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Better that a billion ragheads rot in hell than to turn our once great country into The United Socialist States of Amerika.

Spoken like a .. hmm ... how about:

"You’re a Mean One, Mr. Gunch"

==

That said I TOTALLY disagree with the LTE.

The American People do not make sacrifices we’ve made behalf of the Iraqi people. A FEW Americans made sacrifices - many a severe inconvenience, some the ultimate sacrifice, but most Americans occasionally read about it in the paper .. that's all.

Smedley Butler. It is interesting to note that he was "at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history" .. an honor also held by David Hackworth - another General loved by his Men but ultimately despised by the same Military to whom both men dedicated their lives. Both men also saw first hand and wrote well about the fascist intervention of private interests and politics into the business of the Military.

Great letter. Thanks, Larry.

Gunch, hisssssssssss!

Gunch, hisssssssssss!

Gunch, hisssssssssss!

Molene Gunch-

"Better that a billion ragheads rot in hell than to turn our once great country into The United Socialist States of Amerika."

From what you're saying, if we kill them, they go to hell. If they kill us, they go to hell?

Becareful at night, Socialist man gonna get you.

So the Iraqi people were trying to get us to become socialist?

Here's one of the ragheads. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/11/xin_3621205120800703273607.jpg

Looks like he's not quite dead yet, but maybe you'll get lucky, gunch. Btw, do you hate everyong who's different than you, or is it just Muslims? Arabs? brown people? non-Americans?

As for the LTE, I think the facts are accurate but maybe not the conclusion. The Iraqi people do have many things to be thankful for: relatively free elections and no more Saddam being the two biggest. At the same time, these have to be weighed against the huge negatives the letter-writer mentions. For Americans, we would have to consider as well the enormous cost in terms of both money and lives - not surprisingly consistently over half of Americans have felt the Iraq War was not worth it (google iraq war worth it poll for data).

I'm sure the cons (beyond "raghead" troll gunch) will have many things to say to denigrate the letter-writer and her Bush-bash, but let's try to stick to facts (rather than hyperbole, character assassination, excessive sarcasm, straw men, etc.) on this one. See how the cons do in an actual discussion rather than a tomato fight...

What I meant was it's better for a few to die in Bushs' war than for an entire free country to be converted to Obama's socialist agenda.

Eric, many use this blog to sling hateful words and judgments. They do this because they are anonymous. Would love to see what they would write if they used their real names.

As to the "grateful" Iraqis, I got an email a while back telling how "grateful" blacks should be that they were brought to America. It takes all kinds I suppose.

My disappointment in Obama has been the war issues. We are still in Iraq, moving more to Afghanistan, and to what end?? Will it ever end?

Most who scream socialism don't even know what that is. Just a catch phrase it seems.

eric said
"I'm sure the cons (beyond "raghead" troll gunch) will have many things to say to denigrate the letter-writer and her Bush-bash, but let's try to stick to facts (rather than hyperbole, character assassination, excessive sarcasm, straw men, etc.) on this one. See how the cons do in an actual discussion rather than a tomato fight..."

AMEN! and apply this to all discussions. As I've said before such comments are not persuasive and only reflect back on the person making them.

I had lunch on Tuesday with a new client who had served in Iraq.

He said the US military found a lot of WMDs in Iraq, saw them himself, but it was not to be reported. Why? Because the US, UK, France, Soviet Union, Singapore and other countries provided Iraq those WMDs in the 1980's when they were at war with the Iranians.

The last thing these countries including the US wanted were media photos of WMDs found in Iraq with Made in USA, France, etc. on them.

By "billions" you meant "a few"? Odd choice of words.

How about "ragheads"? Is this easier to say than "Iraqis"?

Has Obama raised your taxes, or lowered them?

"My disappointment in Obama has been the war issues. We are still in Iraq, moving more to Afghanistan, and to what end?? Will it ever end?"

Yeah that's a bugaboo Carol, Obama's got the anti-war crowd including the Code Pinkers all ticked off. Perhaps they thought we'd be out of Iraq on 1/21/09 and he's....gulp....increasing troops in Afghanistan.

RMB, agreed as well.

Dan,

Guess that demonstrates how sincere we were about the initial reason for going to war there. To track down the WMD we gave them?

"Has Obama raised your taxes, or lowered them? "

Bought a pack of cigarettes this week?

I guess so eric. I supported this war based upon the information I knew at the time. Now I wish it hadn't happened, but the fact is it did happen and we have a responsibility to withdraw in a responsible manner. Now that the war is winding down we can eventually do that. Hey, I agree with Obama on that!!

Afghanistan will go on for decades likely, definitely past Obama's term or terms.

On another thread, I was debating with rbennet whether Obama is a Washington outsider. A stupid label, admittedly, but my point is that he has broken with Washington Dems on a number of issues already. War is probably the biggest.

I don't think he's ever changed what he said about Iraq - he said out by 2010, and he'll likely be able to stick to that.

As for Afghanistan, I'm generally a pacifist, but I had taught about the Taliban for several years before 9/11. This was a group that needed to be removed. The fact that they also protected / supported al Qaeda, and were therefore complicit in the death of 3000 Americans, made me pretty hawkish there. Again, Obama's right that we completely took our eye off the ball by going to Iraq. (Here's a question for anyone who disagrees: We sent 100,000+ troops into Iraq going after Saddam and 10,000+ troops into Afghanistan going after bin Laden - which one's still alive and at large, and which one is dead?)

Increasing troops in Afghanistan will likely cause it to look more like Iraq for a time, in terms of chaos, civilian casualties, etc.. But I think Obama really cares about our soldiers and their families, really has thought through what to do with these wars he inherited, and I trust him to lead to the best of his ability. Before the cons start blasting me for cheerleading, blah blah blah, I protested in Greensboro against Clinton repeatedly, both with respect to Iraq and to Afghanistan, which he used to wag the dog. I am not a Democrat, just a thoughtful American, who, again, wants what's best for this country. In the case of both of these wars, and given our current Commander in Chief, I think uniting behind the Pres. is the best thing to do.

Carol--

"Eric, many use this blog to sling hateful words and judgments. They do this because they are anonymous. Would love to see what they would write if they used their real names."

If people do post under their real names. Their won't be straight or "truthful" answers. It'll just be back and forth politics. Of course then we get into accountability. But let's not get into that subject.

Nope, Hugh, quit a few years ago and have saved a heck of a lot of money (not to mention my lungs) since.

If I did still smoke, though, I could buy about a carton with the extra take-home pay I had this paycheck. Since the vast majority of folks are neither smokers nor millionaires, nearly everyone in the country just saw their taxes cut. Do you think this extra purchasing power is likely to stimulate the economy slightly?

BTW, I don't think the cigarette tax was mostly Obama's deal, but rather from Congressional Dems. Ditto in NC. The goal of "sin taxes" like these is to avoid raising taxes on the general public while still generating much-"needed" revenue.

I use my real name, and I suspect Carol Dunn, dan, and hugh do as well. For Molene Gunch's sake, I hope he doesn't. :)

The Iraqis have a lot to be thankful for. If the commander in chief at the time had the guts to do so, we'd be scraping up the glass that used to be Iraq. Ditto Afghanistan. There wouldn't be enough left of the non-enemy non-combatants to fill an ashtray, much less Gitmo.

for Gunch: "Nature's first green is gold, Her hardest hue to hold. Her early leaf's a flower, But only so an hour; Then leaf subsides to leaf, So Eden sank to grief. So dawn goes down to day, Nothing gold can stay." __ Robert Frost

Eric You are amusing. You wrote that you taught about theTaliban before 9/11. I lived in Afghanistan before the Russian invasion and the slaughter of thousands, Russian bombing of orchards and way of life of a beautiful 5000 year old culture of goodness. I understand and speak Dari. Wahabi Islam is a new creature created in modern times to speak to billions. It is necessary for all to stop using "raghead". I have been been through sandstorms and the only rag I had was one long enough to share with children crossing a creek stopping to sip water briefly. The children and I traveled on foot to home safely.

hugh, in response to your noon post: I remind you that Obama proposed and passed last February one of the largest tax cuts in U.S. history -- $282 billion over two years -- without right-wing Republican support! Now, hugh, it's true that every single Republican member of Congress can now be accused of VOTING AGAINST THE BIGGEST TAX CUT IN HISTORY! And I'm sure you'll hear more about this near election time! (Stop smoking!)

for hugh (in response to your noon post): I remind you that President Obama proposed and passed last February one of the largest tax cuts in American history -- $282 billion over two years -- without right-wing Republican support! So now it's true that every single Republican member of the U.S. Congress can be accused of VOTING AGAINST THE BIGGEST TAX CUT IN HISTORY! I'm sure you'll hear this many times as election-time draws near! (Stop smoking!)

Molene Gunch,

I'm taking the risk of being barred from this tread, but if you look up the words "stupid, ignorant, racist, arrogant, bitch," your name would be at the top of every list.

Neocon,

The vast majority of Iraq's people are just regular old poor folks who had a terrible leader. Are you suggesting that we should have killed all or nearly all of them despite them having done nothing whatsoever to us? I guess you're not as much of a neocon as your name suggests, since even most neocons didn't propose killing innocent people for their strategic aims. That's just mean.

Eloise,

I apologize for even repeating the term "raghead" - I was mocking gunch, who is clearly a bigot. I find the term horribly offensive, not to mention inaccurate, since most bigots use it to refer to Muslim men, most of whom don't wear a turban, kaffiyeh, etc..

Thank you for sharing your experience in Afghanistan. It must have been quite a difficult place to live, especially since the Russian invasion, the mujahadeen, civil war, and the Taliban takeover.

Now I know why your wife banned you from the blog for awhile eric, many of your posts had to be mighty time consuming, is she out of town?

Nah, we're taking turns using the computer. I type and read pretty fast, but sometimes I've got to respond to two or three of you at a time, plus read your links!

I'll probably be banned again before long, but I'll make the most of it in the meantime. I was surprised to see you, neo, hugh, yvonne, carol, jdr and a few others who were still on from several years back. You guys are committed - especially admirable since none of you ever changes his/her views.

That's partly why I'm saying a lot. I really think it is important that you guys (meaning everyone on here, with a very few exceptions) acknowledge, inwardly if not outwardly, that you actually agree on a huge number of matters. Civility is important - even though it makes a blog less exciting, it's the right thing to do. I have some very conservative friends and family members, but we are able to discuss politics civily (sp?) because we respect one another and each other's viewpoints. That's missing on here, even after all these years. It's a tomato fight, which may be lots of fun but doesn't necessarily accomplish anything and (whether here or on talk radio or Fox News) doesn't make this country a better place.

Long answer to a short question, but that's my M.O., isn't it?

One thing that's odd is that none of the cons on here has disputed the letter-writer's first point. I just noticed that she's flagrantly off in saying that "150,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by US firepower" - this number is an accurate count of dead civilians, which is a tragedy, but most were not killed by the US. Are you guys getting tired? Where you at, neocon and hugh?

Oops, just noticed letter-writer's a he, not a she.

"Where you at, neocon ... "

Usually Neo only butts in when he wants to smirk.

==

" ... the Taliban ...was a group that needed to be removed."

Why - because you disagree with their totalitarian lifestyle? Perhaps Eloise will return to comment, but Afghanistan is a pretty Tribal Place - and therefore the Taliban "tolerated" outsider bin Laden more than "protected and supported" ... any help probably not meet and legal level of "aid and abet". Are we going to use military force to take-out every culture that beats women?

al Qaeda is a different animal.

The reason Iraq became such a nightmare - aside from a total lack of coordination between the military, the state department, and the admistration - and aside from the fact that the Iraqi people did not accept Chalabi and there was no plan beyond that - was simply the chaos and civilian casualties cause by this lack of planning, tribal cultures, lack of trust, too few troops, lack of jobs, lack of communication, lack of interpreters, longstanding and intractable religious intolerance .. hell that's a long list albeit partial.

One other interesting factoid: Iraq was a 100% cash society. There was not even a bank-transfer system .. and here we arrive with billions of dollars to distribute - billions of American Tax dollars to distribute courtesy of the conservative neocon movement but that's another story. This lack of a distribution system meant military helicopters flying around with pallets of cash.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Taxes/million.htm

Domination of the theatre. That's what I was talking about.

IF the US is going to war, then the US should go to WAR. Not create 'detainees', non-enemy-non-combatants, nor have our troops tiptoeing around IEDs.

Nor should they be expected to take the flower child's naive route and dig sewers for the enemy in the hopes he will like us and maybe, just maybe, not hurt us again.

Here again neo, the Iraqi people were not our enemy. They'd done nothing wrong.

We should treat others in war the way we would prefer to be treated in war. We should be very thankful that the Japanese and Germans weren't capable of firebombing, carpet bombing, and even nuking our cities like we did them. There's a strong argument that that's why France, UK, and other "sissy" European countries are now so anti-war - once you have a few cities firebombed and bodies all over the ground, you realize what war really is.

jdr,

The Taliban was doing a lot worse than beating their women. They conducted public executions in the soccer stadium. Among things that were illegal were listening to music, laughing, singing, dancing, flying kites, being non-Muslim, refusing to wear a beard (men), criticizing or questioning the government. They blew up a centuries-old statue of the Buddha. Women were not only beaten but were forced to wear a head-to-toe (even eyes and mouth) burqa, not allowed to go to school, wear makeup, leave the house without a male relative, drive, work, or speak to a non-related man. Many women had (ironically) resorted to prostitution and/or begging to avoid starvation, and opium poppies were (and are) the main economic resource. This was no run-of-the-mill terrible government. Agreed that al Qaeda / bin Laden was more tolerated than supported (and wouldn't have been there in the first place if we hadn't recruited them to fight the Soviets), but they were just the icing on the cake.

The war in Afghanistan is the only war or military intervention in my life that I've ever supported, and I hope it succeeds, though I think success will be very difficult to measure. I am reassured to know that our Commander in Chief feels roughly the same way about war as I do, and that he cares as deeply about both our troops' safety and "civilian casualties" (i.e. dead innocent people) as I do.

neocon--

"Nor should they be expected to take the flower child's naive route and dig sewers for the enemy in the hopes he will like us and maybe, just maybe, not hurt us again."

Pick one of the following in which you are most afraid of:

A.) Some random person coming in a your favorite restaurant where you are having a nice dinner with your family and start shooting everyone.
B.) Liberals, domestic and foreign
C.) Car bombings in your neighborhood
D.) Muslims

Know you didn't ask, but I'm not afraid of any of those things. The only thing that scares me is (1) the economy getting substantially worse, (2) my family or other loved ones being in an accident or contracting a disease, or (3) right-wing nutjobs re-emerging as they did during Clinton years to terrorize the US. What an awesome country that we live in that we have so little to fear!

Also, neocon appears to be suggesting that Iraq's people have hurt us in some way ("...maybe, just maybe, not hurt us again."). How, neocon?

Not really 'afraid' of any of those things, but the one that concerns me most at the moment is liberalism.

I don't think contemporary liberals have the backbone to wage war, should it come to that. I have little to no confidence in their ability to provide for the national security.

eric, all I'm saying is that once the decision has been made to go to war, (regardless of when, where, or why) the US military should use any and all means at it's disposal to win, and win swiftly. Not go in hoping to 'make friends'...that is up to the diplomats. The military should be used sparingly, but when it is used, it should be allowed to achieve it's objective. That being to win, and win decisively.

non-sense, I Googled the words "stupid, ignorant, racist, arrogant, bitch," and yours was one of the first names that appeared.

Funny how that works, huh?

Hey I.Q. "80," or zeus, I guess you don't get the news where you live but THE TAX CUT IS GONE! The Demo-Rats in the senate took it out without a wimper from the Comunity Organizer. He's too busy botching presidential protocol. The Chicago "hillbillies" visit London!

neocon,

Have you seen the news? I bet the people in NY are more afraid of my #3 right about now.

tonymo,

Did you just get a paycheck? Was it higher than usual? That's because Obama has already passed a tax cut, and it's already in effect. I think you might be a bit paranoid...

Hey Eric, that payment is from the stimulus package, not THE MIDDLE CLASS TAX CUTS he promised during his campaign! The TAX TABLES HAVE NOT CHANGED AND WILL NOT CHANGE. After 2010 t your increase will disappear. I'm not paranoid, I simply stay informed. You might want to try it!

He put the middle class tax cut into the stimulus package, as he explained on tv the other day. The two are not mutually exclusive. I just don't trust conservatives' predictions, since they so seldom come true. The tax withholding tables did change - that's how the tax cut occurred immediately.

Putting something in caps doesn't make it more convincing.

What is your choice of media outlet for staying informed, btw? Talk radio? World net daily? Townhall? Am I getting warmer?

“IF the US is going to war, then the US should go to WAR”.

Funny thing, Neo .. I think most of America agrees with you – that’s why many of us were upset when the emphasis went from Afghanistan to Iraq .. ha-ha lahdeda told you so - it’s a bitch being right ..

There is also a big difference between “Domination of the theatre” and “Glassing Iraq” – a tactic very few would agree is the right solution - and a tactic you have suggested multiple times. Maybe you did not mean that literally .. but you said it.

As for “digging sewers for the enemy” .. You need to define “enemy”. If the only exposure non-aligned peasants have with the USA is that one time some US soldiers came in and provided a very useful hand-operated water-pump for your community, you will then have a solid reason to reject some agitator that comes urging you to send your children on a suicide mission to kill Americans. On the other hand if your only exposure is a heavy boot on your face as your mother and daughter are punched out 24-TV-Show-style in a vain attempt to gather intelligence .. you will have a reason listen to that same agitator.

Call that Flower Childish if you want ... but you’ll be wrong in my ‘umble opinion.

“The Taliban was doing a lot worse than beating their women … … public executions …”

Public executions. Big deal - so do our best'est friends the Saudi’s. American Justice includes executing people too, just semi-privately. This is just a cultural difference as is everything else you listed. In no way do these cultural differences impact – directly or indirectly – the security of the United States.

“ … opium poppies were (and are) the main economic resource.” ... An interesting one – apparently the UK suggested the “Coalition of the Willing” (remember them?) encourage this because it would both regulate the industry and provide the typical Afghanistan a way of making a living .. instead American chose to make them the typical Afghanistan unemployed - paying the War Lords (tribal thing again) to keep the peace – and of course the War Lords are corrupt so some Afghanistan become Freedom Fighters .. opps sorry .. I meant become members of al Qaida.

“This was no run-of-the-mill terrible government.” ... whatever ... perhaps they were as dangerous as Castro .. but certainly they are no Jungawee (sp) – whom we ignored at the same time we were Hunting Saddam .. opps sorry .. I meant Hunting bin Laden

jdr,

Fundamentally disagree with you on the Taliban, and will until you do some research. The Saudis are rotten to the core, no question, and they have laws against women driving, public executions, and the like, but the Taliban was / is much worse. The janjaweed in Sudan is comparable if not worse, with the routine rapes and genocide. I'd support an increased military role in Sudan for the US, since the African Union is not being empowered to keep the refugees safe.

Probably shouldn't have brought up the poppies, since they're growing more now than they were then. Touchee.

Calling the systematic full-scale dehumanization of women a "cultural difference", and comparing the Taliban ministry of vice and virtue (who carried out their executions) to our justice system, betrays the intelligence I've seen you show on other posts.

I'm totally with you on the mujahadeen-al Qaeda connection and our involvement in it, Bush's dropping the ball on bin Laden in favor of Saddam, lack of action against totalitarian and/or evil regimes worldwide, and, I'd add, our support of then disdain for Saddam. None of this makes the Taliban less odious.

I think I'm generally informed on the Taliban, Eric. I certainly am well read on bin Laden and the Iraq debacle.

Re-read your post. You have not disagreed with me on a single item - for example, yes they have poppies - so what? It was (is) an opportunity missed. We tout "Free Choice" and "Free Markets" .. but only if we agree with what they are doing. It's BS. I have also justified "the Taliban ministry of vice and virtue ... " It is more brutal, but it is their system.

I would suggest you have not answered the core question: Do we really want to go to war against peoples that simply have a more brutal code of justice .. or treat women like dog-do? I sure would not want to live there, but I'm sorry, I do not yet see any threat to America.

I have also justified "the Taliban ministry of vice and virtue ... "

should read

I have also NOT justified "the Taliban ministry of vice and virtue ... " It is more brutal, but it is their system.

.. you done, Eric?