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Will Bill Clinton & Janet Reno be charged for the torture they inflected upon the Branch Davidians ?

Monica,

Good question. US citizens were murdered and nobody was jailed.

Mark,

What innocent person was tortured by the current or past administrations? It's not that I disagree with you. I think the bigger question that remains debated is "what constitutes torture?"

truth:

you sound like Bill Clinton: "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."

If you think waterboarding is not torture, do it to your neighbor and see how fast you are in prison. If you don't think torture is wrong, you are insane and should be locked away for the public safety. The supporters of torture are obviously just undiagnosed sociopaths (look up the definition, you will see it fits).

Advocates of torture are the Nazis of our generation: rationalizing what they do by what they want. What is the difference between an American torturer and a head-sawing jihadist? Answer: their rationale for doing the killing or torture they already want to do, nothing more. Both want to kill and do harm and both find a reason for doing so. Strange that the so-called "Christian values" right wing is so in love with torture and Jesus at the same time. Makes me want to find out what churches they attend and avoid them like I would a jihadi mosque.

The problem with the torture advocates is THEY want to be the ones to decide who is innocent or deserves torture and sooner or later it will be anyone that disagrees with them.

I say jail the torturers and institutionalize torture advocates. It's the only rational thing to do.

Reading the drivel of the left is torture to the right person. (bad pun, I know)

I've accidentally waterboarded myself in the shower. I survived. Not so sure I'd survive an accidental decapitation.

IMO, that's a lot bigger difference between an american "torturer" and a head-sawing jihadist than all that stuff about "rationale".

Although I see a big difference between water-boarding and sawing a man's head off (mainly the end result), I don't support waterboarding.

However, waterboarding is not the only interrogation technique that might be considered torture. How about bright lights, shouting, isolation?

The question still remains: what is torture? How is it defined and were acts committed that were defined as illegal when they were committed?

BTW, jail may be construed as a form of torture unless it has full cable access, fluffy pillows, and let's you come and go as you please.

You're suggesting torturing the torturers?

I guess I need to call the authorities on my older sister for trying to baptize/drown me years ago. Seriously V, you believe getting waterboarded with doctors present equates to getting ones head sawn off? Where does partial-birth abortion land on your list of atrocities? Granted a doctor is present for the abortion, but the baby is just as dead as the person who's head was cut off. I bet the baby would choose waterboarding instead of having scissors punched into their skulls. I know of no baby who had first hand knowledge of the murders of 2,983 innocent Americans. I know of no baby who publicly declared they wanted as many Americans killed as possible. Do not preach hypocrisy to me.

I'm excited to see V respond.

"The One II":
I never equated the two (waterboarding and head sawing) -- only the fallacy of the rationales that lead to each. Of course, I would rather be waterboarded than to have my neck sawed. But that is moral equivalency and saying one is better than the other is not even a step towards justification.

And since I must once again state my position on any type of abortion, let me do so quickly: I consider it murder. Once again, however, it is moral equivalency. While we can bring every injustice to light as an argument of what is worse than waterboarding, I will just say to each "How does this justify the sick desire for torture?"

I do not preach hypocrisy, I merely point a finger when I see it. If you see it in me, call me on it. Of course I will just tell you that "I contain multitudes" and that you should get a life, because on the issues that matter, I have the same opinion each time.

Bring up any other issues that suit you, I am sure they are each legitimate issues. But no issue other than the one at hand is relevant to this debate.

The next argument on the right is usually some feeble attempt at justification of torture, abandoning all pretext that waterboarding is not torture. They will point to secret documents that we never will see that prove torture has been effective and has saved millions of lives or even life on earth, while the very people (CIA Inspector General) who are the ones who've seen the documents and conducted the interviews issue conclusive statements that no such benefit has ever been realized from torture and no valuable information has ever been gained that could not and was not obtained without it.

Yes, I know I am a left/right wingnut gun-loving librul socialist commie capitalist militaristic bastard patriotic fool, (pick whatever label suits you, I've been called them all in this forum), but that still does not change the facts about torture.

So in your mind V, the trained individuals who performed the waterboarding were just sick people getting some kicks. Is this really your premise? I guess it comes down to intent doesn't it? You are giving no one the benefit of the doubt, no consideration given to the intent of the waterboarding, they are just all criminals in your mind. Do you really believe Bush allowed waterboarding just because he wanted to? So he tells the CIA to "go get some terrorists to torture, hell we don't have anything else to do today". " Let's not waste a nuke on 'em thats too easy, no lets pick three out and waterboard 'em". "I know lets carpet bomb Pakistan and Afghanistan with napalm so we can really inflict some pain". Give me a break.

The One II,

Volunteer for waterboarding by your enemy, then get back to us about it's use (if it doesn't kill you).

"The One II " : It's a nice conversation you are having with yourself. You set up straw men, then knock them down. It probably feels good but does not address my arguments.
I will restate my arguments and wait for your resposnse:

1) Waterboarding is torture.

2) There are no legitimate grounds for torture. "Other people do it" is not a valid grounds for torture. To quote Reagan on signing the UN convention against torture:

"By giving its advice and consent to ratification of this Convention, the Senate of the United States will demonstrate unequivocally our desire to bring an end to the abhorrent practice of torture."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_n2137_v88/ai_6742034/

3) Advocating torture is an act of a sociopath.

Definition of "Antisocial Personality Disorder", the DSM name for Sociopathy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Note that advocating torture meets definitions 1,2,5,6, and especially 7.

4) Sociopaths tend to find ways to express their pathology; in this case, they rationalize their sociopathic desire to harm others as "necessary for the common good", setting themselves up as arbiters of what defines "the common good" -- anyone can see the danger in that, history has shown us this danger repeatedly.

5)The advocates of torture are well known and none of them are in the CIA--they are exclusively Bush administration appointees with the exception of Cheney, obviously.

6) "Just following orders" is no excuse (see http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm ). Military and civilian personnel are subject to law and law alone. No order from the President can override law in time of war or otherwise. This fact has been upheld in every single case in all courts martial or civilian. Any five year old knows torture is wrong and adults know it is a crime. One commits such acts as a willful violation of the law. Advocation, dissimulation, and organization in attempts to violate the law is called "Conspiracy". Cheney, et al. should be prosecuted for conspiracy. Low level operatives who conducted the torture should be cashiered.

I hope I have laid it out clearly for you. You can continue to create your own arguments and refute them or you can address mine. Either way, I believe mine points will stand.