News-Record.com

I thought the article was very well done. Bruce, here

March 15, 2005

We are very proud that Guilford County Schools has significantly decreased our dropout rate during the past four years—639 students dropped out of grades 9-12 in 2004 as compared to 1,070 in 2000. Our three percent high school dropout rate was significantly lower than the other large districts in North Carolina and one of the lowest in the state.

How does this compute with your figures? There seems to be a HUGE difference! Maybe you can help me understand!

Good question, Debora.

It's true that Guilford County Schools has done a really good job in recent years with reducing the number of dropouts and keeping kids in school. They are both bringing back students who have left and doing more to prevent dropouts in the first place.

Having said that, it's also true that far too many students still leave school without a high school diploma. Progress is being made, but as Sunday's article showed, the dropout problem is far from being licked.

Okay, I can agree with many of our points, but as a society does it cost us more to help this kids get an education or keep them above the poverty level with food stamps, public housing, jail costs; etc once they drop out, have kids, start to steal, etc?

Would I like to see all small HS for ALL of our kids? You betcha! My kid gets lost in the numbers at his school. This year his teachers are better, and therefore he is getting the attention that he and every child deserves; but unless we can use our money effeciently then there are hundreds of'boarderline' kids that are falling through the cracks! If we identify these children earlier and help them with the basics, then maybe we can save them and they can become contributing members of our society instead of a burden!

I meant my last question for Low Pointer.

Debora,

There will always be those that live in public housing, on food stamps, and in jail. NO school system in the world is going to remedy that. And we as a society will always pay. Do I think that bringing a few kids "back" to school after they've dropped out is going to change that? Hell no.

I think the administrators of public instruction should be doing just that-- Instructing those kids IN public schools. Our time and money should be spent on those kids.

Dropouts that realize they've made a mistake often do go back to school, get their GED in community colleges or yep, even in jail.

I do NOT expect the public education system to rectify all that ails America. I just expect them to teach our kids the basics--and they can't even do that.

That's pathetic.

If you have followed my comments on the blog you will realize that there are many, many things that our school system does that I vocally disagree with, but helping kids stay in school is not one of them. I just don't think its not a clear cut problem, with any clear cut answers. I think that there are alot of gray areas. Isn't it the job of public education to help people make a living? How can we educate the kids if they get so far behind that they decide to drop out.
Some people will drop out no matter what, but the margarinal ones need help and I think all us benefit when more students stay in school. When another thread about quality of education is started I will be glad to chime in on that thread, but my main concern here is are the true numbers being reported accurately and is Dr Grier getting too much credit for reducing the drop out rate, when/if numbers are not accurate.

Debora,

With all respect, you can be vocal about whatever you wish.

I disagree. It is NOT the job of public education to help people "make a living". You're thinking of college.

Public education should instill the BASICS so that students can then pursue whatever they desire,...college, parenthood...jail...whatever.

MY beef is that too much time, energy, money, focus is spent on anything BUT the basics. The system is already doing too much at the detriment of the basic ol student that shows up every day. Ya know, kids like yours.

That is where our energy should be focused. I don't care what Grier reports, how many kids he takes credit for bringing back to public schools or the number of kids he entices to stay. I would like to see him focus his concern on the student that does indeed want to learn the basics--make their instructional day exciting and enticing.

Public education is a privilege. It's not my fault that some morons take that for granted. Nor should other programs suffer because our system cares more about "saving" a few dropouts--when we know they just want the money that comes with these dropouts.

The bottom line is: I'm done letting my children get trampled over so some under-achiever can be coddled.

Debora and LP,

This discussion is most appropriate to the issues that our school system is dealing with, such as kids dropping out. Debora's statement about public education being responsible for helping make a living struck a note with me, as it did LP.

What is an appropriate mission for a public school system? GCS has the following: "Students will graduate as responsible citizens prepared to succeed in higher education or the career of their choice." So, it would appear that Debora's statement coincides with GCS.

But, do public schools really exist to graduate responsible citizens? Do they exist to prepare students for higher education or a career? Perhaps, those are indirect results that we expect, but is it the primary mission? I think that this is where the school system departs from the expectations of many parents. Many parents still expect that public schools exist to provide an education for their children, but the GCS mission mentions noting about that. But, in a school district that sees its mission as preparing good citizens for college or a career, you are going to have a departure of opinions on what they are doing. Until the district administration sees it mission to educate, there will be continued problems.

You are right, LP, public school cannot be ALL to ALL children. They are not equipped to raise a child or should they have to. As a teacher, I have bent over backwards with some children and nothing worked because their parents DID NOT value education. If the motivation is not there, you can teach until you're blue in the face by utilizing every innovative teaching methods know to the profession and that doesn't mean that a child will learn. The sad truth is more don't make it than do!

Do I think that public school should give up trying? Absolutely not!! But there comes a time when enough is enough. What is needed in these high schools are programs that will train these kids for a vocational career. The trouble with GCS is that Grier thinks everyone should take honors classes. HOw can these kids take these classes if they can barely read. This just leads to frustation and eventually they drop out. I say get them to read well enough to enter a vocational type program so they are not draining the system for the rest of their lives. But that will never be since some SB members think everyone should be a brain surgeon or should have the opportunity to be one.

I thought an education was learning things that would make you be able to qualify for either a job or higher education (college). That is my idea of a basic education. -- I don't think that schools should teach the basics so that 18 year olds can sit around and look at each other. They should be able to fill out an application, take instructions from a boss, open a business, go to college, learn a trade, open a bank account and become a decent member of society. Stormy, what do you think most parents expect that a student will do with a 'basic education?' And I am sincerely asking. If an eduation is not to prepare them to be productive citizens, what is the goal? Knowledge for the sake of knowlege?

Fascinating debate. The alternative programs in GCS seems like a good idea for kids who can't function in the traditional environment, where they would end up being suspended or picked on. From a friend at one of those schools I understand they are treated more like college students, don't have to ask to go to the bathroom, etc... Apparently, they are able to handle this fairly well. I also understand that they are allowed to smoke. Kids that like to express themselves through the way they dress don't get distracted or picked on as much.

The teachers I know that work in these schools say they are successful by in large. The improvement numbers point to the same, although you know I am skeptical of the spin doctors (see my other past comments). Are we there yet? Absolutely not, Bruce's report shows that. Should graduating kids be important to us? Yes, for the sake of society. Reality tells us that every kid will not make it (we can't expect to be 100%), but in today's society a diploma doesn't mean as much as it once did. Expectations as you know have increased in what employers want, even at the lowest levels. We should at least be getting students to the diploma level. We should also be teaching them basic skills so that we don't have to support them later. If we don't get them to that point these days, we will end up supporting them.

I have been disappointed at the lack of instruction in these areas in traditional schools and believe a new focus should be placed on teaching those skills to all students. Thank goodness for teachers who take it on themselves and for Junior Achievement programs.

On the flip side we can not allow kids that disrupt the traditional environment to interfere with the education of others. Nor can we allow more attention on one child versus the rest of the class. By allowing disruptions and unbalanced attention to go on we deny a fundamental right to each and every student.

As much of a critic as I am of the system, the creation of these programs is very innovative. However, I am curious about the motives of the system. Is it showing serious concern towards graduating students? Or are individuals downtown just working to make themselves look better on paper?

Time will tell.

Murrow

PS....if anybody knows what the Emoneywood is, email me and please let me know, apparently it is a neighborhood or group of people that is SO important and influential I have NEVER heard of it or them.

debora,

Education is not given for the purpose of earning a living; it's learning what to do with a living after you've earned it. Abraham Lincoln

A couple more thoughts on the purpose of education. Debora, I hope some of this answers your question as you what we should think that a child can do with a basic education. In short, I see it as education serving to improve the person and society, not just as so much job training.

I see the basics of education that a child is supposed to develop in public school are the key skills that they will use in performing any job, such as the ability to read, write and speak well. These are essentials to anyone regardless of what job or career they may pursue.

"An educatonal system isn't worth a great deal if it teaches young people how to make a living but doesn't teach them how to make a life." - Author unknown

"A free society is based on the premise that human beings are rational and can be trusted to make informed choices." Georgette Bennett

"Education has in America's whole history been the major hope for improving the individual and society." -Gunnar Myrdal

"The ability to think straight, some knowledge of the past, some vision of the future, some skill to do useful service, some urge to fit that service into the well-being of the community--these are the most vital things education must try to produce." -Virginia Gildersleeve, Dean Emeritus, Barnard College, in _Many a Good Crusade_

OK, after we all graduate from High School who is going to do the 19K per year jobs.

Ladies and gents we live in a capitalist society. Thats the way it is.

Somebody will have to get paid 19K.

Murrow,

time will tell is not good enough. The children in our schools need to be on the right path NOW.
A lot of them are not and its ruining it for everyone.

Alternative schools have their place and they make keep kids from dropping out. But what happens in the real world when employers expect you to not smoke on the job, not wear your doo rag to work,to speak proper English and be able to follow the rules of the job? Sooner or later if you want to fit into society and obtain a decent paying job, there will be rules of common courtesy and decency.

Theobvious,

Students who only have a high school diploma in today's society and in the future will only make 19K or less a year. Without the diploma, probably far less (you will pay for them). Things have stepped up. A lot of 30-40K jobs these days want MA degrees. How do I know? I have one and am job seeking. You are right about somebody having to do those jobs, but without graduates we won't have any.

Time will have to tell (even though it is not good enough) unless you are some kind of superhero, the realism is that you can't fix every problem in a single day.

Truth, I agree with you.

Murrow

Three phrases should be among the most common in our daily usage. They are: Thank you, I am grateful and I appreciate.