News-Record.com

OK - so the Guilford County Schools AYP results were bad because the federal government is unrealistic. The ABC's were bad because something is wrong with the State and the way they test or derive test scores or something.

I guess Princeton will have to take the blame for the decreasing SAT scores.

I wonder if the administration will ever stop and look in the mirror?

Quick!!!!!!

Someone call an Emergency school board meeting.

With the new SAT results out, it is obviously time for a raise for our superintendent and school board.

Is this a good time to use the "F-word"???????????

The 122K a year new statitician might figure out that all students to not want to go to college, that many students will not go to college and others have zero interest in taking the SAT. The scores will go up when this part of the curve disappears.

If they bring back some votech type programs for some students who just want to be able to find a decent job and have a career outside of a college education and not require them to take the SAT, you have solved part of the problem.

Then again, they could just blame Princeton for not meeting all students' needs.

Maybe they will add the "F" word as one of the vocabulary words for an extra point.

Now, now; according to those savvy editors at the N&R we are not supposed to comment any more about Dr. Grier. Something in the editorial section Saturday about if a tree is chopped down that Dr. Grier is to blame?

Well who in the world is to blame when performance is chopped down? And apparently this is only unique to Guilford County because the state of NC showed an overall increase. I guess we should all be thankful that Dr. Grier is just the Guilford County Superintendent and not the new State Superintendent; just imagine how inept the entire state would be under his "leadership".

Hold on, I have to change the chain on my Poulan.

TIMBER!!!!

One-year changes, both up (last year) and down (this year), are deceiving. A better indication would be how the system's average has changed over the past several years. If the general trend is up, good. If not ....

Interesting juxtaposition of articles on the N&R's front page this morning. Right below the article detailing Guilford County Schools' falling SAT scores sits an article about the county's need for more jail space. Hmmmmm.

Lex:

And how do you explain the AYP's, ABC's, suspension rates, etc.?

Have you heard of the "No Spin Zone"?

These scores stand a monument to site-based management run amuke. It is sad. Do you think BOE will act??

What a joke Guilford County Schools are proving themselves to be. This new statistician is going to be SOOO busy. First he needs to "analyze data to determine what academic areas schools need to focus on." I have a 10th grader. Are you telling me that the schools do not currently know what academic areas they need to focus on? Thank goodness that we have hired this guy at a hundred and thirty thousand or whatever it was. Second, our revered statistician will be busy helping us to measure success. As reported on page B2 today, "(He) created prediction models to show how each school should progress to reach AYP's 2013-2014 deadline." Again, I assume the schools must have been clueless as to how to progress, prior to our hiring a statistician. My husband works with statistics in the health care industry. While my husband's use of statistics accomplishes much for his company (of course!), he is accountable to his board of directors. Believe me, the day he stops actually producing concrete results is the day he is let go. But my husband knows a very important, cardinal rule of statistics: He can use statistics to prove whatever you want him to prove. And he can make an excuse for just about anything using those same statistics. We fear that that is how Guilford has been, and plans to use their statistician. Just one more magician to dazzle the masses with his mind-numbing charts and figures. Just one more bloated salary added to the permanent list of necessary administrators.

Guilford County doesn't need another over-paid administrator to come to the conclusion that NOT all kids want or should go to college.

Bring the tech schools back so these kids can get a job that pays a livable wage. I rather my tax dollars be spent on training these kids than figuring out why the scores are dropping.
We all know why they are dropping!

Norma Ray,

I'm not sure what you mean by bring back the tech schools. The district still offers those types of classes.

There is Weaver, where students can go for specific courses not offered at the traditional high schools. And there are tech courses offered at many of the high schools, although none has as much to offer as Weaver.

Further, students who complete the college tech prep course of study (which can lead to jobs ranging from auto mechanic to registered nurse) have opportunities to earn credit at GTCC.

So there are opportunities out there for students who aren't interested in a four-year college.

However, to get a living wage, most students will have to go to some type of after high school training. There certainly are exceptions. But if you talk to industry folks, they're looking for people with more training and education than just high school.

Is it true what someone told me? I heard Tuesday's School Board meeting to discuss test results was subtitled "A PR scheme to make you feel good about failing"

Is that true?

I was at the Tuesday meeting. SAT scores were released at 10:35am. However, Dr. Grier did not release Guilford County scores at the meeting. He did say we had lost the gain we made last year. This was an indication that the news was real bad.

I felt good about the meeting. I still believe Dr. Grier and some great ideas. He mentions, but the BOE does not listen, that site-based management is a obsticle in getting some things done. He is so polite, it just goes by the Board.
He did say he was angry about the gap between white and black SAT scores. I think Guilford is about 275 where nationwide it is about 200-220.
The low scores were a great disapointment to staff. I think their ideas for this school year are sound. I wish they had not given that extra $500,000 to teacher supplements. It would be much better spent in training/retraining of teachers. One gentlemen commented that one reason progress can not be made in black schools is that all of the good teachers are made into Ass't principals or are xferred to HQ. He said one school lost 7 in a short period of time. (I am not sure what school he said.)

Jennifer,

What I meant by tech schools are job training programs such as plumbing, auto mechanics, hair dresser, etc. You could get a job right out of high school if you are trained in any of these trades. And you don't need to take AP classes.

Although Weaver may offer some of these programs, are students encouraged to take these programs if they do not have the desire to go to college or are they encourage to take AP courses which they fail again and again? Last year my daughter, who was a freshman at the time, had seniors taking French II for the third time. Why put these kids through this? HOw many students actually attend Weaver for one of the mentioned programs? Is it successful? Do students attend from all attendence lines within Guilford County? If not, is it too far for some!

When I went to high school many years ago, there were two types of students; those who were college bound; those who wanted a job right out of high school. This has not changed. What has change is the pressure that administrators put on some kids who do not have the ability or motivation to take AP courses much less go to college. In my day those types of students thrived; Today that is not the case.

Michelle, you are right about the use of "Statistics". It's called Simpson's Paradox, I believe. You can conveniently leave out the data you want and put in the other data.
I fear this will be the job of the new statistician, to make Guilford County School appear to be successful. It is all a numbers game.

Norma Rae,

You are correct. Years ago, they called it vo-tech training. There was no "shame" in wanting to have a career right out of high school. Students did on the job training and then perhaps an apprenticeship after high school. These were skilled workers who took pride in what they did. Many girls opened beauty salons. Many went on to have very successful businesses.

I totally agree that not all kids want A/P classes nor or they cut out to do the work. Some kids are just trying to stay in school and graduate and stay out of trouble.

Many of these jobs are needed. We wouldn't have electricians, plumbers, mechanics.....if everyone wanted to be a brain surgeon.

Thanks, Barbara Ann, for seeing my point.

I also think that's why there are so many behavior problems. Not like that should be an excuse. But kids are going to act out if they feel inadequate. And forcing them to take AP classes does just that!

I have a friend that got her hairdressing license at age 18- she now makes near or over 6 figures. She is a true professional. We definitely need to get back to some of basics-- and we need to concentrate on basic education from the ground up. Of all the HS only 2 has SAT scores higher than they did 5 years ago. Would someone tell me how the BOE can ignore this. Might if have anything to do with leadership? These are not federal or state tests, so title 1 doesn't matter. Just teach the children!!!!!!

GCS BOE doesn't really care about children in elementary school. Rather than use the $1.5 million to keep TAs, (that is what the state allocated the money for), they give the money to high school athletics. And to teachers (to make up for not having assistants? to buy a new "professional" wardrobe?) The teachers i have spoken to would MUCH rather have assistants than more money.

Why is there no discussion on this blog or in the paper about the cutting of 96 more teacher assistants? We've lost 8 so far at our school and more are to be cut (another tree for TG). Remaining assistants are scrambling to assist in 3-5 classes daily, plus lunch duty, bus (car, van, hall) duties. Thankfully, an assistant was present today when a class had a large discipline problem. If not, it would have had to have been ignored because there was no time to call admin and an over full class to teach.

If the BOE would put more money into ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, there wouldn't be so much bad news about high school students. they wouldn't have to spend so much time, money and statistics shuffling to try to improve hs test scores.

I spoke at the last BOE about keeping TA's. The only person that is interested in that is Darlene, and Nancy Routh did vote yes. I found it intersting that Dr Grier said that per pupil there was more money spent at elem level then slightly less at middle school and even less at HS. I would what he includes in that figure? Band uniforms, football uniforms, athletic fields, etc seems like that would add up to a couple of TA's. Of course elem schools have less kids per grade than many(all?) of the middle schools/high schools. Anyway, just thought I would let you know what I heard.

Yvonne:

Simpson's Paradox has nothing to do with cherrypicking data and everything to do with relationships of related data -- specifically (and I'm quoting from a succinct summary at Wikipedia), it's when "the successes of several groups seem to be reversed when the groups are combined."

Simpson's Paradox shows up in the education realm this time every year when SAT scores come out. The question: If average SAT scores of white scores are increasing, and average SAT scores of African-American and Latino students are increasing even faster, why are national scores not going up as fast as those in the different racial and ethnic groups?

Simpson's Paradox forces you to dig into the data. What you'll find is that African-American and Latinos not only score significantly lower as a group than white and Asian students (again, that's an historical gap), but they're taking the SAT in rapidly growing numbers. That means an increasing number of below average scores -- better than they were, say, 10 years ago but still below national averages -- are being fed into the overall average.

That's just something to mull the next time anyone puzzles over SAT scores.

P.S.: All this year's SAT scores mean is that the class of 2005 didn't do as well on the test as the class of 2004, and the class of 2004 was the most accomplished (at least on the SAT) in the five years of results that GCS posted online. The 2005 results are three points less than the 2003 scores and one point off the 2002 scores -- hardly cause for alarm.

But GCs's scoring trend over the past five years has been flat, and it's going up in both NC and the US. That's the bigger concern, or at least it should be.

Why must Guilford County Taxpayers accept a Half-Ass job performance from our School Superintendent????????????????

We pay for a Mercedes, but recieve the equivalent of a beat up PINTO.

The tar is boiling and the chickens have been plucked.

Mr. Grier, the time is now for you to leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Please take Aunt Dottie with you!!!

And John.....in conclusion....your last point says it all...."GC...the past five years has been flat" Why is that? Considering the negative ABC's, the AYP's, the SAT's is this not an evergrowing reason to be alarmed?

I will leave the details up to the new $122K a year statistician that my tax dollars are paying for. According to the N & R, he is being paid to tell us where students should be in 2013. We could all read the NCLB laws and know that one.

What's more infuriating! Think about how many TA's you could hire with $122,000.

Anyone have an idea how much gas the GCS has stocked up for the buses?

Yvonne:

I didn't mean to confuse you at the end of my opus there.

My points (or attempted point, anyway) is that no one should get too amped up over one-year changes in SAT scores (or any test scores, for that matter). It's the long-term trends that mean something, especially when compared with what's going on across the state and nation. On that count, at least with SAT scores, sure, GCS should be concerned.

I don't know why SAT scores have been flat in GCS and rising elsewhere.

John,

So we should consider it just coincidence that EVERYTHING has been down this year and not get too "amped up?"

Just a question, do you have children in Guilford County Public Schools?????

Of course it counts, Bruce.

John just sounded so "oh well" about the whole thing that I didn't get the feeling that he has kids in the schools.

Four years of HS go by really fast. They also lay the ground work for what your child will be doing with at least the next four years if they plan on going to college. We have lots of problems in our schools and now they are also showing up in the SAT scores. As a parent, I'm afraid I cannot just say "oh well"....because I don't see that the "long term trends" look so great either.

I deleted my previous post. It read a lot more sarcastic than I intended - I meant it as more tongue-in-cheek, but that didn't come across when I read it on the screen. Sorry about that.

Bruce,

Where have you been? Did you run out of gasoline to run around and do your reporting? Better gas up. We have missed you.

Now you know what I am going to ask. What is the deal with the number of appeals that were granted for the HP Choice Lottery Plan; how many were granted; from which school to where? main concerns in those granted, etc., etc.

I know you said you have asked several times. Will you ever get that information? What is the big secret?

ba

Off the subject of SAT, how is GCS going to afford these gas prices?? I would think it could quickly devastate their budget. Any word from them about the gas Bruce?

Too bad they didn't let those kids in HP who can see Southwest from their backyards walk to that school. Instead GCS will be paying astronomical prices to bus them across town and kids across town to Southwest. I bet the parents who are driving their kids are none too happy about using the extra gas.

Sandy,

GCS has a plan in mind already. Look at the N&R homepage to see the story they will run tomorrow about the 4-day school week.

I think they had an emergency meeting today with the school board-- don't kids have to go 180 days, so why would 4 days help us? I guess I will read the article first!

Grier-ended again! Why don't they just bus the kids to the closest school?

I'm sure there would be plenty of parents who would volunteer to send their child to their neighborhood school.

Deb,

Is it 180 days or so many hours?

Hopefully they would not lengthen the school day -what about sport schedules and clubs?

Also if they went to a four-day week temporarily, I am sure they would have to make it up into the summer months later. Sooner or later they will have to be using fuel.

And did we not tell them LONG BEFORE the vote on 210/05 that the busing costs alone for the HP "Choice" Lotto Plan would be very expensive?

Did Garth not run a software program on the actual projected busing costs over 4 years and stand up and give a speech in an auditorium filled with over 800 parents?

Could anyone have predicted the recent disasterin the gulf and the related fuel dilema?

Now if someone plugged in the new numbers on cost of fuel (ever growing), distances, and trips, for example, from High Point to Weaver Academy, how much would all this busing be costing us now?

Does anyone out there want to take a stab at it?

Bruce?

I guess the "f-word" in these parts must be "fuel."

Is this possible cutback to 4 days a week the result of a study down by the $122K Stat-man? You would think with failing results that the School Board would be looking for ways to add class time each week; not reduce it.

I certainly hope that Dr. Grier's car allowance has been adjusted for this increase in fuel costs; it costs money to drive from Grandover to downtown GSO everyday.

Another concern about a 4 day week....what are working parents supposed to do with their kids for day care? take them to work? I'm sure that would go over big.

Will they have a full day ACES program?

Bruce, it's nice that you were able to edit/delete your own post with no further penalty to yourself. In the spirit of second chances how about letting our friend Marcy come back and play on this Blog? She promises to use more than four letter words, as a matter of fact she can use four syllable words which means that she is over-qualified to be any of the Democratic County Commissioners, particulary the Chairman.

On a different topic how do I get these calls from High Point Central to stop? These people have been looking for my daugther for over a week. For all these clowns in the school system know it's possible she boarded a bus last Thurday and she hasn't come home yet.

According to the lottery she is supposed to be at Central, but as I told Dot Kearns and Susan Mendenhall a long time ago there was NO WAY they were dragging our daughter clear accross town when she could walk to Southwest in 5 minutes. I wonder what the cost of a pair of Keds is compared to the fuel needed for a roundtrip to Central these days.

Today I received a letter from the Bison Club looking for money. HAHAHA, this school system doesn't get another dime from my family. I did feel bad the other day when I had to ask the kids selling those Dine-a-mate books to leave this year. I was relieved to see that Harris Teeter had the code for the private school my daughter is at now, I would hate to think that Dr. Grier would get 10 cents every time I bought some Bud Light.

nottechn'my,kid, I have not seen Marcy on here for a long time. but I do not remember her ever using the F word like those kids in England. for now, the four letter F word shall me FUEL and lack of it.

the schools could buy all the kids some Keds and let them walk to their closet school. this is a super idea. now that would be cheaper than busing them on a long bus ride across town

So that's what happened to Marcy!!! Perhaps she could be put on double secret probation and be allowed to come back.

If not, we will always wonder what would Marcy post?

Marcy, gasoline for your thoughts. I heard GCS needs some extra or our kids will have a 4 day school week.

I am dumbfounded as I read the suggestions brought forth by our school board to save on fuel costs.

Stop Forced Busing, you bunch of Dumb-Ass Idiots!!!!!!!!

How in this world does the Guilford County Taxpayers continue to put up with the wasteful spending that goes on by our school leaders.

The school board and their leader, Mr. Grier were warned on numerous occassions the potential for financial disaster with the High Point Choice Plan.

They voted against common sense and implemented the ridiculous plan and it has been a failure ever since.

Mr. Grier and all that voted for the forced busing in High Point should be FIRED immediately.

The time is now for a change to Responsible Leadership for our schools.

Excellent question, General? Why as taxpayers do we continue to put up with this leadership?

This whole thing is a diaster! The sb and Grier continue to live on the edge with our tax money.

All they do is spend, spend and spend!!! Why, why, why to we put up with this????

Everyone needs to relax regarding the sb ideas to deal with increased fuel costs. We all know that the sb throws out rediculous solutions to difficult problems, knowing that they won't and can't implement them. It's known as the "shock" factor, as in shock the citizens with a rediculous idea or two, then after the uproar occurs, recant that idea and just say that the only possible answer is MORE MONEY. MORE MONEY is always the sb and Terry Grier's solution to every problem. The real problem is that the county commissioners always gives them MORE MONEY, but the problems never really get solved, and they just spend more of our OUR MONEY.

Post if you were EVER Grier-ended!

I read in the newspaper that one idea is to turn the classroom A/C up to 80 degrees. Since many of us grew up with no A/C in schools and made it quite fine, I could accept this. (There could be acceptions at testing times.) However, what is good for the kids is good for all of GCS.

I am sure that ALL of Guilford County School administrative offices at EVERY location will also be put at 80 degrees also.

Children learn by example so I know they surely must be planning to turn their A/C on 80 also.

I also thought Anita's comment about currently using buses to transport 4 children was valid. I have been saying this for a long time. A taxi or limo would probably be cheaper; rented mini-vans with a "Guilford County Schools" magnet on the side perhaps.

meant to say "exceptions" at testing times - darn Bruce - we sure need spell check for those of us in a hurry - believe it or not I really can spell

Barbara Ann,
Where did you hear the comments from Anita? Would love to read/hear the context and other peoples thoughts. I have said for years that with the right to choose a magnet school should come responsibility for transportation! More rights =more responsibility. We spend more on magnet schools per student without the extra transportation, so how is that right? If every school had the same per dollar amount maybe transportation wouldn't be a problem, but that is not the way it works.

I like this Grier-ended thing (not having it done to me...just the word and the meaning BEHIND it)

Does anybody know how to rent that billboard near Grier's office? You could do a simple math equation that everyone in the county could answer.

*******************************************
(A picture of Grier) + X = Grier-ended

Choose an answer:
a) moving bond money
b) getting rid of teacher assistants
c) long bus rides
d) all of the above
*******************************************

Oh, that's easy; anybody could answer that:

D

Deb,

I read Anita's comments in today's (Fri) High Point Enterprises. There are also comments about the 4 day week and longer school days or 4 day week and days added at the end of the school year.

The HPE has a new reporter and she is doing agreat job on the school coverage. It is now seems to be up to date like the N & R. If they don't deliver in your area, you can read a lot of the articles on line.

You have a valid point about the true magnet programs that people choose. If they provided their own transportation, this could save tons of money. But it would not solve the problem of the forced lottery magnets and the long bus rides.

the four day week is not happening...the state said NO...it is not a local decision!

Mercy,

Thank you for the update. As the paid-by-the-hour attourney for GCS said per the newspaper, there could be legal concerns to some of the issues they discussed.

btw and fyi - The Seattle case for busing for racial purposes is still ongoing in the courts.

Also according to the Statesville Record & Landmark "Judge says return to busing unlikely in Charlotte-Mecklenburg" Associated Press, August 9,2005...."Busing is not going to solve it, Mr. Chambers, because you can't move all the children out" of poor schools, Wake County Superior Court Judge Howard Manning Jr. told attorney Julius Chambers....

"A federal judge ordered an end to race-based student assignments and busing six years ago, saying the school system was desegregated."...

"Shuffling (students) around on a bus may not be the answer," Manning said.

"Last week, Gov. Mike Easley said he wants state educators to send special "turnaround teams" to high schools where fewer than 60 percent of students passed this year's end-of-course tests."

Hopefully, these teams will help our low performing schools in Guilford County. The teams have begun their first work in Charlotte-Mecklenburg.

We should welcome these teams with open arms in our schools.

"Turn Around Teams"?????

And where does this money come from?

I know what "Turn Around" teams mean. It means take the Title 1 status away from a school, and then TURN AROUND and beg for more money from the Governor!!

I wonder how the Governor feels knowing that he's now coming to the rescue of schools like Andrews High, that just got their Title 1 status removed because of an inept Superintendent?

Yea, I know what "Turn Around" means! Anyone that has had a hand in screwing over High Point needs a "turn-around" team to turn their thinking around.

Let's get some common sense!

Oh, and if Terry Grier even MENTIONS the price of gas again, I'm going to get REALLY ugly!!! He knows how to save MILLIONS and GALLONS with just one swift decision--Get rid of the illegal busing in High Point!

I guess the money comes out our our taxes like everything else. But I would certainly hope that someone new coming in might be able to help our failing schools. Whatever has been done to date, has not had any positive changes so far at Andrews.

Regardless, maybe the issues of order and discipline and suspensions can be addressed in an honest manner of what needs to be done.

Agreed on the gas - get rid of ILLEGAL busing whether it be by a FORCED lottery or FORCING people to schools that need to desperately be fixed first. FORCE will never work. People just continue to leave the public schools in High Point either by moving or by going private. Everyone loses as these parents take their dollars and their volunteer hours with them.

After a week or so of forced schooling at Central I am happy to say that my daughter is quite happy.
A couple of points though.
We are spending a lot more on gas these days. Not only because of the Hurricane price hike. Its also quite a logistical problem with my other children at the SW schools.
My daughter also said that there are a lot of children at central who want to be at Andrews (their local school).

Conclusion. Its not only the bigots of SW that dont like it..

HPDad, those BIGOTS over in Emerywood apparently like the plan; go ask Dot and Susan.

I haven't seen any of these Bigots you speak of over at Southwest; perhaps you would like to back that talk of yours up with some action and we could go find them together.

How can you use Title One funds to pay for a turn around team if the school isn't a Title One school?

Debora,

That's the very question I have been pondering.

I guess you really can have your cake and eat it too.

Buck,
I meant "us" bigots.
Arent we supposed to be bigots?

The only bigots at SW that I know of are the ones that certain people made up in order to get the HP Plan passed. If the powers that be didn't have a cover-up plan how could they sell it as being so wonderful. How us could Central be the whitest and the brightest and fairest in the land?

The new "Grimsley" of High Point. Now that might want to make more businesses move here and make Mayor Becky and her friends real happy.

Good point, HP Dad, about the students at Central from Andrews just wanting their home school back. Sound familiar? I guess they don't like the long bus ride either. Kids are kids.

Granted your daughter may be happy at Central but would she be equally happy at SWH, her home school? It sounds like it would certainly be more convenient for your family and easier on your gasoline budget.

Speaking of gasoline budgets, what about the one for the school buses. How much will this plan put them over budget now? How much will forced crosstown busing cost?

Deb and Quest, I suppose when you know how to play the game and play it well, you can have your cake and eat it too. It looks like the teams are sent to the lowest schools regardless?

Oh, I see.

The "turn-around teams" are going to the schools that have been "Grier-ended".

Get it?

They will hopefully turn them AROUND so they can STOP being Grier-ended!

That makes sense.

Mary,
we would all defiitely be happier at SW. The reason for my post was that after all our worries it seems that our daughter is not being harmed by this ridiculous plan.
We do however hope to be redistricted back to SW next year.
I say that knowing that at the moment the proposal is to have us from the other side of Skeet sent to Andrews.
I will fight it!

hpdad:

you are right. it is one ridiculous idea after the other. why can't they get Andrews straight and leave the rest of us alone.

hpdad,

You "hope" that your daughter will be redistricted back to SW next year? I once heard a wise person say "Hope is not a plan". If you want your children to attend their neighborhood school, instead of being shuttled all around the city to meet the needs of the BOE, you better get crackin' on a plan now. One year is not a long period of time and our BOE is a formidable foe, that'll do just about anything to achieve its goals (which don't necessarily include your daughter's best interests or her education).

Well said Stormy

better start saving that money for private school HP dad

it has nothing to do with education

Well said Windy.

As a recent family to join the swelling private school ranks in High Point I can tell you the difference is amazing and well worth the sacrifice.

For example my daughter is tired when she comes home in the afternoon because the teachers actually teach, and uninterupted mind you. When the "thug of the day" cannot disrupt the class you will be amazed at how much your child can learn.