News-Record.com

The North Carolina Piedmont Triad's top go-to source for News
A service of the News & Record, Greensboro, North Carolina

Home

The Chalkboard

« Supply shortages | Main | Kiser suspension rates rise »

Increase class size, pay teachers more

Saul Cooperman, a former New Jersey state commissioner of education, offers a provacative idea in a Nov. 2 commentary (registration may be required) for Education Week.

Cooperman, who is the president of the N.J.-based Citizens for Better Schools, suggests that perhaps small class size is not all it's cracked up to be.

"There is an alternative to the lower-is-better panacea that is not complicated at all," Cooperman writes. But he adds that it is "heretical to most educators and parents alike."

His idea?

"Increase class size and use the money saved to pay teachers more."

Cooperman admits that the research is decidedly mixed. There are studies about the benefits of smaller class sizes. Then again, there are studies like the recent one from England, which showed that class size seemed to matter little student progress in subjects such as math and English.

Most teachers teach 20 students the same way they teach 30, Cooperman writes. He recommends class sizes of 30 to 35 in all grades except kindergarten through third.

"What I am suggesting is heresy to most people, because everybody seems to love smaller classes. Teachers want them; parents believe the smaller, the better; and the public generally has bought in," Cooperman writes.

His column has generated lots of discussion.

Amber says: "Larger class sizes may be more effective for the "school" and the "teachers salary" but is it for the students? Aren't they the reason why we all teach or plan to teach?"

Sandy says: "If Americans valued their children like they value their cars, televisions, sports, and cell phones, there would not be a shortage of funding and no need for the class size discussion. Schools would be able to meet the needs of every child and do so in exceptional ways."

What do you say? Class size came up at the beginning of this school year as the district struggled to find space for additional students.

Americans supersize just about everything, from fast food to SUVs.
Should classrooms be next?


Comments (19)

To report abuse of the comment feature on this site, please use the feedback form at the bottom of any page.

Voucher Vickie said:

I would be perfectly happy with small class sizes in just K, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Studies show that those are the crucial years. Studies show the magic number is no more than 15 and these kids reap the benefits all the way to college.

Guilford County schools cannot even manage to do this. I could care less if they stick 50 kids in large auditoriums in the upper grades, just give us the small class sizes at the lower grades! Grier claims that he's doing this but again he's only doing it at a couple "special" schools.

11-Star Gen. Slak said:

Bruce,

I'm still waiting to see if you are going to investigate the COVER-UP of the crimes that occurred at High Point High Schools last week.

I believe that some serious crimes may have been committed.

PLEASE CALL GRIER AND SEE IF IT IS OK IF YOU LOOK INTO THIS MATTER.

I'm sure the parents of students would like to know about these crimes.

thebeatgoeson said:

I just read the letters to the editor and am ecstatic to see the Aycock Drumline is doing well.

It was one of the most heartwarming stories in mind a couple of years ago.

The day the Aycock Drumline played at Florence Elementary there was not a dry eye in the house and to see the pride the kids had will stay with me forever.

Bruce, I would love to read a follow-up story on the drumline any chance that can happen.


Rachel said:

General,

You are correct. Police blotter says 3 arrests at SWH yesterday.

One arrest at Andrews 10/26 for drug possessionand distribution.

Bruce, please investigate the SWH arrests and print on the Chalkboard and in the newspaper.

Barbara Ann said:

I have never taught at a class while subbing in elementary schools that had 15 in a class. Last year I subbed at Jamestown Elementary twice which I do believe is a Title I school. The beginning of the year I had 30, and most kids did not have good behavior. They did not have two specialty teachers then (I think Music and Art) so teachers did not even get that break. Within 72 hours Darlene G go permission for them to have subs at that school for these specials so teachers could at least have that break. When I went back a few weeks later, I had 24 in the same class. The teacher I had subbed for, left mid year to take a staff position at another school; another male teacher had quit the same grade level after a few weeks; other teacher said she was going back to Canada this year. (all this in 4th grade)

If you read the results of the teacher surveys, more pay was not at the top of the list. Teachers wanted to be listened too and feel like they are valued. To give one teacher 40 kids in this day and age would be unconcionable. Even if the kids had ideal behavior (which won't happen in our "tolerant" public schools), there is the time in grading all the papers and calling all the parents; collecting money for field trips; running copies for 40 kids; reading records; testing, etc. Now top that off with no A/P's to do lots of the running and paperwork.

Any teacher would tell you that it is much easier to teach a smaller class. However, even if you have 15 and you have a few kids who continually break the rules, are disruptive, and allowed to continue in this class, it makes any teacher's year miserable. It cheats the students who want to learn out of a year of education.

We not only need smaller classrooms, but smaller high schools would be more manageable. Smaller classes would mean teachers could help control the cheating that has gone on at some of our schools. Above all, we need to restore order and discipline in our schools, on school property and on the buses. There should be cameras at all the middle and high schools and on the buses for the record. The rules should be the same for all students and the consequences the same. Our kids should feel safe when they walk out the door to go to school and parents should feel the same.

There should be alternative schools for students who do not obey the rules.

Until EVERYONE is willing to admit the problems in our schools (and this doesn't mean there aren't many positive things happening too), we cannot begin to address the problem areas.

If kids are allowed to be in noncompliance with the rules, why do we have handbooks with rules in them?

tim mann said:

Dear Beat Goes On,

Where did you see the article on the Aycock Drumline? I'd like to read it.

As you may already know, parents from ABC of Guilford County that included one SUBSTANTIAL contributor, raised over $9,000 to outfit this fine group of young men in 2004. This was a GREAT example of the positive affect a group of people can have on the school system when working as a partnership. When the school system alienates parents/taxpayers, they are less likely to support such causes.

What a shame! The BOE had an opportunity to use 800+ parents/taxpayers to influence positive change. Instead, they chose to put their ego first and "fight" the parents. Time has proven and will continue to prove that this costly lottery experiment has failed and that the BOE missed a HUGE opportunity to get a large organized group to be the nucleus of community involvement in schools.

Hooray for the drumline! BOOOOOOOOOOOO to the BOE and Grier!

Barbara Ann said:

See you are burning the midnight oil, Tim.

I think "The Beat Goes On" is referring to a recent letter to the editor in N & R (you can pull up on line) by a person who wrote that they did not know of gangs any Aycock. This person made reference to the drumline in their letter.

So right about the positive influence a group of parents can have in our schools. What a waste of energy and talent to not listen to the parents who do care what goes on in our schools.

As we all know, there have been reports of gangs at many schools - are now some at our own SW schools. I had heard that after the Kieser mom (I think she was from Kieser) came to the SB meeting a few weeks ago with her lawyer and wanted her kid transferred under NCLB (violent school provision), that several parents were told to write letters to the newspaper saying "no gangs; no problems at our schools." (not saying this is the case on the recent letter on Aycock) We all know how PR works.

As we have said before "if you believe it to be true, it's true".

Until the BOE and administration are willing to admit our schools have problems, how can we fix problems that "do not exist". Activities Drumline, sports and community service groups could help many of our schools in the right direction. The recent meetings the police had with school board members on gangs proves problems do exist. The question is what will the school board members and the admin do about these problems in our schools? The article in the newspaper left that impression also.

Buckmtn said:

It would be interesting to know if those arrested at SWHS were lotteried-in from outside of the old SW district.

bruce buchanan said:

Gosh, General, let me call him and ask!

Seriously, I checked into this on Monday. I asked the reporter who covers the High Point Police what school-related reports she had seen. She said things had been quite; there wasn't anything out-of-the-ordinary, either any major incidents or a high volume of lesser incidents. In fact, she said things appear quiet.

I'd be glad to do some more checking. But I need some specifics. If someone has any information, please call me at 373-7078 or e-mail me at bbuchanan@news-record.com. You don't have to give your name, if you don't want.

Git off your butt! said:

Bruce,

I wouldn't call 8 bags of maryjane "quiet"...well, I guess that depends on what usually goes on. Maybe the usual arrest at Andrews is 20 or 30 bags, so maybe 8 is no big deal?

If this reporter that you asked stated that "things appear quiet, nothing out of the 'ordinary'" then I'd find a new source. Hey, maybe YOU could do it yourself!

Shame on the N&R. I think unless the news is dropped in your lap, you don't report it. You're a REPORTER, not a lapdog. Get off your butt and investigate...unless of course you've been told not to by some big, intimating superintendent.

bruce buchanan said:

Well, that's what I'm trying to do. That's why I need some information!

Michelle said:

I, too, am kind of interested in crime at my child's school. I heard from an employee the other day that at Lincoln, the ice cream machine was vandalized over the weekend. I assume that this also means that someone illegally gained access to the school. I asked two children the day I found out about the ice cream incident, if the principal had said anything to the students. They told me that he had made an announcement that there had been THREE incidents of vandalism at the school so far. We hear NOTHING about this. Many times, I BELIEVE that the schools are not reporting these things to the police. However, the Monday after the ice cream incident, The SBI was at the school, so I think that in that instance, the police were notified. Was this reported on? I mean, I know it is ice cream and not drugs, but that is my child's school that is being broken into, and I would like to be made aware of this. What is the school administration's resposibility when it comes to this type of thing?

Thank you.

Barbara Ann said:

General,

Now that you mention it I saw that award for Central reported in the newspaper the other day and noticed the same group mentioned Page getting one also.

I thought EVERY school in Guilford County is supposed to be tobacoo free - on the school grounds, at sports activities, etc. Why didn't all the schools get this award?

Bruce can you clarify this award when all GCS have been deemed tobacco free? (although we still know it is just like the song, "Smokin in the Boys' Room" - girls' room too)

Thank you for clarifying this.

jwg said:

Bruce,

According to the High Point police "Police to Citizens" web site (http://p2c.high-point.net/Summary.aspx), there have been 17 arrests made at 4364 Barrow Rd., High Point (the address for Southwest HS)since August 26 (three occurred on November 1). No details are given in the search results.

There were also 24 'incidents' such as simple posession, assault, etc. Officer Daryle Duane Willis (#476) appears to be the officer filing most of the reports.

Biff said:

It would be interesting as the General says to see if these arrests where students who transferred in. Bruce?

Maybe this is one of those "positive" results of the IT Plan.

Barbara Ann said:

BRUCE,

WHAT ABOUT THE "SMOKE-FREE" AWARDS AT A FEW SCHOOLS ONLY? I THOUGHT ALL OF GCS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE TOBACCO FREE????

CAN YOU CLERIFY THE DIFFERENCE WHY ONLY TWO SCHOOL RECEIVED AWARDS??

BA

bruce buchanan said:

GCS does have a district-wide tobacco-free policy, Barbara Ann. It's been in place for a couple of years now and applies to all school properties, even when school isn't in session.

In fact, there's one school board member who has to go to the public sidewalk in front of the Eugene Street office to smoke, since smoking on school property itself is banned.

I don't know why these schools were recognized. Maybe they've done a lot to educate students about the dangers of tobacco.

Post a comment

Users who post comments to this blog tacitly agree to observe the News & Record Online Service Terms of Use and Content Submission Agreement. Comments which do not adhere to the terms of this agreement may be removed and the submitter may be banned from further participation. Please use the feedback form at the bottom of any page to report abuse of this feature.

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT

Search

Channels
Font Size
Tools
Question, Comment or Suggestion? Please contact us.

News & Record and NRinteractive

200 E. Market Street, Greensboro, NC 27401 (336) 373-7000 (800) 553-6880
1813 N. Main Street, High Point, NC 27262 (336) 883-4422
203 E. Harris Place, Eden, NC 27288 (336) 627-1781
4213 S. Church Street, Burlington, NC 27215 (336) 449-7064

Copyright (C) 2008 News & Record and Landmark Communications, Inc.