News-Record.com

I was under the impression that, at least at middle schools, principals already had that option.

Morgan,

To answer your question - YES

I remember Dr. Grier stating that NC state law granted the principals sole authority in staffing.

Here's the link to the NCDPI 2005/06 School Safety Report:
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/newsroom/news/2006-07/table6b.pdf

BOE Actions - May 10, 2005 -

SROs at Middle Schools

The Board discussed school resource officers (SROs) and debated the need to have SROs at middle schools. They also debated the need to assign a SRO at the following schools where there is not currently an SRO: Brown Summit Middle, Lincoln Middle, SCALE middle site, and two discretionary fill-in officers.

Motion was made by Darlene Garrett to allow middle schools to make site-based decisions in regards to school resource officers. The motion failed for lack of a second.

Motion was then made by Amos Quick, seconded by Deena Hayes, to remove the school resource officers from the middle school campuses in Guilford County Schools and to replace the school resource officers with a counselor or other properly trained employee and to also add a counselor or other properly trained employee position at Brown Summit Middle, Lincoln Middle, and SCALE. The motion passed upon a majority electronic vote of 7 to 4 as follows: Ayes – Nancy Routh, Walter Childs, Alan Duncan, Dot Kearns, Amos Quick, Deena Hayes, and Darlene Garrett; Nays – Anita Sharpe, Marti Sykes, Kris Cooke, and Susan Mendenhall.

BOE Actions - May 12, 2005 -

The Board approved a motion to continue funding School Resource Officers (SRO) at the middle school level and add one SRO at Lincoln Academy and one at SCALE – the net effect of this motion was an increase of $177,460.

(During the previous meeting of May 10, the Board elected to eliminate 18 middle school SRO positions, replace the officers with counselors and add three counselors [1 at Lincoln Academy, 1 at Brown Summit Middle School and 1 at SCALE] - a net reduction of $397,244.)

Here is the deal.

Take out the SRO's and replace with a "properly" trained employee.

Now, all of a sudden the information is not public anymore. Grier can hide it away from us.

If the SRO's go you will see, at least on the face of it, an improvement in school violence!

This cannot happen!

My child is a student at Jamestown Middle. This use to be an excellent school, but this year discipline has taken a nose dive. Unruly students are often allowed to stay in class. If given ISS, they come back to the same class they were causing problems in, while after school tutoring is going on. They then disrupt it and the kids trying to learn what they couldn’t in regular class are once again kept from studying. Kids are being kept in class because of the push from downtown to cut suspensions. This working, as we have heard, suspensions are down. Now the same people on the school board that have pushed for a drop in suspensions are now wanting SRO’s taken out. Why? Will they finally be happy when the schools dissolve into total chaos (that’s not that far off in some classes). So what happens when fights break? Have a counselor ask them to read a book?
I know people who work for W/S Forsyth Co. schools. They are amazed and shocked by what is going on in the GCS.
Our children are being sacrificed on the altar of social engineering. When is this county going to wake up?

Anyone remember the incident at an Orange County school last year?

I wonder how those parents feel about SRO's - especially given the fact that the SRO prevented a potential tragedy from occurring.

Tk5104

Thank you for speaking out. This is happening in other middle schools this year also. There are frequent fights at Southwest Middle School. You have probably seen postings here from Kieser Middle School parents. There was a major fight at Ferndale the other day. We have heard the parents of Eastern Middle speak out.

I would write the school board members who you think will support you. You can find their addresses on line. Write anonymously as a middle school teacher if you are afriad of repercussions from downtown. Until teachers speak out strong as a group you can expect more of the same social engineering. This is one reason we are losing so many great teachers to other counties. They value their safety and really do want to teach. I would also go as a group to Mark Jewell and have the teachers' association speak about what the teachers experience daily with the disruptions. We are losing the students who want to learn for the sake of those who don't care. Also call Garth Hebert. His phone number is also listed on GCS's website.

Contrary to popular belief, there is not a mad dash by myself, Deena Hayes or any other member of the Board of Education to remove SROs from the schools. This is an EXAMINATION of the impact and effectiveness of the SRO program. The facts could very well determine that SROs should stay in all the schools that currently have them; or some schools that have them may want to "trade" for another assistant principal or some schools that do not have them may want an officer.

I must however repeat here what I have said at least 1,000 times, but never gets mentioned: An over-reliance on law enforcement to solve the issues in our schools is doomed to fail. SROs as the one and only solution will never work. In no way does that mean that SROs cannot be A PART of the solution.

Please also be advised that there are teachers and principals who have said to us that they "don't really need an officer" at their school and would like the flexibility to decide.

Normally, I try not to comment, but this issue is too important to be reduced to a shouting match and a protest based on inaccurate information.

We all want our children to be safe - in every school. A safe school is the foundation of everything else we do in our school buildings. However, as we are seeing now, more has to be done than simply having a uniformed officer in a building.

The Board encourages citizens to come out to meetings, email or call us and voice their opinions. We depend on feedback from those we represent. (My numbers are 235-0345 or 987-7269)

Maybe there is a comprehensive solution that we have not yet thought of and you have. Let us hear it.

The children enrolled in Guilford County Schools -my daughter, Ms. Hayes' daughter and other Board members children and grandchildren included - deserve safe learning environments. And we will continue to all we can to ensure them.

Amos,

Thanks for posting. I agree completely that SRO's should be part of the solution. In fact, I wish that the SRO's would be like the Maytag repairman and simply be available, but most often not have work to do.

The problem is, as you know, a deeper problem than that. Kids come to school without having been taught respect. Teachers are no longer allowed to correct disrespectful behavior and principals have been warned not to suspend.

When children have not been taught properly how to act and they are allowed to get away with almost anything, often this all erupts with a situation that requires intervention of an SRO.

I'm sure someone is certain to yell that my idea of disrespect is someone else's idea of a cultural difference.

Regardless of the culture, I feel strongly that children should NOT be allowed to call teachers "MF", throw items at a teacher, continuosly disrupt class without some sort of punishment or other intervention.

If we really want the SRO's to become like the Maytag repairman, then we need to have strong and consistent rules in every single school in this county. And there must be strong expectations that the students will comply with these rules.

Until that happens (and I sure don't see it), SRO's will continue to be necessary.

Amos,
I am a parent of a child at Southwest Middle. We have many problems at our school this year mainly caused by re-districting bad planning and a select few children that really dont want to be there.
I just would like to thank you for commenting and like to offer a suggestion. If the leadership team of a school can agree that a SRO is not needed then so be it. It will then be a joint decision by staff and parents. I personally dont think that many will do it but its probably good that a real choice is given to the parents and staff and that it is not a mandated decision from downtown.

Thankyou for all that you do. I and many appreciate your forthrightness. Good luck with your work with Dudley.

I would like to suggest that in addition to being able to hire a reading teacher or counselor if a school decided to trade in their SRO that class room teachers be added to that list. A ARO costs about $89,000 a year (I can't remember the exact price, but with their car it's close)-- for that amount of money 2 teachers could be hired to make classroom size smaller.

At middle school the growth in educational scores is horrible. I know that at our school we are very crowded in many classes. I think that everychild could benefit from more attention with smaller classes.

Just a thought

Amos,

Well said, Dr. Grier or the School Board have not suggested removing SRO's. They are suggesting to let the Principals and the School Leadership team decide if its a necessary expenditure. I for one think that many of our schools need SRO's. But I certainly can imagine situations where they wouldn't be neccessary. I see nothing wrong with looking at alternatives or giving the principals the decision. We always get a better solution and outcome when decisions are made closest to the source.

Dave,

You blame many problems at Southwest Middle on Redistricting how so? What does redistricting have to do with how kids behave?

The Real Truth

I know there are several teachers at my child's middle school that say they have broken up their last fight. They will no longer jump in the middle of it and I can't blame them.

This is another reason that half, yes HALF!..50%!, of the teachers have put in for a transfer for next year. If the principals aren't going to/aren't allowed to suspend the kids that are fighting, the teacher's jobs only get harder and harder.

I can see why teachers would like to transfer to a school like debora's where they may vote to get rid of SRO's. I would like that environment for my child too!!!

I personally think that Terri Grier and every board member needs to spend a week in a school with a principal, with an employee and with a student and see if it develops a deeper understanding of what is actually going on in our schools!

Real Truth:

While there are advantages to moving the SRO decision to the school level, there are also big disadvantages. The biggest is that this moves the "heat" for any decision away from the elected board and toward unelected school leadership teams. If something goes wrong one way or the other (student harmed by an overzealous SRO or student harmed by the lack of an SRO), the fault then devolves to the leadership team.

Unfortunately, SROs are a necessary element in our schools. We might wish otherwise, but given both the internal and external threats that our schools face, there needs to be a trained law enforcement presence. The number of serious high school (242) and middle school (196) incidents is too high to ignore.

Board member Quick's statement that he just wants to study the issue seems disingenous at best, given his May 10, 2005 motion and vote to defund the SROs. It is also hard to see how removing the SROs will make the students and teachers safer. If he and others would like to propose additional safety steps that would complement the presence of the SROs, that would be great. But it would be foolhardy and dangerous to pull the SROs out under the current conditions.

Mr. Ribar -

Let me assure you that the matter of who's at fault between the Board and a leadership team is of no importance when it comes to the safety of the schools.

Yesterday at my daughter's school, a student was arrested for having a loaded gun on campus. Had something happened to my daughter or any other child at that school, I would not have sought answers from a leadership team. The Board is in no way trying to abdicate any of our responsibilities.

Folks, the members who make up the Board of Education are members of this community as well. We are not some cold, uncaring institution who want something negative to happen on any of our campuses to any of our children.

In my work life, I am the Executive Director of 6 Boys & Girls Clubs in Greensboro. Four of them are located on property managed by the Greensboro Housing Authority. Last year we provided services to 1,354 youth and their families, without assigning an officer to any Club unit. Now, I am fully aware that a Boys & Girls Club is totally different than a school. But the children we work with are students in Guilford County Schools.

I said all that to say, there is a way to educate our children and create climates of learning and mutual respect. It will not be easy or quick, but we owe it to this county to EXAMINE all methods and not place the responsibility solely at the feet of law enforcement.

We all have a part to play. Parents, most especially - and there are initiatives that all already in place to reach our parents. The headlines for these programs are not as attention-grabbing as "POLICE TO BE REMOVED FROM SCHOOLS," but that work is being done with our parents, behind the scenes and effectively.

For example, there is a "new" program at New Light Baptist Church to reach students who have been suspended for "minor" offenses before they can commit "major" ones. Also, there is a Parent Advocacy meeting tomorrow at Genesis Baptist Church that seeks to help parents learn to navigate our school system, but also to share with them why it is so vital that they do their part to make our schools safer learning environments.

This Board of Education is doing a lot more now than we ever have to build brides between families, communities and schools that all lead to student success. It's the only way our system will ever be able to reach the goals we have set.

I don't mind being called "disingenous;" sometimes that label may be appropriate. As an elected official, I expect that people will not always like what I do or how I vote. But you should also note that I, and this Board as a whole, will not ever stop trying to improve our schools for OUR children.

That's why the Good Lord allowed me to have a seat on this Board and I promised Him and the people who voted for me that I would work hard every day to improve our schools.

As for the motion that was made and passed in 2005, it sought to do the same thing that is happening now - review this issue and allow for decisions to be made with all the facts.

The comment above should have read: "This Board of Education is doing a lot more than we ever have to build bridges" - not brides.

See, I told you I could be disingenous sometimes.

Amos,

Thanks. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on how/why your organization has been so very successful with children when many believe the schools have been less so.

What are the differences? Could your methods be used in the schools?

Dave, I think the responsibility should rest with the principals. They are in the best position to know the needs of their school. We should empower our principals to make decisions as to what is best for their school. Dr Grier and the Board should do that more often. I have a lot of confidence in the principals I know. Give them authority to do their jobs and when they do a bad job, retrain them or fire them.
I’m willing to bet that most principals if not all will choose to keep SRO’s. It shouldn’t be about casting blame if something goes wrong. In fact many of the schools that have fights have SRO’s but the SRO is only one person and they cannot be in every part of the campus at the same time. Often SRO’s arrive after the trouble has ended. I guess what I’m trying to say is that SRO’s can only marginally make a school more safe. Bonding with troubled youth, giving these kids a mentor, a connection to a teacher or an administrator will have a better effect on school safety. We need more volunteers, more parent involvement. One reason for moving troubled kids from an environment that is overwhelmed with poverty and trouble is to give them a chance and hope that their new school will embrace them, bond with them and make a difference in their life. If your school is so troubled why don’t you be pro-active and try to help these kids instead of just being upset because they put a burden on you. This is a community problem, we all own it. Its not the Board’s fault, its not the administrations fault its all of societies fault. We all need to step up and solve it. Try Volunteering! Do your part.

Anyhow, I think people are all riled up about this issue for nothing. The SRO’s aren’t going away. The rhino gets an F again for a misleading headline that is for the purpose of stirring un-informed, negative people up. Anything to create controversy and get people all worked upset. I'm glad the N&R has real journalists with charater!

The Real Truth

Amos,

Thank you for posting!

A technical question for anyone: If a (high) school elects not to use the state provided funds for an SRO, does GCS still get the funds allocated to use as they please?

Real Truth,

Dont jump to the conclusion that the redistricted kids are the problem and dont jump to the conclusion that I do not help.

What I object to is the "one size fits all" aspect of SROs. The SROs should work for the Supt. and be deployed where needed. This may mean one in some schools and two in others. Other schools may need none. Site based management is something that has not served us well. It is used by the BOE and the Supt. as away to escape their own responsibility. The Principals are put in a tough position. If they deviate from the norm and don't succeed you are in deep do-do. I want to see the BOE and Supt. really support the principal. Support is something else from letting the Principal do what ever he/she wants to.

I'm confused.

Did Mr Quick just tell us he was selected by GOD?

Dear Board Member Quick:

The incident that you described at your daughter's school only seems to reinforce the need for SROs. Sadly, the threats inside and outside our schools demand this unfortunate step.

Your dedication to the Boys and Girls Clubs is outstanding and a tremendous benefit to the community. However, these are entirely different situations. The numbers at the clubs are smaller (nearly as many children were suspended in the GCS in the last few months as were served in the clubs), and the clubs are mutually voluntary. Among other things, children are not compelled to attend, as they are in the public schools. Also, the clubs can set more stringent rules than the schools and can close their doors when they want. The self-selection that is involved makes them a poor comparison. Though as you say, you are already aware of this difference.

The programs that you described for ISS students also seem like good ones, though we should be clear about their limitations. The New Light program, for instance, will only accommodate about 30-45 students out of nearly 1200 who have recently been suspended. The Genesis Baptist program seems more focused on advocacy on behalf of potentially suspended students than on addressing the underlying student behavioral issues. Every child deserves an advocate, but responsibility has to enter, also.

As you have already guessed, I do disagree with your earlier vote. But the criticism is more that you would call it an effort to "examine" the issue. Defunding SROs at schools goes well beyond an examination of the issues. Similarly, proposing to take a policy that is de facto mandatory and make it voluntary is a back-door (one might even say "disingenuous") way of reducing the number of SROs. Nothing is really being examined in this proposal either.

We should explore ways to make the schools more secure and to one day eliminate the need for SROs. On this we both agree. However, until something better is in place, let's not eliminate this necessary safeguard.

We are clearly coming at this issue from much different perspectives. I strongly believe that my children have less to fear from an armed or "tasered" SRO than they do from some of our students or from nut-cases like the person who recently shot up the one-room Amish school house in Pennsylvania. You clearly believe differently and have stated that this issue needs to be examined (in caps no less :) ). As you conduct your "examination," I would ask that you count up the children and teachers harmed by SROs across the country and compare that figure to the number of children and teachers harmed by other children and non-SROs generally. Alternatively, please show the community one study that conclusively shows that SROs are a NET contributor to school violence and under what circumstances.

Respectfully,

Good Lord,

Let's not be so immature and pesimistic, that we label Amos as anything but authentic. He has been clear with his intention and his word that he is an advocate for children... for the highest good of all concerned.

"educate our children and create climates of learning and mutual respect."
"learn to navigate our school system"

Real people don't talk this way.

"Our children are being sacrificed on the altar of social engineering"
I'm a bleeding heart liberal but I'm starting to believe this.

However I have no idea what to do.

My problem is the people in charge don't seem any more competent than me.

A few years ago I heard a conservative ( one who I despise ) say the problem with the school system is it's organized for the people at the top who run it not for better education of the students.

I'm starting to believe that.

Now I'm from a whole different generation but when I went to high school the man we called "coach" was pretty good a handling things and thugs.

Do these people exist any more.

My guess is the good kids with minor infractions don’t
get disciplined because they are not a threat

I watched high school kids at GTCC ( Middle College? ) smoking at the entrance in front of the teacher and he had no problem with it.

I'm not making this up.

I mentioned this to the school system no one responded to me.

The inmates run the asylum

Dear Real Truth:

Local control and devolution are important ideals. Principals should have input into the decisions regarding SROs, but the BOE should have final authority in this matter. Our children have a fundamental right to be safe in their schools. The only thing that is debatable is how best to achieve that and still provide a worthwhile and dignified education.

I agree with the other things that you have written about the schools needing additional resources, especially volunteers.

I disagree about who is doing the riling. As someone new to the community, I was deeply troubled when I learned that I had just moved my children into a school system that had SROs with tasers. After all, Big Bad Johnny Law prowling the halls, ready to shock little Ramona when she starts to act like a pest is a pretty visceral image. However, as I thought about it, the alternatives--SROs with only guns or worse no SROs at all--were much more troubling.

Correction

My guess is the good kids with minor infractions
get disciplined because they are not a threat

Mr. Quick: Thank you for posting here. I and many others here hope you become a regular contributor.

I too would agree to a certain extent that it is ultimately an administrator's decision to keep or pull the SROs, but in the times we're living in, I believe that they are necessary in many/most of our schools. And with all due respect, given the fact that you did vote to pull the finding, I'm not so sure if ultimately you want them to stay or go.

I've seen vicious fights during my tenure at Andrews. Thank God an SRO was there to break it up. I subbed at Central before I started at Andrews. Ditto. I've been called an "MF", threatened, almost assaulted...all in the name of doing my job.

I agree that it needs to start in the home and some of our children lack the skills and the respect to function in a classroom.

Unfortunately, these are the times we live in. And until there's something better that comes along, I will continue to support law enforcement officers in our middle and high schools. The too provide many other services. For instance, for teachers and staff, they do training on how to spot strangers walking in a school and preventative measures. How to do a lockdown and not panic. Protecting children from Internet predators. Andrews' SRO from last year was a liaison to SAVE (students against violence everywhere).

In addition, I've been in touch with many teachers and parents who are from Kiser and Jamestown Middle and Ragsdale and Western, and Southwest Middle/High, Andrews...you get the idea...who are concerned about the rapidly-deteriorating discipline problems that are present at these schools. These teachers need help now.

Just my opinion...

E.C.

Mr. Quik,

Thank you for taking time to post your thoughts on this very important issue.

I agree with Mr. Huey that there is a desperate concern out there among our teachers and students who are respectful and follow the rules about the blatent lack of respect by some of our students.
I am not talking about fights here. I am referring to the every day school life children witness: students blocking the halls so others cannot pass; students using street language and calling teachers MFs; students who are told by a teacher "you can't leave the gym, class is not over" - the same student just keeps on walking and completely ignores the teacher; students who are still so angry about being put on a long bus ride across town out of their neighborhood, passing their old school on the way on a daily basis; students who are angry when they are sick and can't leave because they have no transportation to leave.

Students who do comply with the rules see this blatent disrespect and disobedience every day. What they don't understand is why do they have to follow the rules and other students get away with not following the rules on a daily basis with outright disrespect for anyone in authority; some do not listen to teachers, and do not follow the rules. We have children in our schools who are afraid to use the bathrooms or walk down certain halls. This should not be. No child or teacher should feel unsafe in their school.

Then there are many safety issues in our "trailer schools" that are so open and anyone can easily come on campus who does not belong there. The principal and teachers cannot be at all places at all times.

We need the SROs to keep our children protected from people who do not belong in our schools. I hope you can share some of the programs you share at your Boys and Girls Clubs. I am very happy that local churches are getting involved to help. But this is not enough. It is just a start. The presence of the SROs can be preventing a lot of violent acts. One other point, from what I read the tasers have been in our school since April 06. No one has used them yet so I cannot see why people are afraid these will be used unnecessarily and irresponsibly

The board members need to go in our schools (in disguise), walk the halls and see what is really happening. It has gotten worse each year.

I would not have the courage to take SRO's out of our schools.

The specific SRO options that are being presented to the BOE at its Feb. 8 meeting are listed in this staff report.

Mr Quick

"I said all that to say, there is a way to educate our children and create climates of learning and mutual respect. It will not be easy or quick, but we owe it to this county to EXAMINE all methods and not place the responsibility solely at the feet of law enforcement"

I agree,

However at this point we have neither the resources or talent to do these things.

Trying these things is like giving the Dallas Cowboys play book to Grimsley High.
They can’t execute.

You can’t reform without control. Period.

Getting Control gets messy.

My guess is no matter how upset some people get that will have to happen ( control) before things get better overall.

The order you do things is as important as what you do.

In history every now and then Martial law was required.
Now as a liberal I hate that but it’s a fact.

A quick count of the number of crimes and violent acts committed at GCS middle schools for 2005-6 indicates that there were 220 such acts, rather than the 196 reported by the N&R.

For GCS, approximately two-thirds of the assaults resulting in serious injury (9 of 13) and the assaults on school personnel (46 of 71) occurred in middle schools as did nearly half of the weapons possession cases (113 of 234). The rate of crimes and violent acts in the GCS middle schools is 28 percent higher than the state average.

The figures indicate that the middle schools in Guilford County are every bit as dangerous as the high schools and therefore equally in need of SROs.

I would be happy to e-mail a copy of the figures upon request.

Dear Dave,
excellent points, why don't you email all those facts to ALL the school board members. It seems that some of the BOE rely on GCS staff for information and don't take the time to add these things up prior to the meeting. If someone could give them the data early, they would be armed with reality facts, not pie in the sky facts.

Without question, when this subject is discussed at a BOE meeting, Deena will speak, and what will her biggest concern be? The black children!

I'm sure she will say that black children are harrassed by the SRO's more than white children, but guess what...at my child's school, the black children, change that the "Parkview children", are the most disrespectful and are called out more than any other group. Their favorite excuse..."It's my culture."

I've raised my child pretty well so far. Dot and the others that voted for the swap map counted on that. They chose the Parkview kids to be bused across town to our school in hopes that their behavior would be influenced/modified by the kids with more parental involvement. That would have been a pretty good plan, I guess, but in secret meetings the night before, these same board members decided to SWAP kids. They diluted the well behaved kids. So yes, the most disciplined group of kids happen to be black.

Who's fault is that, really?

see my updated website blog on this issue, click on my name below...

E.C.

PLEASE SPARE US:

THAT'S A GREAT EMAIL ADDRESS LINK YOU HAVE!

Those of us that want a new look at SROs in Middle School are fully aware of the problems that some Middle Schools have. There is a lot of comment that they break-up fights. If this is the case, paying about 90k for this service is not justified. You could get two people for that price. SROs are taught to solve crime cases and put people in the slammer. They believe crime is everywhere and each school has some kids running around with criminal intent. Why don't we have an ambulance on standby at each school? Better yet, why don't we have a doctor at each school in case an emergency happens? I ask you one thing, has the scores gone up since we have a full complement of SROs in Middle Schools? We are on the slippery slope downward. We have got to make a number of changes, we cannot sit by and do nothing.

Two comments:

According to the staff report, the schools will have less than one month (March 1 is the deadline) to decide whether or not to keep their SRO's. Isn't that just like them to rush to a decision? If I was a parent on one of those High School Leadership teams I think I would need more time than that to talk to other parents before I would feel comfortable voting.

Second thing. If we want to deal with discipline in the long term then let's talk about our elementary schools. Let's give the principals and teachers in the elementary schools the authority to demand respect and decent behaviour from our children. We need to stop that train before it leaves the station, not when they get to High School and are completely out of control.

Joe,

Where is the survey that reported that SRO's "believe crime is everywhere and each school has some kids running around with criminal intent"? Or did you interview each and every one to know that that is how "they believe"?

Actually, while I wouldn't think a doctor or ambulance is needed at every school, I would like there to be a nurse at every school - just in case of a medical emergency.

No Joe scores have not gone up in middle schools but what does that have to do with SROs? We are talking safefy, not test scores here.

I do strongly believe that test scores are down because too many students are disrespectful, rude, abusive, disruptive and cause other students who would like to have a peaceful, healthy environment in which to learn and really do want an education not to learn. Teachers have to take time out of their teaching to handle the constant disruptions. Teachers hands are tied in many cases and the same kids who disrupt are right back in class.

You saw the post from the Jamestown Middle School teacher. Not only do students disrupt class but come back after school and disrupt tutoring. This is not fair to students who have a desire to learn. We are losing these students too on test scores because they can't learn with all the chaos. We have lost many children to private schools because parents are tired of what is going on in our public schools.

SROs do a great job knowing who belongs in school and keeping those off campus who don't. Most of them have positive relationships with the students. The students can talk to the SROs and appreciate their presence.

I too would love to see a nurse in every school, every day and cannot believe we don't have that in this county. In other school districts only nurses or parents can give meds to their children, not a teacher and not office staff - another story for another day.

Additionally we need nurses to take care of the sick children who are being bused too many miles from their home with no other means of transportation at home. It is cruel to make sick children remain at school all day because their parents cannot pick them up when the school district bussed them in the first place.

I agree that BOE members should be in the schools volunteering... not just walking around, but answer the phone in the office, go to ball games and watch behavior and language, come in the morning and walk around commons, stand in the hall when classes are changing. I know when my son started middle school and I first volunteered in the office, I was shocked! and still am on what goes on, the attitude you get from some kids, the utter dismay that a girl with her chest hanging out, belly button showing with holes in her jeans might have to go home. Then when the parent comes in and is dressed worse and agrees that her child is fine. Oh woe is me. Parents should have to pass a test before having children!

Joe, I know that your heart is in the right place. You want everyone to get a great education, but without some sense of respect and control it doesn't happen. Have you been in the schools lately? As passionate as you are about education, I bet you would love working with kids. I know that your eyes would be opened if you were in the schools regularly.

"It's all of societies fault" RT

No Real Truth it is society's fault. The problem, however, is society's problem. Parents must be held accountable for their own children's behavior. The children who disobey the rules must have consequences, all children. We are not doing students who constantly cause problems a favor by saying "it is your culture. it's okay." Sooner or later they will be in the real work force world if they make it that far. This type of behavior will not be acceptable.

Public schools should be safe places for all students and teachers. It's a matter of public safety. If there are children who cannot function in a normal acceptable manner of society, i.e. a public school, then there needs to be an alternative setting.

correction to previous post: it is NOT society's fault

Debora,

Agree, we have disruption and chaos in Middle Schools. Is an armed, Tazer toting sworn officer the only type of human being that can bring it under control? If the answer is yes, then we should use SROs in every middle school that has uncontrolled disruption and chaos. You talk like every single Middle School is a powder keg. If this is true, we are in worse shape than I thought.

Joe,
A good SRO makes connections with kids and gets inside information about things before they happen. We need kids to see police officers as confidants not the enemy. In addition to that, they do protect the school from outside influences; sometimes HS students, non custodian parents that threaten to get their child, etc.

I would rather the officers have and use tazers than guns. Of course a good officer should be able to diffuse almost any situation without either. If there is an incident at a county school, you would they call other than the sheriff and the deputies that arrive would have tazers. At our school we don't have much violence (note I did not say NO vioilence) but there are cases of fights, drugs, rumors of such that need to be investigated etc.

I do think that each school should choose, but I don't think our school should have to give up their SRO to another school and not get something in return (admin, extra teacher etc), which has been dicussed.

Dear Mr. Quick,

My child attends Lincoln. I was in the office last week signing in a late student, with whom I am very familiar as a frequent (as in EVERY day I am there) latecomer. She turned to her friend who had just signed in and said, "Wait, give me the hash." Then the one girl gave the other girl a folded paper packet. I could see and hear all this. Oh, and they smelled like they were smoking something. I am no innocent, and I was in college, etc, etc. Since Lincoln has NO SRO, what am I supposed to do? The principal was out of the office, and the secretary was on the phone. I told the girl that I heard her and that she was stupid to just do and say that in front of me, and she denied knowing what I was talking about. She went off to class high, as did the other girl and boy who came in with her. I have a student there. By the way, since Lincoln "shares" a campus with Dudley, shouldn't parents at Lincoln be notified that a student brought a loaded gun to school?

"Try volunteering. Do your part!" The Real Truth

FYI we who remain in public schools do volunteer. The problem is because of the disasterous HP Choice Plan combined with the Midnight Map C Swap Plan took 425 HP students to private schools, moved or are homeschooled. These students parents now spend their time volunteering in private schools and contributing funds to them.

We continue to lose more parents and teachers each year because of a lax policy on discipline and teachers being encouraged not to suspend for the sake of the numbers.

We need our SROs more than ever.

...and you need board members that care.

I am a teacher in GCS. We have many discipline problems in our school. Many GOOD teachers have thrown in the towel and asked for transfers, many have quit already this year and many just may not come back next year. I have heard from many teachers in other schools that discipline is a big problem not just in middle schools, but in elemetary schools. ISS is full every day and it is not working. We have been told that we are suspending too many kids so they don't suspend any more trouble makers. So they sit in a classroom and disrupt the education of the children who are eager to get an education. I have broken up several fights this year and have been told to F-- O---. Last year I had death threats given to me. We need to find a solution for these problems now or we will face bigger problems in the future. Get these discipline problems out of the classroom and get them help so the children who want to learn can learn.

Those of us who want less suspensions never visualized that disruptive students would be returned to the classroom without any real punishment. We thought they would be sent to a program or school that would deal with their problems. And until their problems were rectified, they would not return to a normal class room. These disruptive students need to be sent to SCALE or something like that.

Mr. Stafford,
They sit in class every day. You need to check and see who gets sent to SCALE. They have to have a hearing before going there and many come back to the regular school, only to repeat the same behaviors over and over. Many days we spend more time in discipline than in instruction.

Joe,
My dear friend Joe... you have to get in the schools to see what we are all talking about. It is an honorable vision to reabilitate the disruptive students. GCS does not provide an ISS teacher in middle schools, we have to cut out a core teacher to afford one. If they think that keeping students in school is the right thing to do, then they should provide the teacher, not make the school have larger classroom size to accomadate affording an ISS.

The 'frequent flyers' (my favorite expression for repeat offenders) are thrilled not to be in class, so that they chill out and not have to work hard. They have work sheets etc. It is a joke in middle school for the ones that are in trouble all the time, they get to hang with their buds. There is no real punishment.

My idea is to have vocational education during ISS. One day you get to dig a 6 foot ditch, then next fill it up, the third pick up trash, then 4th go through recyclables and separate, etc etc. These are the type of jobs that you can get without a HS diploma. Maybe we could scare some of these kids into obeying society rules. Of course this would never fly... probably child abuse or something.

Molly: this is precisely what I've been covering on my website, my website blog and my platform for my school board campaign. And this will be the crux of my comments I have planed for Thursday night. ISS is a joke. SCALE is a joke. We have got to find real solutions to these real problems and fast because all we're doing is warehousing these children for 8 hours a day.

GCS...striving..achieving...excelling?

I don't think so....

E.C. Huey (click on my name below to go to my site)

By reading the posts of others here, it looks like my child’s school is not an isolated problem, it is system wide. Without proper discipline in place, you can’t have an atmosphere of learning. You can have all the meetings, committees, volunteers you want, it’s not going to address the core problem. The school system is responsible for discipline in the school, not the parents. If parents are ultimately responsible for how discipline is handled in the schools, can we come in and enforce it? Can I volunteer to sit in class and take the kids out who are cussing the teachers out and acting like thugs in the halls?
Other than one member, is anyone on the school board reading this? Parents and teachers are telling you what is wrong. Unless you expect parents to police the schools (yes, I know that isn’t a PC correct term) what do you expect us to do? Most parents do care about what their kids do, but some don’t and these are the ones it seems that is setting the precedent for the extremely high level of bad behavior that is tolerated.
End this policy of not suspending the “frequent flyers” now.

Joe,

The problem is that there are no consequences!!

I agree just sending them home is not an answer, but what is....No one has addressed this.

The teachers should not be saddled with this responsibility. Disruptive and disrespectful students should be removed from the classroom.

Education should be an earned priveledge!!!

If you really want to help...volunteer so
that you can see for yourself what goes on!

I am an SRO at a GC High Schooll. This amazes me that some think an assistant principal or a reading teacher can take our place. I carry a Taser, it has never left its holster. I know just about all of the students at my school either by face or by name. Most of my teachers REFUSE to break up fights because we had so many get injured last year. We (SRO's) dont believe crime is everywhere and we just dont put people in the slammer. Examine the title of SRO, School RESOURCE Officer. I teach health classes about the effects of alcohol/drug use. I conduct building safety inspections before the students return from the summer. I conduct staff development on safety in school and in their personal lives. I teach lockdown procedures, I assist in planning the fire drill routes, I maintain and update the Critical Incident Response Kit (required for every school), I counsel kids on issues at home (domestic, abuse, drug use). Don't sit there and tell these readers that all we do is assume crime is everywhere and put people in the slammer. It is unfortunate that I have to arrest some of MY students. Yes, MY KIDS. I walk into this school every single day for 180 days not knowing if I am going to have to take a bullet for MY KIDS. They are your kids at home but they are MY KIDS here. I have relationships with my kids so that I can reduce the number of fights and silly drama. In fact, it has been over 60 school days since our last fight (knock on wood). If the principal wants a reading teacher or an AP, thats fine but they will have to call 9-1-1 to get an officer and then they might get 2, 3, or 10 depending on the situation. Dr. Grier doesn't like them to call 9-1-1, it looks bad. I invite anyone to meet with their SRO at their respective schools and talk about what they do everyday before assuming we just throw people in the slammer.
P.S. Did you know that we many SERIOUS convicted felons attending our schools? They range from petty theft to armed robbery to assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.
SURPRISE! THATS NOT ON AYP!!

Noone cares,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your service and your excellent post. You are appreciated by those of us who know what SROs do and what benefit you are to the kids. It is ridiculous that some of the powers-that-be want to play their games with you.

To noone:

Thanks.

Note the SRO above was at a High School. High Schol is not Middle School. One size does not fit all. We have to make choices. We do not have enough money to do everything. I have no doubt that many SROs have good relationships with their kids and they help steer them on the right course. A sworn, gun toting, lazer toting officer with handcuffs is not required to be a friend. We should be able to find individuals (retired law enforcement) that could do the hand-holding job for one-half the price.

Joe,
would they have the authority to interview, investigate, arrest if necessary?

We have the money for new magnet programs to put in schools that are failing the ABC/AYP's. We have the money to bus those magnet kids all over the county. We have money to pay for middle college so that kids get college credit(and now Dr. Grier wants to pay for 2 years of college). We have the money to have diversity training. We have the money for mission possible, etc; etc; etc.

We need to educate in a safe environment. We need to quit expanding programs until we know they work. We need to get back to the basics. I think it is great to leave it up to the principals and my guess is 75% will keep them!

Joe, Since you have such a great idea of bringing a Wal-mart greeter to be someone's friend, come volunteer at a school and VOLUNTEER to disarm students who bring knives to school, and volunteer to stay and train YOUR children's teachers on how to handle themselves when intruders come in. I think you have more of a problem with law enforcement in general, for some reason, maybe you were arrested or cited for speeding and you think it was unfair. Who knows? Either way, a school shooting is going to happen, we have been very very lucky. A student brought a gun to Dudley the other day. Why werent you there to hold his hand before he thought about bringing it? Why werent you there to be his friend and help him make better choices? The problem is not the SRO's or the Tasers or taking "kids" to the slammer. The problem lies in the home. Some of my kids can't go home until 7 or 8 pm and they stay here at school because their parents wont give them a key to the house.
As far as alternatives to arrest, I try Teen Court but to be eligible you must not have any involvements in the criminal justice system. Unfortunately, Ive used Teen Court twice because most of MY kids have some sort of record. Instead of whooping and hollering about "my childs school has armed cop in it" how about saying, "why don't we as a system and in CONJUNCTION with the SRO's attempt to help these kids while they are in middle/early high school? When they get to 9th grade, it is almost too late. There is a small group that can be helped but most have joined a "gang", yes, GCS has gangs. OH MY! Most have resorted to some type of illegal activity because everyday they come to school and leave their miserable home life, they come mad and the only place to take it out at is here in school. I used to work in a middle school and I see how much of an effect home life has on a twelve year old. If mom and dad, or stepdad, or momma's boyfriend today, has an issue or if mom doesn't come home because she's out smoking crack with her pimp, the child comes to school with a broken heart. That brokenness turns into anger. It almost like the grieving process. Denial, anger, bargaining, and then comes acceptance. With acceptance, comes the words "I dont care, who cares about me." They are mad and they think the world doesnt understand. The world being the teachers and administration of the schools. They dont understand. You dont have "grown-ups" in the education field who understand what it is like to have parents who smoke crack or beat them or not feed them for a few days. Sorry to keep rambling but it makes me mad when people start putting the blame on others instead of coming up with solutions as a TEAM. When a kid breaks loose in class and throws a large three hole punch at the teacher or curses her out because she threatens to call their parents, SRO's have to step in. When a kid comes to school armed to kill someone because they were picked on too much, SRO's are needed, not some mild mannered retired non-gun toting officer. It is sad that we have to be in schools but there is a clear need for us. I am very passionate about this topic because everyone involved, the BOE, the individual schools, parents, PTSA, and other SRO's need to realize that we are really all here for the same purpose. Why do we try so hard to work against each other? Oh, I forgot, AYP and EOC and NCLB. In the long run when a child gets hurt, does any of those letters really mean anything? No. Does it matter whether or not that school made AYP or has an intervention team, or has too many long term suspensions? No. I wish I could make those who matter really understand that children cant learn in fear. They cant make III's and IV's when they know the child next to them has drugs or a knife or even a gun.
Ok, I'm done. I appreciate the intelligent conversation/debate about this. I get pumped up about MY school and MY kids. I hope everyone, even you Joe, have a great week.

I will say again, some schools need SROs. It sounds like yours needs at least one and mayby more. Just because I ask "Is this the best way", I get villified. The function performed by SROs has to be done by someone. I have never said that the work of the SROs is not important.

Noone Cares,

Many of us do care. We appreciate so much the many roles you have to take on. We THANK YOU for all that you do. It takes a special person to do this kind of job and see what you see on a daily person. I can tell from your post that you are passionate about your job and care about these kids. They are fortunate to have someone like you in their lives.

I sub in the elementary schools. I agree with you that we must have intervention and a plan at younger ages. I see even at the elementary level how some kids are hurting and angry. It breaks your heart for some of these kids because of their homes lives that are not their faults. But there is only so much the school system can do. These kids go back to the same environment day after day. By high school, it is too late, in most cases.

At the end of the day, what DO all these test scores and initials mean if our children are not safe. These are public schools and unfortunately "public" covers a wide range of different people. But your job is to keep our students, principals, teachers and staff safe.

Joe, I wish we didn't need SROs in middle schools but this is not the case in most of our schools. You are forgetting that some "kids" in middle school are 15 and 16 years old. Some have low self esteems; they are angry; this anger comes out in bad, often dangerous, behavior. It's an unfortunate reality.

Yes we will hear about the "pipeline to prison", etc. etc. but are we doing these kids a favor to let them just sit in school, warehouse them and do nothing. Is it fair to others in the classroom who need and want to learn?

We cannot afford to keep losing parents to private schools and losing the good teachers we have. A teacher can only take so much and no teacher should have to endure threats. No money is worth this.

We need alternative schools to remove the frequent flyers from the regular classrooms. There should be a "tough love" approach, a way to give teach this kids discipline, respect, and somehow to care about themselves and know there is a better world out there that they can be a part of. there could be job training programs.

The taser issue came up in April and the no tasers have been used in our schools. There is no evidence to support that tasers would be used irresponsibly or on certain individuals only. This is just not the case.

btw, There is a great editorial in today's N & R supporting our SROs.

I thank all the SROs for the tough job they have and please know that many parents strongly support what you do. We are in the schools. We know what goes on.

Let's make a deal.

Let's get rid of all SRO's next year and instead, send those 84 Central Office employees that have nothing else to do, to the schools.

Divide them up between the middle and high schools. Their job is to educate all the teachers on the evacuation plans, the intruder plans, etc. After all, there is no way that a lowly teacher can know as much about these things as a CENTRAL OFFICE EMPLOYEE!

They also have to get in the middle of EVERY FIGHT to break it up. It doesn't matter if there are knives or guns, they must be the one jumping in the middle of it...and no billy clubs or TASERS ALLOWED!!

If they refuse to do their job, Grier is FIRED. That's the deal. Any takers?

At tonight's meeting the BOE decided to get more information, including holding a meeting with the community, before deciding anything about the SRO issue.

Dr. Ribar,

I enjoyed your speech last night at the BOE meeting. Thanks for speaking out and I hope you will continue to do so.

While congratulations are in order for Kernodle Middle's recent award (CONGRATS DARLENE!) reportedly there were several cop cars called to Southwest High School yesterday because of an impending gang fight. WHEN IS ENOUGH ENOUGH??

On the SRO matter....I read in the N & R this morning that Deena wants the matter of principals deciding about SROs delayed until March. Amos was quoted as "Paint or get off the ladder". You can bet that Deena is using this time to meet with her various communities to round up several speakers to speak out against SROs when that is scheduled on the board's agenda. I hope and pray that many of you who feel strongly about this issue will come out and speak up for our SROs, and about bringing order, discipline and safety to our schools. PLEASE set aside time to speak. Your child's safety depends on it. It would be helpful if some of our SROs would share all they do in their jobs. We need you in our schools. We need you to speak out when this issues is on the agenda.

Dr. Ribar,

Your speech last night was excellent. Thank you for taking time to come out and speak about our SROs.

I am familar with the county schools you spoke of in Virginia as we has several friends in the military whose children attended those schools. If serious incidents can happen in the excellent schools in Northern Virginia, they can happen here. They are happening here.

Our schools are not getting any safer. We need to have multiple plans and the sooner the better to insure the safety of our children.

One item I have been asking the School Board and Dr. Grier for quite some time and just recently is the need for photo ID badges for our high school and middle school children. This will help insure who belongs on campus and who does not.

Our trailer schools and schools with several buildings on campus in particular are open targets for preditors and gang members and drug dealers.

Also at the beginning of the school year, we had high school students who were saying they were other students when they were "swept" for loitering or being written up for other offenses. Our schools are too big and the teachers do not know every student by name. The ID badges would also help prevent this confusion and unfairness from happening.

I hope some of you can address the board on this important issue.

I think ID badges are a great idea. Most larger companies use them now. It sure helps.

Folks...see my updated website blog on this and other issues. Multiple site updates. Click on my name below to take you there.

E.C.