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This is a great question! Don't we currently let other college grads teach while they are taking courses? (getting their teachers certificate).. I don't remember what it's called-- crossover or something like that. Why not let these teachers teach for one year, while they are taking the tests/qualifing under our system. Maybe they should get some credit for every year that they taught in another state. We certainly need to figure out how to use transferred teachers. Many teachers are women that follow their husbands careers and want to work in their field when they move from state to state.

Debora,

You're thinking "lateral entry." Those are people who have a degree in something, decide they want to become a teacher, and get the final training while they are teaching. They have a couple of years to finish that training while still teaching, although that will change under No Child Left Behind and they'll have to have all the work done before they teach, I believe.

I'm pretty sure that out-of-state teachers right now get time to take the Praxis test and obtain their certification. The point of the amendment would be that out-of-state teachers could avoid the existing certification requirements because they would automatically be considered qualified if they are certified/licensed in another state.

What Lee and Willoughby are arguing is that other states' licensing requirements might not be as strong as North Carolina's. They're worried that, in trying to fill classrooms in a hurry, the state won't be ensuring that the best teachers are hired.

I wonder if there's a compromise?

Any former out-of-state teachers now working in North Carolina out there reading the Chalkboard? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

It strikes me as odd that Lee and Willoughby would be against this change, given the acute teacher shortage the state is facing.

According to a report released last year, North Carolina needs 10,000 new teachers annually, but the state's colleges only produce about 3,100.

I would imagine that teacher licensing requirements aren't that much different across the country. And don't forget: just because a teacher is licensed doesn't mean they are guaranteed a job. They still would have to go through an application process, just like any other employee. If an out-of-state teacher is deemed lacking, they simply won't be offered a job.

Supporters say this legislation simply streamlines the process and cuts out a lot of the red tape.

Getting quality teachers into classrooms is vital, but I'm not sure state oversight is how you achieve that. It's been my observation that quality control is best administered from the principal's office, not Raleigh.

Lateral enrty! Thanks Jennifer, had one of those moments when my mind went blank. Not sure about how each state qualified teachers, and I know that there is a shortage, the real problem in my mind is that many people are licensed but aren't really 'qualified' (good) teachers. So many good teachers are leaving the field for many reasons! Low pay, low respect, high crime, no support from admin. and parents etc, etc. I hope there is a good compromise, so that we can get those people in the schools!

When a state continues to bring up the bottom in educational rankings, I laugh at the debate that NC's teachers are more "highly qualified" than other states. And that North Carolina has such "stringent guidelines".

They should be thankful that teachers from out-of-state even want to work here. First of all they are taking a cut in pay, especially if they are coming from a Northern state. And secondly, they are coming to a state that underperforms in almost all areas academically.

I say that we should welcome ANY teacher with a teaching license. If we can take ANY person with ANY degree and quickly "lateralize" them, and feel that they are qualified "highly" then those with a specific teaching degree should not be turned away just because their license is from another state.

Look to the medical profession for an example. Most states have a "compact" with other states as to the transfer of licenses. Those states NOT in the "compact" just require that an applicant submit their original medical license, a fee, and after a verification period, they are granted a license in the new state. And in the meantime, a temporary license is almost always granted until the official license is completed.

This state is so backwards when it comes to common sense in education. Here we are in the midst of a teacher shortage and our state board thinks it can be picky?

The notion that North Carolina "brings up the bottom" in education rankings is a common misperception that's been around since I was in elementary school. But it's simply not true - it probably wasn't true when I was a kid and it certainly isn't true now.

The best state-to-state comparison is the National Assessment of Educational Progress. It is a series of tests given to a cross-section of students from all across the country and it is the offical measuring stick used by the U.S. Department of Education. The tests are given in fourth and eighth grades.

On the most recent batch of NAEP scores, North Carolina had the second-highest fourth-grade math scores in the country. Only New Hampshire scored higher and they did so by a single point.

North Carolina finished 18th in the country in eighth-grade math.

As for reading, the Tarheel State was 19th in fourth-grade reading and 31st in eighth-grade reading.

In no way do these scores indicate a bottom-of-the-barrel performance. However, I understand your point about the state being picky during at teacher shortage.

Bruce,

Rah, rah, rah....there you go again, bragging about our fabulous achievements. So, our 8th graders rank 31st in reading? That's what, the TOP of the barrel??

And where do we lose them? If in 4th grade, they rank 19th in reading, (nothing to brag about there, either) how is it that we lose so much ability by the 8th grade?

Are our schools taking smarts away in the 5th, 6th, and 7th grades?

Bruce,

From which "NAEP" did you receive your data? There are several NAEP assessments. For the MAIN NAEP assessment, representative students are selected from grades 4, 8, and 12 in public and NON-PUBLIC schools.

For the state NAEP assessments in reading, mathematics, science, and writing, students are selected from grades 4 and 8 in public schools only.

And for the long-term trend assessments report results are taken from public and NON-PUBLIC schools.

Also, concerning students with a disability, (SD) and students limited in the English language (LEP), they can be excluded from the test! "The decision to exclude SD and/or LEP students is made by local schools." This quote is taken directly from NAEP's website.

So really, how valid are these results? Are we comparing apples to oranges?

Also, subject-matter achievement is reported in two ways--Scale scores AND Achievement levels. Achievement levels categorize student achievement as Basic, Proficient, and Advanced. From which group did you pull you statistics?

I would say that you are creatively interpreting these results to give your "Tarheel" state an advantage.

Possibly you are biased and since you've had to hear that "bottom of the barrel" analogy since childhood, possibly it has caused you to become a little defensive?

And why do you think that is? Why, since your childhood and still today, do others have the impression that North Carolina consistently performs at the "bottom of the barrel?" Could it be because it's true?

And one last quote taken directly from the NAEP website:

"In most schools, only a small portion of the total grade enrollment is selected to take the assessment and these students may not reliably or validly represent the total school population."

This assessment tool that you regard as the end-all supporter of how well North Carolina is doing in academics, is a CONGRESSIONALLY MANDATED project of the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) within the U.S. Department of Education. I'm sorry to say that I don't trust this department to create and assessment tool. I just cannot be as optimistic as you.

In an unrelated matter, many posts ago, you acknowledged that you live in the Southwest School district (correction--former Southwest district). From your address in the phone book, you are actually in the Jamestown Elem.-Jamestown Middle-Ragsdale High school district. You wouldn't lie would you? Or have you moved? I don't care to know your specific address, but it gives the impression that you are lying.

As the education reporter, I think you should be open about just exactly what district it is that you live. I would hope that you aren't trying to give the impression that you live in a controversial area just to get cozy with those living the High Point dilemma.

Take care,

This is in response to Jennifer's request.

I moved here with my husband in 1999. I was a teacher in Texas at the time and felt pretty good about my accomplishments. I had an undergrad degree from Texas Tech(Magna Cum Laude) and five very successful years in 3rd grade. My students had consistantly scored well on state assessments and I thought I could teach anywhere. Needless to say, I was shocked to find out that I had to take the Praxis to get my NC certification/license. I spent a few weeks studying and passed with flying colors. Other than the expenses and the time I spent studying, it was no big deal.

I think what concerns me is what former posts have stated "with the need for teachers, why make it even more difficult to get them here?" I agree that the standards are the basically the same across the U.S.

Teaching is an art, it really isn't something you can learn from a textbook. Therefore, when administrators are looking for candidates, they don't really look at the qualifications, they "listen" and they try to get a feel for the real person who is sitting there.

Keep in mind, these men and women are going to be spending eight and a half hours a day with the students, administrators want to know that they can perform in the classroom not on a test.

Texas,

I agree with you 100% - you either "got it" or "you don't". It is more than an art; it is a calling or a "gift". Some people can connect with kids and you KNOW when you are making that connection. It is a very wonderful and rewarding moment. Others will just recite textbook mumbo/jumbo, not get it across ever and bore a class to death.

We all have had those kinds of teachers at one time or another; so have our kids.

I would prefer that my child has a teacher who is not only competent but loves kids and loves to teach.

Barbara Ann

Texas teacher,

Your statement, "Therefore, when administrators are looking for candidates, they don't really look at the qualifications, they "listen" and they try to get a feel for the real person who is sitting there."

You must be talking about Texas administrators? Surely you have lived here long enough to know that Guilford County administrators don't "listen" to anything. If you have a pulse, and a teaching certificate, you get hired in Guilford county. They can't even find enough people with those two qualifications.

I would just be happy if my child HAD a teacher and not sub after sub after sub...or an ex-convict.

I think the state board could better spend their time by figuring out better ways to incorporate more strigent background checks.

This hype about keeping standards, "high" is a crock and if the standards are so "high" why are they failing our kids?

Barbara Ann,

I agree, teaching is a calling, and those who hear the call possess a gift. Guilford County administrators are not very inviting to that population. In fact, this administration and the way that they tie the hands of the teachers are doing a great job of running these special teachers off.

Great to hear from you, Texas teacher. Glad to have you teaching here in Guilford County.

And you are right - any newly-hired teacher is going to have to go through an interview process with a principal, in addition to meeting any licensure requirements.

And, no, educator (if that is, indeed, your real name), I didn't lie to anyone.

I asked the central office folks and they told me I was in the Southwest/former Southwest district. It's a moot point because I don't have any children in school.

And I'm not exactly sure why I would want to "cozy up" with any particular group of parents, since it's my job to cover ALL of the county's schools, no matter where I live. I don't get to take sides in any of these debates.

As for the NAEP, well, it's the official measuring stick of the Department of Education. President Bush swears by it. And it is a valid, unbiased, comparison of states.

I'm not "carefully interpreting" any results - these are the results as presented by the Department of Ed. If you don't believe me, check them out yourself:
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/profile.asp

Not to say that North Carolina's schools don't have work to do. But the notion that they rank near the bottom of the nation in academic achievement is, quite frankly, a myth, unsupported by fact.

One more thing: if you plug in that URL for the NAEP scores, you need to scroll down to the North Carolina results in the box marked "Select jurisdiction."

to Another Teacher,

You are so right. The great teachers are leaving. It is a sad state of affairs. I have heard stories after stories of kids not having a Math teacher or Language teacher. How do you find a sub to teach a higher math or foreign language when the class never even was started with an actual qualified, certified teacher? Who does the lesson plan for the sub? What would you use for a lesson plan?

My daughter experienced this with a new teacher first semester who had never taught before. Luckily, my daughter can read a textbook and teach herself the majority of the time. But it sure would be nice to know she enjoyed the class and some interaction and exchange of ideas.

Barbara Ann

Bruce says:

"I asked the central office folks and they told me I was in the Southwest/former Southwest district. It's a moot point because I don't have any children in school."

Oh really Bruce?

It's a "moot" point? So you're saying that it doesn't matter that you've lied about what district you live in? You feel that you can lie about it because you don't have kids?? Is this what they're teaching in journalism school these days? Were you absent the day that they taught about ethical responsibilities?

I am VERY offended that you claim to live in the Southwest district, and I do NOT buy the rationale that the "central office folks" gave you the wrong information.

What other information have you misrepresented?

How long were you going to keep up the farce?

Did you feel that you were lending a "sympathic" ear to those that REALLY live in the SW district?

Did you get more inside information than you would have as a "reporter from the Ragsdale district"??

Is this how the N&R goes about getting information from the community?

Do you just go home each night to your house in the RAGSDALE district and LAUGH that your little plan lasted another day?

Do you feel even ONE little ounce of guilt???

You cannot be trusted now. And I'm sure the central office doesn't appreciate being used as the scapegoat. Who did you talk to there? When? Why not do a story about how the Central Office gives out erroneous information?

You have ZERO credibility.

SHAME ON YOU!!

Hey, why don't you pretend that you have a child in the VSN program, then you could get cozy with those ANGRY parents! That would make for AWESOME reading!

Or, pretend you're Edward R. Morrow and start advocating that the new school in the NW district be named after you!--or maybe you live there too?

You can be anything you want to be! By the way, where did you go to journalism school?--oh, never mind, I'm sure I won't get the truth.

I hope your house is up for sale and you are looking to relocate in the "Choice Plan" district. If not, you need to resign.

Nothing is so ugly as a blantant lie.

I agree with you on the main issue of the topic. I remember, long time ago, Jack London said something like ?Everything positive has a negative side; everything negative has a positive side.? I also find it interesting to see different points of views and learn useful things from the discussion.

Posted by: Richard Hill at May 6, 2005 08:59 AM