News-Record.com

Several interesting facts here: If you are on block then the opportunity to take more AP/IB classes is built in. 2) "The Adelman report, other studies and interviews with hundreds of teachers and students over the last 20 years have convinced me that a student who works hard but struggles in an AP or IB course, and does poorly on the AP or IB test, is still better prepared for college than he would be if he were forced to take an easier course and test." This might be true, but colleges look at scores differently, and what happens to the student pushed into taking AP classes that does poorly? Do they then think college isn't for them?

As far as I can tell this report isn't deserving of all this attention. It certainly doesn't mean much to the people that understand this countys schools.

Does anyone know if the AP classes are accepted at all local and state supported schools? (if they pass the test)-- someone told me that most colleges only accept 2 (6 credits)classes even if you take more than that!

Bruce, Jennifer? Do you guys know?

Are Newsweek rankings also based on the number of AP courses taken vs the number of students graduating?

If the rankings are based on this then you could half a class of students taking 2 or more AP classes and the results would be the same for a school where every student took one AP class.

That would also support Debra's findings that block scheduling gives one school more opportunity to achieve this.

Although I don't Grimsley follows block scheduling and Grimsley led Guilford County Schools in the rankings.

Grimsley was probably the top because it is the only IB program other than Central. If the list is based on numbers of students in AP and IB courses, Grimsley would certainly be ahead of any other school. As an educator myself, I don't see the advantage (other than a cost savings to the school system) of block scheduling. There's no way you can cover in one semester what can be covered in a year. That statement comes from experience.

Newsweek proclaiming that county high schools are among the top 4% in the nation is valuable P.R. for the school system. It's important for a school system to be touted as good. Here's an article written by a CNN/Money writer about the importance of good schools. How does everyone feel about the Reassignment Plan's influence on North High Point/Jamestown when prospective homebuyers new to the area are told that it is not certain which high school their children will actually attend? Do you think that employers are steering their new employees away from High Point to Northwest Guilford or even to Forsyth County?

Does the neighborhood make the grade?

That old wisdom to buy where the schools are good still holds true, perhaps now more than ever.
April 4, 2005: 8:56 AM EDT
By Sarah Max, CNN/Money senior writer

SALEM, Ore. (CNN/Money) - Homebuying hits high season in the spring as parents of school-age children rush to time their move with summer break.

Among these buyers, student-to-teacher ratios and test scores are as essential as square footage and closet space, say agents. In fact, parents seem as determined as ever to get their kids in the best schools, and they're willing to pay a premium to do so.

"If they're relocating to the area, quality schools is the first thing out of their mouths," said Rachel Herbert with Coldwell Banker in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. "Right now all of our prices are up, but in areas where schools are rated "A" by the state, houses are selling faster and for more money."

Education is so important, say agents, that buyers without children should sit up and pay more attention to school.

"By going in areas where the schools are not as strong, you're essentially cutting out a potential group of buyers," , said RealEstate.com general manager Jeff Lyons.

In his hometown, Charlotte, N.C., houses in school zones with higher test scores sold for an average of 12 percent more than similar houses in areas with lower test scores, based on research by UCLA and Dartmouth for sales between 1994 and 2001. That discrepancy is likely to be even greater today.

In the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio, buyers might pay as much as 25 percent more for a house in a desirable school zone, according to Jill Rudler, a real estate agent with HER Real Living. "I've always looked for property in areas where the schools are improving," she said. "I'm willing to pay a little more in taxes to ensure that my investment is solid."

Some notable exceptions
While school rules in some markets, in adult communities, second home markets and luxury markets where buyers are likely to send their kids to private school public schools aren't as big a priority.

"The market is becoming segmented and I think it's going to continue," said Rudler. Empty nesters and retirees are moving out of their old neighborhoods to golf course communities or condos in more central locations.

They might be spending more on the house itself, but they're conscious of managing fixed costs over the long run. "They're specifically targeting areas where property taxes are lower and hence the schools are not as good."

The same is true in South Florida. "We are divided into the areas near the water and the suburbs," said Herbert, explaining that neighborhoods near the water attract more empty nesters, international buyers, and second or third homeowners. "Some of our most luxurious developments are not in the greatest school districts."

Ocean views might be more important than test scores in some markets, but real estate agents say that it's always prudent to ask about school quality, regardless of your price point.

In New York City, parents who could afford to send their children to private schools are still bent on buying into top public schools.

"I was just working with a family looking for property in the $5 million range," said Meris Blumstein, a real estate agent with the Corcoran Group. "They insisted on being in a particular school district. That was their first criterion."

"The private schools get harder and harder to get into," she explained. "If you're in a good public school at least you have that to fall back on."

Crash course on school quality

Even as more emphasis shifts to schools, real estate agents are shying away from handing out school stats or acting as school advisors. Many agents don't want to be held liable if buyers hinge a decision on school quality only to find out that a district is being rezoned or that last year's high test scores were just a fluke.

You may need to track down school report cards on your own.

Depending on where you live, statistics about local schools should be available from your local school district or your state. School data is also available online, for free, on such sites as GreatSchools.net and HomeGain.com.

Keep in mind that there are nuances within a city and school district, said Lyons. In fact, if you have school-age children, it's not a bad idea to visit the schools in person.

Local scuttlebutt might also factor into your decision.

"It is word of mouth to some degree," said Rudler. "A lot of buyers who come to town and they go where their employers tell them to go."

That may not be the most accurate way to measure a school, but reputation does count for something, at least when it comes to resale.

Dean Wormer,

You are very wise. I know where we moved from in Virginia, good schools were the top priority that determined the housing costs, except for maybe oceanfront property. We were told before we had a child to always buy in a strong school district.

Ironically, the powers that be who put the HP Plan in place and thought they would "save" downtown High Point are only causing its slow demise. Now the inner city flight is reaching out further into the suburbs because folks can't sell their homes because of the uncertain school situation.

They are taking their spending dollars with them to other counties or states.

I agree that Grimsely was the highest due to combines IB/AP. IB is now offered at Smith and Central, but I don't think as many students are enrolled.

Deb,

You are correct. I think because the program at Smith is new and I think because for many years the IB program at Central was "their little secret" until the HP "Choice" plan came about.

A friend of mine who is a Greensboro native, has told me that by far Grimsley is probably the best public high school in the area.

A lot really just depends where you live in this huge county and who you know.

From my experience, it's difficult to rate one high school as being "better" than another. Different students have different needs and what school works for one student doesn't necessarily work for another.

Using the Grimsley example, that school obviously does a lot of things well. They have a superb average SAT score, tons of kids taking college-level IB and AP courses and every year, they send hundreds of kids to four-year colleges. So they're doing a lot right.

But here's the flip side: 22 percent of Grimsley's freshmen flunked ninth grade last year.

And Grimsley, like just about every other high school in Guilford County, has a huge achievement gap. The passing rate on End-of-Course tests for white kids is 90 percent; for black kids, it's 53 percent.

Again, that's no knock on Grimsley - they do a great job educating most of their students. But like any other high school, it may not be the best fit for all students.

With the much publicized success at Grimsley High, I feel as though the time is right to start Phase 2 of " The Guilford County Schools Socialists Choice Initiative.

Think how wonderful it would be for Grimsley to pair up with Dudley and Smith to form Greensboro s' first School choice plan.

Like in High Point, it would not accomplish any educational benefits, but it sure would make the Liberal do-gooders on the school board sleep well at night, thinking that once again they have rescued a group of people who are not smart enough to think for themselves.

Greensboro...You should feel Fortunate knowing that Dr. Grier And His School Board might treat you in the same manner that they have the citizens of High Point.

Bruce,

Your last post makes it perfectly clear that Newsweek's list of best schools is worthless. It touts schools as the "best" just because they challenge or intimidate many students into taking a test. Whether the students actually have achieved academic success isn't important, so the whole report is nothing but fluff. Since all high schools in the system made the "best" list and were even in the heady levels of top 4% in the nation aren't they all great high schools?

I would agree that Grimsley is a good high school and deserving of praise, because many of their students are achieving academic success. Indeed, the rub is that 22% of the 9th grade class flunked last year, so who's to be blamed here? Has Grimsley failed those students?

If the problem is that Grimsley is a good school, but just not a good fit for that 22%, what is the solution? If Grimsley is being successful with the other 78%, what's the problem with the fit with the 22%? Maybe Greensboro needs a Greensboro Reassignment Plan that will allow these students (call them the 22%ers), and others like them at other Greensboro high schools, to choose the school that is the best fit for them? Wouldn't that be the fair and right thing to do? If it works in High Point, then why should Greensboro students be denied equal opportunity? Shouldn't they have the right to make a choice in their own school as well?

Many good points brought up here.

Bruce, it sounds to me like they may need that grant money for those 9th grade academies after all. What is the status of those small learning communities. I have read that they can be most helpful. I didn't realized the failing rate was so high among their 9th graders nor that the achievement gap was so high.

Others are on to something too, since the High Point reassignment plan is THE solution for their low achieving students, the low achievers at Grimsley and the rest of Greensboro should definitely be offered their choice of world class programs and be lotteried out as well to equalize all the Greensboro schools.

Debora: Just about every college accepts AP credit. The score you need varies by school. At Duke, they'll laugh at your 3. (You need 4s and probably 5s, depending on the discipline.) At UNCG, a 3 will get you credit in many academic areas.

Poke around on a school's Web site. Most likely, you'll find AP credit policies near the front of the course catalog. The catalogs almost always posted online.

And I've never heard of a school that limits the number of AP credits you can bring with you. I entered William and Mary with 29 AP credits -- one short of being a full sophomore.

Also, Debora, the AP-IB issue is one of the major ones against going to block. Indeed, it's exactly why Grimsley remains on the six-period schedule. AP is offered only once a year, in May on a date set by the College Board, and anyone who takes an AP course in the fall is at a disadvantage when test day rolls around.

Most GCS high schools, when they converted to block, adopted a modified version where a couple of periods meet year-round (instead of for a semester). That's so students could take a year-long AP course.

Lastly, I'm not sure why this AP fear seems so prevelant. Don't parents want their children to be challenged? To get a taste of college coursework? To get a free shot at earning some college credit, which might save moms and dads some cash down the road? So what if a kid bombs the test? Most students won't take an AP course until their senior year, and the scores are reported long after the acceptance letters are mailed out. In other words, an admissions office is looking for kids who took AP courses, and how many, not at their schools.

Besides, the whole college experience is a heck of a lot harder than one or two AP courses. Anyone who takes an AP class and struggles has an idea of what they're in for. Any high school student who blows off AP because it's too hard or scary might want to rethink this whole going-to-college thing.

John,

Thanks for joining in and explaining about the A/P's and especially about explaining about Duke.

At SWH some of the A/P courses are year round, for example, A/P U.S. History and A/P Cheministry. I do know that at SWH, at least, there is ample tutoring opportunities offered for all the A/P courses at the end of the year. It lasts for several weeks so those who had an A/P class the first semester can catch up.

John, I totally agree with you about the A/P "fear". To me it is a great opportunity for any kid who is seriously considering college. Who wouldn't want this. I don't think "fear" is the reason in most cases for not taking A/P classes. This is what I have observed from my experiences: some kids in high school are going more for the ephemeral moment; they don't think in long range goals, then all of a sudden it's senior year; some frankly don't want to be tied down with all the homework; some are more into sports and every day social life; some don't want to go to college; some kids would rather be playing video games. I know of one kid who freaks if he doesn't make an "A" so would rather be guaranteed of an "A" in Honors than a "B" in A/P. Go figure. Same GPA results.

Ditto on your last paragraph. My sentiments exactly.

Just from personal experience, my high school only offered two AP courses in the late '80s. I can honestly say that taking those two classes prepared me more for college than any other high school classes I took.

As far as an A in honors being the same GPA points as a B in Advanced Placement, that's true. But colleges would much rather see a B - or even a C - in AP than an A in honors.

I've talked to numerous college admissions officers about that and they unanimously say they would rather see kids challenge themselves in AP, even if that means getting a lower grade.

Let's see here. We have College Prep courses that are just the basic, non-challenging courses and are not considered worthy by colleges, even though their name suggests otherwise. We have Honors courses that are more challenging, but do not garner much respect by many colleges, even though their name suggests otherwise. Then, we have Advanced Placement courses that are the cream courses that you need to take and pass at a high level of achievement to get the attention of colleges.

You have a national magazine that does a report that ranks all 14 traditional high schools in the county as being in the top 4% of high schools nationally and calls them among "America's Best Schools". You have an education judge who judged 13 of these same 14 high schools as poor performers for failing to achieve a composite score of 80% on 2004 end-of-course tests, or meeting the constitutional mandate of of offering a sound basic education.

With all of this conflicting information, it just leaves me confused about what is happening in our local schools and what taxpayers are really getting for their $500 million annual investment. When are we going to hold the school board and school administration responsible for producing a return on our huge investment - a return of a sound basic education for each and every student in the county?

Dean, you are experiencing the confusion of ranking schools by non-normed testing and comparing two schools as if you are comparing apples to apples when in fact you are comparing apples to oranges. Saying that Grimsley is a 'better' school than a high school in Denver, Colorado, for example, fails to take into account several economic and demographic factors which, if factored in might make them equal. For example, spending per pupil, average education of student's parents (a strong factor in determining if a student will want to go to college), presence of athletic and arts programming (research shows that both of these have an impact on student performance in the classroom), community attitudes toward education, number of colleges and universities in geographic area (does it make a difference, for example, that Grimsley is located near Greensboro College and UNCG?), average SAT scores of students, etc, etc. In all cases it is impossible to find two schools to compare on an equal basis.

Mr. Christopher,

I didn't know that I was ranking schools. I was making reference to Newsweek's report and the News-Record's editorial today. I'm doing no ranking or comparing. I would agree, however, with your premise that there are many factors that constitute what makes a "good" school, and you enumerated several of them. That is the fatal flaw in the Newsweek report that used one quantitative measure of students taking AP and IB tests, and then ranking and naming schools as "America's Best Schools".

Judge Manning uses his own scale to evaluate North Carolina schools, the end-of-course test results. Perhaps, your argument is that scale is too general and overlybroad, but nevertheless, he has a good point about the achievement, or lack of it, in our high schools. If we are investing $500 million in our county schools, shouldn't we expect beter results?

Mr. Wormer, I wasn't claiming you were ranking them, but there certainly are lots of people who want to get on that bandwagon!

Yes of course we should expect better results if we invest in schools, but the problem is, with what are you going to measure those results?

Educators very knowledgable in testing will tell you the only way to really measure efectiveness of schools is through the gathering of longitudinal data. That is, data collected over a period of years that measures both potential (aptitude) and achievement. For example, say we have identified a group of students whose aptitude is average based on testing of children nation-wide in his.her age group but their attainment of skills in reading is below-average for that same age group. The school then adjusts its curriculum to compensate for this weakness. Two years later, the children are retested and are compared again with children in their age group. If they are now achieving results at or above the average then the school is doing its job. These kinds of tests, which measure both aptitude and achievement are the only way to obtain accurate views of the effectiveness of teaching through tests. EOC's cannot do the same thing because teachers teach to the specific text. They have nothing to do with aptiotude and little to do with overall achievement.

And in all fairness, Jay Mathews (the veteran Washington Post education reporter who compiled the Newsweek list) doesn't claim that these rankings are the end-all, be-all. They really are more conversation starters - and it looks like it's working!

Are these rankings completely worthless? No, they point out that Guilford County's high schools are offering rigorous course offerings for students, which is a good thing. But no one should take them as Moses coming down from the mountain. I compare them to something like Rolling Stone's list of 100 greatest songs.

Bruce,

If Jay Matthews intended his list to only be a conversation starter, then why did Newsweek hype the list and call if "America's Best Schools"?

Hype like this, which is much ado about nothing, will be used by Terry Grier and others to show as proof that our schools are great and doing a wonderful job (he already has done so). Lists like this are a disservice that only misleads people who do not pay close attention to what goes on in our schools and help him get his $14.7 million budget increase.

Rolling Stones list of greatest hits? No, more like Greatest Hits of M.C. Hammer, and you can place all one of them on a 45 RPM record.

Hang on a second.
I thought that a A in an Honors class is worth a GPA point of 5. An A in an AP is worth 6. That means a B in a Honours is the same as an A in a "normal" class. And so on....

I was wondering if taking AP and IB classes really helps in the long run, including getting into better colleges, or if it is better just to take the courses in college.

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