News-Record.com

GCS is at the top of pay in NC with all the supplements, so I say give it a rest! There are other ways to increase pay-- get your National Board Certification, get your masters etc. With the poor state that many of our schools are in, now that we know we are paying a good amount for this profession compared to other states, I say spend that money on smaller class size, more supplies, books, education for teachers that need remedial classes etc.

In the past few years, we have increased salaries at the expense of tools like training, books and supplies. Having a good environment is very important to both teachers and students. Sometimes, we a slack of creating a good environment for our staff and students. Since we got very little from the increased wages, it may be time to shift our emphasis to other things. If we don't do something, we are in danger of sliding further down the slope.

Nearly all of the difference between the Locke Foundation's "adjusted" salary figures for North Carolina and the unadjusted figures comes from its cost of living adjustment. Pension contributions for NC are substantially below the national average (pushing the adjusted salary figure down). Average experience is about a year lower than the national average (this pushes up the adjusted figure by about $1K).

However, a closer examination of the cost-of-living figure (the figure comes from ACCRA) indicates that it is only applicable for URBAN residents whose incomes are in the TOP FIFTH of the income distribution. The organization that collects the data avoids discount stores, like Wal-Mart, in many areas arguing that high-income households do not shop there.

Moreover, the comparisons omit two high cost states: Massachusetts and New Hampshire.

Finally, the controls for experience are incredibly crude.

Given all of these problems, the figures from the Locke foundation are hardly worth the electrons they're stored in.

After looking at the actual report, my sense is that Morgan teed this subject up with a slightly misleading spin. She said that "North Carolina educators and politicians need to quit complaining about teacher pay. There's no reason to try to meet the national salary average because, well, North Carolina actually exceeds it."

As I read the report, I understood it to suggest that the average salaries for NC teachers were within a tolerance of being near average for the country, and future salary dollars should be applied in a merit-based manner. In essence, the author was suggesting that present pay levels represent an appropriate "base" pay for teachers, and future dollars should be directed to teachers that "make a difference". If you don't agree with that premise, then you probably don't buy Mission Impossible, as that is the essence of the program.

The teaching profession has developed over the years as one where teachers are compensated based upon seniority, not merit. If you can hang around long enough, you get to the upper levels of income. This is the "union" model of compensation, and what existed in private enterprise for the most part for many decades. Private industry has been using merit-based compensation for years with success. The education profession shies away from this compensation model as teachers tend to mistrust administrators to use it fairly (which in this district, who could argue with that concern).

In any event, the present model is flawed as your best performers are not compensated as such. In private business where the senority model is in place, top performers move on to employment where they have more control over their wages; through a merit-based program. It is time for the education profession to move into a compensation program that has a greater merit basis, if it wants to retain its best and brightest. It is one of the ways that education can be improved in the district. It would not be simple and easy to implement, but the results would be worth the effort. As someone once said, the juice would be worth the squeezing.

The difficulty is how to objectively evaluate merit, across so many teachers in such varied subjects. Systems which would allow a veteran teacher in, say, music or art, or even language arts, to be paid considerably less than a whiz-kid teacher a few years in math or science (not just in Mission Possible high at-risk schools, but anywhere), would likely have the effect of gnawing away morale until you may well precipitate a flood of departures from the profession. There is already bad odds on many staying in teaching past three or five years. Eventually, these positions don;t get filled with "the best and brightest", but with whomever they can find.

Pay is not everything.
Job satisfaction is also very important. Many teachers are totally pissed off with the lack of respect that some children have for them, their classroom and school.

Thank all of you for your comments. This is a really good discussion.

Debora, Joe, and Nolies make excellent points about spending priorities. Perhaps our intense focus on compensation has come at the expense of other areas that could enhance teacher working conditions. When I was in the classroom, I would have sacrificed half my salary to get that bum of a principal reassigned to Trinidad and Tobago.

Dave, you may have preferred that I adjust salaries using hedonic, competing industries, or teacher attribute geographic cost adjustment, all of which are commonly used to adjust teacher salaries. I simply found that those indexes work best on the district, not state, level. As for my experience adjustment, it may be crude, but it is not wrong. You may prefer your aluminum bat to my wood one, but both can still hit homeruns. Besides, nothing is cruder than making policy decisions based on nominal salary figures, as the governor and General Assembly do.

Jim, of course, different subjects would have different standards of evaluation. As Stormy suggests, merit pay would not be easy to implement, but it would be worth the effort. I think value-added assessments show some promise here, but I do not think we are there yet. For now, we should be offering attractive supplements to teachers in hard to staff subjects and low-performing or low-income schools. (Go, Terry Grier!)

Mr. Langer,

You already have a flood of departures from the teaching profession, and that doesn't even to count the ones that don't enter the profession. Many potential teachers don't enter the profession because they perceive the compensation opportunities as bleak. A good example is that "whiz-kid teacher a few years in math or science". Many of those people never enter the ranks for that very reason. Their competence is not recognized or rewarded. They have to pay their dues for years. They enter private enterprise where they can be rewarded for competence and contributions early.

Are merit pay programs difficult to implement fairly...yes, they are. Are there issues to overcome to make them acceptable and make them work? You bet. But, if you really want to get talented people into the system (and keep them there), the system needs to be changed, without regard to the difficulties. Nothing worth doing is easy. This is why administrators are paid the big bucks. Administrators are only needed to enable the class room teacher to be successful.

Even the federal government is moving toward merit pay for its civilian employees - see NSPS. If they can do it, I'm sure it can be worked for the teachers too.

With the laws of supply and demand, math and science teachers should be paid more. They should be paid more if they are actually good at teaching math and science.

As someone mentioned, teachers do not go into the profession because of the money. Teachers know the pay scale when they go into the teaching profession. They go in for similar reasons similar to a minister, policeman or fireman. Many leave because they simply get burned out from the every day lack of discipline and respect that is allowed in our schools and because of the frequent flyers who are allowed to return and disrupt those who want to learn. If you recall the recent teacher survey, the number one complaint was working conditions, not pay. Many appreciate having most of their summers off and long holidays off. There are many other perks of being teacher. One is having the same schedule if you are a teacher who has school children. It is when the negatives tip the scales the other way that when they want to leave the profession.

I have heard that at some of our schools that were once successful, many teachers have now put in for transfers. We need to deal with the real issues why teachers leave and the administration and the school board needs to be really listening.

In support of our teachers and to help bring some order, discipline and safety back into our schools, I am encouraging each and every one of you to write our school board and Dr. Grier in support of photo ID badges for high school and middle school. Many schools in other parts of the country use photo ID badges. At one time, our schools were talking about putting metal detectors in certain schools. We have not heard anything on that in recent years. Perhaps having photo ID badges would help prevent this from being necessary one day. The following are some of the reasons for photos ID badges:

1. Identify who belongs on campus and who does not. Keep drug dealers and preditors off our school grounds. Our "trailer" schools and large campuses with several buildings are open targets. Principals and even SROs cannot be everywhere at one time.

2. On back of the photo ID badges have certain medical conditions of the student listed, such as:
allergies, heart conditions, diabetes, blood type.

3. Have an ICE (in case of emergency) phone number.

Both items 2 and 3 could help in the case of fights if a child is knocked unconscious or of a disaster at school where several children could be injured.

4. Having to wear a photo ID would help kids' take some responsbility for their own actions.

There have been cases where students have given other students' names when they were being "swept" for loitering or being tardy. Today I talked to a school staff member who asked three kids who were running where they were going. The kids replied "none of your business". If the students had photo IDs on it would help them know it is that person's business.
If you read the Guilford County Schools manual (at least the one I used to have), it mentions being respectful to ALL school personnel. This would make every student know that any school personnel person could take their name and their would be consequences.

These are just some of the reasons why badges could help make our teachers and principals' jobs easier.

I strongly encourage you to support his idea.

Terry S

I find it the Mission Possible program very ironic. A few years ago, some of us approached Grier and the BOE and suggested increased pay for teachers who would go into struggling schools or those with a bad reputation. One of our contacts even spoke at length to the BOE chairman who told this person that it would never work, there isn't enough pay you could pay them to go to a particular school, Andrews.

Now, VOILA Mission Possible; our original idea!

I hope the program is effective, but it is quite humorous how the exact ideas that were proposed continally by involved parents were told "it will never work". Why would you now put in a program "that would never work"?

p.s. at the same time we also talked about techinical schools and training for those students who did not want or were not capable enough to get into college. What do we have now: academies

thank you very much

I have been a school teacher for several years and you all are right. I don't do it for the money, but money certainly helps pay the bills! I am fortunate though to be at a great school that makes me feel like a real teacher--not just a baby-sitter--but unfortunately, I had to leave Guilford County to find my "school home." I did take a cut in pay, but it was worth it to teach in a safe environment where I don't have to get upset about being called a b***h on a regular basis and I don't have to worry about parents being allowed to disrupt my classroom. I could go on, but my point is that respect from the school and community, time to plan and teach, and adequate supplies would make many teachers far happier than just a salary raise. Furthermore, there is not enough money in the world that would entice me to go and teach at certain schools in GCS. I've been in the trenches and I've learned there are far more important things than money.

P.S Who said that teachers get the summers off? Teachers have to plan, gather supplies, attend meetings and workshops all summer long. Teachers also must find summer jobs along with the high school and college kids since we do not get paid during the summer. Yes, I can choose to take a smaller monthly paycheck in order to have my pay "spread" along the whole year. However, teachers only recieve salary for the ten months that school is in session.

Oops! I misread Barbara Ann's comment earlier concerning summers off. My apolgies to Barbara for letting my mouth (typing) work faster than my brain. If you couldn't tell already, that's one issue that always gets my feathers ruffled. :-)

Thanks, Andi. I know how hard you teachers work and the time you put in during the summer in seminars etc. My point was just that you do have the option, as a teacher, to have a lot of time off with your children other than an office job which most people get off late, bring work home and work Saturdays. Not one teacher I know works for the money. Others do take on summer jobs. I know some teachers who are third generation teachers and have children who now want to teach. Many of them have discouraged their children from going into the profession for the very reasons you have stated before and now.

Those who stay do it because they love to teach.

One of my best friends and I have a favorite saying, "It doesn't take much." It's the little things like starting with basic respect that mean the most. Being humiliated on a daily basis is not worth a few more dollars a day.

Bag to photo IDs and teachers knowing how to identify kids. I have told fifth graders talking up a storm during a fire drill (in another class with a new sub)that I know every one of your names and would you like me to give your names to the principal. There was not another sound made during that the rest of the fire drill and we stood outside a long time on a very cold day. The younger children did an excellent job.

If students know you can identify them a lot of these shananigans would stop. Even if a student keeps on walking away, there names could be taken down. There could be a list of repeat offenders.

I also thing we needs aseemblies for our middle school and high school students to go over the student handbooks and the consequences. Of course, some would not care, but they couldn't say "I didn't know the rules."

sorry, meant to say "their" names and
"assemblies" - just typing to fast

I have also heard that many of our coaches are getting tired of breaking up fights. Wouldn't it be more productive if teachers could just teach.

STOP! STOP!

GO AND GET A FREE COPY OF THE RHINO TIMES NOW!....

REPEAT NOW!

EVERY TAX PAYING CITIZEN OF GUILFORD COUNTY SHOULD READ THE ARTICLE ABOUT NORTHERN MIDDLE AND BE OUTRAGED AND DISGUSTED!

ITS A TAJ MAHAL!!! BUCKINGHAM BLOODY PALACE!

Just what the hell is this school board doing?
My favorite quotes from the article are:

-Its a Monument to excess!
-Its completely illogical for the GC school board to spend like there is no tomorrow on a few schools when it could be building more schools at less expense.
-Does a school need to have Flat screen televisions in the hallways?
-Does it make more sense to have a school where you flush toilets with rainwater or build more classrooms instead of trailers?
-There is a difference between quality and adding every extra feature available.

Almost finally:

If all the doodads and geegaws at Nothern middle are really necessary for a school, if they really increase the students ability to learn then the students at Mendenhall, Aycock and every other school in the county are being short changed!

Finally:

If these features dont measurably Add add to student acheivement, then the features are being added to entertain the school board and school staff!

The article also notes that we have 634 mobile classroms at the moment in GC.

I SAY...

NO BONDS WHILE THIS BS IS HAPPENNING!

NO BONDS!

I SAY NO BONDS!

Tha aarticle also says....
Eastern County parents were concerned about their children attending school for one year in a trailer complex, but there are children all over the county who spend their educational careers in and out of trailers everyday.

This school board has clearly shown that it cannot spend our money in a sensible way.

This reckless spending has to stop before I can support another bond.

http://schoolcenter.guilford.k12.nc.us/education/sctemp/3ac41195320fe51e70f90e20afb9b545/1171628436/NGMS_Brochure_January_23%2C_2007.pdf

Its too late for Northern Guilford Middle School. What you can do now is to stop the rennovation of the Lucy Ragsdale High School. It is included in the Bond Issue at 20 million up from 4 million in the last bond issuue. This rennovation add no seats. It does not reduce crowding--that will be done by building a new Jamestown Middle School. The great arcade type glass connecting concourse is more appropriate for a Marriott Hotel. This is big money down the drain. Come to the meeting Tuesday night and try to stop it. This project is listed as number "2" in priority even though it cannot start for four years. (The new Middle School must be completed first.) This project needs to go on a follow-on bond issue, not the one under consideration now.

I served on this project team and Alan Duncan and Joe Hill said that the cost of this school per square foot is about the same as other new schools so that the 'green' didn't really cost much. I don't have my notes in front of me so can't verify their quotes. That is not to say that it couldn't have been plainer and cheaper. I think the architect committee should demand that the guys that they chose put everything in that is required and if it doesn't make the budget, then they have to go back and redesign the school, not value engineer out things to fit the budget. Wasn't that the architect's jog in the first place! Which is first the design and then the build, or the design needs to fit the cost allotment!

BTW The flat tv's were donated to the school by the guys that do the school pictures, so they didn't cost the taxpayers (thank goodness)

Another thing we should quit doing is opening schools in the middle of the year-- it is not cost effective nor can it be good for education.

Debora,

From the News-Record article entitled Guilford County Schools Go Green, dated August 6, 2006:

"Guilford County Schools bid Northern and Southern middle schools, both about 141,000 square feet, a few months apart, Hill said. Construction costs for the conventional school were $9,300 cheaper.

"Northern cost us 7 cents a square foot more than Southern," Hill said. "Peanuts."

So, if going green costs peanuts, then why are the Northern schools so much more expensive than schools being built in other counties?

Even if the flat scheen televisions are "donated" to the school, why are they needed? What do they add to teh educaton of the students? They just add an impression of excess. Why didn't the picture people donate flat screen televisions to our low-performing schools, as well? Do the parents in those schools not buy school pictures as well? It seems that the parents across the county "paid" for the televisions. They didn't really come without a cost. I would say that if tehy wanted to "voluntarily" donate something to the school, then it should have been someting that adds to the educating of students, not televisions .

could it be all the minority contracts that do not have to bid on jobs

could it be the many contractors who know GCS's reputation and do not want do these jobs so it costs more

Stormy,
I am not saying that our schools aren't too expensive, quite the contrary. My thoughts are that the standards are different than other counties. My point was that being green didn't cost alot more than not. It seems the archetict committee decides on who gets what school to design and then puts a price tag on it. I think the we should decide how much a school should cost and then get the right person to design it within those parameters.

Speaking for myself, I will take any donation that anyone wants to give our schools and will not look a gift horse in the mouth. We don't get many. Also, I don't know if the picture people are putting large screens in other new schools or not, maybe they don't have that contract for the other new schools. It seems to me it is like asking for the drink industry to donate scoreboards, it is done all the time; this is just a case of new technology. I have no idea what the TV'(s) will be used for.

Debora,

We are in agreement on the matter of how they commission schools to be built. GCS' taste is way too expensive for their pocketbook. They also show an amazing lack of judgment when they build a Taj Mahal school while other schools are falling apart and most children attend class everyday in trailers.

My concern about businesses donating flat screen televisions for hallways to individual schools is that it is further assisting the system in creating inequal schools. This whole thing just provides greater fuel to the fire about some have-not schools that are low-performing not being equal. And, given what I see at Northern, I have to agree that it is the case. It's not the parents or students fault, but people at Eugene are creating problems that don't need to be created. If the picture people insisted upon donating something, then why not something useful in the classroom, as teachers always have to go begging for items needed. I question that the picture people insisted upon making expensive contributions in the first place. Rather, I suspect that someone at GCS "suggested" that flat screen televisions would be a nice gesture, if they wanted to ensure that they retained their contract for pictures. The whole thing stinks, Debora. As you know, nothing is ever free, and certainly flat screen televisions don't come cheap, much less free,

Debora,

I am a Civil Engineer. What they have told you is absolute baloney. The extra infrustructure they have put in Northern Middle has put millions onto the cost of the school. Even the flat screens which were donated you say need wiring. This is a lot of manual labor and it doesnt come for free. I agree with Stormy and the Rhino (went and got a copy today). Its not fair that many schools throughout the County sit in trailers and one section sits in luxury. If they had toned it down then there might have been enough money for the middle school in Jamestown. Its nothing less than absurd.
I will not support the new bond.

I know thet the School Board plan to build another Northern type school at Eastern but I do not support that.
I will not vote yes to the bond while they build schools like this and there are trailers all over the County.

VOTE "NO" ON SCHOOLBONDS

KEARNS / GRIER/ HAYES

THE WACKOS MUST GO-OR NO DOUGH

Correction class, Ms. Hayes is already on recent public record as stating that she is not going to recommend to "her people" that they vote for any new School Bonds (HER MINORITY CONTRACTOR VIEWS SHOOTING HER OWN PEOPLE IN THE FOOT). (As a further note it is Ms. Hayes who uses the phrase "her people" NOT ME, the last thing I want is for THE REAL TRUTH, DEMON DEACON, or any of the other Socialists to start dealing from the race card deck again.)

Therefore the correct equation is:

Grier + Kearns + Cooke + Childs = 0 Bonds

Do you really think Deena will go "No" on bonds? The bonds is where the big money comes from to support her household. I predict she will go "Yes" on bonds. After all, turn about is fair play. We put Dudley, Hariston and Faulkner head of the line, she wouldn't turn her back on the crowding and problems at Southeast, Summerfield, Jamestown Middle etc? Deena will go "Yes" after the BOE agrees to another round of funding for Dudley stadium and for the building not yet renovated. She knows a "No" will hurt all areas of the county.

Dear Dave,
I am certainly not a engineer :) I was just stating what has been said and published. I believe the cost of Southern Middle was very close per square foot to Northern.
I agree there are too many trailers. My area has Summerfield-16; Laughlin-4; NWMS 20(could be 18); NWHS-it seems to change everyear, but about 20-25... so I can agree with your views.
BTW, I didnt vote for this bond, and it has some direct impact on my son,(Northern High) but I saw the writing on the wall, that we would get two new schools, but really no help with the buildings that are in desparate need! Also I didn't trust the BOE to make sensible decisions.

Debora, having said that how can you not be outraged at the excess's of Northern middle?

Guilford Math, I agree. No accountability, no fiscal responsibility = No bonds.

Having not been to any other new middle school, I don't know if this school is that more excessive than other new schools in Guilford County. They have a gym, an auxillary gym/multi purpose room, a media center, classrooms, etc. If it is the green issue, I will hold my opinion until we find out if it saves money over the next 30 years.

Much of the additional money was spent on well water and sewage. Not having city utilites can be costly. They spent some of the contingency money of rock removal which can't be known until they start blasting for storage tanks etc.

I don't usually voice my outrange at many things on this board, I find it more effective to try to have a decent conversation that I can share and learn things from.

Have you been to Northern Middle? Is it alot better than Kernodle, which I believe was the last new middle school, along with Hairston? It was built from that same basic concept, with of course modifications. I have never been to Kernodle so I don't know. Is it alot fancier than Dudley? They spent over $31 million(4 years ago) on that remodel, and didn't have to spend on new fields, water, sewer, or road upgrades. It is a new school-- it will look better than an old school, just the facts. Could a school have been built cheaper. I am sure it could, see my earlier post.
I would like to see more brick and mortor schools. I would like to see rushed (HP Central)academies go by the way side ($7Mil for the choice plan and how many million 2 years later for the cooking?), I would like to see plans pushed down to the BOE as"we need it now" and yet one year later, it's still not done and double the cost (Smith) left out of the equation. I would like to see the neediest area's of growth get the help, instead of new schools where there wasn't any growth (Hairston) I could go on, but you get the idea.

I certainly didn't approve the architect or the plan or the cost. What I did do was volunteer to go to monthly meetings for 2.5 years to try to get the biggest bang for our dollar and to try to represent my community voice with things like transition questions/problems, transportation issues... Access to parent parking, handicapp ramps, etc. Even with all my hard work and the voice of other volunteers, they opened the school before the water was approved for drinking. They have to bring in bottle water and cold lunches from Kernodle. The school in school was such a rotten idea. The kids are glad to be in their new school, but they felt like red-headed stepchildren housed at two different schools for 1/2 of the year.

Joe

Deena voted "NO" for the last bonds. She was the Lone Ranger on the BOE. So "YES" she will do this until she gets more contracts for her husband's business. On that note read BOE rules on Conflict of Interest.

Yes:

Is Deena married?

Deena is not married, but apparently shares a home with someone high up in Colmar (not sure that is the correct name, but a minority owned business that GCS does alot of business with)

According to my sources which are very reliable Deena IS married. Also if you will notice in the Rhino she has refused to answer that question specifically. See Conflict of Interest section about spouse members under BOE rules. Why does Deena never explain when she abstains from a vote? Alan Duncan explains why he abstains, for instance, when his law firm is involved somehow.

Deb,

Not just "a lot of business" but according to the Rhino the majority of minority business.

If Northern Middle and Southern Middle both cost about the same, and the high cost are not related to the "green", then why does it cost significantly more to build a school in Guilford County than Forsyth? It's not because Foryth builds dumps for schools, they are quality. What's the real answer? Is something going on behind the scenes? And, Co-Mor is the name of the company.

Does anyoone really believe with the significant work going to Co-Mor that Deena will really hold out support for the bonds? Really?

Stormy,
do both systems include the same things? Technology, books, furniture into the cost? I don't know and was wondering if you did. I haven't had time to invest the building survey to the extreme, but seems like some of our rooms are built bigger than FCS. I have no idea why the difference unless the contractors don't want to deal with all the MWBE mess. We seem to hold companies at a much higher standard than the state or national rules. They have to jump through more hoops for sure.

There is no question that Schools are more costly to build in Guilford County than in Forsyth County. The differential is in the range of 10% to 20%. All you have to do is talk with contractors. They will either not bid on Guilford County schools or they bid at a level sufficent to compensate them for the aggravation the county and school imposes on them. Working for a construction manager like we have is no fun.

Stormy,

What do you know about construction? Sure on the surface it looks like GCS spends more to build a school than Forsythe County but you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm certainly not an expert (of course you seem to know it all) but I do know that prices can vary to the extreme when you simply change locations. I know that the schools you are referring to in Forsythe don't have the same features and in many ways are second class to GCS. For instance the school in Forsythe you keep comparing to has the cheapest HVAC system, poorer quality roof, narrower hallways (less safe), less than adequate gym, less than adequate cafeterias. They also don't finish amenity packages and require booster clubs etc to raise money and pay for things that GCS provides. They may save money in construction but their schools will have to have the roofs replaced sooner. Their climate control systems will be more problematic. Its like buying a Chevrolet instead of a Honda. The Chevrolet will be cheaper up front but cost you a lot more to drive.

As for being GREEN... Hurray if it costs more then so be it. We need to set the standard for environmental responsibility and where is a better place to teach that lesson than in our schools. Doing anything less is irresponsible.

Now as for merit based pay. I think merit based pay would improve our schools. Workers loose incentive, initiative and drive when they aren't rewarded. If they believe they can skate through w/o fear of a pay cut many will skate through. The secret is in how you evaluate merit. Our current system of punishing teachers in low performing schools is absurd. Hurt a school because of low performance thereby ensuring future low performance...ridiculas. Teacchers should be evaluated independently based on the job they do and not by some measure of how their school as a whole performs. That is one of the biggest problems with NCLBH. Merit based pay is long over due. Fortunately the school board has been able to give Terry Grier merit based incentives so we can keep him here!

The Real Truth

"Climate control more problematic"...TRT

I guess you are not up to snuff on all the problems Dudley has had. A 30 million, most expensive renovation in the county, should have HVAC that works. Go as Mr. Quick.

What about Chevy, Honda or Volvo station wagon with lots of liberal bumper stickers and Kerry/Edward loser stickers? Which is cheaper?

Actually you could adopt a bunch of different children and fit them in a station wagon. You might save gas on the station wagon but the cost per child would be more if you adoped a bunch children. Then again, you could be diverse.

How many years will it take to recoup the green factor? What about repair on a green system?

You might like a Honda better than Chevy but I tend to like American made stuff.

Buying American helps our economy. Somebody mentioned adopting kids? I think adopting kids right here in the USA is a better idea too.

But, to each his own.

Yes, we wpend too much on schools here in GC.

Yes Deena has a conflict of interest and should not be voting.

NO NO NO BONDS!!

RT,

I know a little bit about construction, but it seems that you know everything there is to know. How is it that you know so much about Forsyth Schools? Or at least you would like to give the impression that you do. Since you state that Forsyth (It is spelled Forsyth, not Forsythe), builds second class schools, where is the documentation of that fact? We'd love to see it. I'd also like to see the side by side comparison supporting the claims that you have made. I think that it will be difficult for you to do so, unless you work for the schools.

Forsyth County officials and citizens seem satisfied with the level of infrastructure that they are building and at what cost; I have heard no complaints. On the other hand, I have heard much about problems with what is being done in this county (Dudley as one example).

Even if your claims should be proven to be true, my question is why must Guilford Schools build Taj Mahals to serve the needs of our students? If we build school buildings so expensively, then there are alot of other projects that can't and won't get done. Because of the cost overruns of Northern, several other needed projects didn't happen as voters thought would happen when they approved the bond referendum. There is no unlimited funds for school construction. Taxpayers will eventually say enough, and when they do, we'll stil have many, many kids going to class every day in a trailer.

You are wrong. Using limited, precious tax funds in a lavish and irresponsible manner is the worst thing that can be done. And, that is what our schools and board are doing. Our children deserve better.

Debora,

I do not know what, if any, diferences may exist between the schools. I am sure there are some, though. However, I would suggest that technology, books, and such are not part of the capital cost of a school building, so that shouldn't come into play. Some rooms may be larger at Northern, that is possible, but to my knowledge both schools were built to accomodate similar size student bodies.

And, since the board has chosen to use the Northern plans at Eastern, you can bet that the cost to build Eastern will be excessive as well.

The very fact that we are discussing the matter and speculating on it, tells us that there is an absolute vacuum of information coming from central office. One would think that they would want taxpayers to have full knowledge of how they are using their funds. But, they do not inform. All we know is that it takes more of our tax dollars to build a school building in Guilford County than any other county in the state. Before I vote for new school bonds, I'd like to know why and feel that it is justified. I do not feel that selected school children should attend a school, that is a Taj Mahal, when the rest of the students in the county go to class in a trailer.

If the answer is that it costs so much because GCS personnel are so hard to do busness with, let's get different personnel. Doh!

Any right-thinking person can look at this matter and know that something is very wrong with this picture, Debora. Very, very wrong. And, my radar really goes off on anything when Real Truth starts defending it.

Perhaps, you should direct your questions to Real Truth. He/she has all of the answers.

"Gov. Mike Easley asked state lawmakers Monday night to provide college grants to middle and low-income students and expand his successful early-college high school program to all 100 counties."

Looks like Governor Mike just played a trump card on Terry Grier. He's got a bigger, better program. Of course, I didn't read how he plans to pay for it. I guess they can take it out of the millions kof revenue that they get from the Education Lottery???

Come to think about it, why doesn't he just provide grants to students of all income levels, including undocumented workers? Let's make it a "comprehensive" program. Just raise taxes on everyone, that'll do it.

What I question about the new Northern and Northern Middle is how much overcrowding did these schools relieve from NWH and NWM? NWH has been severely overcrowded for many, many years while seats were added to landlocked schools in the county where there was no growth.

Deb, do you know with the building of Northern High and Northern Middle how much NWH and NWM are still overcrowded?

Any wouldn't begrudge any child a nice new school as the children in this county have gone without for so long. As to what it should actually cost to build vs what the final costs end up, the "whys" should be more transparent to the taxpayers. If $500,000 wasn't wasted on racial healing seminars and other high fees like hiring a minority contracts coordinator (which probably helps contribute to keeping many building costs in GC high because the jobs are not bid out), cooking schools, the HP Lottery Plan, etc. the taxpayers would have more faith in the system. The spending track record does not look good.

What is still puzzling is why Eastern would cost so much to rebuild as the land is already there?

The Real Truth

I don't know where you get your info., but I do know that I have been in Reagan High School in Forsyth County on multiple ocassions. The gym is large, airy, lighted well, and above sufficient. It is nicer than any gym that I have been in in Guilford County. I have been in every high school gym in our county except the new Dudley gym and the new NE gym. The hallways are also very wide and spacious (much more so than at my sons school). The bathrooms are very well done and the cafeteria is awesome. If I am not mistaken, the other new high school in Forsyth County is identical to Reagan.

I have no idea what schools in Guilford County you are referring to as far as GCS providing so Booster clubs don't have to. At my sons school, if the Booster Clubs don't raise the money.....nothing is accomplished.

I have no knowledge about the HVAC, roofs, and other things you mentioned, but I do know firsthand that the gyms, hallways, and cafeterias are all well done!

We have also been to Reagan for games. It's an awesome school. My child continually brags on that school. If we could build schools like that for the same cost people may even consider voting for bonds.

Now let's compare to our schools. SWH does not even have tennis courts. Many of our sports facilities are lacking.

NWMS will go down to about 900 next year (high of 1180) last year. WE were up to 1400 until Kernodle was opened. The school was built for 800, so next year will be ONLY 100 over capacity, at least for one year :)

NWHS will lose about 300 next year, and 125 per year for the next two years. That will put next years numbers down to 2100 (capacity 1600)this year the year started at almost 2500.

Sue Ellen, don't forget that Wesleyan added the "Dot Kearns" wing to its school at a reasonable cost to its students.

Now I would state why the folks at Wesleyan call it the "Dot Kearns" wing, but I might anger the Real Truth. Oh yeah, that's right I don't care what the Real Truth thinks.....

It's called the "Dot Kearns" wing because Aunt Dottie drove so many kids out of public school that Wesleyan could afford the addition.

Real Truth,

The HPE had the folowing comment regarding the board's planned $600 milion school bond:

" “If we don’t get those monies, we’ll be in the same situation we are now with overcrowding, dilapidated buildings and schools with (maintenance) needs,” board member Walter Childs said Mon­day."

It's nice to know that we have a Taj Mahal or two for kids to go to school in. Unfortunately, they will only be able to get enough funds from taxpayers to build a couple of them every five years. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the kids will be faced with "overcrowding, dilapidated buildings and schools with (maintenance) needs". Thank you Mr. Childs for speaking the real truth about Guilford County Schools, and he didn't even mention the class room trailers.

Also, thanks to those that provided the real truth about Reagan and Forsyth Schools. The Real Truth is spreading Real Lies. People that have been to Reagan and Atkins know that they are quality schools, without the lavishness and excess.

Stormy, you say "without the lavishness and excess" at Atkins and Reagan but from what I saw they are very lavish, beautiful schools! (Just not over the top) With the option of adding on wings for later growth they are just superbly planned all the way around. Any kid could be proud to go there.

Way to go, Forsyth!!

Hey, Real Truth,

In 2001, Forsyth Schools floated a school bond in the amount of $150 million. They proposed building four new schools at the cost of just short of $65 million as follows:

New Northeast Elementary (Zone 3) Ibraham/Walkertown Area - $8,726,960

New East Middle School - East High School Vicinity
- $10,296,448

New Southeast High School - Petree Elementary School Vicinity - $22,083,600 (Atkins)

New Northwest High School - Robinhood Road / Vienna Vicinity - $23,362,240 (Reagan)

Total New Schools - $64,469,248

These schools were completed on-schedule and on-budget. Imagine four schools (whether second class or not) for $65 million. So, why does it cost that much for one new high school in Guilford County? I just can't reconcile it, but perhaps, you can put some compelling cost comparisons here to educate us on school construction.

Moving Day,

I said "without the lavishness and excess" as an accomodation to Real Truth. I know the real truth about Reagan and Atkins, because I have seen those schools. They are certainly schools where students could be proud to attend and call "my school". Now, let's compare their experience with some of Guilford's schools with students attending class every day in a trailer. How many at Southwest now? Can students be proud to tell people that their school is a trailer? Heck, that doesn;t even qualify as a second class school. It's no class.

Stormy,

You need to stop rehashing the trash printed in the Rhino "All the Rumors Fit To Print." The Rhino isn't journalism its just rumors intended to stir people up. Since you asked for it and you believe everything you read in the Rhino to the point that you just regurgitate on this blog, Why don't you ask the Rhino to do a direct cost comparison instead of making accusations without proof.

I really feel sorry for you since you are gullable enough to use the Rhino as a source of information. It appears you cannot even think for yourself and let the Rhino do your thinking for you. I bet you don't even mind that the Rhino likes to depict scantily clad women and advertise for entertainment that is less than respectable. Are you the kind of person that supports portraying women as sex objects? Is that the kind of conservative you are? Wake up Stormy! those aren't conservative values they are the values of disgusting pigs.

PS. thanks for the spelling lesson! Even when I occassionally use spell checker it sometimes slips by.

Buckmtn,

Its sad how these so called Christians flee to protected enclaves of white middle class schools. Its not very Christian like. Jesus wouldn't approve. Oh well as a Christian I shouldn't be judgemental. You will have to answer that one to a higher power. I for one will walk with Jesus and not turn my back on the less fortunate. I will not be fearful of people who are different either by skin color or economic status but I understand you and your private school croonies can't. I just don't understand how you can call them Christian Schools. There is nothing Christian about them! They should be called Homogeneous Schools where kids all look alike, dress alike and their parents pretend to be practicing Christians to gain admittance for their little white darlings.

The Real Truth

Stormy,

The reason there are so many kids in trailers at Southwest is because you and your neighbors won't take advantage of excess classroom space at Andrews. You are so afraid of black children you would rather have your kids in trailers. You made a choice now shut up and live with it and quit trying to blame others for your mistakes in judgment. Shame on you!

The Real Truth!

Here's a link to Deena's marriage record.

Read here.

(NOTE: Carl, hope you don't mind but I updated your comment so that the link would be live. I'll send you an e-mail with the coding. - Jennifer)

But "John Greene" is the other occupant at her dwelling:

Read here.

(NOTE: Terp, I hope you don't mind but I updated the comment so people could go directly to the link. I'll send a copy to your e-mail so you can see the coding to create a link. - Jennifer )

Real Truth,

I see that you use a slimey trick on this construction issue. You didn't answer any issues, you just tried to use slime.

I have obtained some additional information from credible source on the subject...from a construction official at Forsyth Schools for your and the other readers' consideration and enlightenment. Much of the other information that I have previously provided also came directly from the Forsyth Schools. This is the real truth. You wouldn't know it if it hit you square in the face. You don't have any facts, just slime to smear.

"Quality construction and amenities are totally different discussion points. As you may guess, the local school board sets standards as to the type of amenities that will be available to students and staff. One can state without question that the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School System makes every effort to adhere to guidelines established by the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction for space allocation and basic needs of all students. The one thing we try not to do is construct a facility as an monument to the Design Team. Our facilities have a splash of architectural flair at the entrance and then we construct the basic needs of a school."

"Our HVAC system designs meet building code and ASHRAE standards; however, we have elected to install a "two pipe" system for heating and air conditioning. This means our facilities are either in a heating mode or cooling mode. But, we also install "DX" units where cooling needs will be present during winter heating months. We also provide conditioned outside air (fresh air) to every student classroom space during occupied hours. This is a design decision we incorporate to save money on piping and provide money for roof top fresh air systems."

"Our roofs are single ply heat welded products. Several concerns drive this decision. 1) We save a few bucks on the single ply installation and 2) reroofing can be accomplished when students are in school without the disturbing odors of a "built-up" product."

"As for poor quality or sub-standard schools. Charlotte/Mecklenburg Schools toured our two new high schools, our new middle school, and left us with their evaluation. "You guys are not building junk or second class facilities." We value the peer review."

RT, go back into your hole until you can be discuss issues in a civil manner and provide credible information. You are a vile and pitiful individual. By the way, you are no expert on conservative values, and no one here wants to be lectured by you, least of all, on the subject.

Oh, one last thing, Real Truth,

The only thing that classroom trailers has to do with excess space at Andrews is Map C3 that was slipped in by the school board at the least minute that redistricted kids from across High Point to Southwest. Kids were already going to schools in trailers at Southwest and the board bused more there that could have occupied Andrews. Add to that the booming house construction going on around Southwest, and the problem gets bigger every year.

Afraid of black children? Obviously, you haven't been to Southwest schools lately. Southwest is the most diverse school in the county. Go take a look for yourself, because you do not know of what you speak. The shame is all on you for being uninformed and unwilling to learn the real truth.

Get some new arguments will you. These are getting old and stale.

Folks: I will be highlighting two things on my site and web blog tomorrow...the one-year anniversary of redistricting and where we are now (I had comments prepared for this evening but a sudden commitment took me out tonight...I will embargo them for the next board meeting). I will also highlight discipline problems at Kiser Middle and what can be done about it. I will also break some news related to Kiser before the end of the week. Click on my name below & tune in tomorrow.

E.C.

Real Truth, what kind of sick Pervee are you? What scantilly clad women are you hung up on? Are you one of those sexual predators that needs to be registered with the County and wearing an ankle bracelet?

As far as improper advertising in newspapers around here why don't you take it up with the N&R. I believe they are the ones who accept advertising dollars from every adult bookstore and strip club in the area that will give them the money.

Face the facts that the N&R has no one on staff that can go keystroke for keystoke with anyone at the Rhino.

"Jesus wouldn't approve" TRT

Now she's an expert on what God approves of. Too, too funny.

What in the heck does the Rhino have to do with this discussion. Next you will be telling us they hate animals and are throw cats in lakes.

yep you caught us Real Truth we are afraid of screwing up our children's future by sending them to a failing school, a school that would have been a Title I opt out school had the rules of "the game" not been changed, a school that Judge Manning is looking at, at school that is one of the lowest in the state. yep we're afraid of gangs and getting caught in the crossfire

you are just so smart. you figured us out. and p.s.

WE STILL LOVE GARTH!

Terp and Carl R

Could it be that Deena was married to her live-in in another state?

Does anyone know the laws of Black Muslim marriage? Isn't "divorce" by saying "I divoice you" three times by the husband?

Close sources tell me Deena is married.

Why will she never answer this question?

Why does she not tell anyone why she is abstaining to vote when she abstains?

See Conflict Of Interest under BOE bylaws.

Stormy,

I just used the same slime that you slosh around. You haven't answered the question either. You merely quote #'s but add no validity. All I'm saying is you don't have anything to back up your numbers. You are just regurgitating the Rhino! I do know that the GCS administrators that I know are competent intelligent people and they are working hard to the best interest of all children and not just middleclass white loud mouths and fired teachers (EC Huey aka read my website).

Still Questions,

Your racist ignorance oozes out of your comment above. Are you Garth? Deena's race and her religion have nothing to do with this. It sounds like your worship service is lead by the Grand Dragon, all in white! The her religion has nothing to do with this and neither does her race. But you being the racist pig that you are has to insult and degrade her race and religion. You cannot just disagree with her you have to attack her personally. You are the worst kind of human. OOPs, I shouldn't be judging again... oh well I guess I cannot help myself. Forgive me lord I am human (I even mispell words)!! You are disgusting and your compatriots are too! EC Huey that includes you for getting in bed with these ????!

Even if she is married to the guy he doesn't own the company he just works there. Its not a conflict of interest! Deena sits on the Board and doesn't select contractors. WThe BOE should try to find a way to give as many contracts to minority contractors as they can. Stick to the real issue. I frequently don't like what Deena says but thats not enough to make me attack her race or her religion. She's not a spokesperson for either. She represents her constituants. People you know nothing about, people you want to segregate yourselves from. People you are afraid of because they don't look like you. Deena is particularly frightening to you because she is African American (I don't know what her religion really is and neither do I care, we are all children of the same God whether she is Muslim or not)well educated and articulate and that scares you.

The Real Truth

Deena says some things noone else will say. However, her effort is unfocused. Increased minority participation has about zero to do with academic achievement of minorty inter-city boys. Some believe the low achievement stems from poverty in the black community. Trying to prove this idea is very difficult at best. The problems of low levels of achievement stem from low expectations, inadequate reading, and living in an unfocused farmily and community. In black communities where family income is over 100k, the children do better than those in poverty, but not much better. I wish Deena would hold the BOE's foot to the fire classroom managment, discipline, and etc. This would pay dividends.

Real Truth,

I've provided a ton of documentation here, and you have provided nothing but opinion and hot air. To do a thorough analysis and cost comparison, GCS would have to release firm financial numbers for comparison, and they won't do that, because they would look mighty bad if they did.

I stand by the information that I have assembled and provided. They support my assertions. I've gotten answers to counter your allegations about the inferiority of the Forsyth Schools' construction. Let's see you avtually provide some thing in this discussion, other than your pitiful slanderous comments.

And, when someone resorts to calling someone else a racist pig, it's because they have no rational and logical arguments, and that's where you are. Please say something that is intelligent for a change.

Real Truth,

I see that you said that Deena was "articulate". Don't you know that black people consider it an insult to be called "articulate". You just insulted Deena.

TRT, my thoughts are my own and I'm proud that my thoughts and comments represent like-minded citizens who only want the best for their children. I'm not a politician and I'm not in bed with anyone. Your petty comments are getting old.

Let the record show, folks, that I have attempted to extend the olive branch to TRT, I've invited her to have coffee so that we can discuss the issues, not blow smoke and hot air. She has not responded. So I've taken my dialogue to those directly who want to hear them...you, and those who visit my website and blog, and the counter is nearing 1,800.

BTW TRT, the days of you continuing to defend Grier are dwindling, go to my blog and see what Grier said earlier this school year to the new principal of Kiser Middle.

2008 will be the year of change in Guilford County. Instead of working for the status quo, join us and this grass-roots movement for real change in our schools.

Be Blessed...

E.C.

"People you are afraid of because they don't look like you."....TRT

Ummm, actually Deena looks a LOT like me. I'm talking about skin tone, not ....uh....lets just say... size and features. As a matter of fact, her hair color is a lot like yours, TRT. Are you a distant relative?

"She's not a spokesperson for either" TRT

Now that is a true fact. She just thinks she is. Refer to past comments at BOE about "her people".

she sure doesn't speak for me...and she definately isn't speaking for her kids and staff at smith.

E.C.

"It's not a conflict of interest!" TRT

Question: If it is not a conflict of interest why does Deena abstain from voting on certain contracts? Why does she not explain why she is abstaining?

I don't have to explain nuttin to anybody. Why I don't like your racist behavior, who in the world thinks that I have to explain myself to the taxpayers. Why your attitude is just what I'm talking about when I refer to Slaves and Slavemasters.