News-Record.com

I think this is great news. It shows that GCS is trying to raise the bar for students to achieve higher. Some parents think that the emphasis in our schools now is to teach to the lowest common denominator with all the emphasis going towards AYP but I think this demonstrates that GCS is raising the bar for students that are gifted. Teaching at different levels for students with different needs. Great Job Terry Grier!

Its also interesting to look at free and reduced lunch statistics. Take High Point Central for example. 58% of HPC students are on free an reduced lunch (below the poverty line) and they ranked 243 in the country as compared to Southwest which ranked 342 with only 28% of students in poverty. Huh, how is it that the kids at Central outperform the kids at Southwest even though they have more challenges? Why is it that the parents of SW children were terrified of their kids attending Central? One would think they would want their child to go to the school with the best accademic opportunity. I wonder what motivates those SW people? (must be sports, because they surely aren't ethnocentric people fearful of others from different walks of life and economic status)Clearly its not academics? Would they really sacrafice their kids educational opportunities just to avoid a short bus ride (most of them have cars anyway)? Andrews was ranked 483 in the country with almost twice as many kids in poverty than SW. Could it be that good things are actually taking pllace in Central and Andrews? Why is SW ranked so low with all its advantages?

Interesting questions to ponder.

The Real Truth

RT, Its great that Central and Andrews are doing so well. I guess what you are confirming is that diversity is not a requirement for educational sucess. Super!

Congratulations to Central and well done Andrews.

HP Central scores are higher due to offering IB and AP-- Grimsley/Central and Smith are the only three that have IB and that makes the class choice higher.

Jennifer, the measurement is made by dividing the number of AB/IB classes taken by the numbers of graduating seniors? Is this correct? Sophomores, Juniors and Seniors take AP tests.

If you look at the excel sheet (sheet 2) you can compare percentage of students that pass at least one test.

Western is doing something great! Can we study that and do the same at more schools! They had 65% of there students pass at least one AP class. Best in the county. Grimsley had 49%, NW about 35% and the rest lower. Dudley had only 3.4%.

I believe that Western is probably our second most diverse HS behind Smith. I think it is great the huge jump in passing they have made. Wish all the schools were improving. Have all schools had their AP/IB finals?

With this low a passing rate the overall system is a sham.

Putiing children into classes they are not ready for is criminal.

I bet the school passed them whether the could pass the exams or not. Someone check

Andrews had only 7% passing right above Dudley. It so happens that both of these schools are on Judge Manning's list. What a joke.

Read what's REAL, RT

I guess what motivates SW is what motivates any other families with school pride. They want to stay at their home school, just like the Dudley people and the rest of the county. Just like Central and Andrews were not being asked to bus anyone out in the original "Choice" Plan that was not true choice, like the recent decision. Only SW had the losing lottery ticket.

Deb,

I agree on Western. It certainly sounds like this should be a school to watch.

SW has not had all their AP finals yet. I do know that for some of the classes the practice AP test is given as a grade, counting for a large per cent of the final grade. Also it's put on a curve like many of the tests are.

Some of the other AP classes have various projects, not a test, for their finals.

RT

yes we know you love Grier

yes we know you continue to hate SW

it continues to be boring

yes it is Academics at SWH. This year SWH seniors brought in the most scholarship money ever in the history of the school. Ironically and unfortunately, they also have a large number of seniors not graduating.

my daughter tells me it's the hard core druggies and the gang bangers who aren't graduating.

yes all schools have their problems, SW included

yes we all have SCHOOL PRIDE

If one school had 65% pass at least one test (Out of how many tests taken by each student, on average? What was "passing": 65%?), while most schools had far fewer; and all the other schools were below 50% passing--- I have to say, I am not impressed.

I know the official line on this is that it is better for students from all abilities and levels to be strongly challenged with (supposedly) college-level work (which college's level?).

However, it appears students are clearly lost and unable to retain hardly any of the information. Isn't it, thus, likely they are extraordinarily frustrated (perhaps even tuned out/bored) and will probably turn away even more from taking rigorous courses in college?

"Huh, how is it that the kids at Central outperform the kids at Southwest even though they have more challenges?"

As usual, R.T., you got it wrong. This report measures how many students "took" the test, not "passed" the test. Taking more tests doesn't equate to outperforming. Why not take a look at how many students passed the test with a 4 or 5 as a percentage of tests taken? If that still holds up, I would agree that Central outperformed SW, even though they have the advantage of the IB students. Want to do the math?

I chuckle to know that you have to type "bush" every time you make a post to validate your posting.

"I think this demonstrates that GCS is raising the bar for students that are gifted."

R.T., can you explain this one. I'm mystified at your logic. How does this report raise the bar for gifted students? Is this more illogical bloviating by you?

Jim,

I would say that most students (at least at SWH) probably take two AP tests, with some seniors taking 3 or 4. There are many students who do very well in these classes, but being on block schedule some choose not to go to the review classes for those courses they took first semester. Other seniors don't care to study for the tests (or even care if they pass) as by the time the tests are taken, they already know the colleges they are attending, have worked hard and received their scholarships for same, and are focused on graduation and social activities of same. So at that point in time, the AP tests aren't a priority like they are in sophomore and junior years knowing those scores will be asked on college and scholarship applications.

Stormy some colleges accept 3s as college credits. Schools like Duke and Wake only take 4s and 5s for course credit. Also Duke counts theirs differently. They don't exactly give you "credit" for a course, just let you start at the next level course. Which most college students want to take their maths (building type courses) again anyways, especially if they took say Statistics in 10th grade.

I can personally say my child would have been lost without AP classes and totally bored. But for others who can't handle the workload, honors classes would be better. The coures she took were challenging and most of the teacher were excellent. Sadly we are losing two AP teachers this year at SWH that I know of: one is "retiring" to teach piano, the other will be reaching at NC State.

AP classes are a total waste for students who aren't going to college anyway. For those who want to compete for top schools, they are absolutely necessary. These colleges look closely at a rigorous high school curriculum and your GPA. They would rather see a B in an AP class than an A in an Honors class. Colleges also ask how many AP classes are offered at your high school, so they are also looking at the school as a whole.

meant to say the other will be "teaching" at NC State. also please excuse other typos - a little early for me in the day

I understand Grier's rhetoric on pushing kids to take AP classes (and their exams) - even those kids who would not normally take AP classes.

However,

When less than 10% of the students in a given school actually pass the exams, wouldn't the money spent on the exams have been better used toward one-on-one tutoring?

Morgan, Jennifer - do you know how much each exam costs and how much GCS spends each year on AP exams?

I appreciate the administration pushing schools to offer AP classes. My son would not have taken an AP class if he was not pushed to do so.

He is now a Freshman at NC State with a 3.96 GPA and he called home and told me to make his younger brother take every AP course the school offered.

Looking back he sees the opportunities that he missed. Some students want to take the easy road and they successfully con their parents into believing them. Parents need to be educated on what an AP course offers the student so they can fully support this program.

This is one thing that Guilford County is doing right. We just need more AP qualified teachers and we need to pay them what they are worth!

Last year, AP exams cost $70 each. Some of the students taking AP courses are 'forced' into them and are not permitted to drop (during the usual drop/add time) them unless they have an "F". If these students do not want to take AP classes, I don't understand why we are making them.

My oldest daughter attends college at an out-of-state university. She told me that her peers (who are mostly in-state students at the university) took more AP courses (because more were offered) and their school districts DID NOT pay for the exams. She said these kids scored 4's and 5's on all of the exams they took and were able to get credit for some college level classes.

I would like to see the statistics on GCS actual pass rate (which according to most rigorous colleges is a 4 or 5 on the AP exam). As far as I know this figure has never been disclosed by GCS.

Based on what my daughter told me, I would venture to say that the students at her university had incentive to take AP courses and do well in them because the exam cost was coming out of their own pockets and because it was a true choice for them to take the course and the exam.

I believe the tests currently cost $83. So, the cost for 8000+ tests is approximately $675,000. Lots of money given the passing rate.

ark,

Let's face it, Grier bought some good press in Newsweek for $675,000 of our tax dollars. The passing rate is irrelevant to him. It helps pad his resume at no cost to him. And, I am sure that this gives him some achievement points on his evaluation each year with the board.

Anyone reading the headline of both the N&R and the “Special Friday Notes” sent out yesterday would have to be impressed with the number of Guilford County high schools that made the Newsweek list of the nation’s best schools, based on the “Challenge Index” devised by Jay Mathews. Inclusion on the list shows that our high schools are offering the most rigorous courses to a broad spectrum of our students. For those of us who know first hand what our high schools’ education quality is really like, the phrase that “the rating is not meant to measure overall quality of a school” is the most important part of the Newsweek rankings, for we would hate for our schools to be judged only by the abysmal passing rate of seniors on the AP tests. The research supporting the idea that simply being in AP classes is a good thing for students and prepares them better for college, regardless of test scores, I will accept without question; for that is the rationale GCS uses in both offering the courses and paying for the training of teachers and testing of students. I think, however, there are some practical ramifications of this decision by GCS which are glossed over the in glow of positive PR.

First, in order to offer all the AP classes deemed desirable at every campus, classes often have to make with many fewer than the standard number of students. Making classes with fewer students than the average class means, for instance, that at a school where 30 students per English class is the norm, if an AP class is allowed to make with only 15-20 that 10 or more students have to be placed elsewhere. No extra teachers are allotted to a school for this purpose, which means that several sections of English 11 or 12 at our hypothetical school will be well over the standard number of 30: somewhat unfair to the teachers absorbing the overload. The other solution—even less ideal—is for a teacher, often in Foreign Language or Cultural Arts, to have the two or three AP students in the same class with Honors students so there is a full class; neither group can possibly get what they need.

Second, the county pays for all the AP exams taken—nearly $700,000 this year. It’s never been clear exactly where this money comes from, for the line items on the budget are somewhat opaque; the supposition is that it—along with money for the PSAT tests—is skimmed off the top of money allotted to each school, earmarked by the Central Office before the School Based Leadership Team at any school decides on it’s own budget. While the experience alone might be worth it to the students involved, the very low passing rates suggests that lots of money is being wasted. What everyone needs to know is that the ETS has a method by which testing fees for any of its tests can be waived for low-income students by application; GCS makes no attempt to help parents avail themselves appropriately of this option. I understand that most counties in NC either expect each student to pay for their own tests outright or to pay up front and then be reimbursed if a passing score—3, 4 or 5—is achieved. The last would certainly put some pressure on students to work harder and to do better on the tests than they currently do. When one considers the cost of one college course at a four-year school—anywhere from $400 to $800—the price of an AP test is a real bargain; a semester’s worth of AP credit would cost $400 in testing fees but save probably many thousands of dollars.

Third, putting students who are not fully ready for college-level work into AP classes “just for the experience” means that each AP teacher has to pace what is supposed to be a college class more slowly to accommodate those students or teach it as a college course and let students fall by the wayside (see the next paragraph for the solution to this last scenario). Such accommodation, while serving less prepared students means that the students truly ready for a college-level class end up not being as fully prepared for the AP test as they would have been otherwise. While differentiation of instruction is certainly appropriate for every high school class, it seems very inappropriate for college-level courses. As anyone with time in college knows, professors design their classes to be at an appropriate level and pace them accordingly and those not ready for the class either drop out or fail; of course, stringent placement tests are the norm in college, so students not meeting the prerequisites are not allowed into most classes, and students in a class that is over their head are encouraged to drop it during the drop/add period at the beginning of each semester. Scores on EOC tests or the PSAT, the basis for including students in AP classes currently in GCS, are hardly an accurate basis for placement decisions. An interesting aside is that students achieving certain scores on certain tests are automatically placed into an AP class and can only be removed from the class if their parents come up and sign some sort of opt-out form.

Fourth, if the experience of being in an AP class alone is valuable, then having a certain number of students failing the class would be expected and acceptable, especially if the teacher conducts the class at the level and pace of a college-level course. However, failing, or even giving lots of low grades to, students who should not have been in the class in the first place is not an option currently; I suspect that if a student is in an AP class that the expectation is that they will receive at least a B regardless of their score on the AP test itself. In fact, notwithstanding the “experience is it’s own good” attitude, AP teachers in our high schools must meet with their principals at the end of each year to review their students’ scores and explain their plans to improve scores next year—excepting, of course, a more selective method of assigning students to the class. If participation alone is a good, then teachers should not have to explain, justify or even discuss the scores their students made on the AP test or feel any pressure to pass a student placed, probably incorrectly, in their AP class.

As a former coach, I understand the idea that if a player who has made the varsity team but is riding the bench can get playing time, they might eventually raise their skills to the point where they will move up, maybe even into a starting position—if not this year, the next. And that seems to be the analogy of placing students into AP classes. Unfortunately, judging by the passing rates, students are obviously being placed into AP classes who have not made the varsity, maybe not even the JV team. When a major assault on a teacher takes 4-5 days to be reported in the paper, but the Newsweek list comes out one day and is reported on the next and a “Special Friday Notes” comes out the same afternoon, people even less jaded than I might think that the whole AP exercise in Guilford County seems like nothing so much as another part of a larger public relations campaign.

Dear Ark,
finally a chance for an open and honest discussion, and I appreciate your thoughts and comments. They seem right on to me.

Ark,

Yes, thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed assessment - and one on which I agree.

Pam,

Thanks for your post. you are right AP tests push kids to do their best. GCS is doing this right.

Bobbi,

When a school has 58% of its kids below the poverty line, the majority of kids in the school cannot pay for the test. Are you suggesting that they be excluded because their parents are poor? GCs should continue to pay for every test and encourage kids to take them.

Way to go Terry Grier!

Pam,

Thanks for your post. you are right AP tests push kids to do their best. GCS is doing this right.

Bobbi,

When a school has 58% of its kids below the poverty line, the majority of kids in the school cannot pay for the test. Are you suggesting that they be excluded because their parents are poor? GCs should continue to pay for every test and encourage kids to take them.

Way to go Terry Grier!

Why are some of the posts not being put on the blog? If certain things are grounds for non-posting, tell us what they are. Thanks.

According to ark's post above:

"ETS has a method by which testing fees for any of its tests can be waived for low-income students by application; GCS makes no attempt to help parents avail themselves appropriately of this option."

I understand that there are students that are living below the poverty line -- I am in no way suggesting that they be precluded from taking the AP Exams. But I do feel that all students need to take ownership of their education. Not everything should be (or is) a handout or freebie. For those who can't afford the testing fees,there are fee exemptions that are available. Such exemptions or waivers are offered on AP Exams, SAT's, for the NCAA Clearinghouse fees, the ACT exams, etc. School Counselors would be able to assist the students obtain any exemptions or waivers as needed. The College Board website and test applications fully disclose their willingness to assist.

Why should GCS pay for the exams for students who don't care about getting AP credit (my high school daughter tells me there are many of these non-caring students in her school and the classes were told the exam was required or the school would not give them credit for the course)? As was stated by someone previously, many students in these AP classes are in their involuntarily and either have no intention of continuing on to college or are just plain immature or stubborn to realize the opportunity they have been given. I resent that tax payers are expected to pay $83 per exam for students who 'bubble' in designs or patterns on these exams because they just don't give a hoot.

Ark,

Agree on many of your points with a few exceptions. Of the AP courses I know of at SWH, As and Bs are not just given out because a student is in an AP course. I know a top 10 senior student who was making a D in AP stats until she got a private tutor last year; many others who struggled with AP English and World History to get a C.

As stated in Newsweek the rating does no measure the overall rating of the school, point taken, having struggling schools on the Newsweek list.

I do not agree that students should have to pay for these tests because it could exclude many students who have the potential but not the money. I do agree that students who have no desire, but especially do not have the potential nor the focus it takes to keep up with an AP class be forced to take an AP class. I do, however, have to agree with Pam that some students just take the easy road and realize too late when they get to college that they did not have a strong foundation like their peers. Each student should be looked at individually. The decision should be between the student, parent and the teacher. But unfortunately, some of these students who have been put in AP classes have parents who do not get involved.

I have to disagree with your costs of courses. Private schools are much higher than that (Duke being around $36,000 for tuition per year.) The overall benefit of APs is that it helps one's GPA, a strong prerequisite for many top colleges along with great SAT scores. Also colleges and scholarship applications ask numerous questions about AP courses taken and the number of AP courses offered at the school. These same questions are also asked on student interviews for scholarships. At many colleges only 4s and 5s count for credit. At some schools, neither counts. Wake Forest counts a 5 in AP World History; Duke will not count AP World History with even a 5. Some other state schools count 3s. Every college is different if you check their websites.

We should not waste money to pay for students who really are not ready for these classes.

There are many other costs that should be cut first before AP test fees:

Racial Healing seminars by suspect groups budgeted at $500,000

Cooking academies

Other acadamies that aren't working

The list goes on.

Joe,

We're having trouble with our blog system randomly pulling comments for "verification." The comments are supposedly in the system still, one of our tech guys told me today. I just need to find them. I've got to head out to back-to-back meetings right now, so I'll get to this tomorrow and try to recover those comments.

Sorry about the inconvenience folks.

Everyone:

I'm glad my comments have sparked a reasonable, respectful discussion of a very difficult question. The problem is how to make sure that every student gets what he or she needs regardless of money, but when money seems tight how do you decide where and how much to put into any program?

If I had a magic wand, I would identify talent--academic, artistic, etc--as early as possible and then work with the identified students so that when they arrived in high school they could be ready to play the "academic game" at the same speed and level as other students who had been going at it full tilt since kindergarten. Waiting until 10th, 11th or 12th grade and then putting weaker students in with high achievers seems a recipe for failure and a watering down of a curriculum.

Of course, this leads to a second big conumdrum in education. If you put weaker students in with strong students with the laudable goal of pushing/pulling the weaker students up because of the rigor of the stronger students, what happens to the stronger students? The gap can only close if the stronger students stand still or slow down, or the weaker students improve at a pace much greater than the stronger students are improving. I wish it could be different, but that's the logic of the situation.

Basically, I want every student to have whatever they need. Push every student to achieve their full potential and this would be a wonderful place indeed.

We are seeing the negative effect that is occuring with the flat line of our AL students in measurable growth. We put the most time/money/emphasis on pulling up the lowest students, sometimes challenging the middle and hoping the high will be assistant teachers in many ways. This might not be happening in HS as much as middle, I don't have a personal reference to draw on. I would never say that the lowest students don't need additional help, but there has to be a balance.
In my son's strong AL Lang Arts there are 35 students with one teacher, that same teacher has 17 students in her inclusion class with an additional teacher... 35 to 1; or 17 to 2...where is the equity in that? is it helping? One would hope, but several of those students never do the work, homework, etc. They are bidding their time until they can drop out of school. Is this right or fair to those that have the ability to do more?

The same can be said for AP/honors.. if we pad the class with those that can't and those that won't.. what happens to those that can?
I have heard that many AP exams are 25% of more of the grade... so how do people make A or B on their report card if they dont pass the exam, and again what level are we teaching to?
Is Dudley teaching to the same standard as Western? It seems obvious that the students are learning as much.. of course neither are the Central, Grimsley, NW or any other school..

Is a 3 a passing score for AP? Does the UNC system accept a 3? Is each UNC school (State, Carolina, UNCG,App, etc) doing something different? If so is there a comparison chart. I think that GCS should make it crystal clear what courses are accepted by what schools.

We are seeing the negative effect that is occuring with the flat line of our AL students in measurable growth. We put the most time/money/emphasis on pulling up the lowest students, sometimes challenging the middle and hoping the high will be assistant teachers in many ways. This might not be happening in HS as much as middle, I don't have a personal reference to draw on. I would never say that the lowest students don't need additional help, but there has to be a balance.
In my son's strong AL Lang Arts there are 35 students with one teacher, that same teacher has 17 students in her inclusion class with an additional teacher... 35 to 1; or 17 to 2...where is the equity in that? is it helping? One would hope, but several of those students never do the work, homework, etc. They are bidding their time until they can drop out of school. Is this right or fair to those that have the ability to do more?

The same can be said for AP/honors.. if we pad the class with those that can't and those that won't.. what happens to those that can?
I have heard that many AP exams are 25% of more of the grade... so how do people make A or B on their report card if they dont pass the exam, and again what level are we teaching to?
Is Dudley teaching to the same standard as Western? It seems obvious that the students are learning as much.. of course neither are the Central, Grimsley, NW or any other school..

Is a 3 a passing score for AP? Does the UNC system accept a 3? Is each UNC school (State, Carolina, UNCG,App, etc) doing something different? If so is there a comparison chart. I think that GCS should make it crystal clear what courses are accepted by what schools.

Bobbi,

I don't disagree with anything you said. Thanks for clarifying. As long is access is provided for the poor. I do think if kids are going to take AP courses they should be required to take the AP test. If they aren't interested in taking the test then they shouldn't take the course. Students should be encouraged but not forced. I know that kids sometimes confuse encouragement with a demand. For instance a parent /teacher could say I really think you should take AP classes and the child will tell everyone my parent / teacher are making me take this class / test. I'm not saying your daughter is untruthful but I am saying that experience with kids and adults has taught me that wht is said is not always what is heard. I would want some feedback from Dr. Grier before I would rush to judgement based on what a student said. Also many of the posters here just want to rip our schools apart to some how hurt Dr. Grier so their judgements are always negative. They profess to be conservatives but want the BOE to build them a bigger school so they don't have to go to a school with plenty of room because they don't want to go to school with poor black children. They use their information inconsistently to be negative and support their selfish agenda as opposed to what's best for all children.

The Real Truth

Sandy Allen-

How is it NHP's fault that Blairwood has been redistricted to Central from Andrews? Why didn't you fight Dot to keep those kids there? Didn't you hear the NHP folks telling you that she wasn't trying to help Andrews -- it's always about Central! More NHP kids went to Central than Andrews when Map C3* was adopted.

Isn't it Grier's fault if Andrews doesn't have an Assistant Principal? Didn't he promise Andrews when he optionally took away their Title I money that their school wouldn't lose any money due to Equity Plus funds?

Chin up! Your school made the Newsweek list of the Country's 100 Best Schools! That is amazing progress for a school that remains on Judge Mannings watchlist and is in jeopardy of being closed down!! Thanks for putting your heart and soul into it.

I think the speaker at tonights board meeting thought she was speaking "The Real Truth"

HEHEHEHE!

The NorthWest Observer is reporting (in Questions, p5 May 25-31) that Ms. Haley Henderson (GCS Spokesperson) responded to a request for information about the passing rate for Northwest on AP classes.

'Last year 593 NWHS students took AP exams. Out of 1,021 AP exams taken by them, 636 (or 62 percent) received what is a passing score of 3 or above (AP exams are scored on a 5-point scale).

Countywide, Henderson says 8,102 AP exams were taken by 4,194 students in Guilford County Schools. Out of the total exams taken, 3,443 (42.5%) earned a passing grade.'

Presumably, this data is available for all schools?

The news and record link reports 36.4 of seniors passing at Northwest. Since NW observer reported 62% for the whole school in my mind one of these numbers has to be correct.

Ermmmmmmm, I mean incorrect. Its late.

Re: missing comments

I went through about 1,000 comments that had been shuffled into a "junk" folder. The vast majority were truly junk - massive spam about everything from Madonna adopting to some stuff I'd rather not mention.

Buried in that folder were the comments "under review" that several of you had tried to post. I moved them to the proper folder so they should have appeared. I checked the last few strands and new comments did appear. However, I'm not sure if I caught all of them. I ran out of steam after reading 1,000 copies of Madonna adopting, etc. at midnight. I'll go through some more on Friday and see if I find anymore from the past week or so. That 1,000 only took me through part of May 15.

In the future, if you get that message about your comment being reviewed, either call or e-mail us and we'll retrieve it so it posts.

Thanks for your patience. Sorry about our testy technology. Hopefully, the growing pains will stop soon.

RT

Loved your speech at the school board meeting tonight (NOT!)

Jennifer,

can you clarify the discrepancy between the NW Observer and the N & R's numbers for NW. Thank you.

maybe the discrepancy is that the NWObserver has all students taking classes and the list only has seniors. Many of you say that more AP are taken as jrs. to make sure that it is on their record for for college apps.

Ark,

Great last post. I agree with what you have said especially about the gap. It seems like one other solution in GCS is to spread out students of various levels at different schools, or in some cases have the families that are into academics run for private school because all of the constant turmoil of redistricting. Maybe that's part of the "big plan" to remove the top performers from our schools to private school to lower the gap?? Also with situations like Early College (and I do think Early College is an excellent program)but it takes the cream from the top of the high schools, thus removing that factor and superficially lowering the gap at individual high schools.

Deb, EXCELLENT points as usual. We should be putting more efforts and money into our top performers, not less. These are our future doctors, lawyers and leaders. In other countries the emphasis is put on the top performers. Dr. Z, the stat man, had mentioned that we need to put more efforts into the top students. This is one reason why many countries are passing us up when it comes to say mathmatics and producing more engineers, for example.

Also agree to about the smarter kids being asked to teach the others. It starts as early as elementary school. Smarter kids are placed next to slower learners to help them. Groups situations include various levels to pull the lower kids up. Cooperative Learning is the buzz word now. There are some positive points to this. But I have been in situations where a TA (in first grade) expected me to have 23 children wait for one student to catch up with the rest of the class on a worksheet assignment. 23 were sitting there bored. You can't hold back 23 for the sake of 1. The 1 had the personal assistance of the TA. We have many parents who tutor the slower children and that is much needed, but should the very bright kids who always finish first spend their time teaching the others or given advanced work so they can advance at their own personal need level?

Some students in AP classes in high school tutor other students once the AP tests have been taken.

I totally agree with your point about doing more for the high achievers. So many efforts are put into those who are just biding their time and don't care. By high school the mold is set. The education process has to start at a younger age. If we just pass out a diploma to some kids who have no knowledge, job or life skills, what favor have we done them.

On what colleges count 3s, 4s, or 5s on APs I think that would be a very timely and almost impossible task to ask of GCS. The reason being is the criteria could change yearly with each college and many of our graduates go to many differnt schools out of state. Each college website lists how they count AP courses. You can also find the links for this information on the College Foundation (or one of those similar catch all websites for college information.) I would say look at up each college your child is considering, weigh all the benefits of the college - how they count AP classes, courses offered, the cost, etc. apply to several then go for the scholarships.

...we had freshman taking AP courses...........

This was one of our arguments for not separating our freshman from our juniors and seniors. It was also part of the reason the teachers were torn between two campuses after the fire

Not to try to outdo NumbersGame but, based on the NWO report and GCS data:

Northwest students were 10.6% of GCS High School students (2,279 / 21,494).

Northwest students were 14.1% of all AP test takers (593 / 4,194).

Northwest students took 12.6% of all AP tests taken (1,021 / 8,102).

Northwest students passed 18.5% of all AP tests passed (636 /3,443).

Which means Northwestern passed 62.29% of the AP tests they took.

The dirty secret is that many colleges admit students before the
APs are scored, presuming their grades in these courses reflect retention and understanding. But aren't the tests meant to be the "real" standard for assessing this? If so, it appears either individual teachers of these courses (and a majority of them) are not covering the same material being tested, or students really aren't understanding the content; in the latter case, then, their grades must be inflated.

And does a "3" correspond to a "C" grade, passing with something like 75% adequacy? In real college courses, the bell curve usually peaks near that or slightly higher. If the high school students taking these AP classes and tests were truly performing and learning at a college level, shouldn't we expect similar results?

Since the highest percentage of passing tests at any one school hovers around 65%, then 35% or so of the tests are earning the equivalent 1 and 2 on the AP. What really is odd, then, is whether we should think of an overall 65% as a "D" rate or not. Have we decided it is a "C", because the "best schools" have posted this rate? Isn't it possible the majority of students in these courses are simply not capable yet of college-level mental work? That doesn't mean they can't compile data or ape lectures.
It means they can't do higher-level abstraction and hold competing ideas in abeyance while critically analyzing several lines of thought.

But then again, how many Americans can do that?

Is Northern going to offer only AP level classes? ("Mr. Grier presents a great oppurtuninty for these kids wanting to offer nothing but Advanced Placement courses" http://nwobserver.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=277&forum_id=60).

If so, wouldn't it automatically be ranked highest on the list?

Northern will offer honors and AP-- and what Mr. Yeager calls pre-honors, to help those on the bottom level with higher needs. There thought process is that CP Enlish is not the course for students that want to go to college-- they need more rigor. I am waiting to see how that grand thought works in reality. There are many that will not go to college and it might be too rigerous and not the path that they chose. This is mostly for english.

looks like I am spelling challenged today. Typing too fast-- That should read that Their thought process in that English

Looks like another a Andrews own has come around:

The High Point Enterprise reports that the once might T.W. Andrews High School marching band may lose it?s funding due to declining enrollment.

This is just another tragic blow dealt to Andrews High School. I graduated from Andrews in 1988. During my time there, Andrews won the NATIONAL debate championship, the conference championship in football eight years in a row (I wasn?t there for all 8), made it to the state football finals once, semi-finals twice, was ranked in the top 25 high school football teams in the nation by USA Today, won the Wachovia Cup every year, had a Morehead Scholar, a state championship in soccer, won the state and district debate championships every year, and was just a great high school.

Since that time, the school board has played around with its social experimentation and driven this once great high school way into the ground. I cannot tell you how sad it makes me feel that they ruined my old high school. Back in the day, the TWA marching band was the best band in the area. They were always the last act in the High Point parade because the crowd would follow them down the street, and if they weren?t last, whoever was behind them (even Santa Claus) would get the shaft. They had a great band director in John Burns Sr. during those times.

People don?t want to go to Andrews because the school board has turned it into a garbage dump of failure. Some of the reasons I believe are clear and have a lot to do with certain members of the school board being graduates of High Point Central and trying to protect that school from demographic changes at all costs- even if it means that Andrews was destroyed as the academic and sports powerhouse that it used to be.

It?s reputation has taken an absolute beating in the past 15 years and only those of us who were there in the golden era know or remember what a great place it truly was.

Pit Reporter,

Since your time what has happened is a new generation of parents have grown up. They are comopletely spoiled, they don't know the meaning of sacrafice and more entitled and completely lack empathy for others. They think they can read the Bible but ignore its teachings. Basiclly they are shelfish hollow people. Their parents had leaders like John F. Kennedy that said things like "Ask not what your Country can do for you but what can you do for your Country." This generation of parents elected Bush who said, "The question is, who ought to make that decision? The Congress or the commanders? And as you know, my position is clear -- I'm a commander guy." Well enough about that idiot. The real problem is that middle class families are all focussed on greed and what is in it for them. (By the way household income is declining for middleclass families Nationwide due to National economic policies by the afrementioned idiot) They have no sense of duty. No sense of responsibilty to the larger community. They define their community by income and social status. Its truly sad. Don't blame Dr Grier and The BOE, blame this neo-conservative (not really conservative) culture motivated by bling! Also racism plays a part as well, irrational fear of people from a different culture. Its driven many entitled parents to private schools which don't offer even a comparable level of accademic opportunity but offer a homogenious student body and a false sense of security. Blame it on "Neighborhood schools" another name for segregated schools. Blame it on screwed up values.

The Real Truth

Re the descrepancy in reported passing rates:

Both numbers could be correct. It is possible for 60+% of the TESTS to be passed but to only have about 1/3 of the students passing ANY TESTS.

The difference is that some students take multiple tests. Chances are that the better students take multiple tests. If the failures are concentrated among students who only took one or two tests while the passes are concentrated among students who took more tests, you would get the kind of breakdown described above.

A numerical example (today's word problem) might help.

Consider three AP students: Kwame, Lou and Marita. Kwame takes 3 tests and passes them all. Lou and Marita each take one test and fail them.

This hypothetical group of students passed 60% of the tests that were offered, but only 1/3 of them passed at least test.

It's offensive to call me a shrimp.

TRT

For the longest time I have read your comments, shrugged, then moved on. But this last rant demands a response. While I appreciate your obvious passion, my suggestion would be to stop and think about what you are saying before wielding such a broad brush on any subject or group of people. What you did in this posting was stereotyping of the first order, which I assume you would take great offense at if it were aimed at a group you identify with.

I would think that someone clearly as smart and involved as you are would know that there is a major difference between all, most, many, some, a few and a couple. Sweeping generalizations, while satisfying to the person making them, most often oversimplify incredibly complex problems, and turn otherwise important discussions into a series of empty sound bites.

Something to ponder. Parents tend to push for what they perceive to be the the best for THEIR children first, then everyone else's children--it's human nature. If the situation involves education and a limit amount of resources, altruism takes a hike. Further, when parents think a situation, such as education resources and quality, has become an us vs. them situation, it seems at least logical if not fair or right that they will put us--their children--first. It may be unfair or inequitable, but parents with more financial or political clout have the most avenues to pursue to do what they think is best for their children. It is a logical fallacy to think that what seems good for all children will be seen as good for each individual child by their respective parents.

When people can choose or vote with their feet they will . . . and your or my distrust or hatred of their motives won't change it. Ranting won't help.

The Real Truth,

Spoken like the socialist that you are.

The Real Truth,

That was a nice picture of you at the school board meeting last night on the front page of the High Point Enterprise.

P.S. You didn't address what Pit reporter said about certain members of the school board turning Andrews into a garbage dump of failure to save Central. You have misplaced anger. It's Terry Grier, and certain members of the board that have trashed your school, and all the while you praise Terry Grier. And you know it.

RT, I sometimes see the odd flash of decent debate in your posts but your constant name calling and trashing of others really bothers me.
When are you going to get it that you cant force people to do what you want them to do?

Please leave it alone and lets debate "education" in Guilford County.

RealTruth,

For once I can appreciate your POV. However, you continue to make it hard with the name-calling.

I agree that it is society and the acceptance of so many ills that taint and take over our children, their wants, needs, and futures. I agree, but you should take a different approach in getting your message across.

You should read some of Dale Carnegie.

Jim,

Most students who plan to go to a top college start taking AP classes in sophomore year. By the end of their junior year they may have 7 or more under their belts. The scores are in. Colleges look at these. But more so, colleges (and scholarship committees) look at the rigorous academics the a student has taken, along with SAT scores, community involvement, leadership roles, etc. If you want to get into the top colleges, it's very competitive and you need AP courses on your resume. AP classes are here to stay.

I can tell you at SWH the grades are not inflated. I can't speak for other schools. I have seen some top students make only Cs in AP courses. Then there are some very difficult tests like AP Chemistry where top students may only make a 2 or a 3. Some people feel that students not on block schedule (Grimsley and NWH, I believe) have an advantage when it comes to AP tests as the material is covered all year.

My daughter thought she did poorly last year on her AP Latin Vergil with a 3. She was thinking of scheduling a different AP test this year. Her Latin teacher told her she was the only one who passed the test so that made her feel better and she continued with AP Latin Literature. Some kids know material but test poorly especially in languages or math that they had the first semester only.

Perhaps the discrepancy in the different schools and the low numbers of students passing has to be with putting students in these classes who don't belong in an AP class to start with.

A lot of students who take a course the first semester on block forget some of what they have learned and do not take time to review or go to the tutoring sessions that are offered in April. Also once the seniors have been admitted into their colleges and have their scholarships (with AP top scores helping from sophomore and junior years) they really don't care if they pass the APs or not. They are focused on many other things by May of their senior year.

meant to say she was thinking of taking a different AP course (not test) other than Latin Lit.

I came across this information on NIMH's website, discussing studies of teenage brain development:

"... (A) wave of brain white matter development...flows from front to back (of the brain during maturation),... and postmortem studies have suggested that gray matter maturation flows in the opposite direction, with the frontal lobes not fully maturing until young adulthood. To confirm this in living humans, UCLA researchers compared MRI scans of young adults, 23-30, with those of teens, 12-16. (Sowell ER, Thompson PM, Holmes CJ, et al. In vivo evidence for post-adolescent brain maturation in frontal and striatal regions. Nature Neuroscience, 1999; 2(10): 859-61.)

They looked for signs of myelin, which would imply more mature, efficient connections, within gray matter. As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing and other "executive" functions. Parietal and temporal areas mediating spatial, sensory, auditory and language functions appeared largely mature in the teen brain."

From this and my own experience, I believe most true college-level courses, requiring high degrees of cognitive processing and "executive" functions, simply are beyond the abilities of sophomores and juniors in high schools and likely even most seniors. Many times they are beyond college freshman!

I suspect the real reason colleges accept AP credit is not because it represents real college-level learning (many of these students end up taking remedial classes when they struggle with the courses that proceed after they "skip over" intro courses). It is because the intent to work hard in these high school courses that pit them against their peers, rather than college students, shows they are ambitious and might apply themselves similarly at college.

It is sad to hear seniors don't take them as seriously after getting into a college. If I were an admissions officer, I'd pass along that information to their professors. It might even be that some students feel like the poor test-anxiety Japanese, that once they get into the great college, after passing killer tests, they can slack off right through college...as long as a job awaits them through social connections. That doesn't go for science majors assume. But business?

By the way, the same article on NIMH points out how quickly the neural pathways for learning languages closes: by age 12 it's about done for.

I have never seen a bunch of people who are so filled with anger and hatred for Dr. Grier that when our school systeme has good news to report they try to tear it down. I wonder if you would run over children in the street if they were between Dr Grier and your car.

Dr. Grier should be commended for raising the bar and encouraging children to be challenged. I simply can't explain many of the posters here except to say that they are negative and determined to see GCS fail so they can malign their nemesis, Dr Grier.

The Real Truth

Sandy, You have got it wrong again. I dont like many things TG does but I am really grateful that there are AP classes. Another good thing that he did was to push Algebra 1 into the middle schools. I dont think he has done anything for our disadvantaged kids though. Nada!

That is my choice.

Some thoughts

1)
MIT senior Christopher Suarez, 22. He says some AP courses prepared him for MIT but not all. "The focus is on the test and not necessarily on the fundamental knowledge of the material."

2)
Mathews has been criticized for not looking at how many students actually pass the AP/IB tests. Last year, he added a section called "equity and excellence" which shows the percentage of seniors at each school that passed at least one test.

(Note the one test could have been any time in
the students four years not necessarily this ranking term)

3) Terry ( his staff) had the data prepared for forwarding to Newsweek. Has anyone without a dog in the fight reviewed the raw data. I say this having seen other stats from the system. They do occasionally make, should we say errors.
4)
Now the Principal at Western says "yes we are the best school in the system". I leave it at that.

The arrogence is beyond me.

I was once told winners don't need stats.

From another string.

The teacher's union doesn't like Mission Possible because its a step in the right direction, paying teachers for merit as upossed to the socialist way they have been paid in the past (based on tenure). Mission Possible applyies business / economic common sense to teacher pay

Really. Where has this person beem.
Business often rewards perception not results
I give you Enron,Health South,Tyco,MCI

Socialist???
When do the teachers become commies

Really dedicated teachers require more than money to notivate them.

Who is to say what constiututes well qualified.

Striving/Achieving/ Excelling oops failing.

AP test ranking Neweek. All Perception.
We are allowing an ex Fincial reporter to set the education standard.

He is less qualified then I am.

Grier listens to him.

Jim,

Some students can handle the AP classes and some can't. It depends on a number of factors: I.Q., drive, how well they can focus, how much time they don't spend watching TV or playing video games, how well they manage their time.

I disagree that these high achievers slack off after college. These kids don't give up their some of their social time and sleep to be at the top of their class and then "slack off" when they get to college. Most have learned the rewards of hard work.

A friend of mine's son who was in the top group of his class at Page started NC State close to a sophomore. He is on the dean's list and one of the highest in his classes for engineering.

I think when parents are paying out big bucks for college or children know they must maintain their GPAs to keep their merit scholarships, they won't be slacking off.

I do feel many kids can't handle an AP class and shouldn't be in them, but for others they need a little push to raise the bar higher for themselves. I have been told that Honors classes are more what the classes were when we went to school. CP classes are "dummied down" and AP classes are intense. Ask any kids in the AP English or AP World History classes at SWH. Much is expected and one must be able to think and analysize.

Regardless of how some feel about spending money on AP classes, in order to compete for today's top colleges, we need them in Guilford County. I would imagine you will see more of them offered.

As the Newsweek article stated this is just one indicator of a school's performance.

Jim,

If the neuro pathways close at age 12 for the ability to learn languages why are our students successful after 5 years of Latin or 4 years of French in high school? Why bother to teach advance language skills, writing and grammar? Why do students take other languages in college then? Why are we spending money for Hispanic immigrants to learn English? Are you saying they can't learn after age 12?

The article was written in 1999, one person's opinion and 8 years ago at that.

"It's sad to hear seniors don't take them seriously after getting into college"....

I didn't say they didn't take their AP CLASSES seriously. In fact, many of the students who get the A s in AP classes are naturally smart and have great memories - one reason they do so well on the APs even if they take the test the second semester of block and had the class first semester.

I said many seniors are not as focused in May because of upcoming graduation and other related events. They don't care as much if they pass the APs or not just so their school can be in Newsweek. (I was explaining one reason why some seniors may not test well in senior year.) At that point in their hs careers, that isn't their priority. Their minds have moved onto college and they are focused on how to make it there for their futures. Certain colleges still ask for a final grade report even after the student has submitted a mid year report to the college in Jan.

There are many students who also still care to pass the test with at least a 3 because of the "Cool to Be Smart" incentives program that follows the summer of senior year. This is a great, fun incentive for high achievers.

I'll admit, since I did not read the original source for the NIMH report, I am not sure exactly what the claim about neural pathwyas for acquiring foreign language skills meant. I conjecture it might mean that it becomes much harder to learn new languages, because one would need to manufacture alternate routes for processing the aural information. Every study, including MRI and teachers' own experential work, shows the younger one is, the faster and more fluently one picks up new languages. That appears now as established fact. Otherwise, why do so many people (including high performers in their native language) have such a hard time learning them later in life?

I thank you for clarifying what the seniors you spoke of were not caring about. It does raise the issue of student priorities and the true worth of the tests, if many (or some, or most?) seniors may well be blowing them off (or are you simply saying they are too stressed to do well on them?)

Why should AP tests be given at all, if they only serve to indicate that student attended the course, even though the test grades invariably on average do not match the class grade? There has been much data released about North Carolina's required state tests and how embarassingly low the standards for "passing" are. Maybe the polticians can help us out and get the AP tests dumbed down, too.

Morgan,

I saw your name in today's N&R as Morgan Josey Glover. Are congratulations in order?

The AP tests are given by the college Board. You can't water them down Jim.
Its the same exam given on the same day at the same time all over the country.
Read about them here.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/student/testing/ap/AP-bulletin.pdf

More info here too.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/about.html

From "Frequently Asked Questions About NEWSWEEK’s Best American High Schools" By Jay Mathews

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7760504/site/newsweek/

"So I rank to get attention, nothing more, in hopes people will then argue about the list and in the process think about the issues it raises."

To help answer your questions about the AP pass rate: Dr. Grier mentioned at a recent budget meeting that 43 percent of the 8,133 students who took AP exams in 2006 earned a 3 or higher. He said this in the meeting and I have not had time yet to verify by requesting the data independently.

To help answer your questions about the AP pass rate: Dr. Grier mentioned at a recent budget meeting that 43 percent of the 8,133 students who took AP exams in 2006 earned a 3 or higher. He said this in the meeting and I have not had time yet to verify by requesting the data independently.

Yes, quest. Congratulations are in order. I just got married this month. So pardon the incongruency for the time being in how you see my name written in various formats.

To help answer your questions about the AP pass rate: Dr. Grier mentioned at a recent budget meeting that 43 percent of the 8,133 students who took AP exams in 2006 earned a 3 or higher.

That means 57% failed the tests. This is overall.

Some schools had over 90% fail

Putting kids in it who are not ready/qualified etc is criminal. It frustrates them more. Oh I forgot
it makes them reach so is benificial.

Well perhaps we should have the special needs kids also take the courses and the tests. You of course
realize that would advance us in the rankings and obviously they would benefit.

It's a shell game.

Jim,

A serious question: How do we know the test grades do not match the passing grades?

Morgan, do you have any stats on this - passing grades compared to 3 or higher on a test?

Also a 2 or higher does not necessarily mean a student did poorly in the class. I can give you my daughter as an example here. Atthe end of her junior year (July) she was one of only 24 students from several states to attend the Ciba High School Chemical Institute in Tarrytown, NY. She was the only student selected among many from North Carolina. It was a two week intense program (all expenses paid) that included studies in organic chemistry, polymer chemistry, working with liquird nitrogen. They were introduced to instrumentation techniques such as chromatography and spectroscopy, and studies issues in environmental regulations. Small groups designed their own company from creating a product to marketing. She was one of the top students in her AP Chemistry class. Come May, this was the only test she had made a 2 on of all her AP tests. Her explanation was it was very difficult. She has been offered future summer internships with Ciba. So you see, the test is only one measure.

I would imagine it's required so kids will get a feel as what to expect. Many teachers give a mock AP test and count it for 25% of the final grade. It all depends.

In my opinion, even if a student did not perform well on the test, the intensity of having to do research projects, reading and write papers will definitely help them know what to expect in college.

It's a shame that some of our high school students graduate with a diploma and still can't read, spell, speak or write proper grammar or do a simple math problem without a calculator. this indeed is an embarrassment.

Below from a recent article

"For a critic of this approach, one need look no further than the College Board itself, which designs and markets Advanced Placement courses and exams. On its website, it says that AP exams "should never be used as a sole measure for gauging educational excellence and equity," and calls media rankings that do so "problematic." Education experts are just as critical. Chester E. Finn Jr. of the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation compares Newsweek's system to judging people's health only by taking their temperature. "You'd be overlooking their blood pressure" and every other indicator of physical well-being, says Finn. Tom Loveless of the Brookings Institution is even more adamant: "Any ranking system worth anything at all must have at its core student learning. And this one does not."

"AP obsession had "unwittingly created an out-of-control monster" and that "image-conscious public school officials [are] so intimidated that they're putting as many kids as possible--and I am not talking about average kids who are willing to do the work--into AP courses."

"The Newsweek list is perhaps best understood as a PR stunt."

Note the word "image-conscious" Who might that be.

More food for thought.

If any school in the rankings had rounded up large
groups of drunks to simply sit through the courses
and take the exams their rankings would improve.

"the rating is not meant to measure the overall quality of the school" as stated above from someone's post referring to the Newsweek article

As we all know it's only one ranking system and most of us how it works and realize what the results actually mean. (Unfortunately most of the public does not.)

This is not to say that for students who need to be challenged and can handle AP courses, that they aren't a necessary academic offering. Regardless they are here to stay.

If it weren't for AP classes my child would have been in private school.

one thing that does bother me about AP and other classes that do not have a full load of near 20-25 students is the fact that a small attendance in one class means a crowded class in others. Teachers are aloted for 25 to 1 in HS. If an AP class has 15 then another class as 35 to balance. This can be true of other classes as well. I realize that we need to offer AP and other career courses, but there are over 400 classes offered in the HS handbook. No school teaches that many and my guess is that there are quite a few courses that have less that 20 per class.
Where is the break even point? Do you offer a class with 12 interested? Is it 20? Everything costs money... do we offer something that only a few want and then have to cram in 30 plus to English because everyone has to take it.

Just a thought.

Hello everyone,

In regards to AP Exam scores versus class grade, I was told that at Northwest HS they look at this very closely. The exam grade should reflect the class grade. If a student makes an A in the class and can only muster a 2 on the exam, they see this as the class being watered down and the teacher would be reprimanded.

Diana,
I have heard that about NW also, but my guess is that Dudley (10% passing AP exams) look at it differently. I doubt that 90% of those kids fail the course.

I have heard Dr Grier say that the grade should reflect ability as does the exam, and that if there is a huge discepancy then that should be looked at.

The question is.. do they look at it? How do they change it? Are we fooling the kids at Dudley and other schools that they are doing well by giving good grades and they really aren't mastering the material.

I have heard the same thing about SW also. It is my understanding that the class test scores should be a reflection of the grades in the class.

Personally, I don't think that if a student makes a B in the class and a 2 on the test it means that the class is watered down at all.
I have had 2 children who have taken many AP classes. The teachers in almost all of them have been exceptional, taught at a high level, had high expectations and pushed hard to get the best out of their students.

My kids have made anywhere from an A to a C in each class but generally speaking, regardless of class grade have made a 2 or 3 on the AP exams. In our family, we put importance on the class and doing well in the class. However, when it comes to taking the exams (because they are usually a semester later), we don't insist on heavy preparation because of the other things going on at the time......regular school work, athletics, church, community events, etc. It is not out priority for our children to have credit going in to college, but to have as much exposure as possible to test taking experiences.

As mentioned earlier, even among state schools the qualifications are so different as to what is accepted, that it simply is just not something we place much emphasis on. We figure our kids are going to college for 4 years anyway. Right or wrong...that's just what is right for our family.

In my opinion for a teacher to be judged on the performance of their students 6 months later is unfair to that teacher. It is not thier fault that my kids don't come to the reviews and that we don't place value on making a 4 on the AP exam.

I am very thankful for AP classes as they have caused my kids to be stretched, but just am not a firm believer that AP exams measure mastery of the material.

You have an excellent point. We need to take in consideration that some schools AP classes are year round. Our school is on a block schedule which is not an ideal situation for an AP class. If you take the class in the fall, you have to wait until May to take the exam.

If you take the class in the spring , you miss almost
4 weeks of instruction time. The AP exams are always given weeks before our semester ends.

I believe starting next year that all AP classes will be year long, for the very reason that you are stating. Longer time to cover material, review and take the test. Now with block some take class the first semester/test later and the ones that take the second semester have about 2 weeks cut short since the test is Mid-May.. that is generally about 18-20 hours of class time they lose in that one semester verses 10 or so for the year long classes.

Deborah,

Will ALL high schools have year-round AP classes starting next year?

That's what I understood Dr. Grier to say, but don't hold me to it. Those BOE get long and my mind gets befuddled about 10 or so after hours of nothing getting done.
I can't find anything on GCS about it, and since NW is already year long, I don't have any other references.

At some schools, certain AP classes are "paired" so that students take AP English 11 & AP Am Hist or Eng 12 & Mod European Hist together. Each class uses up half a block so the students change class in the middle of a block, usually 2nd block, which is scheduled to be a few minutes longer to accommodate these students. The only drawback is what to do with students who only want to take one of the paired AP classes? There are no other 1/2 period classes offered, so they end up having to take both whether they really want to or not.

AP classes were obviously designed to be year-round. I wish the college board could somehow mandate that they be taught as a year-round class.

I truly believe the block schedule is hurting students taking AP classes.

David Colin,

Enron, Health South, Tyco were cultures of fraud and greed. There is no comparison between fraudulent company management,greedy credit analysts and lax government regulatoy agencies and Mission Possible. In addition, the heads of those corporations were all brought on trial and the employees all lost their jobs. Just how did they get rewarded. Credit analysts lost their jobs. Everybody lost. Bad analogy. What do you know about business... nothing!

Mission Possible is Good.

The Real Truth

TRT why are you mad at me?
I'm not mad at you.

I have worked with people erom all over the world

I do teach math to kids ( GTCC developmental)

I do have an engineering degree from a highly recognized school.

I look into things before I spout off.

I have a reasonable understanding of statistics

I have caught the system in lies.

I do make mistakes.

I do sign my real name to statements
That should be worth something

That should be worth something

David,

Haven't you learned by now? TRT is mad at everyone who disgrees with anything that GCS or Terry Grier is doing. I have not seen you personally attack her.

The key word is "public" education. We, the public, should be able to openly discuss the truth of what goes on in our "public" schools.

David, ignore TRT, the parallels with Enron, Healthsouth, etc. are most definitely there. It's in the continued financial mismanagement exhibited by Dr. Grier and his immediate staff. To top it all he has managed to always have 6 votes in order to keep his job.

How else do you explain millions upon millions wasted on failed programs, mismanaged, overbudget building projects, and missed grant applications. Not to mention the global performance of educational product that this "Company" offers to the consumers of Guilford County.

Once again, no new bonds while this same administrative staff and 6 votes in support of Grier are around. As a 30 year stockholder of Guilford County I really do not believe that these proposed bonds are a wise investment under current conditions.

Deb,

Excellent points on class sizes in high school, same for middle school and elementary school for that matter. We have been saying for years to use the extra seats at Andrews for smaller classrooms. I believe I have heard Dr. Grier say 15 to 1 is what most educators believe is an ideal size. This class size is offered in some grade levels at Title I elementary schools.

The problem that happens with AP classes is if one school offers them, the others have to in order to give the opportunity to all students. It would be nice to have at least 15 in each (actually English and some others are usually packed; not the same for perhaps Latin; or the higher Physics AP class.)

Someone mentioned about all the classes being offered in high school catalogs. Of course, there aren't enough teachers to teach all these "classes". After the HP "Choice" Plan when SWH was promoted as a School of the Arts (another long story) there were six pages of arts classes (if I'm not mistaken). We heard a student speak to this effect at a parents seminar in HP a few years ago. We were told that the classes are listed but if not enough students apply for the class, they aren't offered. Some teachers told us at the time that they were to make up classes that sounded interesting and given very short notice for same. Hopefully, all these classes for "the arts" are not listed now that SW is a "traditional" high school.

Diane, you must be referring to the final exam at the end of the AP class because the AP tests aren't given until May. The scores are only mailed out in July so teachers have no idea how the students would do on the tests. I totally agree with Kay's points on this one. Many of the AP teachers give a mock AP exam, score it and curve it. Others give projects for a final grade.

Most of the top colleges expect students to take AP classes because it shows they challenge themselves. I had to call the head of the language department at Wake Forest today for some information my daughter needed to fill out on a survey. We were trying to figure out what level of Latin class to put down as a tentative course. He informed me that 3s on AP Latin exams were very good. That the school uses theses scores for placement, along with number of years a language is taken and the GPA. Wake offers a placement exam on line later in the year. He was telling me that many colleges only except 4s or 5s (Wake and Duke, for example) but they use the 3s for placement so a student would not start out taking Elementary College Latin.

I do know that State accepts 3s. As mentioned previously, every college is different.

The seniors have to wait until July when their AP scores are in so they know which college course they receive credit for and what level to take. For instance if you receive a 4 on AP Latin Vergil, the language requirement is met.

Regardless, as Kay mentioned, kids are going for at least 4 years anyway, and many longer than that for gradudate school. This AP high scores allows them to take some more advanced course. The primary benefit of AP courses is that they challenge you.

CP classes short for "College Prep" in no way prepare a student for a top college.

meant to say many colleges "accept" 4 and 5s (please excuse other typos - getting kind of late)

My comments concerning Enron,Health South, Mci etc. was that they were able with smoke
and mirrors to give the perception of success.
In the end it all crumbled.

Lots of kids taking classes they cannot understand will get you good ratins and uneducated kids.

Math and Physical Sciences ( modeled with math ) are ruthlessly cumulative.

You can't grasp logrythms before you understand exponents.

You can't take Algebra two before you have mastered algebra one.

It's quite obvious. Thats why courses have prerequisites.

Besides. How does the instructor handle an advaced class with some unprepared kids that can't keep up.

Everyone looses.

"they see this as the class being watered down and the teacher would be reprimanded"....

Diana,

No, in other schools the teachers see it as too many kids who aren't smart enough, prepared enough or focused enough being pushed into AP classes. It is the teachers who are frustrated and complain. You cannot logically say these classes are watered down when colleges like Duke and Wake accept 4s and 5s for actual college credit. These are tough schools to get into.

It could be the fact that the students in AP can't handle these classes; that kids are on a block schedule and forget a lot by second semester if they don't review; and frankly, some kids just freeze on a test. It could be that the teacher taught the class quite well followed the guidelines but the test changed that year, had new and more difficult material on the test, or frankly the student wasn't feeling well the day he took the test, or the student didn't apply himself in the first place or take notes. There could be MANY factors that affect the actual test grade. There is no proof to say the teacher didn't teach the material. I hate that in GC many always want to blaim "the teacher". What about the student who just doesn't want to be there in the first place (AP, CP or whatever)? A 3 is passing and doesn't necessarily mean a "C" as some colleges do accept 3s. It's just a numbering system for placement.

As to David's question how does a teacher handle an AP class when students can't keep up? The answer is: like any other class. The students make Ds or fail. I know teachers who teach AP who are VERY frustrated when kids are pushed into their classes who can't keep up. Why should a student have to get an exemption note to not take a certain AP class? As you know some of these parents would never see the note or simply aren't there to care. When students are put in these upper level classes who don't belong there, it takes away time from the other students who are ready for AP and want to be there.

But like many of you have stated, this would hurt the Newsweek ratings.

One more thing....we are losing two excellent AP teachers this year at SW - our chemistry teacher to NC State, the another English teacher is "retiring" to teach piano.

Last year we had lost an AP English teacher to NW; we had another AP science teacher this year who was being recruited for NW but wished to stay at SW. He loves the school, the staff and students. This particular teacher had a lot of "A" students who simply did not apply themselves in class this year. We are glad he's staying.

As GCS continues to offere more AP classes, they have to work even harder to recruit qualified veteran teachers and offer their support to these teachers. We should not be taking our established veteran teachers from one school to furnish new high schools. What IS working needs to be left alone, in my opinion.

correction: I believe the science teacher was being recruited for the new Northern HS. If we take many of our AP teachers from existing schools to furnish to high schools, it only weakens the AP programs at the former schools.

That is one problem I do see with Mission Possible. As teachers leave to go to certain schools for their bonuses, who fills the void at the previous schools? And as Deborah had mentioned in the past, who's getting the "poor performing teachers" that were told to leave the MI schools? As one school might improve, it stands to reason that others will be lacking.

Morgan, Jennifer -

It seems that I remember Western moved to traditional schedule this year from a block schedule.

Is it perhaps the case that this change has increased the number of students passing the AP exams at that school?

numbersgame,

Western did move to traditional this year. But the Washington Po