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Jen,

Just a quick answer - I would think people would want to keep them if they were indeed world class; competent teachers could be found; and above all it would be a true magnet program and a student could CHOOSE to participate if he did not desire a traditional education without all the bells and whistles. The choice would be a traditional education with a strong curriculum in a school where you are not put on a bus for one hour plus OR a true magnet in GUARANTEEED in the choice of your field; not an art student to computer classes; a computer kid to international studies or an international studies kid to art.

The criteria of true choice and a true magnet with a traditional home school guaranteed like the rest of the county would be the only way this would work. True magnet schools are provided in the rest of Guilford County to establish economic diversity; why is it only being FORCED with long bus rides to the children of High Point and Jamestown Areas?

The end. On to the next survey.

I have no problems with magnet schools provided they are not used as a tool to attract middle to upperclass students to schools located in low income areas as they are in Guilford County. Magnet schools in Guilford Coutny are used to raise avearge scores for schools that are in trouble versus addressing the root causes and helping those students who need help. It's the lazy way out. Those who need help are no better off, just hidden by the numbers.

In respect to all the special schools for those "who have trouble learning in a traditional environment" the school board is doing these students a great disservice. Just like the California experiment with schools where Spanish was the primary language, the schools are not preparing these students for the real world. Like it or not when they get out of school they have to learn how to get along in "traditional environments - ie the work place or college" or they will end up flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Granted a few will end up in business for themselves but the majority are being set up for failure. Again Grier and the school board are taking the lazy way out

Jennifer,

Major correction here to your new post. The HP High Schools are NOT magnet schools. 1. They are not listed in the magnet brochure put out by GCS in the N & R. 2. The NC Dept. of Education lists them as "regular schools" 3. See Teddy Ballgame's recent post on another strand - he has supplied an email by a person in charge of this at GCS who states in writing that the 3 high schools are not magnet schools.

Can you please correct the last part of your post. Now on to the survey.

CUT & PASTE OF TEDDY B'S FROM OTHER STRAND REGARDING "MAGNETS":

Bruce,

You may not feel that there is a clear-cut difference between magnet schools and schools of choice, but GCS sure believes there is, and I guess if they think there is a difference, then there is a difference. Following you will see some quotes from an email from Amy Holcome, Director of Federal Programs, GCS:

"The High Point Choice Plan schools are not magnet schools. The News & Record donates a Magnet School Program Guide to us every year. Because the HP Choice schools are not magnets, we do not include them in this supplement. Additionally, the deadline for applying to the HP choice schools has passed so it would not be advantageous to list those at this point."

" There is some confusion over the term ?magnet.? The High Point Choice Schools are classified as ?choice programs,? and are not federally funded as are magnet programs. Magnet schools are attended through application. Choice Schools are, as you know, attended through a whole different process."

So, does Amy Holcomb not know what she is talking about? She is the Director of Federal Programs for GCS. She appears to be very specific that there is a difference. If you can help us understand where the ambiguity is, it would be appreciated. GCS is handling the application process differently for the Choice Schools in High Point, so there is a clear-cut difference here. Ronda is right.

Posted by: Teddy Ballgame at April 12, 2005 01:42 PM

Teddy,

What I am saying is there are mixed messages coming from GCS.

The "magnet schools = federal funding" definition doesn't always hold true. Morehead Elementary is and always has been classified as a "magnet school." Same thing with Jones Elementary. Read the descriptions of either school and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Neither receives federal magnet money for their programs. Both programs have been in existence for 15+ years. GCS didn't get its first magnet grant until around 2002.

Posted by: bruce buchanan at April 12, 2005 02:18 PM

Bruce,

So, what I think that we are saying is that GCS uses it's terminology and semantics to its own advantage, where it chooses to do so, ust like so many other things. It is choosing to not call the High Point schools magnets, so they can handle the application process differently. It's all about GCS controlling students and using them like pawns on a chess board, as they need to do to achieve its own goals. Which, by the way, have nothing to do with educating children.

Posted by: Teddy Ballgame at April 12, 2005 03:11 PM

Barbara Ann,

Reread my post. You must have missed or misunderstood my explanation of magnet for the purposes of this survey.

I am using magnet to encompass the elementary and middle magnet programs and the high school-level programs that are considered "option" or "choice" schools.

The High Point high schools fall under the latter part.

Ditto to everything Barbara Ann said. She is able to put into words what MANY parents are feeling.
A TRUE magnet program with TRUE CHOICE is probably a good thing for many students but I would NEVER CHOOSE to put my children on a bus that requires commutes over 1 hour each way. As an adult, I would not want to commute over 1 hour one-way to a job so what makes GCSB think children should be subjected to long hours of commuting?

ref. Lisa's comment - Weaver comes to mind - if people in High Point send their child to Weaver, they are making the decision to put them on that long bus ride; drive them; or car pool. My neighbor's kid goes to Aycock and loves it. They made that decision to put her on that long bus ride; they were not forced. Incidentally, the Aycock neighbor has been trying to sell her house to move closer to Aycock because it is such a treck. No luck so far. Wonder why?

Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer,

I did rereard your post. You cannot just ask us to "imagine" the word "magnet" to truly encompass the HP "Choice" plan because it is not a choice; it is not a magnet. It is forced busing under the guise a magnet like program. GCS themselves have said they are not magnets. It is based on "Controlled/choice". Sorry, Teddy's cut & paste of GCS email appeared about the same time you started this new survey.

You really need to reword it to say something like
pretend that the HP "Choice Plan" consists of three genuine magnet programs such as the arts, technology and IB program with certified, trained teachers in place in each of their particular fields, and adequate funding for equipment, etc. where you get dibs at choosing one of these fields. If you do not get into your desired magnet you will be guaranteed a traditional education like the rest of the county and not be forced on a long, hot bus ride across town to another program of which you have no desire to participate. Something like that, only shorter.

Per your statement "often called options or choice schools".....HP high shcools owuld fall under this because.....WRONG - kids do not have an option; they must fill out a lottery application, etc. The difference is that "choice" schools in other areas of the country are still guaranteed a seat in their neighborhood or traditional school if they do not get in the choice they desire. Not so here; there is no"home" school.

This survey will not fly unless you can reword the part about HP being "choice". By the way, you forgot to put the quotations marks around "choice" for HP high schools. Don't forget Susan Mendenhall at the Ray Collier forum referred to this as the "Random Assignment Plan" - you cannot have "choice" and "random" at the same time.

I rest my case.

It has recently come to my attention that High Point Central does not have a full time Orchestra similar to Southwest Middle and Southwest High School. What is that all about? How is my child supposed to improve her musical skills 9 weeks a semester or is it per school year?

If a $5 car magnet is fetching over $100 on Ebay does anyone have an idea of how much a slightly used violin that my daughter may not be able to use all the time thanks to Dr. Grier may bring?

In all seriousness I would appreciate a clarification about the music program and lack of one at HP Central.

I have visions of a marching band at the end of certain movie that has already been discussed at length on this site.

Buckmtn,

I'm sorry that I cannot answer the orchestra question for you. I do have one, very well used, Terry Grier magnet that I would be willing to give to you for free. Slap it on the violin, THEN list it on EBAY. That'll be a sure bid-getter.

Good luck. Seriously, music education is very important. Maybe if you could change your income level and start receiving free lunches, then go back in the lottery, maybe your child can go to that world-class Arts High School over there in High Point.

Rich:

Thanks for the idea, while I'll bet you there aren't many "fiddles with yellow and black markings" on them in these parts. Talk about diversity, I could stack a few bales of straw in the front yard, put the sofa and recliner out there, and it would be just like an episode of Hee-Haw.

Oh, wait a minute, that isn't the type of diversity the School Board has in mind, is it? That's too bad I was hoping everyone could come over, bring their Banjos, and I would have the theme from Deliverance right there at the house.

In all seriousness, the sad part is that if 149 are going to be taken out of SW each year, that will be 596 kids after 4 years. Conversely it means 596 other kids who have ridden a bus for hours on end will be there I don't know if I want my daughter in an environment with that many unhappy people.

I guess the bigger global question is how many teachers are going to remain at SW when it is turned into a zoo?

Explain your comment, How many teachers are going to remain at SW when it is turned into a zoo? I am not sure exactly what you mean by this statement and would like to hear a further explanation.

Thanks,

Sandy

Sandy,

Since buckmtn seems to be unavailable right now, I'll take a shot at answering your question. I looked in Webster's to see what it says about a zoo, and this is what it said:

"it's a zoo"

"Also, what a zoo. This is a place or situation of confusion and/or disorder."

With all that is happening to destroy Southwest as a viable school, this definition seems to fit the bill in describing Southwest in a few years. I wouldn't think that many teachers would want to practice their trade in a "zoo".

Thanks Teddy I owe you one.

Sandy, bascially that's all I have to say about a zoo. I didn't mean anything slanderous towards anyone, just an observation of where I believe the direction of this school is heading.

Jennifer

What about the possible middle college at the mall? Where are they going to put 100 students? These would be high risk students who would need small class sizes. Also where are they planning to get jobs for them. It doesn't seem that there would be that many jobs available during the weekday in that area.

This just doesn't seem like it would work there. It may work at a place like Mall of America, but Oak Hollow Mall is not going to donate a lot of space if they can lease it. Also what is going to happen if there are problems with the students and the mall decides they no longer want the program there. I can forsee many potential problems with students wandering the mall instead of the school halls.

AT the BOE meeting Dr Grier said they are hoping for 3500 sq ft, and have identified at 2700 space that has never been leased. Most malls have plenty of available space. He also said that he is hoping that the mall will pay for the utilities and they are getting donations to renovate the space. Hoping for 4 classrooms, with half going in the morning and half in the afternoon. Work would be in mall stores and surrounding areas. He also "sees this" as a possible place for evening ESOL classes for parents or possible computer classes. This is not an endorement, so now one jump on me; I am just telling what I learned at the meeting.

Debora,

I still want to know what was wrong with the old Tomilnson building?

So what is turning SW into a "zoo"? Is it the fact that more of the kids normally slotted for Andrews are being sent to SW? That's the inference I drew from your comment. You say you are not being slanderous but exactly what do you mean then? Do you want to keep all of those "zoo" like kids at Andrews and thus keep SW a "viable" school? Does Andrews not deserve the chance to be a "viable" school? Why is it fair in your eyes that SW be the viable school or i.e. favored school, and Andrews be left with the kids that your school obviously doesn't want.
Correct me if my inferences are wrong but clarify your point about how and why SW is turning into a zoo!

I don't know anything about the old Tomilinson building? Can you inform me?

Also- I would hope the term zoo was used as a reference to behavior- not color of a students skin. I don't have a dog in this race so to speak, but the real problem is that Andrews problems should be addressed, not covered up. If only 78 kids out of 1300+ picked Andrews (even with the 'world-class' tech program) that should tell everyone that problems are not being fixed.

On the situation of putting children together in a school that don't know each other-that in and of itself can cause problems. I believe that is the major problem with the transition of 6th and 9th graders. At my son's school there are 400 6th graders, 200 from one school, 100 from a 2nd school and 100 from a third school. In my son's homeroom he knew 4 kids (and he comes from the largest school)--- Each school has a different standard of behavior in the 5th grade; put 400 kids together and obviously there are alot of adjustments. My guess is the same happens at the HS, plus add tired kids that are on the bus for over 1 hr before getting to school, etc.

Debora,

The real problem at Andrews is the high proportion of needy kids that were redistricted there in 1999. Every long term rteacher (of the few that are left) have told me that this is when the problems at Andrews started. Teachers are overwhelmed with the high number of kids that do not value or appreciate a high school education like they should. There are kids in
the CP classes at Andrews that want to learn but the teachers are too busy dealing with the problem kids. To me, spreading these kids among all three high schools will provide a more balanced classroom in which the problem kids will be the minority instead of the majority. None of the three schools will have an advantage in the student makeup with this plan. Will it help the kids that do not come to school to learn? No, but I don't know what can be done to help these kids.

I do feel sorry for the kids that live very close to their districted school and did not get their choice. No, I do not think they fixed all the problems at Andrews. I do know that the demographic changes that were made to Andrews with the 1999 redistricting were not fair to the good students, families, and teachers of Andrews. Hopefully, the choice plan is addressing this.

Thanks,
Sandy

Can anybody tell me how many FRL kids that live in the former Andrews district were assigned to Andrews? To Southwest? To Central?

Sandy,
the school board must agree with you, because that is what they are trying to do, I however don't agree with that. If there are problem students at any school they need to be disciplied, punished, expelled, arrested etc. I for one don't think that the 'needy' children act out because they are poor. I think they act badly because they have no positive role models at home,no high expectations, no goals, etc! which are problems much larger than the school system can fix.
Of course that is just my opinion!

frl applicants for Andrews
56
frl for HP Central
82
frl for SW
130

NFRL applicants for Andrews
53
NFRL for HP Central
115
NFRL for SW
355

These numbers are total requested I have no idea how many were assigned

Debora,
I agree with you in regards to some children having a lack of role models at home. However, if you say that any school should just discipline kids that misbehave, then it should not matter what kids are sent to SW as as result of the choice plan. The teachers and adminstration there can just discipline any kid that misbehaves and the problem is solved. The teachers at SW can do that just as easily as the teachers at Andrews. What difference does it make what school they go do.

Teachers I spoke to at Andrews say that they don't want to be constantly discplining kids. They want to teach. They understand that some kids are more of a challenge than others and accept that as a part of the job but no teacher wants a constant diet of challenging kids.
I think this choice plan will help share the burden of problem kids among all three schools so no teacher at any school is so overwhelmed they get burnt out.

Thanks,
Sandy

Why not remove all "problem kids" (Sandy's words) and put them in their own school?

Sandy Allen:

Gamblin man has stated the solution. It is that simple.

I know of a child in kindergarten, KINDERGARTEN, who has been suspended more than three times this year. His mother wants him transferred to another class. The principal has stood firm and will not "put that problem on another teacher." He cusses, hits kids and has caused kids to bleed.

It is not fair what happened to Andrews in 1999. But the School Board caused that by placing empty seats there. SW kids are not the "cure all". I am sure many of these kids get bounced around enough from foster homes to step parents. Why can't someone just address the problem and help them instead of putting them on a long bus ride for mime and puppetry classes? There needs to be an Altnerative School a real solution.

Another radical idea - but maybe not - if Andrews is so bad and the majority are behavioral problems - make that the "Alternative School" - bring in all the other problem kids from all over High Point or further. You have a brick building in place. Look at all the costs savings. Then bus the kids who want to learn to Central and SW and keep those two schools strong. Dot's dream comes true - Central forges ahead as the strong school. Central folks get the "cream" they have been wanting all this time.

Why should the majority of SW kids be feeling all this heartache?

It wasn't fair what happened to you; but why do you want everyone else to feel this pain?

Sandy,

Thanks for clearing some things up about the choice plan. Many of us have been laboring under the wrong impression that the choice plan was implemented to improve education of students. We also were led to believe that the plan's goal was to get middle class kids from Southwest into Andrews and Central to help "learn 'em up". We were also led to believe that a goal of the program was to enhance the Southwest kids' development as whole people through mixing of the classes. And, there was a whole lot of other goals stated in support of the plan.

Now, you have revealed to us the real devious plot that was hatched by Terry Grier and the school board - spread out the "problem kids" over three schools, so that one school doesn't have to feel all of the pain. Thanks to you, we get it now. The choice plan was never about education, world class magnets, cultural and class diversity, etc. It was all about speading the problems around over three schools, so that they wouldn't be so obvious. Now, thanks to you Sandy, we understand what we are dealing with.

Having come to that epiphany, I, for one, don't accept this as a valid solution to Andrew's problem. If Andrews, unfortunately, has too many problem kids, then it is Terry Grier's responsibility to find a proper solution to the problem that doesn't destroy three schools and the educational opportunity of all of the kids in those schools. Terry Grier and the school board have obligations to every student in the district to make the learning environment as positive and safe as possible. Moving the problems around and "spreading them out" is not a solution that parents should tolerate.

Teddy,

HOMERUN!

"I can see clearly now the rain is gone."

"On a clear day you can see forever."

Just in that singing kind of mood. You have the best way of making us see the true picture.

Glad all the b.s. is finally out of the way!

Thank you!

Oops, forgot Ronda and Deborah's question re. Tomlinson Building. After answering that, I think Teddy has clarified the true agenda for us of the HP Fat Chance Plan and the Twilight Zone District.

Regarding Tomlinson Building - Ronda, GREAT question - What was wrong with the Tomlinson Building? Nothing in the minds of many.

Deborah - what I know - The Tomlinson Building is a separate building at Central High School. It used to be a Montessori School. A new Montessori School was opened - Triangle Lake - so the Tomlinson Building became empty. It is the opinion of many, many people that it was left open to create more seats for Central to bring more "Cream of the Crop" kids into that school - an old, old wish of Old High Point folks and their board reps.

Before the seats became open, An Alternative Solutions Proposal to address both overcrowding and diversity was presented to the board. Part of this proposal was to make the Tomlinson Building an Alternative School instead of having those kids scattered all over HP in trailers or to set up another Middle College. As usual, no one listened. The trailer kids got sent way across town on a long bus ride to Piscah Church Road SCALES Program. (Another subject for another day.) We were told they could not do a Middle College in the Tomlinson Building because it was not a "college". Now that brings another question to mind "Mall School" - that is not at a college site either. I guess this is a whole new invention.

After receiving research on Mall of America Mall School - it seems more like a Trade Type school than an Alternative School for those who may quit high school or be suspended.

I don't even think you can begin to compare Oak Hollow Mall to Mall of America.

Hope that helps on Tomlinson.

Thanks BA! I knew that someone could clear it up! Maybe it's time to 'revisit' that option. How can anyone say that a building already built shouldn't be utilized?

I think that the Tomlinson building currently houses the 9th grade students at Central.

So that is the 9th grade academy that we have heard about-- does that leave alot of room in the main buildings? Just wondering!

They are so full in the main building that classes are now being held in the basement. The school is NOT under capacity.

Thanks for the info-- I didn't know about the overcrowding-- so basically the only HS int he 'HP' area that isn't overcrowded is Andrews. It's the same old story, put seats where they aren't needed-- just worry about the overcrowding down the road somewhere!

Mel and Deb - both right.

Word is Central will be overcrowded as classes in the basement - but in many places this is quite exceptable. Also many feel Central is taking the "cream of the crop" students - academically - just a theory.

We will have to wait and see how that pans out.

One question for everyone to consider. If Southwest and Central are overcrowded, and Andrews is under-capacity, then why did the last round of the lottery send so many kids to Central and Southwest, and so few to Andrews? Does this make sense, or does Grier and the board have something else cooking? It just seems strange that they handled it in this manner this time.

I smell another additive to the choice plan stew.

It's call Ragsdale.

That could be. Seems like something is up, maybe they realize that Andrews problems need to be addressed first, before throwing more students in there. The small size could be that they are trying to do the 9th grade small classes- they are asking for more money for english and math classes to have only 20 students per class

Several possibilities and all of you may be on to something:

1. They wanted to give most SW kids their 2nd choice which most picked Central. Thinking that parents wouldn't complain so much.

2. They wanted to be sure they had the "cream" at Central.

3. Going for smaller classrooms at Andrews to truly try to help the school first before putting more kids in the mix.

4. Ragsdale - I heard some rumblings out there on that for those who live in Jamestown and currently go to Ragsdale - all rumor at this point - but it makes sense.

5. Maybe use part of Andrews for an Alternative School within the building - one floor only and secure that floor with more actual help and security

6. Maybe use part of Andrews for the Opportunity High School - tech/work program for kids who are older and still failing

The possibilities are endless. Keep listening - sooner or later the plot will thicken and be revealed.

Oops - just remembered the other one

Andrews Shopping Mall

The new shopping mall - ad some stores to the empty space and make it a mall

This is what GCS invites with children being bused excessively across the county. From the National News April 18, 2005:

Top News Printable View
Child Killed in Va. School Bus Crash
April 18, 2005 11:00 AM EDT
ARLINGTON, Va. - One child was killed and more than a dozen elementary school children injured Monday when their school bus collided head-on with a garbage truck at a busy intersection, authorities said.

The drivers of the bus and truck were hospitalized in critical condition, as was one of the children, said Chief Carol Sauliner of the Arlington County Fire Department. The other 13 children, ranging from kindergartners to fifth graders, received minor injuries and were taken to area hospitals.

Arlington County Police spokesman Matt Martin said the school bus apparently was trying to make a left turn when it was hit by the truck at 8:40 a.m. at the intersection of two major thoroughfares in this Washington, D.C. suburb.

Passengers on a Metrobus that came upon the scene helped pull children out of the bus.

"A lot of them were bleeding," said Metrobus passenger Willena Roney, 43, from Arlington, Va. "They were scared and upset."

The children were students at nearby Hoffman-Boston Elementary School. Arlington County schools spokeswoman Linda Erdos said counselors were dispatched to the school and the hospitals to work with students and families.

Parents, some in tears, rushed to the school after hearing reports of the accident and were met by police, school personnel and "much confusion," said Missy Jones, who went there to check on her second-grader, who was not involved in the accident.