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Chief Edd,

Taser guns, tear gas, flash/bangs, baseball bats,
Abu Grahib hoods, tiger cages, cat-o-9 tails, or even the old fashion " stocks ".. Yes go for it.
The Blacboard Jungle was only a 1955 movie with Glenn Ford, Sidney Poitier and Vic Morrow. Todays classrooms need something to bring about order and discipline other than the expensive racism workshops by Crossroads Ministries. Hogwaste !

I disagree with tasers on students in any county. (Although I can think of a few GCSB members who need a jolt for their behavior!) As far as partnering with the police and asking for students as well as the community to help curb violence I am all for it. Consequences and peer pressure are non-violent ways to deal with the problems in the school and to send the message that it will not be tolerated on school grounds.

Have you seen the size of a well developed high school football player or other athlete?
Fighting an old drunk is much easier than fighting one of these young high school guys, our police need the same options as tools on the schoolground as out in the public.
Or do we have to wait for an officer or student to get killed or seriously injured before we consider their needs to protect the other students and themselves?

I disagree with the use of tasers.

If we incorporate the use of such objects in our SCHOOLS,what exactly have we become as a society?
(After reading the first response, I am not so sure.)

Remember, gigantic football players or not, these are still children we are speaking about here. Would you want you child on the other in of a taser?

Corporal punishment can modify the behaviors, for a short period of time. Problem is, if the behavior is so bad that it warrants the use of a taser, someone needs to get to the bottom of what is going on with that kid!

Toby

I am a GCS teacher and I agree that violence has increased in our schools. Even so, I do not believe that Tasers are the solution. Many of the students that get in trouble have problems at home including violence. Using violence then as a means of control could do more to increase problems we have at our schools rather than decreasing them. If people really believe that Tasers are the solution, then every teacher should be given one.

If all the teachers get one, then every taxpayer in Guilford County gets one too, to use as necessary on School Board members and/or commissioners.

The only difference in a police officer fighting for his life with a 15 or 16 year old on the street (or fighting to save the life of a victim) and fighting for his life in a schoolyard is the location, not the danger.
Do you really think that location dictates how dangerous a person can act? Ever hear of a schoolyard shooting, like Columbine?
To tell our officers they can protect citizens only off a schoolyard but not on a schoolyard is ridiculous.
Give them the tools to do the job.

toby,

I don't know exactly how I feel about the use of tasers by school resource officers, but I do believe that such law enforcement officers responsible for maintaining order in school such as this do need some way of protecting themselves, as well as others. Teachers have been known to be attacked in these schools and injured badly by these "children".

You made a couple of comments about these students being children, but you should realize that we are talking about high school students here, and students at this age level could be dangerous. You made a comment about the behavior of the "chldren" at these schools. Do you realize what children attend these schools? The ones that attend there are troubled students, or they wouldn't be there in the first place. I agree that "someone needs to get to the bottom of what is going on with that kid", and I suspect that someone is trying to do just that. But, in the meantime, let's not put people charged with maintaining order in the school at a disadvantage, and not give them defensive tools that they might need; let's give them the same defensive tools as they need if they met that same troubled child on a dark street one night.

The way I see it is, does the parents of the "unruly one" even discipline the kid at home. When I was young there was no time out or corner standing. All I was allowed to do was to pick out my own switch, and it had better been a good one at that.If you raise your kids with honest discipline and respect I dont think that they will be a problem.

"The ones that attend these schools are troubled students, or wouldn't attend in the first place."

Not true! Alot of the children that attend places like SCORE and SCALE are there for multiple truancy and tardies. They are not violent offenders.

In my opinion, we can modify their behavior with the use of corporal punishment. But, what are we really teaching those kids? In truth, aren't we really just continuing the cycle of violence that most of the violent offenders are accustomed to?
We need to get to the source of their behaviors. For, the record, I don't think we are doing enough in the mental health area for these kids. If they have gotten to high school and are still considered dangerous, then all the system has done is hand them on to the next grade.

Go ahead and put tasers and other types of weaponery in the hands of SRO officers. But, guess what is going to happen. "Children" will get hurt. I can guarantee there will be the misuse and abuse of power somewhere and some "child" will be injured.

So Toby thinks that schools should be rearing children. And Toby doesn't want to hurt the children. I don't know your age Toby, but when I was in school the Principals had a paddle. And they used it. You better believe they "hurt" the children. But the children learned to NOT infringe upon the rights of those children who came prepared to learn.

In a perfect world, we could teach respect, discipline, obedience, ethics, manners, humility, etc. But today the schools are having a hard enough time teaching the basics.

You ask, "What are we really teaching these kids?" Well, we are teaching them that it doesn't matter what's going on at home, but AT SCHOOL, you follow the rules or there is a consequence. That's a lesson that won't hurt them.

This isn't thirty years ago.
Times have changed. The kids who are coming to school that "infringe" on the rights of others are more than likely getting their fill of pain and abuse at home. So, if we "hurt" them at school are we effectively demonstrating how to handle problems?
It is easy for Rich to espouse his ideals of what should be done to handle "children" that break the rules in school, but I wonder what he would do if his child were involved in a taser incident.

Toby and others,
What a difficult question. I wish we could solve all problems by counciling and assisting children. If these students with violence in their lives are indentified earlier maybe that could be! I'm not sure that is the case in a small but violent group of students. You read everyday about teenagers shooting each other, stabbings etc. I have no answers but it is obvious that violence in on the upswing. Is it fair to expect or assume that the violence will not take place inside of a school? (remember the terrible instances when it has) I must admit that this subject is not one that I have thought about before and I am not sure which side I will end up falling on- but I am enjoying the input from everyone!

Toby, you seem to think that children with a sad home-life should get a pity-party at school and any wrongdoings should be condoned because of their sad situation.

I too feel sorry for them. But if they are not learning consequences at home, then there's no better place to learn them than at school. Should we bottle-feed them at school so that when they're out in "real life" they are shocked to learn that adults have rules to follow?

And if my child were involved in a taser incident, I bet he wouldn't do again, whatever invited that taser to his butt! And possibly, this little incident would be a constant reminder to him that the consequence for adult crimes is more painful than the zap! of the taser.

Update to Crime Report above:

Another Purse Theft At SW High School last week.

WARNING:The school Bullies no longer want just your lunch money,they want all your cash and credit cards too.

I hope they find them and ZAP them!

Just to answer your comment about those incidents not making the newspaper.

Unfortunately, the types of crimes you refer to are so common that they really don't rise to the level of news. Otherwise, we'd do nothing but write about school crime.

We wrote a lot about violence at Andrews High School earlier this year because it had become so widespread at the school, with students getting arrested every few days for a while. And we wrote about the three high school principals who were hurt in student assaults this school year. These were high-profile incidents that had a lot of community interest.

But here's a sad fact: 52 Guilford County teachers or other school employees were assaulted by students in the 2003-04 school year, according to the state's annual school crime report. The report doesn't even include fights that don't rise to the felony level. We just don't have the time or the space to write about each incident.

However, this isn't a problem limited to the Guilford County Schools. The district's crime rate is virtually the same as the overall North Carolina public school crime rate. And several other urban districts - Durham, Cumberland Co., Wake Co. - have worse crime rates than GCS.

How sad Bruce! The numbers are not surprising, but are shocking that it happens all the time. A good article might be something about the total numbers and overall how to combat(tongue in cheek) the violence problem.

toby,

You asked rich what would happen if his child was involved in a taser event at school. The answer that you would get from many parents today is to sue the pants off the school and the law enforcement officer. But, I tell you, if it had happened when my children were growing up, I would have asked a lot of questions about what behavior led to that incident, and if my child did some of things that have been reported here, they would have feared the consequences at home much greater than what the school dealt out. You see, toby, this is the very reason why we have these problems, parents aren't willing to deal with their child's behavior problems, or they really don't care. And, I can assure you that none of my children would have been in a school such as that in the first place. You are right, this isn't thirty years ago. But, I can tell you that back then in the dark ages, parents felt that school was a safe place for their children. They certainly don't feel that way today. As a matter of fact, I have read that many experts have commented that schools now are one of the most dangerous places that children can be. So, we haven't made any progress, now have we?

And, when you quoted me: "The ones that attend these schools are troubled students, or wouldn't attend in the first place." I didn't say that they were attending that school because they were violent, but they are troubled. And, many times a troubled child will eventually lash out in any way they can, and sometimes it is violent. I don't advocate abusing children at school, but I do advocate taking the necessary actions to have a safe and orderly school environment. It's time to take back control of the schools and turn them back into what they are supposed to be, a safe place for learning, not just a place to detain children for several hours during the day.

Shocking! Taser guns being used on children.I can somewhat understand using them on violent teenagers. Is this going to lead to using them on first graders? It already has in some places. One of them being a six year old child dying after an official stunned them. What about epiletic or diabetic children? Safety issues aside, what about the hypocrisy of the laws made to define abuse?
On the subject of the school's rights to use physical force to subdue a troubled child. Are school's allowed to punch, kick, or use a weapon against the offensive child to bring them to a state of unconsciousness to stop the situation? Maybe if the child has a knife or gun surely it would be agreed to use what is needed to hinder the person.Would school authority figures ever abuse the use of tasers? What about a child talking back or simply not doing his class work? Are there other ways that would be more promising? Does a teacher have the right to hit or strike a student? If not, then why would using a taser be different? Does a parent have the right to use any weapon or object that would hurt the child in the same way a taser would? This does?t seem very logical compared to the laws they already have towards the disciplinary actions that can be used. I do want our school's to be safe and non-violent. Safe school for both students and teachers alike. School's have had paddles taken away and years later replaced them with tasers. Forgive me for thinking this does not make sense.

rich,

gosh,
you made such a compelling an intellectual argument that now I can completely see your side of things...

When children come from homes that have no one there to raise them and teach them right from wrong, it is the educators duty to beat them into submission. Or, as you so eloquently stated, give them a "painful zap." That sounds like it will do the job.

You are right Rich. Pain will prepare these kids for the real world. In my professional environment, when one of my peers are late for work or not prepared for a presentation my boss whips out his taser and teaches those guys a lesson they won't soon forget.

Forgive me for being so ignorant.

By the way... Will Iraqi schools have tasers in their new free democratic government? I guess they may need them more then the peaceful democratic countries. What an example we put forth.

Toby,

Since you feel that you know best how to teach right and wrong to these children that "have no one there to raise them" why don't you take them into your home?

It is NOT the school's responsiblity to raise children.

Pam,

Where exactly do you suppose tasers will fit into the character education program that IS a part of the curriculum?

I don't think it is our duty to raise children in the schools. But, I don't think it is our job to beat them into submission either.

And, for the record, I have taken a few kids into my home who have needed some direction. I have reached out and made a difference. It didn't take tasers, paddles, or brute force either.

My family has been involved in foster programs and I have been a mentor to several at risk youths in our area. What have YOU done?

To all - here are some things to think about:

April is Child Abuse Prevention Month

Keep in mind the word "child".

To many of the above discussions, I believe we were talking about teenager - many kids in our high schools are not children - they are 18 and older and big and strong and have assaulted adults.

If things get out of control and a principal or teacher are in physical danger and it is happening more and more, what do you suggest? What is the answer to protect oneself?

MAJOR CORRECTION - FYI - I have many, many teacher friends in elementary school. They said "character education - are we supposed to be teaching that? We have no materials; we haven't been told that? It is not a scheduled part of our day? A special class? Some of us have a poster on the wall - that's about it. I think I will call a friend to see if she has any materials, sounds like a good idea. But I had no idea we were doing anything."

Character ed begins at home. The teachers don't even know about this so don't be fulled by p.r. campaigns you read about in certain newspapers.

Meant to say "fooled" by pr campaigns last email - was getting a little late

Many people don't seem to realize the self control students must have to sit in a classroom in a group and learn. They don't see the problems at home so they blame teachers.

Students who speak out at will, don't stay in their seats, are disrespectful, or disrupt others concentration are problems.

Please don't think I'm saying every student or classroom has all these behaviors but I would expect some of them are most classrooms from Pre-K through 12th.

Teachers have to essentially rob learning time from students who are there to learn in order to try to control and possibly teach proper behavior to the few who daily destroy the necessary learning environment.

Just imagine how it takes the "spark" of excitement from those children who are on the verge of hearing something new and interesting when learning comes abruptly to a halt so the teacher can attend to someone who has no interest in being there.

It's just so sad.

This is not a good idea. That city is setting themselves up for failure. Take a look.

http://jerrylmcclough.blogspot.com/2005/04/amnesty-report-slams-taser-cites-103.html

Concerned,

You are so right and these disruptive kids should not be in the classroom. Period. The majority of the kids who want to learn ARE losing out. Is it fair to CONTINUALLY stop a class for one or two and sacrifice the education of 22?

It happens even in elementary school. This situation existed at Jamestown where I have subbed.

I saw kids who wanted to learn sit there with that look in their eye of constant frustration and hopelessness. These were great kids.

Even the kids who were disruptive had a chance if the problems of disruption would have been addressed. Some were basically good kids too, just extremely disruptive. They had issues and needed extra help that was not being provided in a tradtional setting or simply disruptive behavior that was being allowed continually.

I dread to think by the time these same kids get to high school or even middle school. What then?

By the time they are in high school, the mold has been set. It is too late, at least for a traditional classroom setting.

For the rest of the kids who want to learn and can't, you have failed them too.

As for tazurs, I think some of these posters missed the orginal article it said for "Resource Officers" to use them. If a teacher had them, a few roudy kids could take them and use them on the teacher. Oftentimes there have been situations where a teacher has been attacked or cornered by several kids - big "kids".

There was a teacher quoted in the Rhino several weeks ago after GCS had met to hear teachers' issues on discipline. He said he had tried to break up a fight and the kid butt headed him and broke his nose. The kids is still in school and everytime he sees the teacher he laughs. Now this should not be. Talk about humiliating. I would have to leave that profession if it were me.

We need to take our schools back and expect respect for principals and teachers and staff. It can be done but will take lots of time and it has to flow from the top down. This is not happening now. Right now, in many schools, kids know THEY control it. This is even at certain elementary schools.

Examples are "You can't take away my recess. It's the law. I have to have outside time once a day." Ahhhh "Gotcha today you had 40 minutes of PE. At some schools you do not have recess then as it is too much strain in one day." Score one for teacher.

I do think there needs to be a plan for emergency situations involving fights; drills like fire and tornado drills and back-up for resource officers. The problem is: Could you use a teacher for back-up, everyone is liable to get sued if you might just be trying to help OR get physically hurt.

The answer is remove problem kids to an Alternative Setting for Education. And personally, I don't think it is "the Mall" where they can hang out and be tempted to brouse and day dream. Just my opinion.

What do you all think of A Mall School at Oak Hollow Mall?

I think a school at the mall could be a great idea -- but not for the students that Grier wants to put there.

If he made it an early college he could probably fill it up. These kids could better afford to pay $6 a day for lunch in the Food Court, would be good candidates for the retail jobs at the mall after school, and other mall patrons would probably feel comfortable having them there.

I bet he could get 149 applicants the first week.

Sounds like a which came first the egg or the chicken, or when did you stop beating your wife type of question.

I want the officer to be trained to deal with common situations. The officer should be flexible enough to deal with a situation with the act it warrants. Even unarmed an officier could cause death and or severe injury. If an incident required deadly force I would like for the officer to consider other alternatives if he has the means to do so.

I am not interested in taking away alternatives but empowering an officer to his duty of protecting and serving the public. I doubt if anyone could come up with a solution to events before they happened without experience.

Ron,

ref. "a solution to events before they happen", as I mentioned the word "drills".

We have fire drills; tornado drills; lockdowns in case of situation like Columbine, or for an intruder, etc. Why not have a procedure, a plan, or some type of drills for when fights take place? It is a given that they do breakout in high schools and in middle schools. There are certain procedures in elementary schools that have to be used carefully for certain children to keep them from hurting others or themselves.

There was a fight over a month ago at SW supposedly involving "gangs". It came over the PA - all kids to report to their homeroom; all coaches to report to the commons. The kids could hear the commotion over the PA. Now maybe that is their procedure. I don't know.

But it would seem that a definite plan may help prevent serious injury.

Also we have had incidences at our high schools where the resource officers are not enough and the police have to be called. You know from the reports in the newspapers that teachers and principals have been assaulted and injured within the last 12 months. Surely there should be a plan in place to handle serious situations.

What have the non disruptive children and their parents say about possible solutions to stop these other children or teenagers that cause trouble? Are there any real gang related fights going on? What is with all these children now? Would it be that they only act out what they perceive on T.V., news, playstations or other games? Is our school system becoming full of bipolar and obnoxious children because of other parents? Where in the world are all the guidance counselors?

Correction on my first sentence in my last post before his one. What have the non disruptive children and their parents SAID(not say) about possible solutions to stop these other children or teenagers that cause trouble?

Adding to my previous comment. It appears that the school staff feel obligated to stop violence and fights on school property.

My next question is whether the staff is capable of doing so without endangering themselves? I am thinking in terms of high school students starting the violence.

Tactics of verbal defusing are effective but not 100% of the time. If physical restraint or even defense is required what teacher has the training? Does the Guilford County School system provide such training?

Is the student violence organized or random outburts of emotion? In any case, I expect this violence to increase not decrease. Schools are only one part of the solution, other parts of society need to act in implementing a solution.

Too concerned and confused. Yes we have gangs in our school - noted the Blood and the Cribs from what I hear. They have a word which I have heard is used at Central for gangs congregating. It is "community". So the schools must know somewhat of the problem.

Ron, you are right. It seems to me that good teachers would just naturally feel it is up to them to stop a fight. But I am not personally aware of any training that is done.

I do see in elementary school that oftentimes it is random outbursts of emotion and you let the child kick over the bookcase, etc. and fizzle out and call for help. Example a second grader grabbing scissors and chasing a teacher's assistant with them - you call for help. In teenagers, it is a different story. I guess it could be random or organized but many of these "kids" are much bigger and stronger than teachers.

Schools are only a tiny part of the solution. It starts at home; in the community; the environment. When you look at all the violence in movies; video; computer games and even in music; that this is seen as the "norm" what message do you expect kids to get.

correction to previous post - may be "Cribs" or "Crypt" - not sure - but have heard if from several parents

okay - final answer - The Blood and the Crips - thanks Google

Kids are coming home telling their parents of connections to these gangs that exist in some of our schools. So it depends on if you believe what our children hear and know that goes on in their schools.