News-Record.com

i'm actually looking forward till the day when these leftists have to face down the islamic americans. they have it easy with the christians.
but when they call muslims and allah homophobic? or when they bitch about the call to prayer being blasted 5 times a day from the mosque?
all i can say is good luck.

lilbean, you are so very quick to label the writer as a "leftist". does this then make anyone who disagrees with his "prayer" a member of the right wing demagogues as you have clearly demonstrated yourself to be. all the writer was asking was for the right to live his life as the bible teaches us we should w/o unnecessary interference. i personally thought the meaning of the letter was excellent. oops, now i'm publicly acknowledging i'm a leftist also. i'm so very sorry that all you were able to absorb out of this letter was "homophobic". i would have to guess that you are. this must make life miserable for you and would account for your ridiculous response. why do you members of the "right" feel you have been chosen by God to pass sentence on anyone who does not agree with you?

william lyle, when i found that simply saying i was content to be an Episcopalian was not enough to rid myself of these unwanted visitors on saturday mornings, i then told them i was Jewish. It's now very entertaining to watch their progression down my road. they go from house to house cutting across yards, but when they get to my next door neighbor's house they then walk out to the road to get to the house on the other side of mine. if it works, it works. they must have marked my house so the next group knows to avoid it. i'm so glad i'm semi-anonymous on this post so they won't know the truth.

Keep your shorts closed in public William and no one will look down them, prayer or not.

In brutal commie regimes once the religious have been pacified the intellectuals and enlightened are purged.

William,

Do you stand in front of the mirror when you pray?

Excellent post Mr. Lyle.

May I add one more?

I "pray" that the afterlife gives you what you deserve, and gives Molene Gunch what he deserves.

Where did I go?

From Allen Johnson: You have been banned for consistently distasteful comments.

I “pray” that the religious will realize they can pray wherever and whenever they want, and don’t need government involvement to do so.
*The "religious" do realize they can pray in private wherever and whenever. We also believe in public prayer and communal prayer. Just like our founding fathers prayed as they were constructing the Constitution.

I “pray” the religious will stop looking down my shorts and asking me about my own private activities.
*see Dan's post 8:42 AM.

I “pray” that the religious will learn to be moral people out of common decency and love, not out of fear of eternal punishment.
*One who has "common decency and love" would also warn others of eternal punishment.

"I “pray” that the religious will realize that abstinence-only education doesn’t work and only contributes to more abortions."
*Can anyone tell me of any school system that ONLY teaches "abstinence-only"?

I “pray” that the religious will never have to be awakened on Saturday morning to hear a proselytizer from another religion – twice.
*Well I have to somewhat agree with the writer on this one. But that is not to say I am against people sharing their faith. There are just better ways of doing it.

I “pray” that the religious will love their neighbors, and not be jealous and envious of them.
*No disagreement here.

I “pray” that the religious will revel in the beauty of life and nature, and not obsess over death.
*I am not obsessed with "death", but as a Christian, I am concerned with where others will spend eternity.

God loves you but some restrictions apply -

@Beach:
Yep, you have every right to pray in public. Just not on government property with government sanction, so stop asking for it.

About 3/4 of the schools in Texas teach abstinence-only.. when they even have a sex-ed program. Funnily enough, Texas has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates.

@Left-wing
"I "pray" that the afterlife gives you what you deserve, and gives Molene Gunch what he deserves."

I can't tell who is going where

@lilbean
"i'm actually looking forward till the day when these leftists have to face down the islamic americans. they have it easy with the christians."

Fatwah envy much? We have faced down Islamic groups before in court. It just doesn't happen much because... they are a minority and have almost no political power to do anything?

Slaan said: Yep, you have every right to pray in public. Just not on government property with government sanction, so stop asking for it.

Would you like to show me where:
1. Praying on "government property" is not allowed.
2. Having a "government sanction" prayer is not allowed.
3. And please show me where my freedom of speech has been taken away so that I can't ask for public prayers on government property and government sanctioned prayers.

Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances."

And before you bring up "separation of Church and State" I would advise you to do a little research on where and how that phrase came about.

Slaan also said "About 3/4 of the schools in Texas teach abstinence-only. when they even have a sex-ed program. Funnily enough, Texas has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates"

That may or may not be true. I really don't know. That is why I asked for someone to show me.
I believe other forms of pregnancy prevention should be taught besides abstinence. The problem is: most sex education programs emphasize the other methods and not the abstinence. Which makes NO sense, because abstinence is still the ONLY sure fire method of preventing pregnancy. I also believe parents should have some say as to what their children are taught.

I "pray" that I will be able to practice my religion when and where I want, without being accosted by Christians for believing differently.

Fireresscuechick
I "pray" that I will be able to practice my Christianity when and where I want, without being accosted by those Non-Christians, that don't believe as I do.

[1. Praying on "government property" is not allowed.]

Praying anywhere is allowed and has been upheld by the courts many, many times.

[2. Having a "government sanction" prayer is not allowed.]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." An official, government led prayer is an establishment of religion.

[3. And please show me where my freedom of speech has been taken away so that I can't ask for public prayers on government property and government sanctioned prayers.]

You can most certainly pray on government property. The government cannot make it official prayer, or stop your prayer. That is the only limit. It has nothing to do with you, just the government.

And as to the question of abstinence only education:

SIECUS has a good state-by-state overview of sexual health standards here: http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.viewPage&pageId=487&parentID=478

Here is a good peer-reviewed essay on the effectiveness of abstinence-only. Unfortunately, you need a university/library membership to access it since it is on paid journal sites. The essay has been cited 90 times according to google scholar.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1054139X05004672

As someone who has been accosted for a whole plethora of my own beliefs, I can tell you I've found no Freedom from Accostment admendment out there.

Molene,

Some of your comments offended but some were down-right hilarious. I figured that last comment would get you the boot. Thin skin rules the day, I guess.

Slaan said
"Having a "government sanction" prayer is not allowed.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." An official, government led prayer is an establishment of religion."

This is were your interpretation is wrong.
Having a prayer at a government sanctioned event (or any event) for that matter does not constitute the "establishment of religion". No one is forcing anyone to pray, believe or join any church, when a prayer is prayed at such an event.

This says it better than I can.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/separation-of-church-and-state-2.htm
Separation of Church and State - Summary of Fact Vs. Deception
The current implied meaning of the "Separation of Church and State" metaphor and its use is just the opposite of what was intended and what historical facts justify. Our framers feared a state denominational church based upon European history. The constitutional restrictions were targeted at our government to prevent it from making a denominational religion the state church. We actually embraced the Christian Theism doctrinal religion as the state religion. Now we are rejecting any expression or symbol of our doctrinal religion, which our framers embraced. We are treating the doctrinal religion of our heritage like a virus that must be expunged from the public square. We also have inverted the original intent of the "Separation of Church and State" metaphor. The oppression that the Christian Theism religion is now undergoing through the ACLU and activist judges is the same evil that the establishment clause in our constitution was intended to prevent. Our current state religion of humanism is using the full power of the government to oppress the nonconformists to its doctrine, which is exactly the opposite doctrine of Christian Theism.

Freedom of religion does NOT mean Freedom FROM religion.

Everyone who is a citizen of the United States has the right to believe or not believe any religion they so choose. No has the right NOT to be ear shoot of a prayer at a school graduation or any government sponsored event for that matter. That does not constitute the "establishment" of a religion. Nor does having "One Nation Under God" in our pledge. Nor does having "In God we Trust" on our money.

I left out a word or two in one of the sentences.

revised;
No one has the right NOT to be in ear shoot (hearing distance) of a prayer at a school graduation or any government sponsored event for that matter.

Sorry.

"Freedom of religion does NOT mean Freedom FROM religion. "

Yes. Yes, it does. That is, in-fact, exactly what the Danbury Baptist's letter to Jefferson was all about!

The Danbury Baptists were being forced by their state constitution to be taxed for religious purposes. They wrote to Jefferson concerned that the Constitution did not explicitly give freedom from religion. They were asking if it was constitutional for the government to force the taxation for another religion's benefit. They wanted freedom from (another) religion(-ious denomination_. And that is what the got in the Separation of Church and State metaphor for the rationale behind the 1st amendment.

You cannot have freedom of religion w/o freedom from religion.

Beach, I don't care what you believe or how you choose to worship. All I ask is that I not have Christianity shoved down my throat everywhere I go. I am so tired of being told that I am going to burn in hell. "Though shalt not suffer a witch to live", or something to that effect.

I'm not going around trying to question every Christian's faith and trying to convert them to Wicca. Yet, Christians are constantly telling me that my beliefs are wrong and trying to make me question my faith. The first rule of Wicca is "An' ye harm none, do what thou wilt." We also believe that whatever we do will come back to us times 3.

It took several years for the United States military to recognize Wicca as a religion. A few years back, a family finally won that battle when they were ALLOWED to put a pentagram on their son's tombstone. So where was the freedom of religion for Wiccans before then? It was non-existant. Remember the Salem witch trials?

Beach:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/soldier_killed_in_iraq_denied_wiccan_symbol_on_memorial/

And other articles of Wiccan intolerance:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/burn_aw2.htm

http://www.witchvox.com/military/bobbarr2.html

If anyone has any ?'s about Wicca, believe it or not, this is actually a really good explanation :

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm

To the author of the letter: Amen!

I've never had a Christian 'shove their religion down my throat'.

I HAVE seen a few videos of Muslims shoving THEIR religion down people's throat after they removed the head to gain access to the gullet.

Robert, your priorities seem a bit skewed to me.

firerescuechick
You are certainly free to practice whatever religion you so choose. You have already proven that. But no one has ever said you or Christians would not be pursecuted for your beliefs. Christians have suffered pursecution for years and today it is the worst I have experienced in my life time.

Another note: just because you have choosen Wicca as your religion does not mean you will not be subjected to others expressing their religion.

I know some on this post will not agree with me, but there are plenty of facts to back it up, that this nation was founded by Christians and on Christian principles. No where did our founding father ever express that this nation would ever to be considered anything other than a Christian Nation. That does not mean you do not have the freedom to choose whatever religion you want. No one is holding a gun to anyones head or holding a knife to anyones throat forcing you to agree to choose Christianity as your religion.

Slaan said:
"Freedom of religion does NOT mean Freedom FROM religion. "
Yes. Yes, it does. That is, in-fact, exactly what the Danbury Baptist's letter to Jefferson was all about!

I'm sorry but you are just absolutely and totally 100% wrong. The same day Congress passed the First Amendment they approved a resolution requesting President George Washington to proclaim "...a day of public thanksgiving and prayer...."
Does that sound like they was suggesting a nation that is "free from religion"?

James Madison said "We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

Slaan
I have a question for you.
Let's say you are correct (and in NO WAY do I feel you are correct) in your assumption about the Danbury Letter and Jefferson's letter.
Since when does something that was written in a personal letter become law?

"Christians have suffered pursecution for years and today it is the worst I have experienced in my life time."

Huh? What am I missing? Christians get all their holidays off, December is practically a month-long homage to the religion, and every national elected official basically has to subscribe to Christianity. Schools have Christian prayers for graduations, and god gets mention in the pledge of allegiance. This is the worst persecution in decades?

"Since when does something that was written in a personal letter become law? "

Well, due to Marbury v Madison, the SCOTUS gets the final word on what is constitutional. And since the SCOTUS says that it is law, due to the fact that Jefferson was one of the most important founding fathers, it is law due to our judicial system.

I cannot find even one place where that quote of madison is seen. Do you have a link? Because that does not sound like Madison's writing at all. It was very likely cooked up by the [url=http://www.liarsforjesus.com/]Liars for Jesus[/url], as they have a highly documented history of doing so.

"free from religion"

Again, you have the entire principle completely wrong. The principle is that the government does not discriminate between different religious practices, which includes both not SETTING up a church (establishment clause, OF religion) and providing an open forum for religions to participate in the public square (from religion) without interference. However, now there is a non-religious segment of the population that is only exceeded by Catholics and Baptists in size. Any action must make sure to take into account the non-religious as well as the religious for discrimination purposes. You know how your free market fundamentalism supposedly is what makes the American economy great? It is the same thing here. Because different religions have an even playing field and don't have an unfair advantage (the Gov't), the various churches have a free market to convert people in. It helps religion, not hurt it. Europe has official state religions... and the state religions have tiny adherence rates. You are trying to get rid of your most important tool.

@Neo:
"I've never had a Christian 'shove their religion down my throat'"

Ever heard of Fred Phelps?

Fred Phelps (and his wife) are vile slimebags but I don't recall them beheading anyone.

Slaan

This web site says it better than I can.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=105

Some interesting points are:
"Madison's religious views and activities are numerous, as are his writings on religion. They are at times self-contradictory, and his statements about religion are such that opposing positions can each invoke Madison as its authority."

"The failure to rely on Founders other than Madison seems to imply that no other Founders were qualified to address First Amendment issues or that there exists no pertinent recorded statements from the other Founders. Both implications are wrong: numerous Founders played pivotal roles; and thousands of their writings do exist."

So my point is: whether you believe the quote by Madison (which I mentioned in an earlier post) or not there is plenty of other evidence to support the belief that the Founding Fathers did not intend for this nation to be a "Godless nation" or a "nation free from religion".

Dan, beachwalker, neocon, truth, yvonne are the kind of brainwashed idiots who would believe this crap.
Christians, Muslims, ect. are all the same.........too weak-minded to actually think for themselves. They all believe in some fantasy book that has not one word of truth.

Do any of you actually have a life? Or do you have nothing better to do but post here 60 times a day.

Love ya

jran said:
Do any of you actually have a life?

Yes, I do and it is eternal.
Thanks for asking.

Your statement calling people you don't know brainwashed idiots speaks volumes of yourself jran.

What ever happened to tolerance? Ohhhh.....that's right, you fit right in with Fred Phelps, very intolerant both of you. That's funny, you and Phelps have something in common and it aint' love ;--) Care to try a more effective post next time?

brenda,
weird how this forums leftists seem to stand in the anti-religious line huh?
slaan, did you mean islamic courts? heh heh!
just as well i guess, all of this was written about long ago. good story, great ending.

Fred Phelps is a harmless idiot. Abu Omar al Baghdadi is not a harmless idiot. He murders and used drugged women and children to do his his bidding. Why not direct your ire at a religion that practices such abominations instead of Christians?

jran, how much time do you spend counting posts?

jran,

Please find a single day where I've posted 60 times.

Surprising to see you lump Yvonne in with the rest of us who generally get lumped together.

Especially since Yvonne hasn't even commented on this thread.

@Neo:

Oh, we do spend time Islam, and Judaism to an even lesser extent. It is just that in America, where the current 'battle' is, is >70% Christian. Of course we spend most of our time debunking Christians, because that is who our enemy is. American Muslims are generally slightly more liberal, do to being in the minority and often refugees themselves, and do not have political power outside of their very local community. American Jews are almost entirely of the secular variety, and so are... us. The ones that aren't are still very liberal in the religious regard in that they know what happens when you let a bunch of Christians control a government.

Who are "we"?

Also, when you finally purge all the Christians from the government, who do you expect to fill the void...peace lovin' atheists and agnostics, or will some other fanatics who aren't content to walk around the neighborhood on Saturday morning knocking on doors and passing out "Are You Saved" literature? Will they be willing to forgive your 'sin' of eating a pork chop and not bowing toward mecca or will they flog you within an inch of your life in the public square?

Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it.

Thanks, truth. I guess I got lumped because I have made no bones about being Christian. At the same time, I have been very clear my religious beliefs are my own and have not ever demanded anyone else feel as I do. I am a firm believer religion or lack thereof is a very personal choice.

I have no issue with atheists, agnostics, Christians, Wiccans, Islamics or any other beliefs. One could worship rocks and I would not try to change their minds. How one lives their lives and treats others is more important to me than what/whom they worship.

I do, however, take issue with others, no matter what they believe, who try to impose their beliefs on my life.

BTW, what did Molene say to get booted this time? I missed yesterday's blogs altogether. You know they delete the comments that are reflective of the booting.