News-Record.com

"Everything our government is doing discourages them from choosing us."

Looks pretty good to me. If I were to fail badly enough, I'd stand to make billions.

"The proposed “card check” legislation will reduce productivity by making it easier for unions to take over workplaces."

Only if the Union get's its way. For example and as posted here-in over the past couple day's there are Auto Makers here in the USA that have no fear of a UAW invasion because they treat their workers fair.

Mr. Boyers, haven't you heard, the nation is in a deep recession! I suggest you mail copies of your letter to the White House and the Governor's Mansion and you're likely to receive a much clearer empathy response to your problem than you will hear from this site. The "House" and the "Mansion" will probably tell you very clearly why you just can't have things "your way, all the way" any longer! Have you been reading our local tabloid newspaper, "The Rhinocerous Times?" You "sound" like it!

Obama's actions do not make sense to some, but that is likely because they assume that O's top prioriy is economic recovery and the good of the country. From where I sit, it appears that his top priority is making as many as possible dependent upon government. It's not that much different than the Democrats' plans of the past 70 years, he just wants to quit piddling around and do it big all at once. If you view it through that lens, all of his actions make sense.

"All I wanted was Utopia. I didn't realize it would lead to our electile dysfunction". And Cialis won't help.

Sawdust, as usual, you speak "sawdust."

Brian,

"If we succeed, we will be punished."

No, if you fail, the market will punish you. If you succeed, you will make money, some of which you will have to pay to the government.

Have you ever stopped to think about all the government services you take for granted every day--roads, libraries, schools, national defense, and on and on and on? Somebody has to pay for all these things.

Do I approve of the way our governments provide all these services? Of course not. There is room for drastic improvement in most areas.

But the point remains. Every society has to provide services and infrastructure that allow members of that society to function and go about their business. Much of that is accomplished through government, paid for by taxes.

But for the grace of God, you could have been born in Burma or Mali or somewhere where services and infrastructure are rudimentary or non-existent. THAT would be punishment.

You are fortunate to be an American. I know you did not get to be successful by whining so stop complaining about being punished by taxes. They are simply the cost of being successful.

I don't think anyone is reading his letter.

Go out and start a business like his and then swallow his tax burden. If you earn a dollar and have to give 50 percent of it away . . . what is the incentive to have a business.

Here's a real working guy explaining the raw truths about doing hard business in American and a bunch of half-wits who could never run a business like his (well are you?) . . . crap on him in this blog.

. . . what is wrong with you . . .

"Every society has to provide services and infrastructure that allow members of that society to function and go about their business. Much of that is accomplished through government, paid for by taxes."

Wow, who woulda thunkit?

***********************************************

Seems like some are missing the point of this letter.

This guy is a president of a company that provides jobs, 250 of them. American jobs, which in the furniture industry are quite rare these days.

He and his partners were considering creating even more jobs here in America but it did not make economic sense due to excessive govt. burdens on businesses, so now those jobs will not be created. A lost opportunity for more people to work, earn money and spend it in their communities.

He didn't complain about paying taxes for infrastructure. I doubt he is a mulit-billionaire tycoon flying around in the now popularly vilified corporate jet. He's just a small business owner in a small community who wants to manufacture a product, employ people to do it, and make a profit. Yet some of you look upon him with disdain.

Yesterday the front page of the N&R featured an article about the soaring unemployment rates in the Triad, currently 11% in Guilford. And yesterday there was a letter from an A&T professor claiming unions, (read; more expenses for business owners) were the answer to restoring the middle class.

Today there is a letter from a man with 17 years of experience in running and growing a business that has actually created jobs.

Which person would you trust more to restore the economy and create jobs? I'll bank on the latter.

If the burdens get even worse Mr. Boyers and his partners will likely close or move their operations to a foreign country. Poof, there go 250 more American jobs.

JPeterman, clearly his incentive would be to earn fifty cents on every dollar he spends! Think man, think!

Come on Dan, do you really believe Brian would move his company to another country? Or close his company? Or are you just pretending to be "Poof the Magic Dragon" today?

"...do you really believe Brian would move his company to another country? Or close his company?"

Yep:

"Global competition has been tough on many industries, but it has struck the $22 billion domestic furniture industry especially hard in the last 10 years.

The industry is an example of many American manufacturers that have struggled with making cost-competitive products in the past decade. Many have closed U.S. operations and built plants overseas or hired firms to make the goods in foreign lands and ship them here."

http://www.furniturestoreblog.com/2007/03/21/overseas_competition_rattles_furniture_business_1.html

Increase their costs even more and bye bye March Furniture Manufacturing Inc.

High Point is gonna be in for a rough time over the next several years.

A very well written letter. What most "guvmint' apologist won't face are all the burdens placed on manufacturing in America. Not only taxes, rules upon rules, who can be hired, who can be fired, evro-overkill, the list is nearly endless. it is now facing a even bigger hurdle in DC.
Perhaps after the current idiots in "wonderland" finally drive our economy into the ground (which they are doing) maybe a fresh start from scratch will change some of the policies, but I doubt it.
Does anyone here really understand inflation?
You are being given a very painful lesson in it, but apparently you don't know it yet.

OK, Dan, here's my thoughtful opinion (for a change), (because maybe you can understand it): it occurs to me that a leader has to deal with a situation as it is, and I firmly believe that's what Obama seems to be doing. The President seems to be very much aware of the tension between interests (e.g. Mr. Boyers') and ideals without letting it paralyze policy-making. And the nation is damn fortunate to have him in the White House at this time. You seem to be a fairly intelligent person, so I suspect you may come to agree with me in the near future. Seriously.

Good morning, Ghost (with the most), your comments are so beautifully stated that I simply must compliment you! ........(ugh)

"...here's my thoughtful opinion (for a change)..."

A welcome change for the matter.

No one seems to have noticed this part of the letter:

"Misguided big-government economic policies during the Bush administration increased the burden on productive businesses and workers."

Mr. Boyers is equal opportunity in criticizing govt. in general, not a specific party or president. He understands that the more govt. puts obstacles in place the more difficult it will be for him to run a business, which btw provides jobs that everyone seems to be looking for these days.

But Dan, don't you at least suspect that lack of more effective "government obstacles" (controls) of past business practices may account for, in large measure, the economic crisis that exists today? I certainly think so!

In some cases yes zeus, such as Enron, Bernie Madoff, and other greedy profiteers in banking and investments. Include the govt. too, who tried to create more homeowners regardless of their ability to pay. Now govt. wants to give special tax breaks to first time home buyers, go figure.

I don't think this applies to Mr. Boyers as I assume he is an honest business owner who wants to run a business and make some money for himself and his employees. More govt. regulations will stifle his business as he duly noted in that they are not planning an expansion.

Thanks for the continued civility btw.

zoot40 all "guvmint obstacles" are not always productive. In fact seldom are!
You would be surprised to know how much your "guvmint' past and present are as much to blame ( if not more so) for this melt down than "greedy big business".
Perhaps, when you grow up and live in the real world awhile you may see some of this.

Ghost, you seem to be so knowledgeable! What do you do for a living? If you don't mind my asking.

white oak--

"You would be surprised to know how much your "guvmint' past and present are as much to blame ( if not more so) for this melt down than "greedy big business"."

Greedy government laying off people left to right, past and present. I did not know our government control so much businesses. Did they tax a whole of money on these businesses to lay off so many people?

Dan, do you know Mr. Boyers? I don't. But from what he states in his letter, it appears he has profitted fairly well over about two decades, under less and less and less government oversight. And, now, he complains. And the economy is in dire stress. And I believe I know why. Boyers' company operations over the years most likely help explain "why." Betcha! Just as all companies, big and small, that are in the tank today, explain "why." Do you understand? Of course not.

Interesting thread here, and a great LTE. My two cents (or four or five, as I'm prone to):

Obama and Bush both proposed cutting taxes on small business, and Obama has suggested helping them with the cost of insuring their employees, etc.. I'd bet Obama will do better than Bush did, but the letter-writer is definitely right about many points, and doesn't sound particularly partisan.

Good points above about taxes being necessary (miktay - nice to meet you, awesome! post) and the profit motive being what still encourages small businesses (zeus - you're on the ball today, too). On the other hand, though, Dan is absolutely right about manufacturing businesses moving overseas due to outpricing and competition, and jprt makes a good point that taxes on small businesses are way too high.

My father-in-law is self-employed (as is Dan, I believe), and really pays an enormous portion of his income in taxes, especially since he has to pay double FICA, etc.. He makes enough to where it's still well worth staying business, but he really could use some tax relief and some support from the government with respect to health insurance. If our country wants to encourage the American dream, small businesses, entrepreneurship, and self-employment, we really do need to implement the small business tax cuts that both Bush and Obama campaigned on. Like Dan said, this also relates directly to job creation here. I'm surprised that the mammoth stimulus package and new budget do not do more for small business, since I think Obama really does care about people like Brian Boyers.

ghost,

Is there a reason you say "your" government as opposed to "our" government? Just curious.

"Upon evaluation, my partners and I put expansion on hold. We’re just one small business.
Thousands face these decisions every day."

hmmmmmmmm. We're in a world wide recession and the furniture industry has been contracting for years and Mr. Boyers wishes us to believe that his partners & he have put expansion off because Mr. Obama won't drill in Alaska (among other vague reasons, no other specifics were offered except I suppose the 3% rise in tax rates on upper incomes).

Can't say much for your methodology sir. Good luck staying in business. It sounds like you're going to need it.

Dan,

I disagree with you on the $8000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers. I do not believe this is comparable to the fair housing stuff with Fannie and Freddie that started this mess. Potential buyers will still have to prove creditworthiness, and it will be up to banks and underwriters (who screwed up royally for the past decade) to loan or not to. The tax credit is motivation for people to consider home ownership over renting. It could also help someone who is already in the market be more likely to purchase a larger house or be more secure in the decision to buy a house at all. This in turn encourages more home purchases, as people upgrade. The problem in housing is that no one's buying - this type of credit is literally exactly the type of "stimulus" the market needs. I wish it would extend to all homebuyers, but that would be far more expensive.

Also, this tax credit is likely to go to exactly the people who get short-changed so often by federal spending - the lower middle class. The very poor get plenty from the system, and the very rich are great at gaming it. We in the middle are who tends to pay in but get little out.

Full disclosure: My house just went on the market and is a great starter home. It is far more likely to sell at or near our asking price if a first-time homebuyer purchases it, since they'll get an $8000 bonus for doing so. We are looking to purchase my mother-in-law's (much larger) house, and need our house to sell near the asking price to make the 20% down payment.

"...it appears he has profitted fairly well over about two decades, under less and less and less government oversight."

I don't know Mr. Boyers but I have worked with many furniture (and textile) companies since my career began in the mid 80's. They used to rule the roost in these parts and now most of them are gone. Frankly I'm amazed that Mr. Boyers was able to grow this type of business over the last 17 years, definitely bucking the trend of the industry. I have no idea what his profit is, but again I would venture that he doesn't fly in a corporate jet each weekend to his chalet in CO or his FL beach mansion.

He is complaining now because he sees what is happening and will happen to his bottom line due to more onerous govt. regulations and policies.

He also brings up international companies looking at operations overseas and is correct again. We are at competition with the rest of the world for jobs.

I trust Mr. Boyers to know more about his business and how to grow a company and create jobs more than you, the A&T professor or the govt.

Good post eric & yes I am self-employed. I looked at hiring someone to help me but once I looked into the regulatory costs I decided to stay it alone.

Rufus,

Good point about drill-baby-drill. He's also wrong when he says Obama "declared his intention to raise income... taxes". In fact he not only pledged to lower them but already has.

I do remember that the stimulus bill had incentives for hiring new workers, and after a little research found this from the Small Business Administration showing other benefits for small businesses from the recent Stimulus package http://weblog.sba.gov/blog-advo/?p=188. Based on my reading of the third bullet, the new policies actually encourage Mr. Boyers's proposed expansion, especially if he intended to finance it using SBA funds. Maybe he should spend more time reading the bills and laws which affect him and less time watching Fox News.

Just found an even more informative, though difficult to read, page about small business tax cuts in the stimulus bill. http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/Web/SmallBusinessTaxBreaksinStimulusBill.htm

very nonpartisan site

Here's an informative unbiased site on individual tax breaks in the stimulus bill, but again, it's difficult to read.

Dan,

My wife has been stifled from expansion by regulations as well. She babysits right now, and would love to expand to a home daycare were it not for the ridiculous hoops she/we'd have to jump through. Then again, some regulations are obviously necessary for safe, quality care. No question, though, that they've reached the point of excess. Don't think we can really blame either party for this - the problem is that they never get rid of any regulations, they always add more.

"Maybe he should spend more time reading the bills and laws which affect him and less time watching Fox News."

Being a bit assumptive eric?

Anyone who has grown a company from 20 to 250 people likely knows about the "bills and laws which affect him" more than a public schoolteacher. Nothing offensive intended, just my true belief.

I do agree with you and Rufus regarding the drilling in Alaska, don't really know how that significantly affects him as he doesn't run a trucking co. or airline. Oil shale isn't of much promise, costs too much to extract and process. That according to my brother who has a PhD in geochemistry and works for a major oil company.

"...the problem is that they never get rid of any regulations, they always add more."

You are right on the money there my friend. I would also add govt. entitlement programs to that list, once we get them they never go away, in fact they just get bigger.

I wish Mr. Boyers would join the thread.

eric, what is your school principal's name?

Dan, it's obvious to me that I don't understand what you understand, so let's just agree to disagree. Unless we can talk on some topic we can agree about. Do you plant corn?

zeus,

This is his student teacher. i can definitely vouch for the fact that he is a busy man with numerous responsibilities. your tax dollars are being put to good use... i promise :) (This is our planning time of the day, FYI)

Will someone please tell zeus80 that is no longer to put his I.Q. next to his name. we figured that after the first handful of posts.

Zeus is the poster boy for the O'Bummer voter as "outed" by the post election Zogby poll which showed the incredible ignroance of the O'Bummer voters. Only half of these fools knew that the Demo-Rats contrrol the congress.They had a 50/50 chance of getting the correct answer! A much smaller percentage knew who Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi are (zeus, they are Majority Leader, and House Speaker!).

Who but someone with an admitted I.Q. of 80 would denigrate people who started, and run a company employing 250 people. I wonder how many people zeus employs! He's likely still sitting around waiting for O'Bummer to put gas in his tank, pay his mortgage, force his employer to increase his benefits, or make his unemployment check equal to his previous paycheck!

Zeus is obviously among the 95% that were going to get a tax cut. How'd that one work for you "80!"

Wow, tonymo, you're a champ at playing with words! Demo-rats and O'Bummer? You must be really proud of yourself!

Speaking of IQ, you are aware that 95% is virtually everyone, right? In other words, you. Got a tax cut from O'Bummer and the Demo-Rats. I can see why you're upset.

The problem with the letter-writer is that his conclusion is wrong, at least based on what the SBA says. Dan, it's not my opinion that he's not aware of the laws and bills - I was saying that based on his conclusion that, "New rules discourage business growth". Meanwhile, the SBA and the Journal of Accountancy, which probably know more than you, me, or him about what stimulates small business growth, say there are "Small Business Tax Breaks in the Stimulus Package" and "Stimulus Package Includes Incentives For Small Business". (Here are those links again. It's not me saying it - I just did a little research.)

http://weblog.sba.gov/blog-advo/?p=188

http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/Web/SmallBusinessTaxBreaksinStimulusBill.htm

I applaud Mr. Boyers for employing 250 people, and am sure he knows a lot more about running a business than I do. The reason I guessed he watched Fox News was that his laundry list of complaints (which you acknowledged have little to do with expanding his business) sounds a lot like their reporting. I watch Fox News a fair amount of the time, too, despite its bias, just like I listen to Mark Levin, Hannity, Rush, Mike Savage, and Bill-O. That way I know what they're saying.

Obviously I do not know where Mr. Boyers gets his news, other than to know that it's not from the SBA or the Journal of Accountancy, so I apologize for saying he watches Fox News.

Visit cnn.com right now for the breaking news. I wonder which talk show host these shooters listen to...

Woweeee, yip yip ya yay I got a tax cut!!

"The Democrats' stimulus plan would give a $400 tax cut to individuals and an $800 cut to couples. That boils down to an extra $13 a week for most workers starting in June, and would fall to about $8 extra per week next January."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/16/lawmakers-worry-obama-tax-cut/

rahrah was thrilled as he can now afford an extra case of cheap beer each week.

Ooops, looks like rahrah will have to cut his beer consumption after all.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gSu1RI33g5jZfU8YAz7ZFmoPbb7AD974LIO00

Didn't matter anyway, our esteemed governor is raising the tax on alcohol so it wouldn't make any difference.

*********************************************

"The reason I guessed he watched Fox News was that his laundry list of complaints (which you acknowledged have little to do with expanding his business) sounds a lot like their reporting."

na na na, don't put words in my mouth. I noted specifically his mention of drilling in Alaska and oil shale. I agree entirely with the rest of his list.

Well, hello again, tonymo, the man from kokomo! Are you wearing your Mickey Mouse ears today? You right-wing, yellow-livered, gobbledygooker you! Sing accappela for us the famous lyrics, "M-i-c-k-e-y M-o-u-s-e! Mickey Mouse! Mickey Mouse! Forever I will hold our banner high, high, high! Come along, sing our song, and join our (nutty, right-wing) family! M-i-c-k-e-y M-o-u-s-e!" Are posting from your usual "Dizzy World" today? Good to hear from you, Looney one!

Dan,

Do you agree with the SBA and Journal of Accountancy?

The issue on taxes is that cons on here keep saying that Obama raised / will raise taxes. I don't care if they only went down by $1, they went down. That is to say they went down from previous (i.e. Bush - the great tax-cutter) rates. You can complain that it's not enough, and I'm with you there, but the fact is he didn't raise taxes, and he's done nothing to suggest that he will. This is not because the Dems haven't been busy - they've passed tons of legislation totally about a trillion dollars recently, yet they still haven't raised our taxes, they've lowered them (albeit only a tad). If the cons on here don't want their $13 each per month, I'll take it.

Dan, I simply must say to you, I believe you would be a much better business man if you spent a little less time posting on this site. Comprende?

Has anyone seen what's happened in NY today? I know it's not directly related to this thread, but I'm interested in people's thoughts on whether you suspect this shooting stemmed from anti-immigrant sentiment in the alternative media (talk radio, townhall.com, etc.). Obviously too early to tell, but that'd be my guess. Tragic!

"I don't care if they only went down by $1, they went down."

For now. They will have to go up to finance all the trillions in stimulus, budget and now the worldwide stimulus plan announced this week. It's inevitable.

************************************************
"Dan, I believe you would be a much better business man if you spent a little less time posting on this site."

How much money have you made today zeus? I just got a sale this morning in which I made $550 in profit. Then sold two days of consulting to boot, but I won't disclose that figure. Maybe I'll take the afternoon off and play cornhole with my son.

Dan,

I'll give you that future debt will have to be paid for somehow, and I am very concerned about the level of deficit spending that's developed since 2000 or so (and admittedly increased greatly recently).

Have you been to cnn.com yet? I'd really like to get your take on it.

But you don't understand, eric! I want to stamp out corruption and waste in our local public schools! And I want to talk to your principal to determine if he is part of the problem, that he knowingly approves of posting on this site when you should be doing school business. So please comply with my gentle request. What is your principal's name? Or do believe he is "too busy" to talk to an interested tax-paying citizen. (Apparently, you haven't read my final comments to you, posted early (1:00 AM or so) this morning.

Dan,

Please don't cornhole your son...

I'm aware of the shooting eric but it's too early to draw conclusions, especially ideas like someone shot up an immigration center after listening to talk radio. At this point I'll just pray for the victims and their families and let the experts do their jobs.

But it's so much fun Molene!!

http://www.cornhole.com/

zeus,

I read and ignored your late night post. Just like Dan can work and post, I can too. I listed everything I did today on another thread, and I've been working hard since then as well. I spend a lot of time at the computer: communicating with parents, researching topics for class, conducting business as department head, designing activities. The blog is very slow-paced compared to my day. I'd tell you my principal's name, but then someone on here would google it, find out my school, and I'd be less anonymous. It's like giving my name, which I prefer not to do. My principal rightfully has complete confidence in me. When my student teacher is done next week, you won't see another school-day post from me - I'll be way too busy. Can you tell that you're striking a nerve?

Dan. I'm retired, and a wealthy Democrat! But believe me, I am pleased to know that you earned a $500 plus sale today. So what in the world do you sale, Britannica Encyclopedias, corn-moonshine, dope? Whatever. Also, I'm pleased to know that you pay attention to the needs of your young son, and this fact prompts me to ask: What important thing should a father do with a young son this month, with a few strings attached, of course? You tell me, or I'll tell you, if you request that I do so. Lastly, I suggest you become a Democrat, a live the good life.

You're right about jumping to conclusions - was just curious what your gut told you. Very sad regardless of the motivation / cause.

Yabba dabba doo! Time to head home!

eric, you know, my friend, I believe I served you well by "striking a nerve." Are you sure you read my post to you re "grad school? It's simply too long to repeat and I've forgotten most of what I said to you. And I want you to know, seriously, I find only a couple of major problems with you, you're not a Democrat! (And you and your principal are in cahoots!)

"I listed everything I did today on another thread, and I've been working hard since then as well. I spend a lot of time at the computer: communicating with parents, researching topics for class, yada, yada, yada.'

Tell me Eric, why do you think it is important to justify what you do in your job to a total stranger on a blog?

"Dan. I'm retired,..."

This from a mature retired person??? "You right-wing, yellow-livered, gobbledygooker you! Sing accappela for us the famous lyrics, "M-i-c-k-e-y M-o-u-s-e!...." If you are married I hope your spouse doesn't see this stuff.

"Lastly, I suggest you become a Democrat, a live the good life."

Don't hold your breath. I leaned left in college but one year of life in a socialist country cured me of that tout de suite.

Eric – 11:56 AM: “My father-in-law is self-employed (as is Dan, I believe), and really pays an enormous portion of his income in taxes, especially since he has to pay double FICA, etc..”

Baloney, Eric. the same comments are oft’ repeated: "Self-employed people pay 100% of our health insurance, 100% of our retirement savings, all of our FICA, and pay higher taxes." “We are the ONLY contributors to ALL of our benefits and taxes”.

And here is my reposted rebuttal. BTW – there are a bunch of self-employed in this blog. In addition to Dan, there is JC Burcham, verelse, Myself, and I’m sure others.

==

HIGHER TAXES … Bull
At any given salary level – the rate is identical. Suppose your taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) was exactly $100,000 in 2008 and your status was married filing separately; your tax would be calculated like this:
On the first $ 8,025 x .10 = $ 802.50 plus
The next $32,550 minus $ 8,025 x .15 = 3,678.75 plus
The next $65,725 minus $32,550 x .25 = 8,293.75 plus
The total $100,000 minus $65,725 x .28 = 9,597.00 plus
For a total Fed Tax due of $ 22,372

NOTE the key phrase: “after deductions and exemptions”. How about a deduction for driving to the supermarket? If on that same trip the business man drops a letter off at the Post Office, he gets to declare the entire round trip millage from driveway to grocery store - I mean the post office.

How about a deduction for going on a vacation? Just combine some business – I think the rule is 50% .. and declare the entire expense as a deduction.

I usually work at the same place – a 110 mile round trip every day. 110 mile x $0.55 / mile x 50 weeks x 5 days / week = $15,125 that comes off the top of my income – no taxes period – worth an extra 4,236 on my pocket (a couple extra bucks an hour).

On the first $ 8,025 x .10 = $ 802.50 plus
The next $32,550 minus $ 8,025 x .15 = 3,678.75 plus
The next $65,725 minus $32,550 x .25 = 8,293.75 plus
The total $100,000 minus $15,125 - $65,725 x .28 = 5,362 plus

For a total Fed Tax due of $ 18,136

These are but a FRACTION of the Deductions and Exemptions us “poor self employed” have to suffer as part of our “higher taxes and no health or retirement benefit program”.

FICA … Bull
While self-employed people pay BOTH sides of the FICA Taxes - 7.65% more than the worker bee ... but for the self-employed BOTH sides of that 7.65% .. or 15.3% .. total are tax deductible .. so in the above example the $100,000 is really a $115,300 “income” with the same Fed Tax due total of $ 22,372. The normal worker-bee has that $7,650 removed as a first dib from the same $100,000 “taxable income”. Yea the employer pays the other $7,650 .. and gets a tax deductable from the corporate top line ..
… unless one is upper crust enough for the Company to quietly pay ALL taxes above the announced salary. Happens all the time

HEALTH INSURANCE … Bull
Same deal - self-employed people pay BOTH sides of Medical costs but it comes off the top … … unless one is upper crust enough for the Company to quietly pay ALL medical costs – let’s include the entire family in that plan, thank you, including all the relatives you will be hiring. Happens all the time.

In this example:
Worker bee: $100,000 - $22,372 - $7,650 - $3,600.
Self Employed: $100,000 + $ 22,372 - $ 22,372 - + $7,650 - $7,650 + $3,600 - $3,600.

RETIREMENT BENEFITS
As a business owner you are not restricted to how much you can put away – tax free – except you must offer every employee the same deal which is easy if you are a one man shop.

==

PS: I agree with Rufus – and the 3% rise in tax rates on upper incomes is NOTHING compared with where we were for Decades. To whine about a 39% top tax when America was at it's greatest with 70% .. is ... whining! Want some cheese?

Does he use the name "zeus" because he thinks he's all-knowing like god? Most everyone else on the blog, left and right, has at least occasionally admitted a mistake or shown a little humility.

I believe Einstein said "The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits." We should all recognize none of us has perfect information and thus none of us has infallibility. Given that we are all imperfect, shouldn't it disturb us when a group of people, because they have been elected, decide they are smart enough to take over our individual decisions about health care, car purchases, light bulbs, education of children, running of businesses, ownership of private retirement accounts..........after all, getting elected doesn't make those people any more omniscient than the rest of us.

I love ya mamab but may I add laundry detergent to your list? I posted this in another thread but it's hilarious enough to post again. Here is what happens when politicians, liberal ones I might add in this case, decide they know better than the rest of us:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090328/ap_on_re_us/bootleg_detergent

my, my, Oh, my, James Rockefellow, I believe you done told the truth. Applause, applause, applause! Problems is too many of these independent, right-wing, nutty business owners don't make enough money to do all those manipulative tax-structured things! So they continuously moan and groan about high taxes! Yes they do! Great post, James!

And now mamaboiler is heard from. Good everning, kind lady (?), I'm pleased to hear from you. And I hasten to say, that I do not believe I am all-knowing, and I'm certainly not a god! And I know I make mistakes, daily! So I know I have impressed you the wrong way. Please forgive me. And have a nice evening.

zeus is a retired rich guy and the pope is Jewish. Not buyin either.

Dan, I simply must tell you what to do with your young son this month: teach how to fly a kite (w/strings attached, get it?) And I promise you, he will remember the event all the days of his life! It's true!

I understand your problem, Dan, and I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?

March is supposed to be kite flying month, not April, although I must admit today would have been a good day. I'm teaching my son how to fly an airplane, it's much more exciting and he understands DG, AP, CHT, EGT, VOR, IFR, VFR, FBO, FSS and Class A, B & C airspace. No strings attached.

"How much money have you made today zeus? I just got a sale this morning in which I made $550 in profit. Then sold two days of consulting to boot, but I won't disclose that figure. Maybe I'll take the afternoon off and play cornhole with my son."

Zeus said.
"Dan. I'm retired, and a wealthy Democrat! But believe me, I am pleased to know that you earned a $500 plus sale today. "

Zeus we usually don't ask personal questions on this board but while I'm here

Dan, that moonshine was watered down. I expected better for $550, but I'm looking forward to the two day course in constructing my own still. Then I'll be able to control the quality.

P.S. thanks for elaborating on cornhole!

By the way, mamaboilermaker, "I move like a butterfly, and sting like a bee."

I've only done homebrewing rufus, don't like the hard stuff.

and cornhole rocks, I got introduced to it last summer at the beach. Santa brought the kids(and me) a cornhole set last Christmas. Try it!!

The word "cornhole" sounds nasty to me.
Maybe I'm showing my age.

So does the word "corporation" sound nasty to your JDR. Rest assured, I don't think Big Cornhole exists yet, with the boards and bags being manufactured in Chinese gulags and sold in Wal-Mart for Everyday Low Prices.

cornhole.com is based in Ohio, perhaps this guy is doing better than the auto plants there. Stimulate the economy!! Try it!!

zeus,

I already got my Masters - just last year actually. Don't tell Dan, but you guys helped pay for it - I was part of a UNCG cohort group of GCS teachers that got a free ride. I am a better teacher because of it, so it was worth your investment. The reason I was so defensive about typing at work is cause I know it's shady. I won't do it anymore.

Three reasons I'm not a Democrat: (1) they'd take me for granted if I joined the party - now they have to woo me, (2) I'm too independent-minded to be a member of a party, and (3) some of the Dems in Congress are loony. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, though.

Dan,

I thought you said it was dish detergent. Hey, from your link, that looks like the type of dish detergent I use! Glad I don't live in Spokane, where it apparently doesn't work - gets my dishes squeaky clean!

I must confess that I really enjoy a good game of cornhole. When my cousin who was attending Ohio U. first mentioned it to me, I thought he was being dirty, but it's just a fun game with an unfortunate name. There's something similar called quoits. Ever played?

jdr,

Hadn't thought about all the tax deductions the self-employed can take. Your math was a little much for a Friday night, but wouldn't still be more to pay both ends of FICA and medical, even if they're tax deductible. I can deduct my mortgage interest, too, but that doesn't mean I don't have to pay it!

At 56 JDR you are still plenty young enough to play cornhole.

You are correct and I'm am 100% wrong eric, it is dish detergent. See there, I can admit when I'm wrong.

Never heard of quoits, but just found it on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoits

That game looks more like horseshoes.

Cornhole is a bit different. Those of you who think it's a nasty name are simply thinking nasty!!

Kinda like today at Lowes, my wife wanted a new hoe for the garden. There was another couple looking at the hoes and the husband said "honey I really need a hoe" with a snicker on his face.

Eric:

I deal every day with trade folk .. they typically get paid $12 to $30 / hour .. occassionally I hire engineers that get paid $40 / hour. I pay a mark-up for those same services - usually twice that rate (with great negotiation you can sometimes get it down to about 165% + trucks and tools). Add to that expenses like trucks and tools.

So a punk kid that does not know a wrench from a screwdriver costs me $24,000 / year, skilled tradesman $50,000 / year (both rates plus trucks and tools and not including overtime) -- up to $160,000 / year for a decent (but not great) engineer. Great engineers are $200,000 / year.

Look again at the math.

I can give you a good price on that still-construction, Rufus. Buddies and I built one once, but it's been long disassembled.

eric, you're talented. I can tell. And you have your Masters. And are you still in your 20's or 30's? If yes, then "go for it." You see, I also obtained my Masters while I was teaching in the public schools... and later on, my "fud" (Ph.D.). So don't "clinker" the possiblility of a brilliant career by partaking in silly, little "shady things" (like I've been doing on this site for the past few days.) But I'm retired and "financially fixed." So I can get away with it more easily than you can. Always, always act professional in everything, everything you do (until you retire, of course.) And, in your spare time, teach your students how to play checkers and chess! You'll find that many of the "dull kids" will respond to the games quite well. And who knows, you may discover a Fischer or Moiseyev. (I confess I organized chess and checker teams at my school.) Eric, I've taught nursey school (3's and 4's), kindergaten (5's), elementary school, junior high, and high school, community college, and at 3 universities, directed Masters theses and doctoral dissertations. Believe me, it's true. Born and reare d in Greensboro, NC. Born in 1929, lived during the Great Depression. Yes, I'm 80, "zeus80," signing off this site. You see, "I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep." And best of luck for continued success, eric. Bye- bye.

Eric - expounding on my 10:42 PM post .. Most Small business' are simply people that eliminate the middle man .. and take that 2x direct.

Before, they worked for The Man. The Man offered a quick and steady check at a rate comparable to what most doing that work were earning, with some benefits like offsetting a big portion of health insurance and some weeks with no work and all pay - which we call "vacation".

By going direct - one can double his pay in exchange for loosing those two weeks of paid vacation. One also picks up a bunch of perks, partially listed above. In addition to increasing your out of pocket expenses (healthcare and insurance), the big downside is you need to find and keep clients, so you must be personable, competant, and at least somewhat not-lazy, plus there is a small amount of un-compensated time for paperwork.

The 2x multiplier paid the salary of The Man and his paperwork shufflers and salespeople; by picking up that work yourself, you also gain their share of salary and all the perks.

This is effectively what Dan (in his top secret sales business) and I (a consulting engineer) have done. The biggest hurdle is simply getting started. After being laid off I simply called the same folks I had been working for, offered the same services at 15% below what they had been paying my previous employer - and because I had a few skills, was able to get contracts.

My rational is if they don't need you they don't need you and while contractors are the first to go, the days of holding on to employees for more than a nano-second are long gone. I've been a bit lucky ... and scared to death over this SERIOUS down turn - but so far, so good.

full blown borg liberals. lord, are they even american anymore? and zeus? you have far exceeded your allotted carbon allocation for your existence on this planet. please remove yourself immediately.

... vs. little bean, who comes across as a full blown blow hard.

Rah(2),

I may have to take you up on that still. I think Dan is trying to renig.

Lilbean,

I won't even try to point out the contradictions of a conservative (?) talking about carbon allocations or for that matter under whom has America suffered the most damage.

Gotta do some yardwork.

'Yes, I'm 80, "zeus80," signing off this site."

That's the best news I've heard this week :)

My dad is 80 also, but I don't ever remember him calling strangers clowns & idiots, well....except for Jimmy Carter.

Glad you are still doing well, JDR, I'm holding down the fort in the secret sales business for the moment.

Rufus, talk about yardwork. The garden is prepared for the season, tilled, new compost, weeded. The grass is cut too. Time to relax and settle into some hoops. Go Heels!!

zeus,

Doubt you'll get this post since it's a dead thread, but I actually do sponsor the chess club at my school. We had a tournament this morning, in fact, and my kids did quite well!