News-Record.com

Funny choice of wording, I've never seen this board "tackle" anything.

Great article in today's Rhino about the School Board's achievement gap committee meeting on Tuesday. Here's an interesting quote from the article about our superintendent:

"Terry Grier said that assigning a teacher to a school where that teacher didn't want to go doesn't work"

Hey Terry, it DOESN'T WORK FOR STUDENTS EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dr. Grier did not lay that in your lap did he?

He had to of seen that three high schools away!

okay - what is this item under school board compensation??? What happened to community service?

What about these Substitute Teacher raises they have been promising for years? I do know lots of people that actually need this money for a job and not as hobby/paid volunteer job.

Shouldn't subs at least be paid what an assistant is paid for doing the same job?

Time to redo that agenda School Board people.

Barbara Ann,

That's a good point, does the Board get paid for being a member? Is this a paying job? Perhaps Jennifer can enlighten us regarding this. By law, what compensation accrues to board members? Can the board vote itself compensation or changes in compensation?

Also, what is this Board Evaluation? Does this mean that the Board performs its own self-evaluation? If that's the only evaluaton that they receive, that's sweet. I wish in my job, I could evaluate myself. Unfortunately, my manager insists upon handling that himself. Why don't we have an evaluation process whereby the citizens of the county provide an evaluation to the Board? After all, that's who put them in their jobs and who pays them.

tim,

Let me get this straight. Terry Grier says that it doesn't work to assign teachers to schools where they don't want to work? I was of the understanding that teachers were employees of the school district, and Terry Grier was in charge. Everywhere I have ever worked, the "boss" always could specify an employee's work location. Now, the employee might not like that work location and had the right to terminate their employment, but it was very clear that the boss could make that determination. What's the problem in GCS? Doesn't Terry Grier have any authority anymore?

Teddy,

As stated in the Rhino, Grier fears that by assigning teachers to a school, he risks losing them to neighboring counties.
He's actually trying to keep teachers where they want to be...

Curious to me???? Why would teachers have a building preference? Is it close to their home? Do they just like the layout of the building? Are they fond of the type of brick and mortar used? Have they bonded with their trailer and just can't part with it?...

My point you wonder? Well, the REASON is irrelevant. WHY teachers choose their workplace is their business. The fact that they have a CHOICE is my point.

Our students deserve the same respect. Just as Grier obviously wouldn't hold a lottery for teacher positions, he shouldn't hold a lottery for student positions.

Why does he see our students as second-class citizens? ---Because he's a selfish, self-centered, arrogant man with not a drop of dignity. That's probably why his wife just left him.

Teddy,

It's not a problem with GCS losing control. It's all about the marketplace - supply and demand. Currently, there are plenty of teaching positions and too few qualified teachers to fill them. That gives teachers tremendous leverage. That's true across the South, not just here in the Triad.

If a teacher doesn't like the job GCS is offering, then Randolph County or Winston-Salem/Forsyth or Alamance-Burlington will be right there with a job offer.

That's what happened in Charlotte-Mecklenburg a couple of years ago. They tried to force teachers to work in some poor-neighborhood schools. Rather than do it, those teachers left for surrounding counties in droves. CMS quickly abandoned that plan.

And Tim, it's not necessarily a matter of building preference. Often, teachers prefer to work close to their homes.

And to be quite frank about it, most teachers don't want to work in schools with large numbers of poor, minority kids. It's not that these teachers are bigots, but these kids, as a group, bring more problems to school (academic, home and behavioral) than middle-class kids.

Teaching at any school is a tough job, and most teachers don't need any more problems on their plates. So it's hard to blame them for steering clear of a school with extra burdens and troubles.

Bruce,

You missed my point entirely. Of course it's not the "building" that attracts a teacher.

My point was that they HAVE preferences, for whatever reason. And SO DO parents and students. I could replace "students" for "teachers" in your sentence: "Often, teachers prefer to work close to their homes."

Am I just a blundering idiot, or does anyone else see the double-standard?

Students and families of GCS students deserve the same respect from the administration that they give teachers.

AND your "quite frank" paragraph that says:

"And to be quite frank about it, most teachers don't want to work in schools with large numbers of poor, minority kids. It's not that these teachers are bigots, but these kids, as a group, bring more problems to school (academic, home and behavioral) than middle-class kids."

--WELL, the same for my CHILD...it's not that we are "bigots" it is for the VERY SAME reasons that we should not be forcing children to a certain school..

Why is it that when we talk about teachers' preferences we wouldn't think to attach the nasty words like racism, bigots, etc...but when some families object to having their students ASSIGNED to a school, THEN these terms come out of the word-work. (Not by you Bruce, but in general).

This lottery, "assignment" plan is doing EXACTLY what Grier states is irrational to do to teachers. He needs to explain why it's okay for my child.

Bruce, another peeve....

Also, you say:

"Teaching at any school is a tough job, and most teachers don't need any more problems on their plates. So it's hard to blame them for steering clear of a school with extra burdens and troubles."

Well, how about "LEARNING" at any school is a tough job.......and most STUDENTS don't need any more problems on their plate.......ARE we forgetting that the STUDENTS have to be there EVERYDAY too????

I know you don't have kids yet, but when you do, you'll understand that they are PEOPLE--just shorter!

Hey, I already agree that children are people, too!

In my earlier post, I wasn't talking about the High Point reassignment plan, as you were. Some questions came up about why teachers get to pick their assignments and I tried to answer those questions. That's all.

Let's just please agree then that NO ONE, students NOR adults, should be ASSIGNED to a school.

This is America isn't it? God bless us all.

Bruce,

I am troubled by your response. You provided two reasons why teachers might not want to work in schools to which they may be assigned. Your first possible explanation is that the teacher may want to work closer to home. I understand that as a preference, and if that is the case, then how could going to another school district, which requires a commute, be a better answer? I just can't accept that answer, it isn't sensical. You don't change jobs and drive a longer distance to be closer to home.

Your second answer gives me great concern. If teachers are refusing assignments in schools with large numbers of poor and minority children, then the school district is failing the very students who need the most help. I understand that those schools tend to have more academic and behavioral problems, but it is Terry Grier's responsibility to ensure proper work conditions for those teachers, which he is apparently not doing. So Grier is failing in his job. Experts say that the most important factor to closing the achievement gap is highly-qualified teachers. This is more important than any one other factor, and Terry Grier is saying that he can't address this as needed.
So what's the answer, let those schools to continue failing? As tim has suggested, Terry Grier's solution seems to be to assign unpaid educational mercenaries from other schools to those schools. This technique won't actually do anything to close the achievement gap for those students, but it will help mask the problem by making the school look better. And, as tim suggests, using students to solve a school problem is unacceptable. They should have equal rights to teachers to refuse an assignment to a school not of their choosing. If not, perhaps they should have the right to attend school in another schoold district, giving them equal rights to the teachers.

I don't fault teachers for not wanting to teach in schools with heavier burdens and problems than ususal. As you said, a teacher's job is tough enough. But, my point is that Terry Grier and the School Board's job is to develop a plan that enables and encourages highly-qualified teachers to be assigned to those schools where they are desperately needed and can make a difference. If that means getting the behavioral problems under control and developing innovative incentive plans to attract teachers to those schools, then why aren't we doing it? It's not satisfactory for our school superintendent to just complain that assigning a teacher to a given school just doesn't work and do nothing. It's totally unacceptable to write-off those children and those schools in that manner. One might ask how can we afford extra compensation for those teachers? Simple, reallocate the funds that are currently being used to bus children around the county and redirect it toward improved compensation for those teachers. I can assure you that with sufficient motivation, you'll have teachers willing to teach in those schools. The money is already there, it's just not being used in an optimal manner. What's the best use, buying and operating buses or fairly compensating for making a difference in the life of a child?

Understand that I'm not defending the administration's handling of teacher hiring and retention nor am I saying they are doing everything they can to address this problem.

But this is not a problem unique to Guilford County - school systems all over the state are dealing with it. And fixing the problem won't be easy.

About four years ago, Dr. Grier tried a program that gave teachers a $7,500 bonus if they agreed to spend three years in a poor-neighborhood school. Virtually no one took him up on that offer. After a couple of fruitless years, the district dropped that idea.

Was the problem, as some have suggested, that the bonus simply wasn't big enough? Would a bigger bonus have attracted teachers to these schools? Could be.

But don't forget that every penny comes out of the taxpayers' wallet. You also get into equity issues, where teachers at other schools say, "I'm busting my tail, too. Why don't I get a bonus?"

As for your geography question, it makes more sense that it appears on first glace.

A teacher who lives in, say, Colfax might love working at Colfax Elementary or Northwest High. But rather than accept a transfer into Greensboro or High Point, they could go to Kernersville and stay closer to home.

The same applies for teachers in the Gibsonville/Sedalia/McLeansville area. They're closer to Alamance County than they are to many schools in Guilford County. Likewise, teachers in Browns Summit can get to Reidsville a lot quicker than they can be many parts of Guilford County.

Teddy,

Agreed, to all your above words. A phenomenal idea. Let's advocate to "buy teachers, NOT buses". A fine bumper-sticker that would make.

In fact, how many teacher raises would fit into the cost of just ONE bus?

I think teachers would relish at the idea of more pay to venture into schools that wouldn't necessarily be their "first choice".

Of course suggesting this idea to a board full of nay-sayers is another thing.

I LOVED John Hammer's analogy of our board driving around and around in circles to avoid possibly taking the WRONG exit. He equated this to their inability to make a decision on anything. I'm guessing that if the "buy a teacher, NOT a bus" idea was put before them, it would be a loooong drive.

I would love to call on all the parents of these board members (rest their soul if they are not living) and tell them to smack their "children" upside the head so maybe they will just snap out of this rut that they are in about bad decision-making and NO decision making.

Anyway, yea, great idea. Money talks. Grier might even understand that.

Teddy,

Agreed, to all your above words. A phenomenal idea. Let's advocate to "buy teachers, NOT buses". A fine bumper-sticker that would make.

In fact, how many teacher raises would fit into the cost of just ONE bus?

I think teachers would relish at the idea of more pay to venture into schools that wouldn't necessarily be their "first choice".

Of course suggesting this idea to a board full of nay-sayers is another thing.

I LOVED John Hammer's analogy of our board driving around and around in circles to avoid possibly taking the WRONG exit. He equated this to their inability to make a decision on anything. I'm guessing that if the "buy a teacher, NOT a bus" idea was put before them, it would be a loooong drive.

I would love to call on all the parents of these board members (rest their soul if they are not living) and tell them to smack their "children" upside the head so maybe they will just snap out of this rut that they are in about bad decision-making and NO decision making.

Anyway, yea, great idea. Money talks. Grier might even understand that.

Bruce,

I hear you, but I have a few responses:

1)It is understood that all school districts have problems recruiting qualified teachers, that is why GCS needs to create a difference for itself. It needs to be a school district that teachers want to line-up within which to teach. Right now, GCS doesn't have a good reputation as a desirable schol district. Trust me, there are school distrcits that teachers want to work for where they are treated properly and their valuable work is appreciated, much more so than this one.

2)$7,500 may not have been enough to incent teachers to teach in poorer schools, but I suspect that Terry Grier also did nothing to improve the work conditions for those teachers either. As I said before, GCS needs to improve the work conditions in some of those schools, such as improving discipline and violence concerns. If it takes $10,000, $15,000, even $20,000 premium, then that is what we need to do.

3)Simply, if other teachers want to get that premium, then they could volunteer to teach in one of those schools. I don;t consider that a serious argument. Many organizations offer premium pay to employees for more difficult work or tougher working conditions. As far as where does the money come from? We waste tons of money in this school district in unproductive ways which don't really help to close the achievement gap or achieve the its central purpose - educate the students. Reduce busing of students. Reduce expensive magnet schools, to name a few.

4) Sure, there are situations where a teacher's residence location might make going out of district attractive, but that really isn't central to this discussion. Those teachers might make that decision whether they were asked to work in a poor school or not. But, we have teachers leaving the district by the dozens all of the time. Has anyone investigated why that is happening? The answers may be very revealing to the problems that exist in GCS, and the majority of the reasons may not be money related at all. Teachers are like any other employee; most times they leave their employer not for money, but because of many other concerns that they have about the organization for which they work.

Finally, Terry Grier gets paid to solve these problems. If all of these problems were easy, anyone could do the job with 1/2 of Terry Grier's qualifications and for 1/2 of his pay level. It's time that he gets on with solving the difficult problems, instead of seeking new and innovative solutions to problems that don't exist or are not needed.

You are definitely right when you say there's more to the teacher morale problem than just pay.

Jennifer and I wrote a story back in July about the 2004 Teacher Satisfaction Survey conducted by Gov. Easley's office. That survey found that Guilford County Schools teachers ranked lowest among the state's urban school systems in teacher satisfaction.

GCS also ranked below smaller neighbors like Rockingham County and Randolph County, which pay less, and ranked below the state as a whole.

Teddy Ballgame,

You're on the ball as usual. Excellent and well written points. It would be great if you could fire that off to Grier and his goonies asap.

Teddy, Tiny, Bruce and Jen and all the Chaulkboard gang,

You are all right. It gets down to (here we go again) Abraham Maslow and the Hierarchy of Needs.
With the physiological needs being met at the bottom of the triangle (i.e., food, shelter and clothing met by a salary), we move on to SAFETY.
Teachers want to feel SAFE and that they are not in danger if they break up a fight. I don't think they want a broken nose and to have to still face this same kid in the hall every day because he is not suspended. How humiliating is that?

Then we move up to belonging and esteem needs. Teachers want to feel like they "belong" and are appreciated. It does not take much. It would be nice to be truly listened to. Self-esteem needs must be met or a person is unhappy.

It IS economics, and supply and demand. If they are in a horrible situation, there bookbags have "wheels" - they move on to another county or area or career. If you are in a no win, frustrating situation where you are miserable, you are not going to stay.

Some teachers fit better in certain schools and do like to be close to home. Others could be compensated for driving further or for schools that have proven to be a challenge.

The bottom line is this: FIX THE SCHOOLS. Make all schools a safe, nurturing place for students to be. Remove the trouble to Alternative Schools; support the teachers and have teamwork and incentives; a commonsense approach.

If the schools are working students and teachers will want to come.

This one is going to make me unpopular.

Consider this for a moment: You are Dr. Grier, how would you have solved the High Point situation? Basically, those schools were still segregated. Is that fair to the minority children who deserve a better education? Is that fair to the teachers who were struggling to meet their needs?

We may not agree with the manner in which Grier went about trying to resegregate schools in High Point, but you have to give him credit for committing what I see to be as "professional suicide" for taking the risk.

You all are angry because the risk involves your children. But are your children the minorities that are failing, dropping out, or going to jail because the system is failing them? How angry would you be then?

The other side of the coin is that Grier is some student's hero for what he is doing. He is braving a storm for them. Historically, no one does that for the minority student because when they do they are driven out of town.

So, as you gather your pitch forks and prepare to send Grier packing, remember that there are kids out there who need him. Your children will make it. They will make it regardless because they have you. Be thankful for that. Be thankful that for that and so much more.

Public education has not been kind to the poor and the weak because they do not have parents like all of you. Since it is the "squeaky wheel that will get oiled", more than likely, you all will finally get your way and High Point will restructure again. When it does are you all going to remember the ones who Grier was fighting for?

Toby,

I'll give you the short answer here. Your theory is that the High Point Choice Plan was implemented because two of the schools were segregated, and by default, that meant that the minority children couldn't get a good education. If you believe that busing children from another school actually improves the education of the existing minority students at that school, then there is no hope. How did the Choice Plan improve the minority children's education at Andrews? Please give me one documented example of how the plan has helped those students and improved their education. This has been a case of lose-lose. No one has been the winner here. And to make it worse, Terry Grier has now removed Title I designation at these schools, so that minority child can't escape from the failing school, and thus, denying them their rights under federal law.

Yeah, Terry Grier is a heroic figure to be emulated for sure.

Toby,

You state, "Basically, those schools were still segregated. Is that fair to the minority children who deserve a better education?"

Do you actually believe that a minority child cannot learn unless seated beside a white child?

That is what your statment says.

How dare you insult the minority children in this county!

I will agree with Teddy and also paraphrase the question that was asked of Doug Clark in his blog (he couldn't answer the question) and also of "sc" (who also couldn't answer the question):

Name one positive academic achievement of the High Point Choice Plan.

I challenge anyone to answer that one. It's impossible.

Toby,

Have you actually read the "plan" for the High Point High Schools?

Did you read the 800-page grant that the administration applied for last year, to whip these High Schools into "World-class" magnets?

Althought the grant money was denied, this same "plan" is being implemented. So, the best place to get information about these programs, is from that initial grant document.

It's interesting reading. I would encourage you to read it. AFTER you read it. Then I would like to hear from you. I think you'll feel like you have a big, fat foot in your mouth.

I'll give you a quick summary of the plan:

NO WHERE in the entire document, does it CHANGE the way that low-performing, minority children are taught. NO special classes, NO special instruction, NO CHANGES WHAT-SO-EVER.

So, your concerns that you are directing to the parents of the affected community, should be addressed to the Guilford County School Board and Dr. Grier. If you are truly concerned about these low-performers and struggling students, as you would like us to believe, then you should ask the administration WHAT THEY are doing to fix it. The High Point "Choice" Plan fixes NOTHING. This is the myth that the good Doctor would like you to believe. On paper, when scores are averaged at each school (you do understand averages?) it may look like scores are up.

But Toby, the very kids that you lose sleep over, are STILL struggling....we just can't see them as clearly because Grier has hidden their scores.

I too feel for these kids, as everyone who has been opposed to this plan. So, after reading the plan, tell me THEN who you think Grier is fighting for?

Quest,

Toby didn't insult minority children or anyone else. He simply expressed an opinion different from yours. That is his right, just as you have the right to express your opinion here. Let's be a little more respectful of that.

Bruce,

I don't see any of the other N&R blog sites being monitored by a "daddy" figure. In fact, the enjoyable sites are the ones where posters can just say what they want.

Give your writers a little credit. If someone says something that is misinterpreted from what they intended, I think that they should be able to speak for themselves.

Don't ruin a good thing. I think your audience is smarter than you think.

After reading "Toby's" post, I too must disaggree that integration equates to "help" for minority children. In essence, that is saying that minority children learn better when seated next to non-minority children.

As a black parent, THAT IS an insult to minority children. So I would agree with "Quest" and would hope that our school system could find better ways to educate our children than just changing around the seating.

Thank you

Casual observer,

Two points:

1. I've not heard of posters on any of the other N&R blogs receiving nasty, borderline threatening e-mails after posting unpopular ideas. That has happened to posters here, much to my regret.

2. What the other moderators do on their blogs is their business. But Jennifer and I oversee this site and I'm determined to have a civil environment. That's just the way it's going to be.

Bruce,

If posters on this site have received borderline threatening emails as you say, and you know who did it, then it's your responsibility to report their name or handle on this board, and send that poster an admonishment. Exposing that behavior to the world will stop it.

As regards your admonishment to quest. Toby has made some statements of his "opinion" insinuating that minority children are unable to learn in what he views is a segregated environment. Where is the evidence that is the problem? He also says that the system has failed minority children. Isn't Terry Grier responsible for that failure? He's the school superintendent. How can he be the hero in this show and be responsible for the failure at the same time, because he talks a good talk and has a lot of people fooled?

Further, Toby advances the problem as such, "You are Dr. Grier, how would you have solved the High Point situation? Basically, those schools were still segregated. Is that fair to the minority children who deserve a better education? Is that fair to the teachers who were struggling to meet their needs?" My question is what High Point situation does Toby think that we are trying to solve? I thought that we were trying to solve the problem of all children getting a good education - which should be Terry Grier's objective, and the High Point Lottery Plan has done nothing to improve the education of those minority children. The statistics reported to-date do not show anything positive in regard to improving the education level has actually occurred. Perhaps, you and/or Toby could enlighten us as to what has actually improved in the first year of the Lottery Plan? the statistics that I see say things have actually gotten worse.

I have watched this site recently and think it is time I clarify a few things for the newcomers to High Point. I am a 3rd generation resident - my grandparents moved here from Hickory many years ago.

Not that many years ago, both High Point Central and Andrews High Schools were excellent schools with excellent reputations. No one could match Andrews' debate team.

The redistricting plan of 1999 shuffled families around. The explosion of growth in North High Point was not met with the building of new schools for those residents. Thus, in order to avoid those students being bused across town, they were sent to Southwest, but this caused a problem for many people who lived close to Southwest and these families were redistricted to Andrews.

Last year's battle between the North High Point families and the rest of High Point was very interesting because while they became enemies of each other - they all wanted the same thing. They all wanted to have the right to attend the closest school to their homes. The obvious answer would have been to build a high school in North High Point, but no.

So, the "handful of Andrews parents" as they became known, coupled with a few Central parents, pleaded with the School Board to fix the problems at their respective schools. The board did nothing.

When the High Point Choice plan came around, the "handful of Andrews parents" saw a chance to opt out of their High School which was not being served by the board. The North High Point families felt threatened because they were happy at Southwest.

In listening to the many speakers last year at board meetings, I would often hear "I live 1.8 miles from Southwest High School, but I am redistricted to Andrews. Those Jamestown (aka North High Point) families are closer to Ragsdale, not Southwest".

Right!!!

Why didn't the board just redistrict the Jamestown/North High Point families to Ragsdale and be done?

Both sides of the battle wanted the same thing - attend school closest to home and have a good academic environment in which to live.

The School Board failed everyone with the High Point Choice Plan.

Posters to this site are correct - it has done nothing to educate struggling students. Test scores are down and I have no confidence they will rise with this plan in place.

Do I have all the answers - no. I just wanted to bring a history lesson to all.

Oh, and by the way, it is also interesting that the North High Point residents were labeled as whiny white wealthy parents.

Remember those "handful of disgruntled Andrews parents" and the other Central families who joined in the fight for the HP CP? Those families are quite wealthy (medical professionals) and white.

Bruce,

Which post is the "border-line threatening" one? I havent' seen any threats. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe that "threatening" emails are being sent either.

Surely you can tell that no one posts their true email address.

C'mon Bruce, what's the REAL agenda? Did Grier call you yet AGAIN?

HPgirl,

Thank you for your logical and sobering post that puts this whole controversy in perspective. From everything that I know and have heard, it is a very accurate accounting of events.

You made an observation that it would have been reasonable for Jamestown/North High Point students to have been sent to Ragsdale. That very question was asked of Terry Grier, and his answer was that wasn't possible because Ragsdale wasn't in High Point. Now, if that makes any sense, I would like for someone to explain it. Jamestown (or even some North High Point) residents don't live in High Point, so if they need to be reassigned to another school, what does High Point have to do with it? Terry Grier was never challenged by the News-Record reporters on that statement, and it was just left to be as a factual statement. It's obvious that the High Point Schools system is being recreated within GCS, basically a little educational gulag. Heck, even when Andrews, Central, and Southwest are referred to now, they are known as the "High Point Schools". Perhaps the time has come as suggested in the News-Record editorial today for deconsolidation of GCS and to let High Point residents really operate its own schools. That would be preferable to being treated as second class schools within the GCS district.

I think HP girl had some very valid points. If we are truly one system, why does it matter where the HP lines are? I would love to go back to 3 separate school systems, but don't think that will happen. The county schools get the short stick alot of the times. Back in 2000 what schools got the bond money?-- not the ones with growth issues, but 400 seats were put at Andrews even though they weren't needed! Haiston(sp?) was built but not needed, and I don't think its full yet... many decisions are made for political reasons, you vote for mine, I'll vote for yours! Not matter which school has the most trailors, or which area has no growth-- look at 2003 bond many of the same issues there.

It will continue this way until changes are made on the board. Hopefully more people will remember this when the next election in 06 comes. Alan, Susan, Martie, Nancy, Deena will all be up for reelection. It will be interesting to see which areas are happy with their representatives.

You start your post off with "Consider this for a moment: You are Dr. Grier, how would you have solved the High Point situation? Basically, those schools were still segregated."

Earth to Toby; I understand your concern for diversity in our schools but this is a countywide system and have you not noticed the majority of Guilford County Schools are segregated.

Wouldn’t the heroic thing be to implement diversity countywide? Why should not all the children in Guilford County benefit from such a noble move?

Do you realize that Guilford County is the only large school system in North Carolina interested in implementing diversity in one geographical area? When it’s convenient, we hear about what CMS and Wake County are doing. Both Wake and CMS systems have countywide attendance policies and both have home or base schools for “all” residents; not just the few they plucked from the apple tree.

The moving of students from one location to another does create diversity, which is certainly deemed healthy for society. However, diversity in itself does nothing to improve the test scores of struggling students. The long bus rides and before the rooster crows rising of children however wears on students, drivers and teachers.

If Dr Grier and gang really wanted to help, they would have looked at smaller class size (remember there was lots of room in two of the schools) with discipline and structure. If you cannot read or write why are we, glorifying computer labs, foreign languages, countless dance classes.

You do not have to look/listen too hard to see/hear the closed minds of Guilford County do you?

First of all, it has taken decades for the segregation of the schools to marginalize the children and parents in this county. You can not possibly imagine Grier to fix this in one year. But, at least he is making an attempt.

Secondly, by definition minority does not mean just African American. (Funny how I was suddenly singled out but not specifically labelled on that one!)

A Minority could be labelled by color, sex, economic status, etc.

I never stated that the minority could not learn unless seated next to a white kid. However, when disadvantaged children are exposed to the priviledged it opens up avenues for them that they never knew existed. Sometimes this is uncomfortable for the priviledged and there are a few who are not always willing to allow the disadvantaged kids to hang around with their children...But, by in large, when districts put forth a good faith effort to desegregate, yes, this sometimes means busing! then all stand to win.

So, in my opinion, that would be an academic advantage of the High Point plan. Maybe you won't see it as an A+ on paper, but if your lil James came home with a friend that didn't look anything like him and that relationship grew to a few more friends which grew and grew...
And then one day this whole "issue" that we are discussing, whether you want to admit it or not, wouldn't even be a topic of interest. Because I really think if all of the HP schools were equal and there wasn't any violence, racial tension, low performance, etc. than you wouldn't care where they bused your kid.

Toby,

Diversity can encompass many things, I did not mention race that was your doing.

I do not even want to hear Grier had to start somewhere! What he should have started was an educational plan to address academic needs not force kids to attend a magnet school. What good is a magnet school if you cannot even attend the one you are “attracted” to?

By the way, what are you thoughts on what could have been smaller classrooms with discipline and structure?

The race card is old and worn.

toby,

You lost me on your last post. You state, "So, in my opinion, that would be an academic advantage of the High Point plan."

I don't know what you are talking about. My question to you was "How did the Choice Plan improve the minority children's education at Andrews? Please give me one documented example of how the plan has helped those students and improved their education." I don't see a documented example in your reponse to my question. Please be more specific in your answer.

You say that Terry Grier can't be expected to fix all of the problems caused by segregation in one year. He's been here for 4 or 5 years now. How long is it going to take for him to get started? And, do we expect that the educational experience of all children in the county have to hit rock bottom before we start making progress? Do we call this progress? And, when are we going to get started fixing these same problems in Greensboro schools? The problem is as bad or worse there, so we better get started soon, if it is going to take us decades.

Toby,

I had to go take a tylenol after reading your post. I'm so confused. Are you saying that if all the High Point High schools were "equal", and I'm not sure what you mean by that, then all of the other problems will just miraculously go away? You mean, "violence, racial tension, and low performance" are just--POOF!--gone?

Toby, I'm almost laughing. If this weren't such a serious topic, I would be, but the fact that you truly believe this nonense, is actually more scary.

On what do you base this? Is this just an assumption that you're going on? A guess? A HOPE? You sound like a school board member. This is the kind of irrational thinking that starts these fiascos.

Really, please give me evidence that creating "equal" schools means an end to all problems. AND, please elaborate on what "equal" means.

Sherry,

I think that you are on to something here. When toby made the comment about the HP schools being equal, it reminded me of a comment made by Dot Kearns that was published in the HPE over one year ago. Her comment was to the effect that wouldn't it be wonderful if the High Point schools were equal. I'd never heard anyone put it in those terms before or since, and it really wasn't clear then what that meant. Is it possible that toby is really Dot Kearns' alter ego?

Hey Guys,

Tobys' comments sound like another attempt by the socialist army of Dot Kearns to divide the community once again.

True unity by the citizens of High Point scares the hell out of Grier and Kearns.

High Point must come together and overthrow the Grier Regime in order to bring common sense education back to our town.

Dot Kearns Believes that a large segment of our population in High Point is not smart enough to make decisions for themselves.If she had her way she not only would tell you where to go to school, but would also tell you where to live and what to eat.

Dots' Socialists beliefs are beginning to lean toward pure Communism.

Toby, I have not heard such a socialist agenda since the last time Dot Kearns opened her mouth. Any way you have raised several questions that I am glad to address.

"You do not have to look/listen too hard to see/hear the closed minds of Guilford County do you?"
You are absolutely right, all I need to do is tune in to a Board of Education meeting and I can see these closed minds in action as well as their highly overpaid support staff. Or better yet go down and watch them in action during public speaking so you can see that "glazed over look" set in.

"First of all, it has taken decades for the segregation of the schools to marginalize the children and parents in this county. You can not possibly imagine Grier to fix this in one year. But, at least he is making an attempt."
No, I can't imagine Grier fixing a spare tire in a year, let alone the school system. You rationalize keeping someone around at a six-figure salary because they are making an "attempt"? The only thing that needs fixing when it comes to Grier is his overstuffed wallet, which has gotten that way at the expense of the taxpayers of Guilford County and their children and grandchildren.

"Secondly, by definition minority does not mean just African American. (Funny how I was suddenly singled out but not specifically labelled on that one!)"
I know what you mean about minority; you see I know many parents who feel that they and their children are in the minority when it comes to representation on the School Board.

"A Minority could be labelled by color, sex, economic status, etc."
See answer given above.

"But, by in large, when districts put forth a good faith effort to desegregate, yes, this sometimes means busing! then all stand to win."
I was unable to copy the entire statement here, my computer fails to recognize certain double speak, it's a little added feature Microsoft provides.
"All stand to win" via busing:? Do you mean Thomas Built Buses, Goodyear, Castrol, and whatever local company has the fuel contract? I tell you who doesn't win and that's the children and the taxpayers.
Please decribe to me how a child wins by being on a bus two to three hours per day; in particular when there is a school within a 10 to 20 minute walk for the same child.
It's clear that the taxpayers don't win with the cost of fuel perhaps double for the '05-'06 school year compared to when this plan was first dreamed up.
If I paraphrase your opening remark I do agree with you as follows: "when districts put forth a good faith effert all stand to win". That's the problem in Guilford County, the School Board is not putting forth a good faith effort and as a result everyone stands to lose.

"Because I really think if all of the HP schools were equal and there wasn't any violence, racial tension, low performance, etc. than you wouldn't care where they bused your kid."
Correction, I am always going to care where you bus my kid, especially when her current bus is actally a pair of sneakers.
As far as the equality comment I believe that all the schools are already equal. I feel everyone starts at zero and school becomes what you put into it; not the other way around where you ARE GIVEN everything. I'm sorry but I do not believe in hand outs and that is the underlying theme to your logic.

I heard from a friend that the federal government has been notified and is currently investigating the 12 million dollar grant application for the High Point schools from last year. The grant application stated that these funds were to be used for magnet schools. Now Guilford County Schools is stating that these schools are not magnets. The schools are exactly what was presented in the grant application to obtain federal funds. My understanding from her is that filing fraudulant documentation is a very serious crime. She has done this type of work for a long time and knows how the system works.

It should be interesting to see how this turns out.

Miranda...you're always Right!

Wow, you all sure have been busy. Don't you all take time out for basketball? (which is where I will be soon, waiting for Duke to win! Hope you all caught the exciting Wake game but alas was not meant to be.....now for school stuff...

Bruce, please lighten up. I haven't seen anything threatening on this web site. I think Toby has handled herself quite fine. (I have seen cuss words as someone mentioned on other N & R blogg sites and much worse on others.) I have seen many folks blasted and they have taken care of themselves. What is nice about the Chaulkbaord is you get to discuss the issues and share ideas unlike 3 mins school board speech where there is NO feedback. What you have to remember is you are dealing with Mama Bears and Papa Bears. These are their kids. You will know the feeling one day. It is your blogg site but I think why it is so popular is that people can have freedom of speech to express themselves freely.

HPgirl (don't fear, Toby, I am addressing your comments last - saving best for last)

You have some very legitimate points. To quote you, "The board did nothing" to help the handful of Andrews parents.

As far as Jamestown and the Jamestown Area which is actually COUNTY and in no city; we are closer to Ragsdale and also probably Western. We did not set up the "zones" in 1999. That was done by a committee. We are redistricted to the zone they put us in. Someone on here (I think Teddy) made reference to Grier's comments that Ragsdale is not involved in the "Choice" Plan because they are not in Jametown. Jennifer F wrote that article and it was never corrected. We have to go to school some place. SWH has been our traditional school and between the 3 HP schools, that is our closest school. Why do some people continually begrudge the Guilford Road Corridor going to Southwest?

You are also correct in "The SB failed everyone with the HP Choice plan." Look at the test scores and suspension rates.

Whoever labeled the North HP resident as whiny wealthy white parents was WRONG. Most may be white - they can't help that; I don't call passion and concern for your children - whiny; and many are definitely NOT wealthy. Most come from two income families; juggle schedules; have no extended family back-up support like the long established residents and many, many people I know have lost their jobs to this great NC economy.

You are right about "quite wealthy and white" Central families. That is a fact.

now....

Toby, Toby, Toby,

You ask how Grier should have solved the situation in High Point. Who created "the situation"? It was the school board who put in empty seats at Andrews with taxpayers money in a landlocked school. Andrews used to be a great school.

You talk about those schools still being segregated. Wake up and look around you - what about Dudley and Smith? Why is everyone always trying to "save" High Point??

You talk about minority children who deserve a better education? What does putting a minority child on a long bus ride or bringing in a white kid to sit beside him do for this minority child's education? Where in the HP "Choice" Plan is education addressed for these kids? smaller classrooms? teacher assistants? tutors? Please show us where helping these kids is addressed.

As far as teachers struggling to meet their needs. Look how many teachers have LEFT since the "Choice" Plan. Look how many principals have left. Does providing kids with test score answers help their needs? Remember last year's scandal and Andrews and the tests?

I am glad you said Dr. Grier and "resegregating" schools. I thought that busing for segregation purposes was illegal. I also remember reading some time ago that it was not Grier's plan so why is it his "professional suicide". Even if it were Grier's original plan (which I heard it was not) , it is the school board who voted for it and the school board who put the plan in action. Grier works for them. They work for the taxpayers. If he is here, he is doing exactly what the school board wants of him.

People have said we want our High Point schools "equal". Well now they are. No Title I money for a struggling school; no opt out for kids in a struggling school thanks to shifting these funds recently. NCLB was written to help all kids who were in a failing school; not just minorities.

People pay taxes for public education and all kids have a right to a public education; not just minorities.

Please don't assume that you know why parents are angry. Trust me. YOU DON'T! Yes, some kids are the minorities and they are failing. I don't see where breaking the law and going to jail has anything to do with the SCHOOLS failing them. In fact, if laws are being broken and Alternative Schools and programs are set up to help the kids who cannot function in a regular classroom, this may be their only last hope. I would say their parents failed them or lack of parenting failed them. I thought a schools job was to educate and not be social workers.

As to "your child will make it". You don't know everyone's child. Just because some kids are not poor or a minority does not mean it is easy for them either. All kids have different abilities; there are other needs. Bottom line; people pay taxes; their kids have a right to a public education in a SAFE environment.

As far as the "squeaky wheel get oiled" - wrong again. There were 800 plus squeaky wheels before the HP "Choice" plan vote. No one listened. Only now when the writing is on the wall that the plan is failing as the school board was told it would, will issues possibly be addressed.

Now Toby, for you last post.....

"disadvantaged children are exposed ot the privileged it opens up avenues for them...." Do you think that the kids from the projects (and this is not meant to offend anyone here) are going to be invited to the Emorywood Country Club for tea and or to the cotillion? Give me a break.

At any school no matter how diverse and mixed it is, kids hang in groups: the nerds; the jocks; the Goths; etc. This has been how it always was. Kids seek their own identities/groups of friends. The important issue is they have tolerance for different kinds of people and respect. I think there is a difference between "disadvantaged" referring to income levels and that kids do hang out with those kids. But I don't think a responsible parent is going to let their child hang out with anyone they deem as a trouble maker or in trouble with the law or a child that is given no boundaries, regardless of their income. They may not let them hang out with a rich kid either.

And finally you talk about the HP schools being "equal" while now they are (see what I said previously). The violence is getting equal too. A few Fridays ago, SWH had a gang fight in school; Central has had their many problems. Violence is in all the schools. Yep, they're equal all right. Low performance - that's becoming equal to - just move the kids around and hide them - easy to make it "equal" that way.

As far as my kid ever being put on a bus for 3 hours a day, WRONG, I would care. that is why my kid did not get bused to the Very Strong Needs program at Aycock. We skipped the test because I would never put her on a bus that far. I would drive or opt for private school if my kid was forced to be bused. And remember Forced Busing is illegal!

Last I checked this is America and you can live where you choose.

and Toby p.s.

You must be one of 3 school board members I am thinking of or a very close relative of same.

I've been away on business for a few days - missed you while I was gone.

Someone posted a challenge to name one single positive academic achievement of the High Point Choice Plan. As a Gamblin Man, I'd set 100 to 1 odds that that challenge won't be met.

Bruce/Jennifer - Will you be posting a summary of the board retreat meeting today?

Hey, don't blame Bruce for thinking we could all be polite. Originally, that is what I thought we could do here, too.

I guess we just had high hopes for this blog, that it would be a place for civilized discussion.

You're right, though. This is supposed to be your place to discuss things. If you choose to let it disintegrate into namecalling or worse, that's your call. We're all adults here. (At least, I don't think any kids are reading this. But hey, we're not saying anything or acting any differently here than we would in front of the kids anyway, right?)

And yes, this is truly me speaking - Jennifer Fernandez. Not my editor. Not a school board member. Not Obi Wan Kenobi. Plain old me.

Jennifer,

You made me laugh! And I was preparing myself for another scolding.

I really don't think that folks "haven't been polite." It's just that feelings run hard and strong on school issues lately. In fact, I have appreciated reading all the posts so far. It's a great way to really understand what is going on. I don't believe that you will have posters saying, "yes, ma'm and "no, sir"...at least while the "Choice" plan is still in effect anyway!

I appreciate all that you and Bruce have done as far as research, staying abreast of the conversations here, and attempting to answer questions. It has been VERY helpful. We've gotten MORE questions answered via this forum than with the school board directly. So, I hope that you two know that you're appreciated. I imagine it's hard to stay unbiased and just report the facts when your school board is like a 3-ring circus.

Please tell Bruce that he doesn't have to worry so much. We won't beat each other up over here at the chalkboard. It's just friendly debating....

Anyway, speaking for myself, and I know that others will agree, the chalkboard is a great place to hang. We appreciate you and Bruce and I think you'll be quite proud of the smarts of your chalkboard regulars.

Now, any ideas on how to get our School Board to start a blog?...now THAT would be interesting.

Gamblin Man,

We are glad you are back too. Gamblin Man has asked and I believe Teddy and now I am asking:

CAN ANYONE NAME ONE SINGLE ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT OF THE HP "CHOICE" PLAN? I stress the word "academic". We are not talking socialism or busing to create a diverse mix, just ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT.

Maybe Bruce and Jen can offer a special prize if anyone can answer this like a giant jar of jellybeans to anyone who can answer that question. They will make sure that they are diverse jellybeans to represent all the different views on the Chaulkboard.

Okay Jen I think you convinced us it's you. And Jellybean person is right - I don't know of anyone beating anyone up or hitting them over the head with a Chaulkboard. Think of us as the actual chaulk or the fingernails that scratch on a chaulkboard. You will just have to tolerate the irratating sound but it may make some folks wake-up. If we can do that and spread awareness of the real issues and hidden agendas, we have accomplished something.

Ditto that on appreciating all the time Bruce and Jen put into research. I saw the Rhino's version of some School Board meeting where they had, yes, ANOTHER CONSULTANT. Whipped an e-mail off to all of them and TG yesterday regarding same. Won't do any good but it made me feel better.

So can you guys give us a summary of the retreat here; also the meeting the Rhino wrote about.

Thank you.

Guilford County School Board is finally starting to look into the issue that could change the course of education in our area.

A self-imposed Pay Raise.

What a world we live in.

HEY!!!

I can do it!!!! I can think of one!!! Yea, I got it. I hope I win the JELLYBEANS!!

Sit down....Here it is...ONE academic achievement of the HIGH POINT "CHOICE" PLAN:

UH, Hum.....Ready...Here it goes....a....well,.....okay, I thought I had one.

Sorry. Can't think of a thing!.....Hum.....still thinking....

.... well, I'll TRY... Maybe the fact that the choice plan drove some kids to private school? Yea, that's it, I bet that THEY are achieving academically!

I did it!!! I win!!! Yahoo!!!!!!!

Please find below a quote from SUSAN MENDENHALL--from today's article about possible pay raises for board members:

"It limits the people who can run (for school board) if they don't feel they will be compensated for these expenses," Mendenhall said.

However, she said even discussing a board pay raise won't be popular with many citizens.

Note to Susan:

Thank you for acknowledging that there is a NEED for others to run for the School Board. I hope you are thinking of the person that will be taking YOUR seat in 2006. I would pay that particular person MILLIONS per month.

Also, your quote saying that a raise won't be popular with many citizens.

Why do you say that?

Do you feel that the citizens do not feel that the board has EARNED a raise? Or are you just admitting that you KNOW that it would be WRONG to accept a raise when you have screwed High Point schools out of federal dollars?

Is that what you're thinking Susan?

And where will this money for a raise come from Ms. Mendenhall, representative for HIGH POINT?? Will you just come over and take it out of the mouths of the students at Central, Andrews and Southwest? Maybe you could take some of the computers and books from Andrews and sell them on EBAY? Or tell the commissioners that you REALLY need more money for that High Point Choice Plan, and then you can just pocket it.

Susan, why don't you come out to High Point sometime and ASK your constituents what they think about this proposed raise for yourself? When's the last time that you even communicated with the community that you represent?

I invite you to come visit us. We're still here, we haven't gone anywhere. We'll be at one of the 3 High Schools if you want to come out. Can't say for sure which one yet, the lottery is still in progress. But do come on over, we'll let you know what we think.

Interesting that the board didn't bring up the subject of raises before the election.

I think the board members ought to survey their own constituents and see how we really feel about a raise.

Who does their performance appraisals? Grier?

If poor Susan can't afford the gas to her meetings in Greensboro, she has several options:

Carpool with Dot
Take a bus
Buy a hybrid, they get wonderful mileage
Move to be closer to Greensboro

I, personally like option 3, then she wouldn't be my (supposed) representative.

Doesn't this make you wonder about how the board can support the transportation costs of the magnet program???

What a bunch of dolts.

I LOVE the bus option for Susan to get to Greensboro!

I think there's a Guilford County School bus that leaves High Point around 5:55 am. and returns somewhere around 6p.m. If she caught a ride on this, she could just stay in the Gate City for the entire day! Then no need to drive out a couple of times.

NC transplant is a genius! Then yes, Dotty could ride with her. What quality time they would have together to plot and plan their next experiment on the kids in High Point! FABULOUS!

And a big NEGATIVE on that raise idea! If Grier has found extra money, I would hope that he would use it to fund the next round of new trailers.

Someone asked why the pay raise wasn't brough up before the election. There are elections of some of the board every two years so this is in advance of the next election.

If someone has objection to such a raise for our current board, then propose making it effective after the next election cycle.

It is very easy to snipe about particular sitting board members, and I do my share, but... attracting quality candidates requires them to at least know they will not lose any money through their service.

The compensation of our public officials in Guilford County and Greensboro is embarrasingly low. It would seem that some of you might adhere to the argument that, with some exceptions, we get what we pay for.

Stop thinking about the pay issue as a way of protesting issues or members that you disagree with in the present. Think of how such an adjustment in compensation might open up the idea of running and serving to everyday, engaged citizens who simply can't afford to serve. Like, say... you.

I guess we agree on this one.

Slakattak has been in the Lab again and has come up with a new experimental lottery system to disperse pay amongst our esteemed school board.

This new plan is based on socio-economics and will try to equalize the net worth of our school board members.

We as citizens of this county cannot expect some of the poorer school board members to be able to make good decisions on education when their self-esteem is injured from having to sit on a board with such economic seperation.

Would you believe that we have one board member that cannot even afford to pay her property taxes on time!!!What a travesty.

We also have a member that can barely afford the gas to get to the meetings and home again.

This should not be happening in America!!

My plan will take the pay of the top 30% of board members and disperse it from the bottom up until all members are able to pay their property taxes in full.

Step two will involve acquiring all assets of board members and equally distributing them among each other in order to make them feel better about themselves,and at that point hopefully equal intelligence will spread across the panel.

Step three, if needed, will consist of a residential exchange lottery. A " Musical chairs of homes",If you will.Maybe its' time all board members got to experience the Irving Park Lifestyle.

With the help of the citizens and board members,I truly believe this plan will make everyone feel good about themselves and giant strides can be made for our schools.

P.S. Please forward any "Lose Change" to Susan Mendenhall for Gas.

"If someone has objection to such a raise for our current board, then propose making it effective after the next election cycle."

-David Hoggard's words above-

I have to admit that this is a pretty good idea. A pay raise starting in 2006 IS something that I would support.

Good idea Mr. Hoggard.

I'll second the idea about linking raises to the next election cycle. And if anyone who was elected/re-elected in 2004 would like to seek a raise they could throw themselves back before their constituents as well.

Funny...the board decided NOT to give Grier a raise last year but they want to give themselves a raise? Joe Stafford will have a fit over that one!

Wrong- Joe Stafford spoke about 8 weeks ago and told everyone that the board needed raises so that more people would feel like they could run.

I can see it now. Joe Stafford, boombox in hand, coming up to speak (last of course) at the next board meeting. He'll turn on his boombox and for 3 minutes we'll get to hear one of these songs below:

Donna Summer, "She Works Hard for the Money" (especially Dot and Susan)

The Notorious B.I.G. featuring Puff Daddy & Mase, "Mo Money Mo Problems" (What Grier needs to realize)

Pet Shop Boys, "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)"

Puff Daddy & the Family, "It's All About the Benjamins"

Pink Floyd, "Money"

Dire Straits, "Money for Nothing" (What you get here in High Point)

Barenaked Ladies, "If I Had $1000000" (Well, even if we don't, we can just ask the commissioners for it.)

The Kingsmen, "Money"

Steve Miller Band, "Take the Money & Run" (What they'll do with any raise they get.)

I really like David's idea about the 2006 election cycle.

Then again Slak had some interesting ideas too.

I think we all need our boom boxes at each meeting and start playing past speeches that were awesome. Personally, I'm getting a new cell phone with camera - that could be lots of fun too.

We could also play "All you need is love" - then they won't need any money; or "Imagine" - "Imagine no possessions, it's easy if you try...."

And can someone tell me WHY does Joe S always get to go last? Maybe someone else wants a turn to go last.

Personally, I wouldn't be very comfortable with having school board "jobs" that are highly rewarding. People should choose to run for these positions because they feel a need to give something to the schools and communities. A small stipend is appropriate to help cover expenses, but the day we make these positions rewarding in terms of money, you will start getting people runing for the job for the wrong reasons. Let's just leave it like it is. Many people serve on school boards that have other jobs and find the time and energy to devote to this job as well.

I disagree with Dave Hoggard's contention that adjusting the compensation upward will allow everyday citizens to run for the board, whereas they can't now because of the compensation. How much would the compensation have to be increased to make people want to do that, if they don't want to already? No, I don't think that people do this job for the money, they do it because they care about children and the schools. At least, they should.

Teddy,

You have opened our eyes once again with your wisdom.

How many every day citizens dedicate their time freely to helping kids and schools by being involved in what is going on in the community or simply volunteering of their time?

YOU ARE RIGHT. A person must be in it for the right reason and that is to help children and education.

Gas and reasonable expenses should be reimbursed and I stress the word "reasonable". Gas should be reimbursed for out of area meetings - say Raleigh and D.C. but just to go to a local meeting? These are known as local commuting miles. Concerned citizens do that always. Just count the school board meetings some people have gone to.

And Teddy, I left you a few questions regarding "It's Cool to Be Smart" on the other strand. My daughter could use a car next year. See other strand please.

Don't know about you guys, but I work at my real job about 50 hrs per week (self-employed), my volunteer hours across all causes run maybe another 8 or 10. Then there's kids, housework, socializing, etc that fill in the balance of my waking hours.

If I. or someone in a similar position, were to serve on the School Board, were do you think the extra hours would, or should, come from? Expecially in light of the fact that many Board functions are during the middle of the work day.

My point is that a person should have some expectation that they will at least not lose a bunch of money through service on such a time-sucker.

Some sacrifice is expected, financial hardship... quite another. $500 per month is woefully inadequate.

Mr. Hoggard,

I don't get the connection that you are making on this issue. I understand that you work at your real job for 50 hours per week and another 10 in volunteer causes. Now, how does that fact leads us to the need for greater compensation for school board members? If your argument was based upon a member having to reallocate some of their volunteer time, and that was a burden, I could understand your logic. But, I don't see how increasing the compensation by a nominal amount of money suddenly enables a person to serve on the school board. Having the hours in the week to devote to the job is certainly a serious concern, but it shouldn't be alleviated by money. If you devote 10 hours per week to volunteer work, I am sure that you are not getting paid for that, so why should serving your community in this capacity be any different? If you are wishing to serve the community as a member of the school board, then it is a different form of community service. a reasonable stipend to cover your expenses is fine, but it shouldn't become a "paying" job. If someone wants to serve on the school board to produce income, then they are doing this for the wrong reasons.

Teddy,
You are right again. The school board position should not be a primary source of income job...it is a means of serving the community. Making it a "real" paying job will attract people for the wrong reasons.

Thank you Teddy,

As I stated somewhere else, I can name MANY a fine person that gives MANY hours per month to children and receive NOT A CENT. In fact, the reward for this type of work is priceless.

I agree that Hogg had no point in his post saying that basically his day is full but given a large "stipend" he could find more time? What? So more money equates to more hours in the day? WHA???

Some of our finest in the community are volunteers. I suggest any of you go to a boy scout meeting--VOLUNTEERS, better yet, go to a CAMPOUT!--which is done MONTHLY and a WEEK or TWO in the summer. Do you think these leaders are getting a "stipends" or "reimbursed" for their time?

I'm sick of MONEY being the end-all, quick-fix solution to any problem relating to our school and administration.

I know Hoggard, you're going to be running for city council, you want to pay your bills just like everyone else. I hope that your reasons for running for public office are NOT just to have another income.

Really, our children deserve better than worrying about how much our hard-working board members get paid.

I'd like to take the OPPOSITE view, let's pay them NOTHING--I SERIOUSLY think that we'd see a totally DIFFERENT caliber of people with different values and goals.

I believe there is a big difference between what you and I may consider to be a "reasonable/large stipend."

If I decide to run again, I can assure you that it will not be for the money. But I sincerely believe that Greensboro and Guilford County should take a close look at how we compensate our public officials. We should, at a minimum, bring stipends up to par with other cities and counties our size and that is currently not the case. And the reason we have not for over a decade is the vitriol that many demonstrate here on this weblog.

My point could have been clearer about the hours in a day. My point was, of course, that something will have to give in order for someone to serve. Generally, it is in the amount of time expended on producing an income to feed one's family. You can confirm that fact by asking your elected officials the question if you know any of them well enough to have such a conversation.

I take that some of you have the position that a public servant is expected to sacrifice both time AND money while in service as an elected official. And I agree with that position. The question is, how much sacrificing of both should we expect.

As an example, if a person is making $3,000 in her job per month, and the demands of office cause her to lose $1000 of that income per month, it is OK with you to compensate with $500? My point is, in the real world, that is just not an option for many people who would otherwise consider running for office. Good people. (People who have a grasp of the true demands of holding office)

I agree the stipend amount should not be the deciding factor for those who choose to run for office. And I will venture to say it is not in the top ten reasons for true community minded people who have the courage to run and not just sit around and snipe at those who do.

However, if you want the best and brightest leaders, we should at least be fair about it and deliberate the issue without prejudice to those who currently hold the positions as seems to be happening here in many cases.

"We should, at a minimum, bring stipends up to par with other cities and counties our size .....However, if you want the best and brightest leaders, we should at least be fair about it"--Hoggard.

So Mr. Hoggard, are you saying that our neighboring cities and counties have the best and brightest leaders because their stipends are up to par? I'm LOL.

Let's ask the counties and cities that pay their public officials more, if they are satisified with their performance. I guarantee that they have the same problems that we have here. MONEY will not change that.

""And I will venture to say it is not in the top ten reasons for true community minded people who have the courage to run and not just sit around and snipe at those who do. ""

If there are ten reasons above MONEY, for someone to run for office, then I wouldn't think a "true community minded person" would even care about the salary.

Also, I don't agree with your assesment that "the demands of public office " subtracts from your regular monthly income. If one cannot maintain both positions, then they can CHOOSE to cut back their regular job hours, OR they can CHOOSE NOT to run for public office.

Also, since "other cities and counties" pay so well, why don't you move there and run for a council seat? I bet you'd see that more MONEY does not equal a better councilperson.

Hoggard,

One last thought...

It's funny how we've had decisions over here about the choice plan, Grier, board members, the "programs" that get shoved down our throats, the programs that get taken away, Title 1 woes....and not a single comment from you until the issue of money for public officials comes up.

Shame on you.

Stop,

You must be new around here.

Comparing teacher choice to student choice might be a bit off the mark...but the excellent observation of students wanting to learn and others being disruptive because a teacher can't control a classroom was on the mark.

Instead of offering a measly 5 to 7 percent incentive - do the math - they should have 1. offered 15 to 20% or even better offered smaller classrooms to the students. Teachers would prefer a smaller class to more pay. But them the High Point plan refuted that and instead of smaller hiugher quality classrom environments to lure kids to Andrews..we have performing arts to lure them away...
Phd Grier...Piled Higher and Deeper Grier

Elections are just around the corner, anyone running to replace Duncan, Sharpe or others, let me know when you sign up in February 2006, I'd love to help in your campaign.