News-Record.com

There's a whole realm of AP's that would be interesting to see/discuss/investigate: For example, a student that gets an "A" in the class but obtains an 2 or less on the actual exam. What does that say about some of our AP classes? Granted, a student could just have a bad day, or may not be a good test taker, but it happens more than Grier would like to discuss.

Do the AP results track statistically along with the overall graduation rates from college after, would you think?

If these are supposed to be college-level courses, which college are they supposed to emulate? At the middle colleges, I assume it's the host schools. If so, does this mean Greensboro College classes are harder for the high schoolers to pass than Guilford's? Can't really say, of course, since just 2 took the exams at Greensboro Middle College.

And it still begs for explanations at such vaunyed schools as Northwest and Grimsley: I would make an eduacted guess the teachers at those high schools are not PhDs, and so to have them granting college-level credit and yet largely unable to coach their students past a pitiful D average for the class is outrageous! No wonder China and India are getting a larger and larger number of their own staying in those countries to attend their up-and-coming universities. here, we do nothing but remediation for the majority of ill-prepared students.

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

I want these people on double secret probation.

But seriously, just wait until the full school scores finally get released. I guess Dr. Z is still putting the spin on those low scores.

The School Board should be commended for further dumbing down the system. No doubt Dot Kearns will notice that Grimsley, Ragsdale, and NW are still above 50%; looks like they could use a little of that HP busin' to fix this problem.

Are the courses connected to the AP tests taught by people with college-qualified credentials (PhDs and terminal Masters degrees)?
If not, I am not surprised the average is so pitifuly low. Even vaunted schools Grimsley and Northwest barely get a D out of their students on average! Sad. Of course, I imagine the young people at Guilford's middle college, the cream of the public school system, are taking many classes with college professors, who are actually able to impart the information and train their minds.

It's time high schools ended this charade. I understand students get extra GPA points for getting passing or good grades in these faux-college courses. Shame on the administrators for giving these youngsters a false sense of accomplishment. Many, many will spend their college careers playing catch-up ball.

I apologize for the double post. My computer has been lagging and it looked at first as if nothing posted.

Students are being pushed to take AP instead of honors, even when they a) don't want too, or b) aren't prepared. If they score some unknown percentage on eoc, eog's they are placed into many classes that they aren't capable of doing. Also, many colleges don't accept these classes or scores.. much of it is a misconception. Supposedly the students do better in college even if they don't pass the exams. Makes you wonder.

Many questions should be asked, as someone said. Are students getting a's and b's and only 6% pass the AP's. That would mean the level of class and prep are not adequate (I could say that for every school)- but really 6%!!! Are the students misled by the high grades they receive, but aren't really learning the materials? Are the teachers giving high grades to help the GPA of students? It should be obvious that there is a real issue here.

I think (Jennifer/Morgan can you find this) that the percentage passing has dropped with the rise of test/students, in other words the more students the more water downed the classes and learning has become. I know that the rates have dropped almost 10% in 5 years, but don't know if that is an up and down thing, or just down, down, down. It would be interesting to see the individual schools, keeping in mind that Grimsley and NW only offer traditional classes so that should be half the amount of opportunity to take a high number of classes, but they have the highest amount passing (don't include Early College)-- that should be a strong arguement that block does not give enough time to prepare for AP classes. Yet we don't have enough money for Smith to go back to traditional, what a waste!

My friends son took AP history. He got a 3 having scored A's all year.
The thing is they can't lie or fugde the AP tests or results since they are officialised by someone else.
Jennifer, is there any simliar document for last years results so we can compare any improvement or..

M,

I'll check on data from previous years.

Re: block vs. traditional. One of the arguments against block is that students taking the AP tests finish their courses in first semester, long before AP exams are given in the spring.

6% of 19 is 1.1--just in case anyone was wondering... (Dudley's AP results)

So basically, ONE student at Dudley can proudly proclaim that they have passed an AP exam? Some of us are thinking "okay, so 18 kids were poorly prepared". I'm thinking, "Ok, about 15 kids shouldn't have been in the AP course to begin with." What did they get out of it? And I wonder what they would have gotten out of a class that was more of a "fit" for them.

I'm not singling out Dudley, just using them for an example since they had the lowest passing rate.

Not even the Spin Dr. can make that look good. And what is the cost to administer each AP test?

Someone please do the math on that.

It's obvious that AP courses are being pushed on kids. I know who's doing the pushing too. I hope he's sleeping okay these days.

SORRY, my bad. I see, I misinterpreted the numbers above. Dudley had 19 passing scores. Still, dismal and a wake up call that kids are inappropriately placed in AP classes for the greater good of this appropriately named, "feel good system".

I just had a thought.. Don't you have to make a 4 or 5 on the test to get college credit? If so, why are the stats for grade 3 and above..

My child took ap history and I looked at the report and it said 3,4,5 are passing but some colleges only accept 4's or 5's. Some will accept 3's, so it depends on the college.

My child took ap history and I looked at the report and it said 3,4,5 are passing but some colleges only accept 4's or 5's. Some will accept 3's, so it depends on the college.

Has anyone ever sat down with his or her child to work out the 4 years at a HS with a block schedule?
Its tough. Its too many courses so you end up forced to taking a lot of AP classes especially if you start up with Honors pretty quickly. It’s all too rushed for my liking. What is the rush?

The rush is Block schedule.

Basically block forces you to take TOO many courses and it also does not help you to pass a course one bit. You study something in the fall. Forget about it for another semester and then take an exam? You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see that even for a bright child it will be difficult.

The BS of all this is that the two schools that need help the least and that probably have the most fortunate children are not on block schedule (Grimsley and NW). All of our struggling High schools need to be moved to a traditional schedule NOW!!!!

Grier refused to let Central move to a traditional schedule this year even though the auditors recommended it. He said it was too expensive. It was too expensive for him because it’s like emphasizing the basics. What a waste of money! He wants to spend money on fancy programs!

This is one other thing that Grier has brought us and this complacent society of Guilford County has accepted.

Shame on us! Shame on you Bubba!

Lord listen to our prayers and fire Grier now!

"A 3 or higher can earn a student college credit" Jennifer

Jennifer,

It depends on what the particular college accepts. For instance, Wake and Duke will only accept 4 or higher. And then Wake will accept a 5 for AP World History; Duke will not accept credit for AP World even with a 5. So it also depends on the AP subject. Many colleges do not accept 3s.

Freddie,

Where is your data to support your statement that students at Grimsley are passing AP exams and making a D in the course?

To anyone re block scheduling.

I can say at SWH which is on block that ample review and tutoring is given for AP exams. Students who took the class in spring can stay for after school tutoring or morning review. A course like AP Chem which is all year (lab the 2nd semester) reviews in the class. Also students can purchase AP review books at the local book store (similar to SAT prep). The students who take the time to get up early for the review classes see to do fine.

I do agree with whoever said that many students who cannot pass these classes my be influenced to take them anyway. This only sets them up to fail.

I can tell you that at SWH these ARE NOT watered down courses. The work is intense. It takes many hours of study. In particular AP English requires lots of reading, analyzing and writing and lots of TIME. The courses are truly college level. I have observed this from all the time my daughter has put in and some of her friends.

also about students "passing or getting grades for GPA from faux college courses"

In AP English only 2 As were given out in the entire class. Last year for AP World it was a similar situation. To get an A in these classes a student had to go above and beyond. I have not observed any of the AP teaches just giving out A s. I know of one of the top 10 students who jsut "didn't get" AP Stats. Her parents paid for a private tutor so she could get higher than a D. So just giving out high grades doesn't happen at SW. I can't speak for other schools.

Barbara Ann you are a parent that takes a lot of interest in her daughter. There a lot of parents that dont. If you take a course in the first semester and you take the exam in the second it has to be a lot harder. Looking at Southwest's results they were pretty dismal (32% pass rate). It seems to me to be dipping down to the level of its sister schools Central and Andrews.

In the old days not so long ago SW was a better school than Ragsdale and Page.

Now it looks like if you want your child to pass AP then you had better be at the above schools instead of SW.

The indicators are that the SB has done what many had predicted. We now have three weak schools in High Point.

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE SCHOOL BOARD AND TERRY GRIER!!!!!!

Lord hear our prayers and fire Terry Grier ASAP!

Morgan or Jennifer,

What's the total cost of exams and tutoring classes incurred by the district for almost 8,000 tests taken? Didn;t I see something recently that this cost is in the neighborhood of $500,000? If so, that's a fancy neighborhood. Also, can you give us some idea of what the total is of 4 and 5 scores only, as it seems that this is the real benchmark?

It would seem that the premise of Newsweek's Best High Schools report is as leaky as a colander.

MooMoo

It could be harder for some to take a first semester course and pass. It is truly up to the student. There are kids in 10th grade who don't drive and couldn't make it to the early morning reviews because they didn't have a ride. Most parents/kids car pool for these and figure it out. Then again my daughter has a friend who does fairly well in school, has two super parents but did not want to get up early and miss an hour of putting on her make-up so she just chose not to take the review. This will even become more of an issue for all the students who are bussed across town. Also you can buy all the review books you want but if the child doesn't use them, it's a waste of money. (For AP Latin there is no published review book.)

The scores of passing at SWH were dismal. This must be an indicator of many being in these classes who can't cut it. I have known kids to drop out of AP classes after one week and switch to honors when they saw the work and time would be involved for the class in the sylabus. It's also could be a result of the bussing and lack of transportaion for turoring. (I fear the same will happen to the sports at the schools involved with busing across town.)

Stormy, the AP review is with the same teachers either before or after school. They coordinate the schedules. I don't know if they are paid extra. This year with AP Latin and AP Chem the review was done in class. AP English was first semester and their was extensive review. I believe AP US History was after school. ($500,000 was the cost of "racial healing". Now wouldn't that money be better spent on remedial reading classes, tutoring, etc. for students who need it.)

I can say in our personal situation, my daughter would be lost and bored without honor and particularly AP classes. We would have had to put out for private school. (Or we should have not moved here and stayed in Virginia Beach schools.) AL learners deserve to have their academic needs met too, not just struggling students. Their parents pay taxes for public school. Many of these parents volunteer from early on. These students are our future scientists, leaders, etc. I do believe there needs to be a better screening process of academic background and IQs to see who is really suitable to take and pass an AP course. All students aren't capable of the work just because they did well on a previous standardized test.

Regarding tests vs class work. There are some students who can do the work, the projects, put in the time and produce high grades. When it comes to an overall test for the entire material, they forget some of the subject matter or don't get the total concept, they learn by "week to week" or "lesson to lesson". The same situation happens in elementary school. There are intelligent, hard working students who bomb the EOGs. They might know the the material but can't recognize and analyze it in questions. They don't know how to "apply" what they have learned.

If only 60-ish% passed their AP exams at a school, that is equivalent to a D overall for the entiredid pass the AP exam, of course), or is my math off?

The 60+% who passed all got 3s, 4s, and 5s (3=C, 4=B, 5=A?), but 35+% received 1s and 2s (are there less than 1s?), which would be equivalent to Ds and Fs.

The mean grade for the entire class could even be better than a C, if the majority of the 60+% who passed the APs received 4s and 5s.

So, Bravo, the best and brightest (as those who are admitted into AP courses are advertised) at our premeir high schools may well be averaging a C+ as a class!

I stand behind my contention that these courses are falsely sold as college-level credit.

Sorry for the missing words above. To repost:

"If only 60-ish% passed their AP exams at a school, that is equivalent to a D overall for the entire class's performance (not for the individual students who did pass the AP exam, of course)."

And Barbara Ann, have all the teachers who direct these AP courses at SW or any other school qualified with their terminal degrees (PhDs or MA/MFA/MSW, etc.), so that they would be able to teach these same courses at an actual college? I know I was told when looking at a job in the county that a teacher with less education and expertise than I have (I teach at the college level with a terminal degree) would be given first dibs on AP because this teacher has seniority within the public school system, even if said teacher had never taught college, never received a terminal degree.

I will retract one thing: a class average of C+ in a good college course is fine. Really, it is the lower scores overall at all but three high schools that are disturbing.

Barbara Ann,

It's true that GCS had $500,000 for racial healing this past year, but that is ot what I was thinking of. What I was thinking of was the following comment from next year's budget:

• High school students, who will recieve more help with SAT and end-of-course test preparation. Cost: $592,353

I don't suppose that this includes AP tests. My understanding is that AP tests cost more than $80 each. AP test guides sell for $15-$20 each. Do teachers who do reviews after school get paid extra? If we administered 8,000 AP exams in the past year, it would not be unreasonable to beleive that the cost was well in excess of $500,000 to taxpayers, perhaps, more than $800,000. Are we getting our monies worth here, when we are pushing students into AP classes and taking the tests when they are not really prepared for them?

DDDeena will be happy. The acheivement gap in High Point is finally closing.
Good job DDDeena.

Perhaps the reason they can't "apply" the knowledge is that they don't "know" it: they simply memorize factoids. Bloom's taxonomy lists this as the lowest level of information-retention/"learning".

College courses must challenge and test students on the "application" of information, not just retention. Otherwise, it's not college-level work. Period.

Beyond "application", in fact, college-level thinking eventually demands "synthesis and integration". Is it possible high school teenagers are simply not matured enough in their actual, physical brain structure to be able to perform these tasks? Don't brains gain new abilities of abstract, parallel thinking after age 17 or even 20? Or could a well-trained, fully credentialed college instructor/professor manage to better aid young minds to unlock the door to this level of course content and "application"?

We can't have it both ways: either there is a reason college is a worthy goal beyond high school academically, even for first-year students, or it could all be as effectively taught before they quit having "block" or "traditional" schedules, PE and proms.

Come to think of it, college now sounds more and more like high school!

Achievement Gap,

No, I believe it will be Dot Kearns that will be happy. She stated two years ago that she wanted High Point to perceive that it had three equal high schools. She's got 'em. Any semblance of Southwest's former status as a "good" school is now eradicated. Any former imbalance is now erased.

Block schedule is just too many courses for me.
Thats the reason these kids end up in AP classes.

Does anybody have any facts on how many AP classes colleges like to see?

I think the only reason so many kids are taking them is to keep their GPA in line with others.

Is a 4.5 GPA not what it used to be? Do they look at class rank more than GPA?

Colleges will take AP credits over GPA.
AP is administered by the college Board which also administers the SAT.
Of course this is more trustworthy than some school systems. Think about GCS and you can imagine why.
Most good colleges only consider 4 nd 5's though!

Freddy, where did you get 60 ish percent pass rate it is 42%.
Stormy, could not of said it better myself. Dot got her wish.
The current school board has been instrumental in the destruction of a good school.
Shame. No its not a shame its criminal!!

Here is the spin on the bad results from Grier on his Friday notes web page.

"While we are concerned with the percentage and number of students scoring three or higher on AP exams at a number of our high schools, we are committed to working with the staffs of these schools to strengthen their programs. We are very pleased with our over-all results and would like to single out Northwest High for the significant increases the school had in both the number of students taking one or more AP courses and in the number of AP exams taken".

There are several things to consider with AP classes. First of all other high schools offer them across the country. So if you want to compete, they must be offered.

Colleges would rather see a C or a B in an AP class than an A in an honors class. You have to offer them or you child is out of the "loop" for the better colleges. As we all know "CP" is definitely misnamed. These aren't "college prep" at all.

I know of a student at SW who ended in the top 10 of his junior class. He could easily have made a B in an AP class but chose to do Honors as he has a "phobia" about not making all "A's". There are many who just don't want a demanding schedule.

What also happens in junior year kids have a lot of other things going on: driving, dating, sports and many work jobs several hours a week on top of this. It takes focus, commitment and time for most of the AP courses at SW. Above all, it takes time management and sacrifice to take a heavy course load and succeed.

Freddie, the grading at 1 thru 5 is not like F thru A. It is just a number like "3" is passing.

Yes Freddie many of the teachers at SW are very qualified. One is a top graduate of Wake. The AP English teacher is transferring to Northwest or Northern. It is a truly an intense class. I should show you some of the projects from that particular class. A friend of mine who is an English professor in Virginia said he hasn't done projects that complicated. And yes there are young students who can integrate and apply information. Many of the papers and projects demand this kind of thinking. It takes creative thinking. That is why so many students can't cut it. It takes intelligence, maturity and focus.

Colleges do look at class ranking. Both GPA and weighted GPA are listed on transcripts. Above all they really look at SAT scores. They consider many things, but GPA is right up there.

I agree that too many students are pushed to take classes who cannot do the work. The problem is a catch 22. You had schools, like Andrews, for example, where parents whose kids were redistricted there in 1999 complained there were not enough AP classes. Then you have recent situations where not enough kids applied so the classes were cancelled. In that case, I would suggest lowering the class size minimum for AP classes rather than set kids up to fail.

If it were me, I would put all technical classes and courses that would go into a two year college in one high school and put upper level classes in another high school. Schools could specialize by ability and education strands. That way you would save on resources, but it won't happen in Guilford County.

Another problem if you took a school like Dudley or Smith where that have a majority black population and reduced the number of available AP classes because of their low scores, people would scream their favorite word in this county, "racism", that they weren't getting equal opportunities.

In considering the higher passing rate at NW and Grimsley (beside having tradtional schedules), you also need to consider other factors like most students come from two parent families. There are different home backgrounds and support systems in place. Look at the many resources (not to consider sports facilities) that some of our high schools get over others. Some schools can't even fit all their students in a cafeteria; others don't even have tennis courts, etc.

I totally agree with Stormy about Newsweek and their rankings. We all know this. How could one of the lowest schools in the state be rated a top school? But look at it this way. This is only one indicator. Think of all the other bad schools in the country that are also in their report. It's not just here. It's one magazines opinion of one indicator.

Freddie,

Many students take the AP classes to be challenged. Otherwise they would be totally bored. They also take it to have competitive GPAs. And why would anyone take an AP class and bust their butts doing all the work if an A was just a "4" like a CP class?

The standard testing at the end of the year is a separate issue. If you can get the college credit, great. But truthfully in building type courses like Math and Science (stats, chemistry, etc.) you will need to take these in college anyway. It is hard to remember what you learned in a 10th grade stat class by freshman year of college. Most kids that take these courses know this.

Our accelerated learners deserve these advanced courses just like children who are slow learners, have speech problems, are physically handicapped, etc. receive an education to meet their needs. In fact, we should put more resources early on into our advance learners.

What about the $100,000 elevator put in a high school to serve one student? Every child who is a US citizen deserves the right to an education.

We are still wasting our tax dollars on kids who have behavioral issues or paying for kids who are not US citizens.

I would rather pay for someone who will make it in this world and might invent a cure for cancer then someone who is just going to drop out of school when they are old enough, and probably live off the welfare system. At least the student who is committed to excel can make a difference in the world.

And one clarification. I am for educating ALL students to the best of their ability so they will not eventually drop out, will be able to find a decent job and be successful. The problems start in society, at home and on the streets. My point is we spin our wheels over saving a few who don't make the effort to be "saved". By high school age students need to take responsbility for their own actions.

All children are good at something. They just all don't learn on the same level. This has always been the case in school. It's IQ, maturity, support network, home life, etc. There does need to be alternative school settings for the one child who jeopardizes the learning process of other students because he or she continually disrupts the class.

As Anita said at one of the meetings, she would rather see one student suspended if they are causing 10 others not to learn.

Back to AP, in conclusion, I agree the test results are dismal. I agree Newsweek is not an accurate indicator of a "good" school. Do you propose giving up and not offering AP courses at all? That would be further dummying down. We need to pull all our students up - the slow learners, the average and yes the high achievers. It has to start long before high school. Putting students who aren't capable to do AP work in an AP class is not the answer.

"college is a worthy goal beyond high school academically" Freddie

Fdd, you have to get to college first. AP classes help you get into college.

About the teachers who teach them....I have had some college professors who were idiots. A masters degree or a Ph D does not necessary make you smart. Look around you. There are egghead professors who might know the material but can't teach worth a lick.

Surely the question here is why only 42% pass these AP exams (3 and above). YOu will get bad teachers anywhere and AP classes are definitely worth it to for those that can handle it ( those kids that scored below 3 arent probably feeling too good either).
The fact is that something is wrong. Its another concrete result of a failed school system. No excuses, no spinning. I want to see the board put real pressure on Grier for an explanation and a plan of action to improve.
Better still fire him.
Lord hear our prayers.

Okay, I agree the smartest kids in high school need to be challenged so they aren't bored. But why can't a good HIGH SCHOOL course do that? Why dress it up as a pseudo-college-level course? I am sure the savvy college admission officers already discount for the inflated grades, anyway (especially with the SAT scores often being far less impressive than the GPAs).

Barbara Ann, your tiered system of high school education sounds like a recipe for further economic stratification of our society. More culinary arts middle colleges, while we're at it!

Moomoo, my reference to 60-ish% was for Grimsley & Northwest, specifically.

Finally, while I am glad to hear there are wonderful AP teachers, of which I have no doubt, my concern from the start has been the illusion that the school system has presented that these AP classes ARE college courses. They aren't. SOME colleges will accept the credit for the best scores on the AP tests, but NONE accept the "credit" for the course alone.

When one goes to college, one actually can petition to take an exam which will place one out of any course you ever want to take (little known fact; and little used tactic...since the odds of passing are very poor for the majority of students).

My original question, however, has not been answered: do these high school AP teachers have PhDs? Terminal Masters' degrees? If they don't, the schools should not advertise these classes as if they were college courses. Not even a community college worth its salt will have many courses taught by under-credentialed instructors. The caveat here, of course, are the many, many courses pawned off at research universities on underprepared graduate assistants, in lieu of tenured professors. That is a whole other crying shame.

AP classes are advertised as Advanced Placement not college courses. The subject matter, time involved, and what is expected to make an "A" is a true taste of what a college will be like. (This is why some kids transfer out after the first week.) "CP" or "college prep" is NOT college prep.

"Why can't a good high school course do that?" Freddie

I guess it could if there were good high school courses. But how would you differentiate that course to highly successful students vs those who couldn't do the work? What criteria would you use for entry? How would you let potential colleges know this? Do you let in students who would just waste the teacher's time? (Apparently that may be happening now with some of our students/teachers who aren't passing the AP exams.)

AP courses are offered throughout many high schools in the U.S. Colleges look strongly at AP classes taken for scholarship considerations. A "B" in AP is counted more than an "A" in and Honors course. To have a competive edge you need AP classes or a baccalaureate program. You need a level playing field.

My nieces who all graduated from a small high school in Alabama are envious that they don't have AP classes at their high schools. They have some Honors coures but not AP. Two of them had to start at a 2 year college then transfer to Auburn. The one who started immediately at Auburn was top in her high school class but truly struggled the first year. Many of the other freshman had AP classes and were better prepared the first year.

And yes SAT scores and students who have high GPAs usually go hand in hand. You can see which students receive scholarships and follow what it takes. It's a total package along with community service. Counselors will tell affirm this.

To "The Question" I would think the answer lies in not pushing students who can't do the work or have no interest into these courses. But like I mentioned what do you do at the low performing schools, not offer them at all? Some students do want these courses and are very capable. I think there should be a better screening process to see who wants to take them, who is capable based on past performance and previous courses taken, and lower the minimum number of students required in order to have an AP class. I had previously written this suggestion (about lowering the minimum number of students) to T. Grier and the School Board specifically about Andrews. Some of us have talked to parents whose kids were all excited about taking AP classes, then the class was cancelled because there weren't enough students taking the class. That is frustrating to parents who have been forced to redistrict and lost this opportunity (not to mention soccer, volley ball, orchestra) Of course, I really didn't get a response to my suggestion.

I would also think we need the strong, experienced teachers teaching AP courses. But some of the best teachers won't go to the struggling schools who have the lowest number of passing students. Also what good would that do if these students don't have a strong foundation first? (Note as of last school board meeting they hadn't found many takers for Mission Possible for the high schools.) Then if all the best teachers transfer out what happens to the schools that were fairly successful? I belive some school board members have asked this question. We know many teachers are leaving. Specifically, it's tough to find capable math and science teachers.

Lots of questions but where are the answers?

Well, Barbara Ann, I am glad you now retract your earlier statement that these AP courses are "truly college level". They may be similar in some ways when seen relative to the "usual" high school courses, but they are not on par with a course at Chapel Hill, for instance (at least, I hope not).

I am glad there are demading courses, certainly. Is the main purpose of the AP courses to perpetuate a collegiate/economic class pecking order, hence your concern in "differentiating", and cluing in the colleges, for example?

The purpose of a college admissions essay, I presume, is to gain insight into a candidate's skills of thinking/writing. Their SATs cover a lot of academic ground. GPAs add up, too, and I don't doubt there are weights given for AP vs. other courses. But if the initial thought of a student is "I need to take this so it looks good on my application", or "I can get extra GPA points", my suspicion is, they will have a hell of a time really engaging the material and concepts on the merits of the subject. Learning is usually deeply diluted when combined with social-climbing and grade-hoarding.

On the other hand, I am great fan of Beckett: "Ever tried? Ever failed? Try again. Fail again. Fail better."

Weel, I am glad that is over and we can all be friends again (joke).

More friday notes below.

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The College Board recently released Guilford County Schools' (GCS) 2005-06 Advanced Placement (AP) results. During the past school year, 4,149 GCS students took 7,993 AP exams. Each of these categories represents all-time highs for the district. Of the students taking the exams, 42.4 percent scored three or higher. We have made great strides in increasing the number of students taking AP courses and exams since the 1999-00 school years when 1,715 students took 2,864 exams, with 53 percent of those students scoring three or higher on the exams.
We have seen a strong correlation between this increase in academic rigor in our high schools and the amount of scholarship dollars offered to our students each year. For example, in 2000 approximately $28.3 million in scholarships was offered to GCS students as compared to approximately $55.7 million during the past school year.

%%%
So, according to Grier its good for everyone to take AP classes. Now, is it good that so many fail (above 50%)? Do we buy that the increased scholoraship money has to do with the increased amount of kids taking AP classes?

Can you get to college with a bunch of failed AP exams?

Jennifer, any news on last years AP data so we can compare?

Freddie,

fyi I did NOT retract my statement that AP are not college level. I said they aren't advertised that way. From what I have observed of the classes my daughter has taken, they are. My husband will concur this on her Chemistry AP class. (that was not my forte - he knows more in the science fields to compare) I do know a lot of the top kids couldn't handle Stats, for instance.

Students can ONLY get extra GPA and high rankings if they can pass the course with an A or a B (weighted at a 6 or a 5) There aren't many A's given out (one or two in some classes)and probably more C's than anything - at least at SWH.

Many students I know find it is not worth the extra GPA points because of the time involved in taking the class. They can take an Honors Class, get a B and still have a "4" GPA. Others know what the certain teachers expect from their AP class so they avoid it like the plague. Like I said they are not for every student and we shouldn't push "every" student into them. Kids who take them need to be able to balance school time, social time, work time, etc. Many kids choose not to put the effort in and would rather focus on things like sports.

In our situation, we would not be in public high school if it wasn't for the many AP classes that are offered. This is one reason we chose SWH when we moved to this area ten years ago. We studied all the test scores and rankings for almost a year before we chose a school. (Unfortunately SWH has been declining in their scores) Looking back, with all the High Point mess, we would have chosen NW or gone private or more than likely stayed in Virginia Beach if we had known the school situation here. Personally, I only have good things to say about AP in our daughter's situation. As for the many students who aren't making a "3", yes there is a problem.

wrong kids taking? teachers can't teach? kids don't go for tutoring review? or all of the above

I do know AP classes are here to stay. Parents who have been redistricted to schools without many AP classes want more of them. And that is the trend nationwide.

And yes, the better colleges do give more weight to a student's application if they have taken an AP class. A "B" or even a "C" in an AP class is looked upon more favorable than an "A" in an Honors class.

MooMoo - I would think that students who fail a bunch of AP classes aren't doing that well in the first place. With a decent SAT you can get in some college. Getting into A & T or Chowan or GTCC would not be the same criteria (SAT or otherwise) to get into Duke or Harvard.

I am sorry to hear of your grave disappointments after moving here, BA. I would be just as upset had that been my experience. We plan to move elsewhere before our child gets to middle school age. Either that or home school. Both my wife and I ahve advanced degrees and work in education. I can feel your pain on the science/math front, though, and I'll have to hit the books hard myself to stay on top of it if we do go the home-schooling route.

I took your statement that the AP classes aren't advertised as college level to be an admission of said reality. Guess not. You contend they give a "true taste of what college is like". What constitutes "taste" here? Volume of work? That isn't the half of the "true" college course experience, in my opinion. Not counting frats and beer, there's supposed to be a real push for abstract conceptualization beyond even waht science and math offer: it may even include philosophy. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans now scoff at college being anything more than job training.

I still have not heard whether the AP teachers are accredited as college-level instructors. If so, which association of colleges has granted such accreditation? There exist very stringent guidelines set forth by major bodies overseeing academic rigor. I am mostly certain, especially without instructors with terminal degrees, these AP courses would not qualify.

Jennifer, Morgan,

When does GCS expect to release AYP results? Isn't this public information and shouldn't you be able to get it directly from the State if the county won't release it???

Quest,

They just announced a press conference for 10 a.m. Tuesday to release the data. It will be preliminary, however, and incomplete for elementary and middle schools. Remember, math end-of-grade scores won't be available until Oct. 5 because the state needs to set passing rates for the updated tests.

Seven days making up excuses.

Jennifer, will we get AP results from last year?

Quest, thanks for changing the subject. Where indeed are these overdue AYP scores?

Mr. Nicety,

You have your opinion on AP and I have mine. You may be right about teachers not being accredited as college-level instructors. But that is not the requirement to teach AP and it is the same across the country. So it's a level playing field.

I can just speak on what I have observed from the work my daughter has had in these classes. She had sacrificed a lot of personal time but she is excellent at time management. We have been very pleased with the AP classes and the level of instruction. I have no complaints how she is doing in school.

As for Guilford County, we were shocked when we moved here to learn that no school had been built in 17 years (then Pilot Elementary came along). In other parts of the country schools keep up with the growth. Not so here. Of course, that also depends on the tax base.

My daughter is currently in a special two week scholarship program in Westmoreland County NY. The first week they are in a local high school. She told me the school is 2 years old, much larger than Grimsley and their total school population is - get this - 600 students! One instructor said they built if for "extra space". Imagine that. On the way to school she passed huge, old mansions so I am sure they money to build schools there is not a problem. Needless to say because of the high taxes in many areas of NY, people move south to retire. By that time, their interest is not in supporting schools.

Children who have high IQs, who are focused and have strong parental support will always succeed. It is the average students or the ones who struggle that need the extra help. I would like to see more money put into remedial classes, mandatory tutoring, etc. long before high school. At the bare minimum all high school students should be able to read at an 8th grade level.

With social passing, this is not the case. We continually set many students up to fail. They become frustrated, act out and eventually drop out.

Good luck with homeschooling. I have a friend in Charlotte who has homeschooled for years. When the kids get to high school age and the specialized subjects, they have teachers who teach one or two subjects like the higher maths. They rotate between houses. Many still participate in sports and have other social get togethers. There's a huge homeschool convention every May in Winston-Salem so you might pick up some tips there.

Correction to my post - it is Westchester County, NY (not Westmoreland)

BA-

I just spent some time up in Westchester County myself. I know th gawking feeling well. The way property taxes have become the basis for eduacting kids is a sin. What if the US government gave every child a voucher for a reasonable amount for use at any public school of their choice? It would help rearrange our neighborhoods and lessen the self-segregation. It would drive down property values in the inflated areas. It would allow first-time and lower income buyers to live in safer neighborhoods.

The one worry I have is your emphasis on IQ scores: they notoriously "measure" extremely limited skill sets. Howard Gardner's research has given us ample new areas of competence which might all be highlighted: musical and visual skills, spatial intelligence, etc.

Fred Nicety,

This will be short (can you believe it-lots to do today.)

I am all for vouchers. On that we can agree.

As for property taxes, in areas say like Virginia Beach it not only comes from property taxes (which when I lived there were actually low - but cost of housing now is over the top) but from a strong tourism business - food tax and lodging taxes.

By IQ I meant overall intelligence, drive, perseverance, hard work - a whole total concept of what contributes to success. If you know your kid and spend lot of time with them from developmental years forward, it doesn't take much testing to tell about your child - whether it be intelligence, gifted in music, art, or learning disabilities. Some parents just "know". Then there are other challenges that go with the territory especially when they are teens.

Enjoy the week. Have to get ready for my trip to NY.

Let's all see what the AYP scores have to say.

Guilford Count pays for every AP test taken, at $83 per test. So, 7,993 tests cost the county $663,419; if 42.4% passed, $382,129.34 was basically wasted. I suspect that if the county had some sort of reimbursement program--pay for the test and get the money back if you score a 3,4 or 5--some pressure might be on students to either work harder or reconsider taking the courses in the first place. Or, maybe the county could find a grant to cover the costs or to cover the costs for low-income students.

Of course, it must be the teachers; it could never be the students assigned to the classes. Students are assigned to classes with the proviso that only if their parents sign a waiver specifically requesting that they not take the class will they be assigned elsewhere . . . an odd sort of volunteering for a class; you're in unless you request out, not your in if you request in.

What a total waste of money. What a wonderful resume builder.