News-Record.com

Thank you very much for the info. Interesting.
I'm not a regular blogger and I have to wonder why the tones are so vicious and poeple don't use their real names. Oh, and the missing tests are a big deal.

Welcome Cindy,
The thing that pops out to me on this info is that we are getting kids to take AP classes, but it is apparent that they are not capable of grasping concepts meant for college age kids. This could be a combination of age, maturity, teachers, taking 6 classes (traditional), more outside activities than college kids, etc.
Very few college students take 18 hrs credit, and they don't 'do' sports and clubs at the same rate as they do in HS.

It all adds up.

The IB kids take the AP test in 11 th grade even though they are taking IB classes, not AP. Sometimes this causes lower scores.

How do we like the commercial about AP classes. They don't say how its doing. I wish the kids could see how they were graded and how they could improve. This info is not available.

Cindy,

There are many reason people don't use their real names. Some are teachers who value their jobs and don't want transferred. Others have received spam for posting their real names. Personally it doesn't matter to me. I read the information, sift through the b.s. and draw my own conclusions.

If you read other blogs in the blogsphere no one puts their real names and how do you know someone isn't just saying they are someone else.

Regarding the AP commercials....they are part of an expensive PR campaign paid for by Actions Greensboro to promote the area to outside businesses. Those of us who follow the school information and stats on a regular basis know what's happening.

I do agree it would be great to have some stats comparing the number of children who take APs to their grades and their test scores.

Welcome to the CB.

Cindy,

I don't use my real name because I don't think its safe. School Board members have had their cars and property vandalized over redistricting. Some of these people have even expressed violence and expressed hope for death of BOE members. All because they don't want their entitled children to have to go to school with low income black kids. They want segregated schools and resort to all kinds of things. Now that they have Garth's segregation plan inacted they continue to try to tear apart the reputation of our schools because of their hatered of Dr. Grier. They get excited and relish in bad news and when there is none they will make it up.

Thankfully, their are rational leaders in this community like Action Greensboro that promote our schools. Many / the majority of citizens in Guilford County respect Dr. Grier and the positive things going on in our schools.

I get attacked regularly for being positive or defending Dr. Grier. I cannot list all the names I've been called. Just last week when I wrote that there was violence in high schools 30 years ago it just went unreported a SW High poster responded, "Where did you go to High school, an all Black School?" Thats how these people think, no wonder they are so afraid and full of hatered. Just yesterday someone said I must have gone to either Andrews or Central because of typos (oh and I used one instead of won). They seem to think they are better than other people. They seem to think SW is better because its mostly white. Its really shameful that adults behave that way but what can one do but call them for what they are .... (not allowed to use that word).

Thank you for clarifying the name thing. I'm so sorry things have to be that way. Wonder how we manage to get along at Gradfest??? Or does anyone work that event? Back to the topic at hand. I really appreciated the data. It seems that the mean score shows that we aren't really passing this program. All under threes. What can we do to help the students increase their scores? We can't "teach to the test", like we even know what's on it. Even the AP classes have their disruptions. Some of my friends seem to think it boils down to dicipline. Ap kids are being sent out of class for not behaving and often don't finish their homework. Mine included in the latter. Have we gotten to the place where dicipline in the school has become a necessary evil. Where would you send them anyway?

Yes, it is sobering to see the mean scores and the bulk of much lower ones, too. Particularly telling is the highest mean belonging to 10th graders, overall. Does this indicate that 15 year-olds are doing the best at testing material meant to be college level? As my posts on the other thread discuss, the teenaged brain is simply not developed fully enough to expect true higher-level analytical/critical/synthetic ability. It is also possible the AP tests themselves are not even geared to truly test college-level thought process.

I believe it is likely all just a way to get money.

The Real "real" truth is that there is a VERY, VERY poor area of South High Point that is being bussed all the way over town to Southwest. Sandy, Real Truth and other Andrews parents just dont want these kids in their school. The poorest and most disadvantaged of the kids in this County were not allowed to walk to school. Now they have the choice. Why would anyone want to deny them the choice to walk to school, to particpate in sports, get home if they are sick, etc, etc, etc.

Just who are the "real" bad people here?

“This was the best year we’ve had in four years. We were making progress ... now the pendulum is swinging back in the opposite direction,” parent XXXXX XXXX said, alluding to a new choice plan that will allow some redistricted fami­lies to attend a school closer to home".

The above excerpt from a local newspaper says it all. The "pendulum" here is the disadvantaged kids that can walk to Andrews and Welborn but are not wanted there. Next year they can choose to go to Southwest or walk to Welborn. Why would any person who is "supposed" to be a good person deny these kids the choice?

Who are the bad people here?

RT (aka Sandy, Emma, VA, JA, or BS)

It seems like it is you and your friends who are filled with HATRED not "hatered" (unless you just don't like the Native Americans either along with blacks at Welborn and Andrews) As stated above, these disadvantaged kids now have a real choice to walk to their neighborhood school or be bussed to far away where they are disengaged in social activites, sports. You are afraid of the Real Choice Plan (RCP) because it let's these children and parents make their own choice and not have some politicians and stat makers trying to make our schools just look "average" by hiding these kids in the mix.

Cindy, we all get along great at gradfest, contrary to what RT would have you believe. Gradfest is a controlled environment and doesn't put up with the crap our teachers have to put up with. YES, lack of discipline and students following the rules is a major problem in our schools. It's covered up for the "image". That wouldn't look too nice on commercials trying to bring money to the area. If we were actually great instead of trying to look great (i.e., SAT scores, AP scores, discipline in school, EOGs) why the heck would a private political entity have to spent thousands of dollars to advertise for PUBLIC schools? Since when do you ever see any other school systems advertise for PUBLIC schools? Private schools advertise when they are trying to sell their institution. Why in the world would PUBLIC schools have to advertise? Thing about it. I had a visiting friend say, Why do you advertise your schools? They must be really bad if you have to beg people to go to a public school."

It is RT and her friends who shot themselves in the foot during their speeches in the past redistricting efforts. They were very clear that they did not want to go to school with certain kids (especially a few moms who mentioned conditions at Welborn.) They wanted to send who they didn't want at their schools to SW schools so everyone would be "equal" instead of addressing the problems with the School Board.

Cindy, you ask why there is hostility? If you would have survived the events leading up to Black Tuesday (the night of the vote for the High Point "Choice" (aka Chance or Lottery Plan) and witnessed some of the Andrews parents laughing at 8th grade children while they were crying and upset about losing their childhood friends, you would understand. If you had to move but couldn't sell your house because you were being forced to bus your child miles across town away from her friends, you would understand. If you were from a SW school, the only school that was being asked to make this sacrifice, you would understand. These first 8th graders who survived the HP "Choice" Plan can now drive, help in elections and many of them vote. You see why Garth won. By 2008 many for of these past middle schoolers can vote. Things will only continue to get better on the school board. These children and their families will NEVER FORGET what was done to them. You had to live it to understand it.

Jim,

If the teenage brain were not geared to do AP classes, why would they be offered across the country? Why would some of these kids across the country pass with 4s and 5s? Why would colleges accepts 4s, 5s and some even 3s for credit?

The problem isn't in the teenage brain. The problem is that the average teen of today with all the distractions they have to deal with - sports, social, peer pressure, drugs, playing around on the Internet, etc. aren't focused nor have the discipline or desire to do well. Many of the children today have not had to work hard in their past to obtain a goal (whether it be material or self-fulfilling) so they don't realize what it takes to pass an AP course. They aren't willing to put the time in. Some just don't have the intelligence level. Many just don't appreciate the wonderful gift of an education.

As mentioned before, many kids beyond the teenage brain years, flunk out of college too.

I believe the problem is putting students in AP courses who don't belong there in the first place. For the others who do belong, they should not be denied this opportunity which meets their needs and helps with their future college careers.

We need to put our efforts into helping our achievers. These are our future doctors, lawyers and leaders, not the students we continually pass through the grades who disrupt other students and don't want to be in school anyway. Most of these students end up dropping out. It's great if we can save them, but by high school, for many it's too late. We should put our efforts and money into children who have proven they want to succeed. These are the children who will shape the future of our country.

"where would you send them anyway" Cindy

You would send them out of the regular classroom environment where they can't ruin the education of students who want to learn. You would provide smaller classrooms and specialty teachers and counselors to deal with these students. You would provide a tough love alternative education facility. You would not put up with pushing, shoving, spittling, kicking, threatening other students and teachers, selling of drugs or disobeying of rules that should be enforced for all students in order for people to be able to function in a polite society. You should help these students realize what is expected of them in the real adult world when it comes to finding a job.

There is over $500,000 in Dr. Grier's budget to help with suspended children. I worry about this since we don't know anything about the outcome of the $25,000 spent this year. Did it help? Are those kids back in school following the rules? Are their grades better?

Alot of the problems are based around discipline. Teachers are scared of the students,they don't want to confront them. I haven't seen it at our school, but have heard the horror stories from other parents and teachers.

We are pushing our kids to stay in school but many don't want to be there, so they act out, cause disruptions etc. I say, let them leave if that is what they want. I do know that we will be supporting them, through one of the government branches, be it welfare or jailfare, but at least the kids left in school can get an education, hopefully make enough money to pay the taxes to help support their drop out fellow students. At this rate, very few are getting the education that they deserve.

We are spiralling downward rather quickly.

Hi Morgan, thanks for the AP data. I thought I had read that you were getting data for the previous two years as well? I would appreciate seeing that too.
Thanks

My 8th grader came home yesterday with the news that she passed her EOG's for math and English.
Great.
All the kids that did not pass were called into the cafeteria and were told that they will take the test again. I they dont pass they will have to go to summer school.
My question is if they pass the test the second time what is recored in overall results?

The first test results count for the school, but if a child passes the second time, it counts for them... not the school. And here is some intersting info. If a child goes to one of the alternative schools (Crossroads) they still count for the parent school, even if they weren't at that school the entire year. Remember one child in one subgroup can sink the ship.

I really agree with the above poster regarding those poor kids in SOuth High Point. I know this area very well. Why doesnt this RT person want to let them go his school? They, our counties most needy, need to be close to school.

Cindy,
Welcome to the Chalkboard. We appreciate new visitors and perspectives. To answer your question, you will find the level of engagement and discussion at each N&R blog different. However, both Jennifer (the other education reporter) and I hope the discussion here will improve over time as the sometimes petty attacks and barbs, even against public officials, does nothing to advance discussions about education. We try not to censor comments but do delete those that are profane or vulgar. I have found at education blogs at papers like the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the conversation is a bit more dynamic, even though there are plenty of anonymous posters there.

Concerning the AP scores, I do have two previous years data but I have not had time to put them in an electronic format. I hope to do that next week. An AP staff person with the school system did confirm that some seniors don't take the test seriously because of senioritis and already having post-grad plans in place.

Debora,

When you say you haven't seen the discipline problems at your school, count yourself very, very lucky.

Could this explain why Northwest High has 2500 students and still growing? I know that the Northern school will take a few hundred, but I imagine both of schools will continue to grow.

I think the parents at Northwest are very involved and set high behavior and academic expectations of their children.

It's too bad that this is not the norm in the rest of Guilford County. And since it isn't, it's past time for stronger discipline.

Morgan or Jennifer,

I read your story today about the lost AP tests at Central, but the schools' explanation for how the tests got lost wasn't clear to me and didn't make sense. Would you expand upon your story on this point.

So, Barbara Ann, do you dispute the double-blind, peer-reviewed work of hundreds of scientists as to the development of reasoning ability and especially complex mental activities for academic work?

I agree that some teenage brains...even thsoe of those too young to drive a car --- or even earlier, before puberty!!---may be geared for AP classes. AP classes are not college classes. No college I know of (except maybe some community colleges) teach "AP" classes.

The higher-level mind-work required for solid college writing and thinking are described in Bloom's taxonomy (a famed teaching tool used for years), where synthetic application of knowledge far exceeds the simple world of rote memorization and collating of factoids which pass for school "research" nowadays. I do agree with you that there are plenty of immature college-aged brains. Research shows males, particularly, do not fully develop frontal lobe capacity until well into their twenties.
But if you think 15 year-olds are capabale of passing, say, a demanding freshman college level history of philosophy course (with papers required demonstrating cogent debate and discussion of the development of logic or the meaning of existentialism), or a wide-ranging art history course covering everything from the reasons behind the rise and fall of styles in Old, Middle and New Kingdom Egypt (yup, the styles are different) to the science of optics explored by the Impressionists...well, I think you are dead wrong. They would fail. Many 18 year -olds, as you say, have a hard, hard time of it.

Colleges accept AP credits because there's a whole infrastructure of expectations that has been set up, but if you took a secret poll of the faculty at the colleges, they'd tell you a miniscule minority of students can perform at the level faculty would really like to see (analytic and critical abilities in English, for example), and that these tests are not properly designed to evaluate. Another not-so secret fact is a huge swath of AP students wind up getting tutoring and may even regress to take those intro classes anyway. Many more should, so their writing and thinking could be improved.

It is likely MOST colleges are run far above board, and there is no under the table hanky-panky. I have no reason to believe any college locally has any involvement in any untoward shenanigans.

That said, a lot of the whole messcurrently bubbling over nationwide stems from the huge sums of money changing hands. Admissions and financial aid officers at several colleges have been found to be taking kickbacks, for instance...and I'd hazard to say there's plenty of legal graft out there accruing to the entire SAT/ACT/AP/IB treadmill.

A friend of mine has just sold his house and is buying in NW area because of discipline issues at Southwest middle.

If SW continues like this I can only see NW growing more and more.

Yes, we have very strict guidlines at NWMS, can't speak for the HS. Our principals understand that a calm, safe environment is essential for learning.
The Northern HS will take about 300 from NW and 125 from NE the first year, and more each year, but with growth don't look for NWHS to ever be below 2000 (1600 capacity). The overcrowding causes lots of problems and luckily the behavior issues are fairly minor.

Northern MS has over 800 already enrolled (GCS prediction for 07 was 689) and they are looking trailers perhaps this year and most definitely next year.

I was on that construction team, and pointed out that they had better make room for trailers and everyone from Grier on down, so.. oh no, we won't need trailers.... hahahahahaha.

Now Northern Middle is opt out for Hairston (as is Eastern) if they don't make AYP's.

Morgan or Jennifer,

If UPS tried to deliver the tests and there was a malfunction, what about UPS' tracking system? Surely, their system had a record where the tests were. Their system is very advanced, and they seem to always know the location of packages. Have you asked UPS for a statement as to why it took a surveillance camera at the school to identify the attempted delivery of the packages? This sounds like an embarrassment to UPS as they are always touting their tracking system. Strange.

Un-named poster,

Give me a break. Don't even try to pretend that Garth's segregation plan benefits disadvantaged kids so they can walk to school. Most disadvanted kids are on a bus whether they are going to Andrews or Central or Sw. Very few live close enough to walk and what does geography have to do with equal education opportunities.... nothing. Your and Garth's posey's motivation is clearly segregation. Nothing less, you just want other people to deal with them and keep them away from your entitled middle class white kids. I guess Gradfest makes you feel like you aren't a segregationist because you hang around with some black kids for a few hours, ridiculas. You don't have a clue about the needs of poor kids and as long as you don't have to see them on a daily basis you can pretend they don't exist. Shameful!

Stormy,

Sure UPS has a tracking system The driver brings in packages on a hand truck. Often they accidently bring in pacakages from another location and realize it when they get in the building so they leave them on the hand truck and return to the truck with them. Its very possible that the driver accidently returned to the truck with the packages after they were scanned as delivered. Mistakes happen so what, get over it. You see conspiracy everywhere, get help!

The Real Truth

RT, Why dont you want those poor kids at your school?
You act like you are perfect but nobody is stupid here.

At the elementary school where I volunteer we have some kids from Parkview (opt outs). When one boy told me that he didnt want to go to Southwest he was really happy when I told him he could coose and go to Welborn. He specifically told me that he could walk there and after school he would walk and go and stay at his grandmothers.

Here is another story. One boy missed his bus time to Southwest Middle this year. He really wanted to go to school and he knew he could walk to Welborn. Upon arriving there he was threatened with trepassing and the school said they would call the police if he didnt leave.

He just wanted to go to his local school. Some selfish Andrews/ Welborn parents dont want this poor disadvantaged kid there. These people are the real bad people here.

To quote one a friend of RT's these kids are "not the right sort".
Or as another Andrews parent said the possiblity of these kids chosing to return is the "pendulum" swinging in the other direction.

Bad, bad, bad.

In South High Point people walk everywhere. There is no public transportation and many have no cars. Many of those kids can walk to Andrews and Welborn.

RT, answer the question. Why do 'YOU' not want those kids at your schools?

Un-named poster,

First an foremost, I don't have a school. I want balanced diversity in all of our schools so children have equal resources and opportunities.

Also, there is no public housing within walking distance to Andrews or Welborn. If you left your white world occassionally you would know that and stop making statements that aren't true or you will simply lie. Either way you are wrong.

The Real Truth

Thats not an answer.

WHy dont you want to let these kids have a choice Real Truth?

RT,

Its shameful that you wont let these kids go to their local school.

Shameful.

TRT,

If your kids were involved and you lived near Andrews, wouldn't you want to have the choice as to which school you sent them to? Would you send yours all the way to SW or would you let them attend school close to home?

A teacher told me that the EOGs taken the second time, or even after summer school and a child passes counts this year toward their ABC bonus.

Jennifer/Morgan can you verify this please.

RT,

What do you mean by "you don't have a school". You had mentioned in previous posts that you spend a lot of time at Andrews. What's up with that? Why don't you want disadvantaged children to go to their home school of Welborn or Andrews? Why don't you want them there? You have not answered this question honestly. Do you not want your children to go to school with black kids because they are too different from you?

And by the way "ridiculous" is not spelled "ridiculus".

No one mentioned "public housing". Posters have said they know cases where children who walked to Welborn and Andrews. I know of several children who used to be able to walk to Welborn and Andrews. Why do you assume they are all from public housing? What's wrong with that? Why don't you want your kids going to school with kids from public housing?

You keep contradicting yourself.

RT

why do you want "balanced diversity" over neighborhood schools? how does putting kids on a long bus ride help their education?

you have Mission Possible now. you have equity funding. these kids don't have equal resources, they have more at Welborn and Andrews because of the programs in place and private donations from organizations like the High Point Foundation. you have room at Andrews for smaller classes with less students to teacher ratios. you should look at this as "the class half full instead of half empty". this is a great advantage for these kids to have less kids in class.

what do you mean by same "opportunities"? how can a kid that may not have a strong, secure foundation at home, two parents or money for private tutors have the same opportunities as someone else no matter where they live or go to school? you aren't even giving these children the opportunities to participate in sports if you ship them out of your school. you are taking away from their study time by putting them on a long bus ride.

Stormy,

You can always track a UPS package. The explantation in the N & R made no sense to me. It sounds like the delay might have been in finding time to make up excuses.

RT, Look on the map. 99% of these poor kids live less than one mile from either Penn Griffin or Welborn.
Dont tell me that they cant walk there. You obviously dont know that area. People walk around all the time. It is VERY feasible for them and their parents to walk there, for them to participate in sports, band etc. Compare that to the eight miles to Southwest.
RT, put yourself in their position. Get yourself out of the selfish, uncharitable, greedy box that you live in.

Perhaps the reason that Real Truth now says that she doesn't have a school is because her daughter just graduated from Andrews? I suppose techincally that would be accurate.

Real Truth wants diversity in the schools so children will have equal resources and opportunities. So, does that mean that Terry Grier, as head administrator of the schools, doesn't provide equal resources and opportunities to schools, even though he has a budget of over $1/2 billion? Why is he discriminating against schools? I thought that Real Truth was Terry's big supporter. So which is it, Real Truth?

It still doesn't look as though a credible explanation has been provided about the "lost" tests at Central, other than UPS screwed-up. I guess the parents need to sue UPS as the second AP test is going to be much harder than the the lost ones. College Boards makes the retest harder to discourage schools from having to retest. The second AP History retest because of the schedule malfunction was much harder than the first one. Likely and unfairly, many students scored lower.

Real Truth, you need to get some some professional help...and retake Freshman 101, where they teach you how to spell.

Stormy, this was quite an ordeal to track down the missing UPS package, it took days, cameras, and the latest in satellite technology. Where I work the missing package always just shows up in the afternoon delivery.

Has anyone ever actually read this document/study?
School Board?
Reporters?
Citizens?
Terry

"Review of Human Resource
Operations in the
Guilford County Schools
Submitted to the
Guilford County Schools
By the
Council of the Great City Schools"

Just look at:

IV. FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

No wonder Harris left.
He will get the blame
He reported directly to Grier.

"Knew or should have known"

This school system is Marxs Brothers Movie

Another award posted on the school system WEB page

"We are pleased to report that SchoolMatch, the nation's largest school selection consulting firm, of Columbus, OH, included GCS among the school districts receiving its 2007 16th Annual “What Parents Want” Award. Only 16 percent of the nation's 15,571 public school districts (2,516) have been recognized for meeting the needs of families choosing schools. The 21 North Carolina districts receiving the award include"

nation's largest school selection consulting firm?
What kind of consulting?
Who knowes what this means?
Did we apply for the award? What did they charge us? Consulting firms usually get paid. No?

Like we received ISO 9001 certification.
Our consultant certified us.

Enough is enough.

Smoke and mirrors.

Through the bums out.

throw (sorry )

New York High school

Un-named poster,

I haven't contradicted myself. Balanced diversity levels the playing field. It gives every child the same opportunity. It balances funding and resources. It doesn't really matter what you call a districting plan, you members of Garth's segregation society will always draw the lines for your neighborhood school around middle class white families. You cannot have true choice because of school capacity. Its about race. You don't care about poor kids you just want them kept out of your school.

The Real Truth

"I haven't contradicted myself. Balanced diversity levels the playing field. It gives every child the same opportunity. It balances funding and resources."

This is nothing but double-speak worthy of Terry Grier himself. You have said exactly nada..zilch. Tell us how it does all of that. I suspect that you can't explain it, as it is just talking points which you don't even understand yourself. Quit embarrassing yourself.

RT, You havent answered the question. Its one mile to two middle schools. Why will you not let them walk there?
What kind of a person are you Real Truth?

RT,

Why do you want to further punish the poor by making them travel great distances to school? Make Terry Grier teach them where they are just like he does for the families of Greensboro. Don't the High Point poor deserve that?

RT,

How does this level the playing field? You never explained this because you can't. Andrews gets tons of extra money. The resources do not follow these kids on the long school bus ride to SW. It would be different if extra counselors, assistant principals, resource officers were provided.

Terry Grier himself has quoted other top educators who say the magic silver bullet is 15 per class. The Guilford Education Alliance was quoted as saying this is the magic bullet about a year ago in the newspaper. Why would you deny these kids who are struggling so a smaller classroom learning environment where they can get the extra help they need?

Why do you want them bused out so they can't participate in sports or clubs? Are you willing to pick them up when they are sick and don't have a ride home?

It has never ever been proven that a black student sitting next to a white student will learn any better. That is an insult. There are tough schools in other states that have been successful by bringing in resources, enforcing displine and establishing stability. They just didn't ship out the kids they didn't want so they could hide them.

He/She does not want them at her/his school.

I hate selfish people.

RT,

I think your work is done in High Point.

Move on to bigger and better things - like Dudley, Smith, Northwest and Northern.

Jaboo,

Poor people do deserve that. Now we have the resources at Welborn and Andrews. I noticed one somethin. I don't see anyone else liking RT's ideas on this blog. I think everyone on this CB has her number. My kid just wants to walk to his own school in his own neighborhood.

Would you all want to send your son or daughter to a college where many 15 year olds could pass and do well in the freshman courses?

I think 1 mile is a long way normally but I suppose in a really poor area I think that it is much better than 8 miles across town. If this is true then these poor children should be able to go to the local schools. It must be a hardship for them to be so far away from home.

Why are they not allowed? I thought bussing has against the law for many years now.

Busing is against the law. The first "Choice" Plan that was a fixed lottery using FRL figures to fix the lottery. Now the Department of Agriculture does not allow these number to be used for busing purposes. The last map C something was clearly a blatent swapping plan.

Now the RTP, The Real Choice Plan, allows those in the last swapping plan to choose. They can stay at SWH, SWM , Andrews, or Welborn or they can go back to their original school. Students can take a bus or walk. Everybody wins. It's a True Choice Plan and parents can decide where their kids go to school, not social engineers.

Why does this RT person not want this kids to have a choice? The poorest of the poor need to be close to school. To participate in band, sports, tutoring etc..

What sort of mean person would not let them have a choice?

Now that RT has once again moved the discussion from the topic at hand--AP courses, exams and scores--to race-baiting and lots of socio/psychobabble, may we get back to AP stuff. One respondent wondered if it were money that drives the AP frenzy. I suspect, yes.

Back in the 60's, when I was in high school, there were no AP classes, just the tests. If you were kicking it in a class for which there were a test and had, I think, $35 burning a hole in your pocket, you could take the test. The test was scored by readers, but all the colleges I applied to received your test, read it, and made their own decision whether to grant you college credit. I assume far fewer students took AP tests then and even fewer still got credit--credit being either actual course credit or placement out of a lower level class, either of which would make one's college career a bit shorter. At my college, for instance, only 2 of us from the 30+ who had taken the English test were granted full credit.

The important thing to note was that demanding courses were the construct of individual schools and students' and parents' demands. They were not imposed or brought from outside.

Between then and now, I'm not sure when, the College Board realized that AP could become yet another cash cow--remember, ETS is a privately held company so no one knows how much they make each year--along with the PSAT, SAT, GRE, MAT, GMAT, etc. So were born AP classes to match the AP tests, seminars for prospective or current AP teachers, materials. Thus, the AP process went from being a type of placement exam to a top-to-bottom package that has been sold extensively across the country. While the College Board has always stated that the quality of a school should not be based either on SAT or AP participation or scores, I can't imagine they are unhappy with their bottom line as the Newsweek article pushes more and more schools to sign on to the AP program.

I think that the AP courses are very different than the regular courses offered, and often, depending upon the students and teacher very demanding indeed. I know we cannot go back to the system under which I was taught and tested, for the tests are definitely aligned with the AP curriculum--our state curriculum does not match closely enough. What bothers me, however, is that across the country the only way we can offer thorough, demanding courses is by bringing them in from the outside rather than having really strong students in a history or English class just sit for the exams.

It's a pattern in education and our state and district seems happy to fit. But when one hears a rumor that being in the 20-25th percentile on the 3rd grade reading test is enough for a pass, it doesn't take long to figure out why so many of our high school students are not ready for AP or many other courses.

ark,

I appreciate your post. I found your observations to be very interesting and I think accurate.

Ark,
very well put and very insightful.

Now that our EOG's for math have been renormed, kids have to pass about 40% of the questions to make a 3 on the test. Still low in my opinion, or perhaps the test ask alot of questions that aren't in the material etc.

The language tests will be renormed soon-next year I believe and then all of those scores will drop drastically. Many of our low 3's fall to 2's during renorming. Testing is just not going away in our society. I would be happy if a balance could be made between monitering mastery of a subject with teaching to the test.

Debora,

I love the norming, renorming, of tests. If you and I told the IRS that we needed to keep our records until after Labor Day to work on them, I suspect they would say we were cooking the books. DPI works those scores over and over to reach, one assumes, a politically palatable set of scores.

What we all seem to forget is that we are talking about scores on a minimal standards test. At least, to their credit, our high school students who score poorly on an AP exam are up against a stiff test and stiff competition.

You're right. Testing isn't going to go away, but I hope at some point it ceases to be the whole point of children sitting in school. At the moment, education seems to me to be a grand sociological experiment that isn't working very well. Sadly, students don't get into college or get a job on the basis of being part of a failing experiment.

Stormy,
That's all the information I had at the time and I'm not sure if the e-mail I'm posting below will help any. But here it is:
This e-mail came late Friday night after I had left. It is from Thomas Ewing with ETS, the company that handles the tests for the College Board.

"Jennifer,
Sorry it took me so long to get back with you but the AP coordinator just got back from dinner with his family. I checked with him and confirmed that there was a missing box of tests (I believe you know the subjects) that the Central High School officials could not locate. Obviously, the tests could not be administered while ETS and school officials tried to determine what happened to the shipment.
School officials were most helpful and it was a puzzle until just yesterday when the missing box was returned to ETS. The shipment came back to us with the appropriate shipping labels. We are still investigating what happened, but regardless, the box has been found and we are making arrangements with the school to test the students next week."

Also, someone had asked about what tests students would take. Eric Becoats said Friday that students would not get a "retest" but the original materials would be sent back.

I can double check that with ETS/College Board.

You Garth Loving, Grier Hating SW people just cannot stand it that High Point Central significantly Out-ranked SW by a national magazine in school quality. Apparently having a segregated school doesn't produce the results you want after all. Your attempts to discredit the ranking are nothing short of despicable behavior. Of course that is what we have learned to expect from you.

The Real Truth

If Dot really thought that Central outranked SW in anything, the original choice plan would have never seen the light of day.

Dot is the one that told me 3 years ago that "every town needs a black school. Greensboro has Dudley and Andrews should be the school in High Point." That is a direct quote!

btw, I am not from SW.

Again, trying to stay on topic.....

ark - you bring up another interesting point. What if the NC EOG's were, instead, national tests? I would think that the data manipulation to reach a politically correct and palatable set of statistics would be much harder.

And while I agree that AP tests are big business for ETS, at least it is a national exam and states cannot "interpret" the findings to their advantage.

Jennifer,

Thanks for the update, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions here. One question is why no one bothered to check with UPS and use the tracking number to locate the tests. The Central AP coordinator had to know pretty close on what date the tests whould arrive, and upon not receiving them, check with UPS regarding status. I know that when I am expecting an important package to be delivered by UPS, I check their website to check status. Have you interviewed the AP coordinator at Central to ask about this? That person would be more informative than Becoats, as he was not involved with the mixup.

Also, why is CB allowing them to take the original AP tests weeks after the scheduled date? I would think that they would have some concerns about test-takers taking the same test that other students have taken weeks before. Isn't there a concern about test integrity here? It would be a good idea to check with CB and ask that question.

And for a different way to look at the data, here's the schools ranked by "AP Points per 100 Students" (the total AP points earned times 100 divided by the number of students). Schools with a lot of students that score 5s are will be at the top.

Early College at Guilford 488.40
Weaver 224.81
Grimsley 180.11
Western 146.90
Northwest 133.52
Page 119.66
Southwest 96.79
Ragsdale 84.63
Andrews 68.21
Southeast 67.84
HP Central 67.04
Southern 58.02
Northeast 54.70
Eastern 51.02
Smith 26.36
Dudley 25.61
GSO Middle College 4.90

District 93.82

There is something fishy here. I would not trust any result out of High Point Central.

Ark and Numbersgame,

Thanks for elevating the level of discussion on this strand. It's hard to stay on point with a certain individual on this blog.

I have to "laugh out loud" as the kids say at Real Truth if he/she thinks SWHS and SWMS are "white" schools. I invite you, Real Truth, to visit the Southwest Schools and see for yourself. I think your "white" opinion of these schools will change.

Thank you, Stormy, I do my best. Since I'm not very clever, I can only keep one thread straight at a time. Most discussions about education in this county generate more than enough heat, so I, along with several others, aim for some extra light. I understand being passionate about schooling, for I have 30+ years in the profession and two younger children, but I find that the louder my voice gets, the more strident I become, the less sense I make.

Good PR is nice, reality seems nicer.

Here's an alternate ranking of the schools using "AP Points per hundred students" i.e. the cumulative AP points times 100 divided by the school's enrollment. Schools with greater proportion of students scoring 5 are ranked highest along with schools having a large number of students taking tests.

Early College 488.40
Weaver 224.81
Grimsley 180.11
Western 146.90
Northwest 133.52
Page 119.66
Southwest 96.79
Ragsdale 84.63
Andrews 68.21
Southeast 67.84
HP Central 67.04
Southern 58.02
Northeast 54.70
Eastern 51.02
Smith 26.36
Dudley 25.61
GSO Mid College 4.90

District 93.82

jwg

is this divided by the school's enrollment or the number of students who took the test?

Great to be back on subject. I am very grateful my daughter has a chance to take AP classes Jim. At least its a respected national curriculum and there is no fiddling with the results (most schools anyway).

RT,

We could care less what the Newsweek magazine said. You can read from the many informed postings above that these numbers of "who took the test" mean nothing. Contrary to what you think, we are proud when Central does well as a bunch of our children were shanghaied (sp?) during the infamous Not Real Choice Plan. Many of our smart children that Dot just had to have are in Central's IB Program. So when Central does well it's those SW kids that the system stole.

Nancy you are so right and double LOL about SWM and SWH being white schools. Walk the halls, go to school functions, look at the yearbook. Maybe RT is colorblind.

Ark,

Great points on AP and very insightful.

When you took the exams in the 60's where these the CLEP exams? These were offered later on too and a great way to earn college credit.

It would be great to have the EOGs be national exams. This would be a real test to who we compare with the rest of the nation.

Jaboo,

I've heard that other High Point leaders thought Andrews would make a great black school just like Dudley. The school could promote black culture and have a wonderful step band. The school could prove that you don't need white kids to be successful. There's nothing like the pride the Dudley family has. They have some very involved parents and a great school board rep in Amos. I believe Deena would prefer to see segregated schools from what I have heard. She just believes in equal resources. All schools should have the resources they need.

June 4, 2007 10:26 PM,

The sum of AP points is divided by enrollment (from DPI) - not number of test takers - so that a school that has a lot of test takers ranks as high as a school with a few high scorers.

Thanks!

Thank you, jwg. Now this makes sense as to why the numbers for some schools seem high. No wonder GC wants more students taking the test. Even a bunch of 2s could add up.

We need to see the number of students who make a minimum of a C in an AP course compaired to the number of students taking th test at each school. This should be easy to track. They track every other microscopic statistic if it helps the PR campaign.

Let's see some real data that shows real scores in GC.

RT,

Why would we care if SW makes it in a magazine? Remember (according to your warped perspective) we only care about OUR kids. We wouldn't be caring if the other majority minority kids now at SW make it.

Once again, you contradict yourself.

We do love Garth though. So glad you noticed. He is for helping all children.

G G GO GARTH

Barbara Ann,

I don't remember any CLEP tests; I also took 6 achievement tests, three with the SAT as a junior and three more with the SAT as a senior. ETS hadn't thought up the PSAT at the time. I don't remember feeling as much stress over testing then, probably because my school gave no multiple choice tests so they seemed easy to me. My college has made the SAT optional, preferring to use other methods of assessment for prospective students.

I have nothing against testing, although the frequency seems a bit much, only I wish that the bar were set a bit higher. National tests might just accomplish that.

Ahh Sw,

As stated before, Newsweek magazine a highly respected national news media outlet ranked High Point Central higher than your segregated SWHS and you cannot stand it. You choose your school because of race not accademics hurting your own children with mediocrity just to avoid black children. Really dumb!

Jaboo,

I bet you would really like an all black High School so Sw wouldn't have any black children and you could have a Master Race Magnet School! We could do away with directional names of schools and call it Adolf Hitler High!

The Real Truth

Jennifer and Morgan,

Could you please not include the sort of hateful, tit for tat garbage that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? I have nothing against ignorance, but does it have to be almost celebrated here? Why don't some of you people just meet in a parking lot somewhere and decide your differences and leave those of us who how to learn and share out of your ugliness and name-calling? Goodness, some of you people are tiresome . . . is it any wonder that so many of our students are so uncivil and unpleasant?

To answer the anonymous poster about the AP class grades, the district does not currently track how students perform in the class, only the exam results. So Jennifer and I would have to talk to individual teachers and gather anecdotal data, which would be very unscientific.

Ark,
Jennifer and I would love to see the posts stay on topic as much as you but we aren't going to delete every unrelated post as that could actually hurt the dialogue in some cases, not help it. It's up to the posters themselves to keep the discussion on topic. However, we don't tolerate profane, vulgar or sexual comments. It's a fine line.

June 5, 2007 7:04 AM

"We need to see the number of students who make a minimum of a C in an AP course compaired to the number of students taking th test at each school. This should be easy to track."

This data may in the data Morgan provided above i.e. she has a column showing the % test takers making a 3 or above. Whether or not this relates to making a C or better in the class, I don't know. I would suspect that it is more likely that a student would do well in the class and poor on the test than the other way round (make less than a 'C' in the class but ace the test).

The % making >=3:

Early College at Guilford 80.8
Grimsley 64.8
Weaver 63
Northwest 62
Ragsdale 55
Page 50
GSO Middle College 50
Western 41.1
Northeast 37
Southwest 31.8
Southeast 29.4
HP Central 27.1
Southern 26.7
Andrews 15.7
Eastern 13
Smith 11.7
Dudley 6.1

District 42.5

This Newsweek ranking is nothing more than a way to increase (as its creator/author says) "attention on the newstands". It has nothing to do with a school's educational value -- it is merely a ranking that takes the number of AP exams administered at a school and dividing it by the number of graduating seniors. So, to 'brag' about a school's ranking is ludicrous: every student at a high ranking school (in the Newsweek assessment) could FAIL the AP exam, (and fail state & federal benchmarks) but as long as there are lots of students taking the test, the school could rank high in this "best" high school list. Shouldn't results count?

Mathews was also quoted as saying that he doesn't factor in how students actually do on the AP exams because then schools would only allow top students to take the courses/exams. He has also said that his agenda is to promote access of AP into lower income schools.

I applaud his rationale, but strongly fault him (and Newsweek)on why these rankings are published. They do nothing but give school districts and schools another method to 'brag' about improvement when in actuality there is no qualitative meaning to such rankings!

These rankings are used to sell magazines and promote the author's marketablity and perhaps even give the College Board (the test administrators) more publicity (and money). The only useful information the rank gives is to show that more AP exams are being given (thus more money in the pockets of the College Board).

I am a Southwest and a High Point Central parent. I will NOT, repeat will NOT let the comments of this RT person go without reply. I do question this school system all the time. It’s my right and I do think that it is very healthy for the system. It adds value. RT's generalizing statements that everyone who posts on here is a Grier hating, Garth loving Southwest parent are simply wrong are of no value whatsoever and cannot go ignored.

Contrary to what RT says his/her values are motivated for selfish reasons. He/She will not even give us his/her background so we can understand where his/hers arguments come from.
The reason is that the background will bring out in the open the real selfish reasoning.

So, in summary, the fight goes on as long as RT continues to name call.

JWG,
I agree that students would be more likely to do better in class than on the test and I doubt you would see any real surprises from looking at AP grades. For example, a student who scores a 5 on the AP exam would almost always score an A in the class. But some students who score an A in the class may bomb on the test or not take it seriously because it doesn't count toward their final grade or graduation requirements. Or the class tests may be scored on a curve (as even some college professors do), which would inflate the test scores. If anything, the grades could say more about the teacher than the students taking the class (I am a former AP student). Moreover, I believe the intent of GCS and other school systems is to expose more students to college level work without the pressure of paying for the exam (one has to ask why a student who already doubts he is capable of college-level work would use his or his parents' money to confirm his self-assessment; on the other hand I used some of my part-time job money to pay for a test because I already knew I would be accepted into a college). The question is, should taxpayer money be used to encourage more students to take the course, even though they may not score high enough to earn college credit? Or should there be stipulations: students who don't score at least a three don't deserve to have the test paid for by the public regardless of whether the AP experience in its entirety benefited the student and motivated some initially non-college bound students to consider higher ed. Maybe the more poetic would ask, what is the value of $75 versus a student?

Re: Newsweek.
Its just one way to rank a school. The best schools in our system for ABC's, AP's and SAT scores are Grimsley and Northwest. Grimsley however, has the biggest acheivement gap and the highest dropout rate for African Americans. Its fairly diverse in the freshmen year but by the Junior year about 50% of the African American population have dropped out. Statistically speaking you have more chance of graduating at Andrews and Dudley than Grimsley if you are African American. Aint that a funny thing?

Looking at the numbers on one of the posts above you can see another examople of where Smith and Dudley score behind Andrews and Central.

Smith and Dudley are also on Judge Mannings "watch" list.

Does it make anyone wonder as to why the school board messed aroung with High Point so many times over the last few years?

If common sense ruled they could not justify it.

Morgan,

I'm not sure that the money is what motivates students to take the courses, it's just a bonus at the end. Two observations. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them; when people get something for nothing they tend to not care much about it. And spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for "experience" is a wonderful thing . . . as long as the budget keeps expanding and there seem to be limitless funds. The last is decidedly not the case, so the real question becomes is it better to spend here or there, on AP exams or something else.

I'm not sure that the cost of an exam or two would break anyone's bank, and there are ways to waive the fees for those needing such. Like you, I spent money earned during summer employment to pay for my own tests and have never regretted the money spent.

Ark,
That is a legitimate question to ask and every program the district has should be evaluated from time to time for effectiveness. To be clear, GCS students who enroll in AP courses are required to take the test. If GCS stopped paying for the tests, it is possible fewer students would take the test while possibly increasing the number of students taking the courses. However, you would lose the measurement piece because you would only have test results from the students who decided to take the exam. I disagree with you that people care most about things they pay for, partly because that overly generalizes peoples' motivations. Some of the things and experiences I value most I received either for free without my doing anything to deserve it or through my hard work alone; other things I have paid for because I have the luxury of doing so and found it not to be worth it in the end. That's like saying a student who pays for college appreciates it more than a student who receives a full scholarship.

I would like to see GCS get all qualified students submitted for free tests. It is the taxpayer money.

I am torn about whether students should have to pay or even take the test. The problem as I see it is that many are pushed into AP and don't really care about scores. Why should the taxpayer pay if the student doesn't care.

In addition, a thought on grades...at Dudly 6% pass the AP... my guess is 90% or so pass the class.... that is a huge difference, what is the problem here? Not qualified teachers, rigor is not demanded, students have no vision of college so they don't care???? Since Dudley is not a MP school, teachers aren't drawn to that school? How do we change this?

Morgan,

I am being overly simplistic, but you will admit, I hope, that ownership of something makes one care more however that ownership is established. I don't understand why more students would take the course and not the exam, for what would be the point of taking the course if not to get ready for a rigorous exam? I would say that if a student took the course but not the exam, the student would not receive the benefit of the weighted GPA. Of course, I don't think they should weight the GPAs anyway, but that's another thread.

I, too, was brought up to appreciate whatever came my way and to cherish things whether free or not, but still, I took better care of and remember even more those things I paid for either with my own money or the sweat of my brow. As I attended college first on an athletic scholarship and then courtesy of Uncle Sam--including nearly two years in the jungles of SE Asia--there is no such thing as a totally free ride to school; that's like the 60's notion of free love . . . you always pay something. And I'm old enough to remember when $.75/hr was considered pretty good pay for a kid.

I know we have poor children, and I'm not advocating placing deserving children out of any AP classes just because of the cost of the test, but some effort could be made to find scholarship or grant money to cover that. Whenever anyone begins with the notion "We can't expect these people to do . . . because . . ." we will never find out whether we can or can't but rather whether we will or won't. And the answer is we won't.

SW Central Parent

When you hear a jackass braying, the noise is deafening and unpleasant. But the only thing you can do is to consider the source and move on. After all, you can't send the poor beast for voice lessons.

Ark,

I didn't call anybody any names. I just responded to Jaboo's comment. As usual you don't think I should have a voice because I'm not a Grier Hating, Garth Loving segregationist.

You certainly have the right to question every program and dollar spent but you need to recognize my right to question your motivation. Everytime there is good news you question its validity and try to find fault. You are extremely negative. According to you and your co-horts the sky is always falling and there is a conspiracy around every corner.

Since when is it a crime to support our school system and its leaders? I celebrate good news! I appreciate our schools system and it's efforts to help all children in Guilford County and when I read comments that are obviously motivated by questionable motives I call them out. While I may be in the minority on this blog, I'm certainly in the majority of Guilford County citizens.

The Real Truth

Ark, the above post was directed at SW Parent not you... sorry.

The Real Truth

Debora,
I plan on taking a deeper look at this phenomenon next school year. For one, I am waiting on the 2007 scores to come out. But I also hope to observe some classes and talk to students to see what they are getting out of the class and what their thoughts are about the exam.

"That's like saying a student who pays for college appreciates it more than a student who receives a full scholarship."

That's a flawed argument, Morgan. If a student receives a full scholarship, they have earned and paid for it with their hard work and effort with their studies. They aren't really getting it for "free", they have "earned" it.

Free - without cost, payment, or charge.
Earn - to acquire through merit.

As someone once said "If nobody is paying for it, there may be a good reason.

Morgan,

"The question is, should taxpayer money be used to encourage more students to take the course, even though they may not score high enough to earn college credit?"

I wasn't aware that we were paying the kids to take the class. I thought that we were paying for the taking the test which is a requirement if you call the class an AP Class (I presume that you could offer the same material, by the same teacher and not call it an AP class thereby eliminating the requirement for testing).

If the requirement of taking the test was eliminated, students could still have the 'college' experience of a rigorous course and those that wanted to take the test - to place out of college classes or bump their GPA - could still have the cost covered by GCS I may not have the mechanics right, please correct me if I'm wrong.

How many non-college bound students are 'forced' to take the test when it's not "necessary"? How many more students would take AP classes if they didn't have to take the exam?

I've taken classes and not taken the exams (in my day it was called 'auditing' a class) just to get the information from the class.

Morgan,

If the students on FRL had to pay for AP test where they made less than a 3 do you think they would pay? Could you make them pay. I doubt it.

GC should either pay for all the tests or none of the tests. Everyone should be given the chance. You can't punish a child by making them pay if they had a bad test day, or the teacher didn't finish teaching all the material because they are on second period block and other students have the benefit of a traditional schedule. You can't exclude a child because he can't afford the test fee but just may not test well.

"Dudley is not an MP school"

Deb,

What's does "MP" stand for?

"I don't understand why mroe students would take the course and not the exams..." Ark

Ark,

There are many reasons students take AP courses who want to do them:

- to be challenged
- to not be bored in another class
- to have a course that will truly prepare them for college level work
- to improve their GPA
- to be competive for top colleges

If students were not receiving a weighted GPA why would they sacrifice their personal lives to put all the time and effort into an AP class? Should someone taking say a Photography Class and receiving an A be considered equal to someone receiving an A in AP Calc or Physics? I don't think so.

College apps and scholarship apps ask for both actual GPA and weighted GPAs. They consider both. If the GPAs were not weighted why would anyone put in all this effort to just get an "A" that would mean the same as someone taking a simple CP class(which really doesn't prepare them for college)?

Think about this. Someone could take the basic Math, easy English, photography, weight training,chorus, etc. receive and receive all A s.

Another student could take AP English, AP Latin, AP Calc, AP Chem, AP Physics, etc. and receive all A s. Are these two students being educated on equal levels and top college material?

Also GPAs must be weighted when you are considering who will be your top students for awards, recognition and valecdictorian. You can get down to 3/10s of a point when it gets to the finish lined.

Schools across the country use weighted GPAs so you have to use the same scale to compare apples to apples.

Mission Possible

The anonymous responder who says she's happy her/his child took the AP class, didn't read my post quite right. I asked whether we would want our children to take a COLLEGE course )at an accredited COLLEGE) which was set up in such a way that a great many 15 year olds could pass or even get high grades in it? The bias against the arts is a symptom of this (note, though, how Weaver students are doing on the APs).

I can't speak for Photography, but I know of not a single 15 year old who could pass my college basic drawing course. As it should be. They do not, unless they are Picassoid prodigies, possess the cerebral maturity. And I, for one, would NOT want my child to attend any college where the introductory material and tests in any subject were meant to be passable for 15 year olds. hence, I sincerely doubt these AP classes, particularly for the younger grades, are truly "college level". Unless we mean Liberty University.

Jim,

I'll overlook the Liberty University reference.

I know of 15 year olds in the Early College who are, in fact, taking college classes with college students and doing just fine.

There are some 15 year olds who are ready for this, but they are certainly in the tiny minority of students in this county.

RT, There is a phone call for you.

Its Terry Grier...........

In regards AP testing I looked at Morgans data and it shows that a higher percentage of Juniors fail with 1 and 2's. Last year 62% of Juniors failed AP exams vs 56% of Seniors and 45% of sophomores. There were also more tests taken in the Junior year that any other.
We are testing more children every year but there are also more kids passing with a 3 and above every year. Last year 336 more children took AP tests. We had 93 more passes.
What do we make of it?

Hello RT, Its Terry, thanks for all your support. I hate those SW parents as well. They really keep me in check! I prefer more people like you.

You are so nice...

HAGS.

Jim,

There is not much distinction for "younger grades" in AP classes. I know sophomores who took AP Psych and seniors who are taking it now. I know sophomore who took AP Stats and seniors taking it now, same goes for the sciences.

And I beg do differ on your opinion of AP classes. Duke and Wake are top schools. They both accept many of my daughters AP courses for credit. In fact,if she had chose State she would be starting close to sophomore level in the School of Engineering which is tough to get into.

I personally know the time she put into studying, writing, and projects for her AP classes. She's finishing either number 1 or 2 in the Senior class. We will get the final answer tomorrow. She wouldn't be there or accepted at Duke and Wake if it weren' for AP.

I don't think they offer AP Drawing for college.

The only problem I do have with AP classes is if some students are pushed to take these classes who a) have no desire to go to college b) don't have the focus or desire to put in the effort for these classes or c) taking some study as very meaningful when it just measure the number of students taking the test, not those who are actually cutting it

another note....

At SWH we have three students who applied to Duke and were accepted. All are Florence Elementary School alumni of which I am extra proud. My daughter who was one of the 3, but she chose Wake. We have a student who was accepted into the Naval Academy. We have many students going to UNC Chapel Hill and one to the University of South Carolina. All of these students took several AP classes and most of them received some type of scholarship or fellowship, some full scholarships. AP classes had much to do with these successes. They are very necessary in today's competitive world if you want to get into the top colleges.

please excuse all my typos/grammatical errors in first post - it's getting late - my apologies

I know of a 15 year old lady (probably 16 now) who goes to early college, has taken AP classes and passes them with 4s and 5s, is a state volleyball champ and takes ROTC at another school. She already knows she wants to fly jets. She's pretty too but I don't think she can draw. There are several branches of the military chomping at the bit to lore her in (even if she can't draw). Will it be the Naval Academy or the Air Force? Nothing personal about "can't draw", but here is another example where AP is working.

We need to encourage theses students, support them and keep raising the bar. If the gap becomes wider because of these kids, so be it. We need to look at what is really happening if we lower the gap and make sure we aren't just "dummying down" to "look good".

HAGS for you too Barbara Ann.

Terry

To anonymous poster addressing Morgan,

Maybe more students would want to take AP courses if you didn't have to take the test. But it doesn't work that way.

College and scholarship applications ask which AP classes you took and also the grade you made on the test. How would it look if a student listed all these classes but didn't take the tests? Colleges and scholarship foundations do consider the scores, along with the rigor of the curriculum taken and how many AP classes the schools offer. There is a fact sheet put out by the guidance office that explains several factors about the high school, one of which is the number of AP classes offered and other facts like the size of the high school, etc.

To all: The bottom line is AP classes are here to stay. For those of us whose children have benefited from these, we are very thankful for the AP program and that the tests are paid for. We are looking forward to "Cool to be Smart" this summer. We read the Newsweek report for what it is: one person's opinion/rating on high schools listing just the number of tests taken, i.e. the potential rigor of a school's curriculum, NOT whether it's working to make that particular school successful, NOT whether many students are passing with a 3 or more, NOT who is being pushed to take these classes.

It's just ONE rating of many and it also mentions a disclaimer.

There are numerous ratings and various consultants out there? Are certain reports relevant? What do they actually measure? Who is paying the consultant? What are they getting in return for hiring a certain consultant? Who does the consultant know? Who wanted the consultant in the first place and why? The answer to these questions is you need to look at the total picture, consider all the above, and sift through the b.s. That's public education. It's big business in this country.

HAGS TO ALL.

BAM

Actually, they do have AP art and art history.

That doesn't mean children at 15 or so are able to easily get past the typical teenage "copying" stage to learn classical geometric perspective, foreshortening and gestural accuracy, not to mention convincing schematic blocking of form and mass. Mosst people, in fact, never progress beyond 10 years old in their perceptual abilities. Many, many excellent physicists, engineers and geometers, along with doctors and others do draw well, tough; i is a key way to extend one's conceptual thought.

I have no doubt students can memorize things. That's not the point of the best college learning.

It well may be that colleges now admit their first year is basically high school-level.

Jim,

I know they have AP Art, Art History and Music too. I was facetious. Please forgive me.

I love the arts. It was very much a part of my daughter's growing up: piano, 8 years of dance, plays, museums and art shows (we head up next week for our annual trip to the Virginia Beach Boardwalk Art Show). It's all good and definitely helps ones conceptual thinking.

I have to say that some kids may just memorize but that's not enough to do well in AP - you have to be able to think. I try every time I sub to get the little ones to "think" and not just memorize. They love challenging, fun questions.

Did I mention my daughter received numerous Art awards at the State Latin convention: #1 in handmade dolls, 3rd in mixed media and water color, #2 in creative writing, numerous art awards in middle school, and the recipient of the Supertendent's Art Choice Award Elementary School level countywide in 2000. Not to brag but I am feeling quite proud this week of graduation. She never took an art class. That part is heredity from our side of the family. Some people have this right and left side gifted brain; others don't. I have always told her if you are given these special gifts, you must use all of them.

But there are many who can't draw but still "get" algebra, geometry, etc.

I will never agree that Duke, Wake, John Hopkins and Harvard are high school level at freshman year. Sorry...can't give you that one.

HAGS, Jim

oops - she did have art class in elementary school and as part of "the wheel" in 6th grade.

I encouraged her to take more art classes as electives but her reply was "I can do that naturally. I am not wasting my time of fluff."

That's her. I wish she would have taken a few art classes for the simple fun of it. Her idea of fun is reading a long Russion novel (not mine) but to each their own.

As Quest has stated many of our 15 year olds are ready for AP and do quite well. I see these bright children all the time in elementary school. They are truly amazing. Others have much potential and we need to nurture these children along so they can be the best they can be not just doing what it takes to "look good" for PR purposes. We have so many great kids in our schools along with super parents. I hate that we have lost so many of them to private schools because of constant redistricting and social engineering in High Point. That goes for the kids who are tops in sports, art and whatever.

Why would a smart school board wanting to keep making parents angry so more leave our public schools? They wouldn't. I hope the peace remains for awhile and the social engineering stops. Just educate kids where they are and teach them to be their best which includes following the rules of behavior.

Over and out (for now)

Barbara Ann,

Congratulations! Your daughter is Number 1 or Number 2 in her class. You should be very proud. That is quite an accomplishment. Too bad all kids don't have nurturing parents that challenge their children the way you have done. Good Job!

The Real Truth

Jim,
I had the same question about the quality and level
of the AP courses being taught.

All I know is my son took AP Calculus, AP Chemistry, and AP English. He received A's and B's in these courses and 3's and 4's on the exam.

Instead of accepting credit for these courses in college, he took the college level course at NC State.

He had a 99.7 in the Freshman Calculus class because the teacher did not give 100's...
He has a 3.97 GPA and has taken Calculus, Biology, Chemistry and English.

He graduated from one of the lowest rated high schools in our county and is excelling in a large university.

He has been told since 3rd grade that he was too young to understand advanced math topics....and teachers would hold him back to keep up with the class.

I think the tragedy is that he was actually ready
to absorb a lot more than he was given credit for at a much younger age.

I am thankful for the person that pushed him to take these courses.