News-Record.com

Morgan, can you provide us a link to any excell data you might have on this?
Specifically individual school data.

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I am always frankly shocked to see the averages far below 50% of the possible total score on the SATs. The thing wasn't that hard, as I remember. A nation of mental slackers, we are. Have been for at least a half-century. Blame it on TV and sports.

Statboy, the information I was provided was in e-mail form. I would have to create an excel file; when I do that I will link to this blog post.

Thanks Morgan.

Taking a quick glance I see that Page and Southeast have quite a drop from last year to this.

Freddy

One factor to consider is that when we went to school only students who planned to attend college took the SATs. Today all students are encouraged to take them whether they want to go to college or not. Remember the large number of students at GTCC taking remedial Math and English
before they can take college courses.

SAT average scores are a very poor indicator of K-12 school performance. That's "poor" as in "inappropriate," rather than just "weak."

According to the College Board...

Media and others often rank states, districts, and schools on the basis of SAT scores despite repeated warnings that such rankings are invalid. The SAT is a strong indicator of trends in the college-bound population, but it should never be used alone for such comparisons because demographics and other non-school factors can have a strong effect on scores. If ranked, schools and states that encourage students to apply to college may be penalized because scores tend to decline with a rise in percentage of test-takers.

Further, the bugaboo of test confidence is at work here yet again. According to ETS, if a student retakes the SAT, a Verbal or Mathematics score (NOT the total) needs to be at least 60 points different to be considered a truly measurable difference in performance. The difference between a 482 and a 485 (or even a 497) is far too small to be meaningful - even if it weren't the case that the comparison isn't valid in the first place because the scores are means of different groups.

Even if GC's 70.3% testing rate compares favorably with the NC overall rate of 71%, there is absolutely no evidence presented here that the tested groups don't differ in important ways - in terms of eventual college attendance, motivation for taking the SAT, retake status, etc. The same dynamic applies for year-to-year mean scores within a school - they are different groups of students, so an observation like "Page and Southeast have quite a drop from last year to this" don't mean anything.

That said, Page's and Southeasts' SAT participation rates and critical reading/math subtotal mean scores have decreased, which would seem to buck the tendency of the opposite to happen (from the first link at the top of the page). THAT might be meaningful, if the difference were greater than the expected wobbliness of the test (which it isn't), and if it could be determined that the population hadn't changed in any way that meant anything.

In short, we need to collectively start using measures like this for their designed purpose. ANY other use is a misuse, contributing to the spin and politiking and diminishing the quality of conversation that should actually be taking place about these issues.

K

No matter what the quote above says, colleges do use the SAT as a large part of the admission process. I know a girl who had 4.9 GPA, top 5% of her class, lots of superlatives, but just an average SAT... UNC didn't accept her and the admin. officer told her it was because of her SAT.

Knestis, you are confusing people with facts and reason.

No one here on the Chalkboard aren't interested in any of that. We already know the answer to any question: Terry Grier is to blame.

So you take your well-reasoned arguments and shuffle on out of here, 'cause we don't take kindly to critical thought in these parts.

To say that we went up because others went down is reaching. I know Dr. Grier is disappointed. However, it does appear that at-risk High Schools are trending up after being flat. Note big increase at Smith. The drops as Page and Southeast are significant and I don't know why.
The bottom line is this: You have to read to get good scores. The BOE and Dr. Grier empasizes the "well-rounded child". Children must read more to score well on these tests. It may be old-fashioned but it is the truth.

I just saw on Fox 8 news that yet another Guilford County School will need "structual remediation" (Jones Elementary). The same engineer (Herman Fox) is allegedly responsible.

Quest,

You should check our Website more often! :) We posted that story at news-record.com about 3:30 p.m.

We'll have more for tomorrow's paper.

I just got back from interviewing some parents and Morgan spoke with officials during a tour of the school late this afternoon.

Jennifer,

My apologies! You're right - I forget to check out your main news page for education news. I automatically go to the Chalkboard for that.

Thanks

Quest,

No worries; I was just teasing you :)

We should have linked the story immediately to the Chalkboard. But as it was breaking news, we were scrambling to get out to the school, find parents, etc. As you can see, I'm just ending my day now with a post on Jones. I wanted to get something up before I left.

So I guess I can go home now :)

Talk to ya later. Have a good night.

Jennifer and Morgan,

You're turning into real investigative reporters. Our students deserve it and our parents need the truth. Thanks for trying to get it.

All justifications aside, let’s get back to basic reality.

Our cream, those desiring college, are underperforming State and Federal averages. Our above average children are receiving preparation that allows them to compete sub-par with their counterparts both within North Carolina and nationally. The School Board and Grier are responsible as they oversaw the significant portion of this preparation. While you can blame them, I have to blame a community that fails to step up and hold them accountable.

We have an organization of business people supporting the status sub-par with $500,000 touting this as success. We cannot expect better when they reward sub-par performance of administrators with praise and promise. You can count on one thing, these kids have been let down and their admissions will be affected. They can thank the community, Action Greensboro, the School Board and Terry Grier, all of whom appear to be deaf! They believe that not going down any further was success. They believe we need more of the same. We now have justified doubling the school Board Members compensation, giving Terry a raise when he said he didn’t deserve it and adding more administrators and increasing our taxes. We may still be sub-par, but at least we aren’t any worse and this should to be celebrated. Will Action Greensboro advertise “Move your company to Guilford County, while our kids can’t compete nationally or even in the state, we offer great programs in food service to prepare your children for the real world and a great future at McDonalds”.

My heart goes out to them.

Our cream, those desiring college, are underperforming State and Federal averages. ...

The problem is Garth, there's no data to support that. You just can't say with any kind of confidence that the 70% of GC kids who take the SAT are the same level of "creaminess" as the 48% of US students as a whole who do.

The data typically support the contention that, when 70% take the test, that sample of the whole population dips more deeply into the pool of students who are less qualified for higher education.

It's also kind of important to decide what priorities are being supported by policies that seem to encourage more students to take the SAT...

It might be that simply taking the SAT makes it more likely that a kid on the margin of pursuing education beyond high school will actually attend college. That's not a bad thing. Unless one takes the view that her inclusion in the applicant pool decreases the chance that a more deserving, higher-achieving, less marginalized kid will get into his school-of-first-choice.

K

Knestis,

Let me add to the debate. A few months ago, the Exec. Acct. & Research Officer for GCS(Gongshu Zhang)gave one of many presentations to the School Board regarding the EOG and EOC scores. He presented charts comparing this year to past years, one socioeconomic group to another, various racial groups, etc.

He also looked at the scores of the highest performing students (those who score a Level IV) on these standardized tests.

Dr. Zhang's comments were stern - we are failing our top performing students. Those top performing students' scores are dropping. We are not challenging them and expecting them to score higher as we are with the other groups.

I would say this is the "cream" of GCS students and we are failing them.

This is how the acheivement gap is closing.

Knestis
Yes, I simplified, if I became more detailed as quest pointed out, it becomes worse, not better. Comparing avg. to avg. shows us in a more favorable light which is bad enough. Guilford County can't handle the reality and how grim our performance is. Making feeble excuses saying we cannot compare is just hiding from the truth, an Action Greensboro approach to civic improvement. If obfuscate the facts, then we need not face reality.
Any idiot can figure out that our drop out rate is among the worst in nation when properly segmented and compared apples to apples.

Our cream at many schools are those that eventually graduate! Let’s all do the Action Greensboro, Yeah Guilford, Yeah Guilford, we are the best…

We have some good things still left that our School Board and Terry haven’t destroyed yet, let’s build on that. But let’s not take the all is well approach, no, never.

As an accountant I am used to the kill the messenger approach. I did not like my 2 undergraduate statistical analysis courses, and graduate stats was to the point of being ridiculous. But I did learn one thing, the best way to lie was with statistics.

Last, but not least, everyone overlooks the emphasis and expense Grier and Board have used to raise these numbers. They paid for and made some of the best students retake the test to get their scores even higher. Many were forced to sit through SAT prep again and retake at taxpayers expense to make our schools look better, yes the stats are skewed, sadly, I am afraid they are more likely to show how poor we are even when we try to manipulate the scores!

YES THE GOAL IS TO CLOSE THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP! WITH ACTION GREENSBORO IT MEANS LOWER THE BEST AND RAISE THE WORST AND WE SUCCEED!

"Unless one takes the view that her inclusion in the application pool....."

KK, I hardly thing this would affect a high achieving student getting in the college of his/her choice. A few more people taking the SAT test might get them into GTCC, A & T, Chowan. Look them up and see the minimum SAT scores required.

GARTH, Great final conclusion. Don't forget if we pull the cream out of school into Early College, pull the struggling students into Middle College and various small academies, the middle range grows bigger in the traditional schools, plus bus a few races around to balance the numbers....Voila! The gap magically disappears. Alas everyone is now drawn into mediocrity as other countries continue to surpass our children.

I highly recommend J. Gatto's "Undergorund History of Education in America". He excellently tracks this trend and designed purpose in public education: the very pull towards mediocracy you cite, Equality4All. It goes back, he finds, to the robber barons of the 19th century who wanted drones for the mines and factories, and later the corporate zombies needed for bland desk work ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

If you polled the vast spectrum of all US colleges, you would find near-universal agreement, I suspect, among professors who would say their freshman classes have become increasingly ill-prepared, anti-intellectual and generally mentally lazy.

Is it entirely the schools' faults? No. The culture bredds this attitude and brain-malaise. Even if more take the SAT, and thus skew the number down, there is little doubt in my mind the overwhelming majority of high school grads in our country are significantly inferior in their knowledge base, math and science abilities, general curiosity and intellectual drive than the billions in Asia and India now attending their own universities more often and then staying there, or coming here and then returning. As our population ages, we now must needs import doctors and even nurses; as we continue to spread and sprawl, we import engineers; soon, all we'll have are number-mongers and burger-flippers. Oh, and far too many artists, actors and real estate agents.

FREDDIE

Once again you have found your niche.

GREAT POST and so true!

Freddy, dont you think that the medical academy at Smith will attract kids that were going to do well anyway?
What the plan for those kids that dont go? The failing kids.

The only change I see from this plan is another item on Griers resume.

First off, is the "medical academy" really a misnomer for "underpaid health care workers changing bedpans and assisting mobility for nursing homes", or does it mean pre-pre-med school? Will it aim to train young people to work in high-tech labs doing medical research on stem cells and implants, or will it show them mostly how to live off government health-clinic subsidies by over-prescribing antibiotics as medical assistants and nurse-practitioners?

If the answers are the academy is aiming to bring exciting newprospects for research by involving average students, not just the "cream", in sound, basic research and critical thinking tasks. The best scenario adds to this innovative teaching that leads to creative brainstorming techniques that can empower young minds to devise their own experiments and dream of new therapies someday.

Timely article in the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/02/education/02college.htmlpagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=8eeedacd42447cbb&ex=1314849600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I know that's a long way to it. Below are a few snippets. A summary: While several state public university sysems now bar admission to students needing extensive remediation, the alternative, community colleges, are having a heck of time passing them through, too. Most report an average of 50% unable to do basic high school math, reading and writing. Only 21% pass all four parts of the ACT areas (math, reading, writing and biology).
Only about the same number (22%) will graduate with a bachelor's degree within six years.

"At Community College of Baltimore County,..(t)he college’s interim vice chancellor for learning and developmental education, Alvin Starr, said he saw students who passed through high school never having read a book cover to cover."

"The sheer numbers of enrollees... who have to take make-up math is overwhelming, with 8,000 last year among the nearly 30,000 degree-seeking students systemwide. Not all those students come directly from high school. Many have taken off a few years and may have forgotten what they learned...20 students who had just burst into tears on receiving their math entrance exam scores ...walked out on college. ...(A)student who failed to hand in a math assignment for the fourth time in the last week of class... learned that he would fail. The student lunged toward the professor and said, “I’ll kill you.”

"Along a wall is a rack of handouts explaining points of grammar that might have last been explicitly taught in middle school, a measure of the immense ground to be made up. One covers comparative adjectives, explaining “more” vs. “most” or “smarter” vs. “smartest.” Another discusses using pronouns and verb tenses."

The article does empathize witht he plight of students working and in debt, but the upshot is, we are failing as a nation to transmit the very idea that IDEAS matter.