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I can not think of even one little bitty way my life would be affected if gays got married. Of course, I am not a hostage of fear like most of the "religious right" (and I use the word religious lightly in this case."

"Of course, I am not a hostage of fear like most of the 'religious right' (and I use the word religious lightly in this case."

(yawn)

SOTLBS, DD.......

Not that anyone here can change your mind, you may want to read this: Romans 1:26-27.
It appears to see it somewhat different than you do.

Why are liberals all for tolerance and acceptance until a vote doesn't go their way? We live in a representative democracy and you lost, the people have spoke -- let's move on.

Milo

Milo,

The courts' decision to acknowledge all people are equal in the eyes of the law was fair and just. Everything gets screwed up when people bring religion into an issue and try to undermine a legal decision.
Religion should be separate and apart from legalities.

OK Yvonne, half of our country wouldnt give a hoot and the other half would have concern. In the half that does not care there are likely various maybe even several reasons why there is no concern, including those with a "live and let live" philosophy....

And actually even that notion can be a religion, if that is one's fundamental belief, as well as the notion that the only truth is that there is no truth can be one's religion.

I believe when you say you wouldnt be affected in any way if gays were to be married that you believe everyone should feel the way you do, that your "religion" is the right way and everyone else is incorrect in their belief...

liberal thinking is not necessarily tolerant warm and fuzzy thinking to the inclusion of all, in fact, your final words about the "religious right" indicate that there is no room for others who believe differently than you...its just a swipe at those who think differently than your prideful haughty pompous narcisstic philosophy/religion.

You are no less a hippocrit than those you call out to be just that...

OK Yvonne, half of our country wouldnt give a hoot and the other half would have concern. In the half that does not care there are likely various maybe even several reasons why there is no concern, including those with a "live and let live" philosophy....

And actually even that notion can be a religion, if that is one's fundamental belief, as well as the notion that the only truth is that there is no truth can be one's religion.

I believe when you say you wouldnt be affected in any way if gays were to be married that you believe everyone should feel the way you do, that your "religion" is the right way and everyone else is incorrect in their belief...

liberal thinking is not necessarily tolerant warm and fuzzy thinking to the inclusion of all, in fact, your final words about the "religious right" indicate that there is no room for others who believe differently than you...its just a swipe at those who think differently than your prideful haughty pompous narcisstic philosophy/religion.

You are no less a hippocrit than those you call out to be just that...

Yvonne said "Religion should be separate and apart from legalities."

Exactly right.

Whirlie said "...there is no room for others who believe differently than you.."

The principle of separation of church and state is exactly what creates room for all of us to believe differently than others. What we believe religiously is between each of us and our God. When we take what we believe religiously and try to use it as a tool to draw legal lines that elevate one group of people (even a majority) and debase another group, we are violating a core principle of democracy. Even the most tolerant of us cannot tolerate that.

miktay said:
" What we believe religiously is between each of us and our God."

In these days, a lot of us consider ourselves to be God.

I dont know call me old-fashioned I guess, because I am in the half of the population that would prefer we stick to a foundation of judeo-christian morality.

I dont believe the that the religion of secular fundamentalism is in our country's best interests.

We have pockets of what it can look like already as in San Fran and again call me old-fashioned, but I dont want to see marijuana stores in greensboro.

I dont want to see naked bicycle riding.

The governor of the state of washington allowed an atheist/secular fundamentalist group to post their beliefs in a sign next to the manger in the state capitol yesterday, and the sign does take a swipe at those who believe differently than them.

The state of washington therefore has acknowledged that atheism/secular fundamentalism is a religion and that its values and beliefs are as integral as any other religion and deserve a place in the state capitol.

We are a nation that will soon be founded on a belief that we should live and let live and that the former foundation is no longer valued nor does it function.

Many many people are already there as witnessed by Yvonne who believes "I can not think of even one little bitty way my life would be affected if gays got married".

It is happening quickly. So we will also know the truth quickly, whether the Bible is true or not, whether there was a Sodom or Gomorrah or not...that was their foundation, live and let live, and that we are God....

miktay said:
" What we believe religiously is between each of us and our God."

In these days, a lot of us consider ourselves to be God.

I dont know call me old-fashioned I guess, because I am in the half of the population that would prefer we stick to a foundation of judeo-christian morality.

I dont believe the that the religion of secular fundamentalism is in our country's best interests.

We have pockets of what it can look like already as in San Fran and again call me old-fashioned, but I dont want to see marijuana stores in greensboro.

I dont want to see naked bicycle riding.

The governor of the state of washington allowed an atheist/secular fundamentalist group to post their beliefs in a sign next to the manger in the state capitol yesterday, and the sign does take a swipe at those who believe differently than them.

The state of washington therefore has acknowledged that atheism/secular fundamentalism is a religion and that its values and beliefs are as integral as any other religion and deserve a place in the state capitol.

We are a nation that will soon be founded on a belief that we should live and let live and that the former foundation is no longer valued nor does it function.

Many many people are already there as witnessed by Yvonne who believes "I can not think of even one little bitty way my life would be affected if gays got married".

It is happening quickly. So we will also know the truth quickly, whether the Bible is true or not, whether there was a Sodom or Gomorrah or not...that was their foundation, live and let live, and that we are God....

GHSW,

I am not saying any religion or lack of religion is wrong. In fact, I am not addressing religion except in the context of mixing religion and law. If you want to be exclusive of an issue, do so on the grounds of legality, not religion. You yourself have already stated there can be no one consensus where religion is concerned. So all I am saying is to leave religion out of legal matters.

Religion clouds issues because it is based on emotion and personal beliefs. Take the "religious right". They want to control the laws of our land, based not on God and the teachings of God, but on their own private prejudices and hatred. Have you ever watched some of the documentaries about the religious right? They are frightening.

God or whatever super power you want to believe in does not pick and choose the people who "deserve" His favor. He created everyone equal. It is the human race that divys up others in a group and decides to discriminate.

I am quite sure I am hypocritical on occasion. But I think you have misunderstood what I have posted.

It seems simple to me. As long as the government is meddling in marriage, any two consenting adults should be allowed to marry and legally refer to it as such. The government can either get out of an issue where it doesn't belong (like they'll do that) or recognize every marriage.

If there was a vote today and 52% of people decided that you and others no longer had the right to own a BB gun, much less an Uzi, would it be right? Would you shut up and take it?

Agreed, rahrah and Yvonne. Personally I think all unions should be civil unions legally, and marriage should be up to churches. But that's not gonna happen, so legal marriage should be an option for all.

If you think gay marriage is wrong, here's a thought: DON'T HAVE ONE. Whether I choose to marry my girlfriend has got nothing to do with you. There's no reason why the entire country should have to live according to the beliefs of some.

Yvonne said:
GHSW,

"God or whatever super power you want to believe in does not pick and choose the people who "deserve" His favor. He created everyone equal. It is the human race that divys up others in a group and decides to discriminate."

I believe in the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Old Covenant and the God of the New Covenant.

I believe that yes, we are all His equal Creation, but some of us He calls His Children and some of us he says He does not know.

I believe those who obey His commands are those He calls His Children and those who are His Children therefore have a Father (Abba) in heaven who prepares a place for them.

Those He says He does not know, who are those who will not or refuse to obey His commands and choose instead to be their own God, will not know that place.

If that the religious right you speak of, those who obey His commands and call Him Abba? You speak of them as frightening yet the frightening thing in my opinion is to be on the wrong side.

Yvonne said:
GHSW,

"God or whatever super power you want to believe in does not pick and choose the people who "deserve" His favor. He created everyone equal. It is the human race that divys up others in a group and decides to discriminate."

I believe in the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Old Covenant and the God of the New Covenant.

I believe that yes, we are all His equal Creation, but some of us He calls His Children and some of us he says He does not know.

I believe those who obey His commands are those He calls His Children and those who are His Children therefore have a Father (Abba) in heaven who prepares a place for them.

Those He says He does not know, who are those who will not or refuse to obey His commands and choose instead to be their own God, will not know that place.

If that the religious right you speak of, those who obey His commands and call Him Abba? You speak of them as frightening yet the frightening thing in my opinion is to be on the wrong side.

Yvonne said:

"They want to control the laws of our land, based not on God and the teachings of God, but on their own private prejudices and hatred."

I mean really, couldnt you just as easily say those same words about the extreme left?

Show me one "Official" document that says anything about the seperation of church and state. Here is a little hint; there is none.
The phrase was taken from a letter from Thomas Jefferson. Since when do we as a nation take words from a personal letter and make it law. And in most cases the phrase is taken completely out of context in order to fit some liberal adgenda.

As a matter of FACT: George Washington said
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible".

Patrick Henry said "It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."

Sounds to me like law and religion mix pretty well.

Interesting that letters regarding race and homosexuality always get the most responses.

Amy said: "Personally I think all unions should be civil unions legally, and marriage should be up to churches."

I can agree with that. When I lived in France they would do a civil ceremony at the courthouse and then, if desired, a religious ceremony at a church.

The problem I foresee is that marriage will not be up to the church. There has already been a case in NJ in which a lesbian couple sued a Methodist church for not letting them have a civil ceremony performed on the church property. Of course discrimination was cited.

Now the church is suing the state of New Jersey.

http://wifeandmomoftwo.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/methodists-sue-new-jersey-over-attempt-to-force-gay-%E2%80%9Cmarriage%E2%80%9D-at-church-owned-camp/

Once civil unions are allowed, and I personally have no problem with them, churches who refuse to offer marriages to gays will be sued. It's certain.

test

GHSW, please do not put a right or wrong side to religion. There can not be a right or wrong to a personal belief. It is personal. Religion is not a yes or no, hot or cold, right or wrong, black or white thing. It is gray. It is a thousand shades of gray that the human eye can not distinguish between. Just because you believe something does not make it right, nor does it make it wrong. It simply makes it yours.

TypePad sucks!!

"...please do not put a right or wrong side to religion. There can not be a right or wrong to a personal belief."

Please explain that to the families of the 175 or so innocent people who were murdered over the weekend in India by Muslim extremists.

Personally I think those individuals responsible for this massacre were on the wrong side of religion.

Agreed however that Typepad sucks.

I believe Jesus puts a right or wrong side to what I believe, what you call my "religion".

If He says there is only one way to the Father then I believe He is saying there is a right side.

Jesus was always clear and concise in His words and explanations and even used parables to elaborate, so one reason I am drawn to Him is that His isnt a message that "is a thousand shades of gray that the human eye can not distinguish between."

You have stated very clearly your religion, that no one is right and no one is wrong- so understand that there is truth in your religion, and that one absolute truth, which is the foundation and which you have clearly stated of your religion, is that there is no truth.

So we are on two sides, yours that says there is no truth and mine that says there is. Can we both be right? Your religion says we can...mine says not...

we will know soon enough which side is the right side, so until then, i'm stickin with Jesus instead of with you...

you may have to be rescued from the fire!

"who were murdered over the weekend in India by Muslim extremists."

Even if I do owe neo 20 bucks, I think the attacks in Mumbai have a lot more to do with a group wanting territory returned to Pakistan than they do with Islam.

You’ve all convinced me. I’m going to the Senate with a mandate that all American’s convert to Southern Baptist.

What a simple would it would then become .. and imagine Bubba and Yvonne sitting side by side on the pew, mutually sharing the Love of God.

"... I think the attacks in Mumbai have a lot more to do with a group wanting territory returned to Pakistan than they do with Islam."

You'll probably lose that bet rahrah

We shall see as the story unfolds rahrah. Your theory could be correct in part, the Kashmir situation could definitely be in play. But it seems the perps were Muslim instead of Methodist.

My example was in response to rescuechick's idea that there is no right or wrong to religion. If you don't care for this example, I can provide many more of Muslim extremists on the wrong side of religion.

GHSW,

I believe you sincerely love Christ. However, like many you have cherry-picked the teachings of Jesus to fit your beliefs. You use religion to discriminate and judge. While you accuse me of not allowing others a different POV, you have set yourself up as judge and jury of those who differ with your POV. We are on the wrong side of religion according to you simply because we believe in equal treatment for all and that religion should be kept out of legal decisions.

You chose to take offense to my innocent remark about gay marriages not affecting my life. You also chose to be insulting. Is that behavior endorsed by Christ?

James,

You left GHSWhirlie1974 off the pew, the one with Bubba and myself. :-)

Since I just dont see it, you would have to get more detailed and specific as to what teachings I have 'cherry-picked' and then show me how I used that to 'fit my beliefs' and again as you say, I do that like so many others ... and who would that be? for example, maybe the Friends with Matt 5? arent you a Friend who bases your belief and your strong foundation for belief by cherrypicking just that one scripture?

I dont see how I "judged" and "juried" anyone...so you would have to get detailed on that also.

Well I took your remark about gay marriage not affecting you in the least itty bit to mean that if you can feel that way that certainly everyone else can too...i suppose even and especially those who are so far away from feeling that way that they frighten you because of some documentaries you have seen...(i have seen some documentaries about the extreme left that frighten me, fyi)...anyways, if that is not what you mean and you are just 'innocently' letting those here know that's 'how you roll' then well I apologize...we all are here to a certain extent to let everyone else know how we roll...i just sensed some superiority and some arrival to an elevated plane that you think others should aspire to...

Also I just cant see where i was 'insulting", so you would have to show me that too...i made no ad hominem attacks nor coarse language, nor anything that i can see as even remotely insulting...

so if you feel like you want to get specific on all that you accuse me of and try to point those things out to me in an effort to bolster your case, i will certainly take the time in return to respond to them and explain if anything was misconstrued by you, just as you are telling me that your remark was innocent and was misconstrued by me...

GHSW,

My only case is just what I posted. Why do you assume anything else? You are the one who decided I meant something I did not and did not post. After assuming you proceeded to rag me out for something you were doing yourself.

Go back and read your posts. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy, it will do me no good to point it out to you. From the first post to the last, you have had some kind of agenda. And it has nothing to do with the Christ I know. It has everything to do with judgment and condemnation of others based on YOUR assumptions.

"Behold what the scripture says man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay”.

GHSW,

My only case is just what I posted. Why do you assume anything else? You are the one who decided I meant something I did not and did not post. After assuming you proceeded to rag me out for something you were doing yourself.

Go back and read your posts. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy, it will do me no good to point it out to you. From the first post to the last, you have had some kind of agenda. And it has nothing to do with the Christ I know. It has everything to do with judgment and condemnation of others based on YOUR assumptions.

"Behold what the scripture says man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay” the Lord."

Yvonne said:
GHSW,

"Go back and read your posts. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy, it will do me no good to point it out to you. From the first post to the last, you have had some kind of agenda."

When you ragged me out last night of course I did read what i wrote which is why I asked you to give me some detail since I still wasnt seeing it and your decision is not to, making the judgement and assumption that it will do no good.

I assumed/predicted that you would not, and the reason is you can not...youre just angry and write in anger....that is your agenda, anger, anger that things just arent going youre way, anger that everyone else doesnt see things like you, like "the Christ you know"... a lot of those in the Quaker/Friends cult that I know are sadly in that rut...

Yvonne said:
GHSW,

"Go back and read your posts. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy, it will do me no good to point it out to you. From the first post to the last, you have had some kind of agenda."

When you ragged me out last night of course I did read what i wrote which is why I asked you to give me some detail since I still wasnt seeing it and your decision is not to, making the judgement and assumption that it will do no good.

I assumed/predicted that you would not, and the reason is you can not...youre just angry and write in anger....that is your agenda, anger, anger that things just arent going youre way, anger that everyone else doesnt see things like you, like "the Christ you know"... a lot of those in the Quaker/Friends cult that I know are sadly in that rut...

How long has it been since the Queen Bee was chiding everyone that wasn't happy with the election of the little messiah to 'get over it because the people had spoken'? Now that the people of Ca. 'have spoken' and it doesn't sit well with her agenda, it's time to turn to the corrupt courts to 'correct' the mistake the neanderthals of Ca. have made.

LOL

[....please check your reneging post, neo.]

neo,

Your post above is the reason I skip most of your posts. You have jumped, with both feet, into something you know nothing about and spouted off based on assumption (just like GHSW). Prop 8 is no skin off my nose either way. I simply stated it had no affect on my life cause that is the way it is. I don't know how much simpler I can make it so you and Whirlie can understand. I've tried plain english and neither one of you get it.

You are playing ignorant. As long as you have been around, you know I have ALWAYS spoken out about the separation of church and state. So I can only assume you are playing mind games or have a very selective memory (or are just full of it).

Whirlie,

I am sorry you feel I am angry because I am not. However, I am frustrated that you have chosen to use Christianity as a justification to attack those who differ in thought.

If prop 8 is no skin off your nose, why bother to inform the world that it will not make one little bitty bit of difference to you if two homosexuals want to get married, then lecture the rest of us from your high horse about how "the court's decision to acknowledge all people are equal in the eyes of the law was fair and just"?

If this is not advocating for the corrupt courts to 'correct' (in your eyes) an election gone awry and bypass the wishes of the majority in Ca., what is it?

The separation of church and state has nothing to do with it. It is the will of the majority in Ca. to not allow homosexuals to marry and this doesn't sit well with you countercultureists. (but I'll bet that 'Christ you know' would approve of zoophilia if it were put on a ballot and it failed because some conservatives supported it)

As for not reading my posts, gaining your audience is not very high on my list of priorities. You make wild, unsubstaniated accusations concerning conservative political figures, then when called on it you flippantly reply that you 'stand by your post' and either twist the words of the one who calls you on it or you simply accuse them of 'cherry picking' or parsing words to try and make you look ignorant.

Yessireee, a diamond in the rough, all right.
Bless your heart.

rahrah, I did.

Yvonne said:

"I am frustrated that you have chosen to use Christianity as a justification to attack those who differ in thought."

OK once again i have read and re-read and cannot see any attack on anyone by me.

Please kindly point it out to me Friend.