nationality or "religion".

"but there is a track record among their brethren."

Their brethren? This is more guilt and judgment by association, except now, you don't ever have to have met or spoken to the evil doer, you only have to worship the same God.

Because, Dan, I've always thought it went a little more like this....

It was terrorists who bombed the barracks in Beirut in '83 and killed 241 American servicemen. It was terrorists who hijacked the Achille Lauro in '85 and dumped a wheelchair bound Jewish American overboard. It was terrorists who hijacked TWA 847 in '85, killed a US Navy diver and dumped his body overboard. It was terrorists who bombed the WTC in '93, Khobar Towers in '96, our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi in '98, the USS Cole in '98 killing 17 servicemen.

It was terrorists who killed almost 3000 in 2001. It was terrorists who killed 202 innocents in Bali in '02. Ditto 191 killed in Madrid in '04, and another 52 people in London in '05.

This doesn't even account for the multitude of terrorist attacks in Israel, they are too numerous to list.

It is due to a few terrorists that we now have to remove our shoes and place any liquids or gels in a one quart clear resealable plastic bag, one per person mind you, at airport security.

Terrorism is the evil here, not Islam. It is my opinion that the religion is almost inconsequential to the real motivations behind 'islamofascist terrorists.' The real motivations are land and wealth, just like in any war.

Carol wrote:
"However, the leaders of all countries make the decisions, and these are often motivated by greed. Terrorists make their decisions based on hate, no matter what their nationality or "religion"."

Amen to that. If the US leaders, who constantly pound their chests claiming to be Christian, behaved like Christians, the US would return to its rightful place as world leader in human rights, honesty and charity as well as military might and avoid its label now as corrupt (Wall Street, bankers, etc), morally bankrupt and violent.

Verelse-you took the time to find all of those verses in the Quran but don't know the bible? All you have to do is google "violence in the bible" to get a quick snapshot. . I have studied most religions or at least the most popular ones in college as well as attending Christian Bible Studies. I was amazed at the similarities in religions as much as I was horrified by the amount of violence in the Old Testamant. The wars started in the Middle East due to religion where they remain today, 2000 years later. I had the opportunity to be in class with Muslims from the Middle East as well as from Africa. Everyone ,whether Christians or Muslims was able to openly discuss each religion without judgment or hostility towards each other.Perhaps one day, the wars will stop and everyone will work towards peace and understanding instead.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

There are 23 listed in the book of Matthew alone...

"Their brethren? This is more guilt and judgment by association, except now, you don't ever have to have met or spoken to the evil doer, you only have to worship the same God."

As mentioned before rahrah, the fanatic peaceful Muslims have had their religion hijacked by a fanatic element. It has been going on for years, but 9/11 brought it home in striking fashion, hence the equation of many that Muslim=terrorist, which of course isn't true.

"Terrorism is the evil here, not Islam. It is my opinion that the religion is almost inconsequential to the real motivations behind 'islamofascist terrorists.' The real motivations are land and wealth, just like in any war."

Yes terrorism is the evil, but most of it is Islamic terrorism. Tim McVeigh was a terrorist IMO too, but there aren't too many like him blowing up buildings.

Everyone has their opinion, but if you think religion has almost nothing to do with terrorism, that it's just about land and wealth, then please explain why most contemporary terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims?

2nd paragraph correction, peaceful Muslims, not fanatic peaceful Muslims.

Atticus

Not one of the verses you noted advocates violence to anyone. Your little "quotes" aren't quotes from any Bible I have seen. The writer takes three or four words then appends other things to create a false quote.

I quoted directly.

Try again.

There are many variations of the Bible. Clearly, you are always right. So, what's the point? I won't sit here for hours and qoute every variation out there for you because you spent all morning trying to prove that the Quran defines all Muslims. Ironically, you seem to believe Americans can be Christian and NOT follow the Bible......

"Amen to that. If the US leaders, who constantly pound their chests claiming to be Christian, behaved like Christians, the US would return to its rightful place as world leader in human rights, honesty and charity as well as military might and avoid its label now as corrupt (Wall Street, bankers, etc), morally bankrupt and violent."

So is it possible that since Christians don't always "act like Christians" according to their Bible , maybe Muslims don't always act like Muslims according to theirs ? No need to answer. I have had enough closed mindedness for one day. I am signing off Oh Righteous One!

Atticus, sadly you are unwilling to address arguments without personal labels or attacks.

"maybe Muslims don't always act like Muslims according to theirs"

True.

"...you spent all morning trying to prove that the Quran defines all Muslims"

Again, you build straw men to knock over. I only quoted the book. You take from it what you may.

and finally

"I have had enough closed mindedness for one day"

Another straw man argument. You attempt to belittle and label me in an effort to undermine my voice. Why not just argue your own point instead of putting words into my mouth or make it seem like I am someone beneath you?

rahrah..... "Terrorism is the evil here, not Islam. " really? do you really believe that? as well read as you are?

You should check out that documentary circulating everywhere (Obsession) and see what the --peaceful-- Muslims have to say about what they were fed as children, and see the footage of the way the radicals in this group of people are (currently) teaching their children. The numbers (alone) of the people in the footage is stunning. The peaceful Muslims describe it, (according to their own reports based on their personal experience) as child abuse... :

www.obessionthemovie.com

Check it out, and , as Dan asked, "please explain why most contemporary terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims?"

Atticus: (I know you will check back in eventually...) I feel for your edgi-ness (is that a word?) I've been edgy for weeks and imagine that many others can relate.... guess the question remains as to what we will do about all of that (as a group of people) come "tomorrow"..... my only request is that you try and not simplify the Bible too much.... the whole point of the aBible, and the legacy of Jesus, is based on faith, based on grace, which, (as with the Muslim issue) cannot be simplified......

"I am signing off Oh Righteous One!"

I don't agree with verelse about 70% of the time, however I never find him to be self righteous nor condescending. Rather he is intriguing, factual, and polite.

Please do sign off until you can obtain a better attitude and knock off the chicanery.

... and ( to add, ): should not be generalized.

but that takes work on ALL our parts!

Why are most terrorists Muslim? (Or at least the ones we hear about*?)

Perhaps because Muslims spawn from some of the most valuable lands in the world? I don't mean to be cliché, but they live on an ocean of black gold.

I think, perhaps, to the foot soldiers, religion means something in the battle, but as far as those in charge, Islam is nothing more than a recruiting tool. It has been raped and pillaged in pursuit of greed...as have been many other religions.

*excluding Bill Ayers

Nice use of a French accent rahrah, touché.

By the way, I am soooo fanatically peaceful.

It's unreal.

“I don't think Jim Jones can hold a candle to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.”

Here’s a thought:

The victims of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s evil were to him, nameless and faceless infidels.

Jim Jones know every single man woman and child – at some point he had held each of them in his arms; looking them in the eye to personally bless in the name of Jesus.

Approx. 900 died at the hands of Jones.

You have any reliable stats on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s tally to date?

Here's another thought.

Emotion and whether the monster 'looks them in the eye' or not means naught to the dead victims... it matters only to emotional people who are still alive.

Praise be to Allah.

Here's a thought:

Whether you are a victim of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Jim Jones you are still dead, so your 'thought' is irrelevant JDR.

As I pointed out prior the victims of KSM didn't volunteer to die, the victims of Jones, with exception of children too young to understand, did.

Dan,

I suggest you go back and read your own posts. Anyone can say a lot without saying the precise words. It's call allusion and implication. IMHO, you preface your comments (links), then proceed to disprove your preface. Just my opinion.

You are right, however, that I read your some of your posts with a bit of skepticism. Over the years, I have found you to be soooo close-minded on some subjects. I do admit this is not fair-minded of me as over the years I have also noticed a softening on other subjects. I will attempt to be more open in my reading.

I do take exception to your last post as I think JDR's "thought" is relevant. If you compare a deliberate action against someone you are suppose to care about, an action against those who trust you, an action in the name of Jesus with an action that is indiscriminate, it seems the worst act was done by a "Christian". For me it is rather like a father who molests his children. The thought of anyone molesting children is horrible but to have one's own family perpetrate the act seems worse.

In that context, attacks by strangers seem less evil. That is not to say the acts of some "Christians" are evil and the acts of some "Muslims" are not. Evil is evil no matter who is committing evil. It is only to say intent seems different when you know the perp; the difference being, being killed by someone who is trusted as opposed to being killed by a stranger. True you are dead either way. However, as a survivor, I can honestly say it hurts less to know a loved one was killed by a stranger than by someone I know.

My point is, based on the teachings of The Old Testament and our own track record, Christians have no room to be throwing stones. Again, imho.

I can honestly say it hurts less to die by poisoned grape drink than it does to be exploded or burned alive.

But it doesn't matter because murderers are murderers.

Jones and Khalid both used religion as a tool carry out their own sick agendas.

Carol Dunn said:

"Islam is a religion. I suggest that you study the Koran if you think not."

Carol, how much have you studied the koran? Do you know that it is meant to control everything you do? From how to wipe yourself to the propper way to beat your wife, it is in there. It is also in there to spread islam by terrorism and fear. How many years have we, as a country, tried to reason with muslims? How much of our treasure have we given them without seeing any meaningful results? The ones you see as moderates in islam are just being silent as they have the same goals as the "radicals". To be fair, Christians also spread their religeon, just not with a sword.

"To be fair, Christians also spread their religeon, just not with a sword."

That is, not anymore.

You have to remember Islam is a few hundred years years behind Christianity. I suggest that if you look at what Christians were doing 600 years ago, you'll find some similarities.

Yvonne,

"My point is, based on the teachings of The Old Testament and our own track record, Christians have no room to be throwing stones. Again, imho."

In Christianity we are taught that the New Testament supersedes the old. And only the words of Christ are truly relevant. In my posts I quote the Muslim Prophet directly. In no place have I seen the words of Christ advocate anything but love, compassion and charity. This stands in opposition to those in Islam.

We can say that some twist religion to their own use; we can agree that this is true of all religion. However, it is not possible to twist Christ's words to advocate violence; the seeds are not there. On the opposite end, it is unnecessary to twist the Quran to advocate violence; one need simply read it.

rahrah wrote

"I suggest that if you look at what Christians were doing 600 years ago, you'll find some similarities."
I agree, but one need not go so far; see Ireland a few years ago, though no one there pointed to the Bible as justification, only their religion and nation. So perhaps in 600 years Islam will amend its ways to include the possibility that others have a right to life and their own religion. Right now they attack every single civilization on the face of the earth in an attempt to kill or conquer; this is a stated objective of the religion and its leaders.

Please, let those who believe in the peacefulness of Islam take a Bible into Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Kyrgyzstan, Turkey, Tajikistan, Somalia, or any other "peaceful" Islamic country. Open your Bible in any public place and begin to read quietly to yourself. I suggest you wear an iron collar, though as you will surely be murdered by a peaceful Islamic mob or a peaceful Islamic government.

I won't debate with anyone here the merits or evilness of this or that killer who killed in the name of G-d. They all suck.

"look at what Christians were doing 600 years ago"

Have you people gone completely mad . . . this ain't 600 years ago . . .

. . . Every stoneage Muslim need to get on the "Whats happening today bus" and tell those radical towelheads to get with the non-violent-program . . . or accept their doom . . .

"Dan, I suggest you go back and read your own posts. Anyone can say a lot without saying the precise words. It's call allusion and implication. IMHO, you preface your comments (links), then proceed to disprove your preface."

I don't need to reread my posts, I know what I said.

You know I indicated most Muslims are peaceful yet you stated that I grouped ALL Muslims in a negative manner.

You know my post advocated nothing about American actions or even positions in the world yet you stated: "You post as if you think Americans are justified in whatever actions they take against another country..."

So all I get in response is allusion, implication and called close minded.

Please do try to be more open in your reading, thanks in advance.

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BTW I ate in a restaurant today and left a tip :)

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As for the comparison of terrorists and Jim Jones, I still don't find a relevance. Jone's followers, and I make the exception again for children too young to understand, went to Guyana VOLUNTARILY and followed this kook's religion VOLUNTARILY.

The pre-suicide was taped. From the tape (source Wiki):

The reason given by Jones to commit suicide was consistent with his previously stated conspiracy theories of intelligence organizations allegedly conspiring against the Temple, that men would "parachute in here on us," "shoot some of our innocent babies" and "they'll torture our children, they'll torture some of our people here, they'll torture our seniors."

Parroting Jones' prior statements that hostile forces would convert captured children to fascism, one temple member states "the ones that they take captured, they're gonna just let them grow up and be dummies." Given that reasoning, Jones and several members argued that the group should commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanide-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid.

909 people died including 276 children. That makes me shudder as I couldn't imagine making my kids drink poison at the behest of some religious nutcase. The other 633 voluntarily took their lives.

That is in stark contrast with terrorism, where victims of terrorists don't volunteer to die, see the difference? The terrorists sometimes do volunteer to die however.

It makes no difference whether these people loved Jones or he loved them. They are dead.

If some kook wants to kill him or herself in following a religion or religious leader then go for it. Just leave out innocent victims, especially children.

I submitted a thought. Others drew conclusions.

I once saw a documentary on Jonestown. As I recall, there's even an audio recording of him calling up the children to drink the koolaid ..

I think this is it:

http://www.amazon.com/Jonestown-Life-Death-Peoples-Temple/dp/B000MTFFUO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1225931860&sr=1-1

Dan - I am not arguing the difference you describe above ... but it's a bit like the Bomber Pilot pushing buttons (KSM) vs. David Hackworth who personally shot countless badguys and turned down the Joint Chief's path to become a hippy pacifist.

Here's a book I highly recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-Odyssey-American-Warrior/dp/0671695347/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225932537&sr=1-1

... skip the last 50 pages if the hippy pacifist part bothers you .. the first 450 pages are truely inspiring.

Kool-Aid or car bomb, either way you're dead. I'll put the book on my list.

STILL LOVING THE REALITY TOUR!!!!
Ouoted from a post above:
"look at what Christians were doing 600 years ago"

Have you people gone completely mad . . . this ain't 600 years ago . . .

. . . Every stoneage Muslim need to get on the "Whats happening today bus" and tell those radical towelheads to get with the non-violent-program . . . or accept their doom . . .

ENOUGH SAID! How some of you folks can argue with LOGIC and TRUTH is beyond my realm, and trust me, my realm goes way out there. YA BETTA GIT ON THE REALITY TOUR... and bring your camera!