News-Record.com

Four-Year
Cohort Graduation Rate

Our School - 83.7
District - 79.7

Morgan, if Dudley is 4 points higher than the district average, what schools are below the average? Wasn't Dudley one of of Judge Manning's target schools for rehab? Sounds like the reliability of school data around here is shaky at best.

If you look at the real numbers of the last few years only 66% of enrolling Freshmen are still in school at the start of their senior year three years later.

For instance in 2004 Guilford County had a total of 2496 kids that were enrolled in their freshmen year. In 2007 only 1640 enrolled in the senior year. Where did the 856 go?

Grier and NC has some funny way of calculating it. Maybe they only count the senior year dropouts? I dont know but the numbers say something different to me. I suspect that the Associated press have the right figures.
The 59% for Dudley is probably right.

If you look at the real numbers of the last few years only 66% of enrolling Freshmen are still in school at the start of their senior year three years later.

For instance in 2004 Guilford County had a total of 2496 kids that were enrolled in their freshmen year. In 2007 only 1640 enrolled in the senior year. Where did the 856 go?

Grier and NC has some funny way of calculating it. Maybe they only count the senior year dropouts? I dont know but the numbers say something different to me. I suspect that the Associated press have the right figures.
The 59% for Dudley is probably right.

Grier's Friday Notes will place a positive spin on this AP story.

I know almost 300 were in my student's freshman class
and only around 120 were on the graduation list .

If these are the numbers the AP is looking at...their percentages are correct.

Central is listed as one of the "best public schools" by US News because of the IB program, and also as a "dropout factory" by AP because of the pathetic status of its lowest-achieving group. This shows the utter folly of ranking schools (also of NCLB) instead of focusing on how to better teach and motivate kids of all academic levels. And let's all remember, despite the best efforts, some kids will still drop out.

And that would make Dr. Grier the Plant Manager of this factory?

Gatecity Keeper you crack me up!

Its actually not funny. Its the pure facts to prove that all Grier does is put a spin on all of Guilford Counties results.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King.

Arise your majesty Grier!

Go forth yea blind people of Guilford County!

Sounds like my chocolate factory. Children keep disappearing all the time.

And who would the Balimpas be?

Willy, I'm not sure who Balimpas is, but the two HP Board Reps who made children disappear from the public schools in the last 4 years were Dot and Susan. Not to worry, it turns out the children were OK and turned up in private schools throughout the County and surrounding area.

Last year thankfully, Susan disappeared.

hey me 2,
I can decide for myself if a comment is funny but I will agree that Grier is the spindoctor.

buckmtn,
It was nice getting rid of Susan but lets not forget Marty. Our part of the county is most thankful for that!

...Said,

I sometimes think that some people actually enjoy that Grier is failing our kids.

I personally dont think how anyone could think it funny.

Me2,
I don't think anybody enjoys it when Grier fails our kids. I'm sorry if you thought I was laughing at the situation. I simply laughed out loud when I read Gatecity Keeper's comment.

I do not buy the numbers we get for anything in the County. As for dropout - it is just a simple rounding but last numbers that were of statistical reliability were not very good nationally. Only 2/3rds of students graduate High School, 2/3 of that go to college and 60% of that finish a degree beyond High School. More fun yet, we guy's are 5% below norm and girls 5% above norm...ie 10% gap.

Please tell me how we in GCS are doing so much better than national norms? You need to know what the numbers truly represent in detail. Take number of graduating High Schoolers in a growing county and divide by number of beginning freshman 4 years prior and that is a good guestimate of a raw score. We should not judge success by 2 or 3 percentage points on this ratio. I would prefer to know the truth and deal with it than have a political fiction.

I do not believe Terry should be evaluated on this number period. Too many extraneous variables, he does a pretty good job of creatively addressing this issue in real solution terms. I just wish we could deal with the issue in real terms.
Garth

Garth...

A 9th grade English teacher mentioned to me that one of the students that she has the most trouble with disrupting her class is a
17 year old (should be a senior) that is in her 9th grade English class with 13 and 14 year olds.

My son told me that there is someone in his level one elective class that is disrupting the class contiunually that is 18...everyone else is 14 and 15.

Are these students in these classes because of classroom inclusion? They have obviously not been successful in these classes for several years...Why do we just keep sending them back in the same situation?

17 and 18 year olds should not repeatedly take CP English 9....something is obviously not working and they need to be taught in a different setting, in a smaller class, or something......
but they should not be allowed to continually disrupt these classrooms.

Just because a report seems to fit in with your conclusions doesn't mean it is accurate. I would have had trouble localizing this AP story without comparing the methodology used in the study with the methodologies used by Guilford County Schools and the state. Even though some of our high schools have struggled to make state testing goals, etc., to think that 41 percent of students at Dudley are dropping out seems almost ridiculous and can't be taken at face value (is it possible those students enrolled in another program/academy and were lost in the system? The AP map admits there could have been miscodings for some alternative programs). I ran into a similar issue last year when I ran a story based on a graduation index calculated by the district that made Dudley look really bad. Turned out the school had experienced a large fluctuation in its population due to reassignment which made the figure that year a fluke. However I didn't learn this until the first story had run.

Morgan, Why dont you ask Dr Zhang for an excell file of all enrollments for the last six or so years? Have it split by grade 9th to 12th.

You dont need any methodology to work it out. Its simple math. About 2500 kids start the ninth grade in GC every year and three years later there are about 1600 of the same bunch of kids left. Ask any senior kid from our low performing schools about how many have dropped out. Can you seriously believe that these 900 kids are lost in the system?

Before you disagree ask for the figures.

How is it that Terry Grier was named NC Superintendent of the Year today, and one of his three cited achievements was reducing the dropout rate to 3%? Four of his high schools are named Dropout Factories and only 2/3rds of the students don't graduate? This is the makings of the superintendent of the Year?

The superintendent is wearing no clothes!

Parent said...

A 9th grade English teacher mentioned to me that one of the students that she has the most trouble with disrupting her class is a
17 year old (should be a senior) that is in her 9th grade English class with 13 and 14 year olds.

My son told me that there is someone in his level one elective class that is disrupting the class continually that is 18...everyone else is 14 and 15.
RE Parent said:
Are these students in these classes because of classroom inclusion? They have obviously not been successful in these classes for several years...Why do we just keep sending them back in the same situation?

17 and 18 year olds should not repeatedly take CP English 9....something is obviously not working and they need to be taught in a different setting, in a smaller class, or something......
but they should not be allowed to continually disrupt these classrooms.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The new twilight school concept addresses this no child left behind/no alternatives clash. They have the legal right to drop out at 16, but something has kept this person in school. May be just if you drop out you move out instructions from home. Possibly a real desire is there somewhere. Disruption needs to be dealt with and we need some sort of performance contract with these kids. Immaturity is also a factor. Many of us guys never really grow up even after 40 years. Some are men by 12. I wish there was a magic bullet on this one but it has been an issue for my whole life.

My only real meaningful comment on this is...Teachers need to retake their classrooms and we need to let them. This means we lay off Terry on the drop out rate and suspension rates. I recently investigated principal who was actively disciplining whites and not offering same to African Americans. Principal was African American, this leaves a future generation of whites mistrusting African Americans. Kids deserve and have a right to be disciplined! But it must be offered to all kids equally. Until the Board get's the idea that all kids are equal and skin color deserves no preferences we will have serious problems. I personally believe reverse discrimination and tolerance of and the covering up of intolerable and illegal behavior is becoming a major impediment to learning in our community.

The Board turns it�s head on the white flight issue, it is real and what is indicative of our tolerance of the behaviors causing our children to be less competitive in our country. Poor kids have a right to learn the discipline and self respect that comes from the discipline that allows success. Kids have a right to be treated as equals in all social respects, some are more capable and more intelligent than others, a fact of life! These need to be challenged far more. Most of our kids need greater challenges to keep them out of trouble. Assuming that all kids are smart enough to be physicists is absurd. Assuming all can learn social responsibility and self respect from a job well done to the best of one�s abilities isn�t. It is time we rethink our goals in education and teach appropriately.
Garth

Garth said:

"Until the Board get's the idea that all kids are equal and skin color deserves no preferences we will have serious problems. I personally believe reverse discrimination and tolerance of and the covering up of intolerable and illegal behavior is becoming a major impediment to learning in our community."
*****************
Garth, with all due respect, until you all on the Board start challenging Deena Hayes & Company whenever she "starts up," we will keep going in circles. She's a one-issue board member (race), and it is really a cause for concern. It is a valid issue, but that's not the only issue affecting GCS.

The fact, as you brought up, that we have an administrator out there engaging in selective discipline is a cause for concern.

I look forward to engaging our electorate in all of these issues in the months to come.

Anonymous,
Clearly the math is not so simple; otherwise states would not have different ways of calculating dropouts and graduation rates (just recently states have moved in sync to use the more reliable cohort method) and we would not have reports coming out from time to time with different conclusions. Moreover, I cannot legally get that level of detail on student information, meaning I am not entitled to receive the names of students. Without their names and other personal information, there is no way for me to verify which of them were still in high school four years later. You might say just use the code instead of the name, but how do I know if the names were coded correctly? Remember, some students transfer to other schools, some parents move their children to other states without notifying the previous school, etc. And that type of data would take a long time to dig through, which I do not have at the moment. So what does that leave me with? The aggregated report by the district.

What I can do is request aggregate dropout data by high school and see if Guilford's data jives with the AP report. Keep in mind that the dropout data and the "promoting power" index used for the AP report are not technically the same thing.

Anonymous,

If a student transfers to another school, why doesn't the student's school records transfer from his old school to the new school? If it doesn't, how does the new school know what work he has completed and where he should be placed in the new school? It's been a fews years since I was in school, but when my family moved a few times in my school life, records were transferred, just like when I moved from one college to the other.

If records are not being transferred, it appears that students are just being dropped from the system, as he might never show-up again. So, the drop-out rate is inaccurate as you aren't counting students when they leave, but you are counting students when they arrive? Doesn't that skew the rate downward, if I have analyzed this correctly?

Also, we know that the drop-out rate only measures students who notify the district that they are leaving school during the school year. If a student leaves school late in the school year, doesn't notify the district he is leaving, and doesn't return to school the following year, he isn't counted in the drop-out rate. Neither are students counted, who finish school one year and don't return. In these cases, the student did drop-out, but is lost in the system and isn't included in teh drop-out rate. So, what is the real drop-out rate? Certainly, it's more than 3% if only 2/3rds of the students graduate.

The anonymous comment above Wally World belongs to me; I mistakenly forgot to enter my name. I tried to change it but it looks like it didn't show up.

Wally World, you can find the dropout reporting protocol on the N.C. DPI Web site:

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/research/dropout/faq/

I am not sure why the dropout data and the federal data the AP report don't gel, since the U.S. Department of Education's data comes from the states/districts. However, DPI says the reporting periods for the state and federal dropout counts are different.

Also Wally World, I believe students who leave late in the year are included in the dropout rate (i.e. students who attended during the 06-07 year but didn't show up by the 20th day of school in 07-08 are counted as a dropout. Check out page 12-13 of http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/research/dropout/reports/2007dropoutmanual.pdf.

Wally World,
I forgot to mention this: the school board will get an update tonight on dropout rates at the aforementioned schools. In addition, I'm trying to verify if the AP/Johns Hopkins study included or excluded homeless/transient students (initial enrollees) and expelled students wo don't return. North Carolina does not include those groups of students in the dropout rate.

Very nice this blog =)

When looking at a drop out rate, please, please realize there is almost no great way to calculate it for a single school, better for a district and best for a nation. Why? Transient data flows deeply through the stream.
If a school begins with 400 freshmen for example sake, 5 percent relocate with their families to other counties and 5 percent to other county schools. That means 40 percent of kids over 4 years that began at school will not end school at that school. 60 percent are left at school if none drop out. 80 percent are left in district if none drop out. (using simple non compounded math for example) That would leave 240 kids of beginning class in this school at end of 4 years. If 3 percent per year drop out .03x400=12 for each year that would be 48 kids (240-48=194).
Based on this simple scenario, only 48 percent of kids beginning at this school as freshman graduate there 4 years later, a graduation rate of 48 percent if calculated this way. This would be considered a very low drop out rate and a very normal transient rate for a metropolitan area. It misconstrues a simple play on math. 3 percent drop out per year of original population would be 48 (keeping it simple) 48 of 400 = 12 percent. Nationwide this would be fantastic performance. In real amortized math 354 kids graduating out of original class is considered a 3 percent drop out rate.
If we had an annual drop out rate of 10 percent only 2/3rds of that class would graduate High School. Others (LIKE ME) would say that it really is a 34 percent drop out rate. You can track in county transfers and get more accurate, but only on a nationwide basis can we get a realistic picture. To use the cohort method, on an annualized basis you get a measurable rate for comparison purposes county to county. A transient county is hurt by shifting population which is more likely to drop out than kids from a stable county.
Nationally we know that approx 2/3rds of adults aged 25 to 35 have graduated High School, about 2/3rds of that attended college and 2/3rds of that finished or less than 30 percent of kids finish College currently. Another number that Amos should be proud of is that of African American Males that Finish College, 16 percent the odds are 32 percent for those that are Alumni of Boys/Girls clubs. A simple organization has doubled the chance for it’s kids to finish college!
Google the following word group > drop out rate college complete: under NEWS, it is a drop down on your Google search, if you do not have it, go to options under Google and add it. Read a few articles at random, you will find this nationwide issue is a varied as the numbers we want to use to describe it. Holding this number up as a key component of success or failure at anything requires a lot more discussion on what is the purpose of your addressing the issue.
Johns Hopkins used a term drop out factory. It is emotionally charged, politically alarmist and statistically meaningless. In this age of sound bites and political Machiavellianism, we loose fact that most of the public is willing to be led around by the nose ring attached to the purported news media. I neither defend nor attack Terry and our administrators on this issue, more important are the roots and leaves on the tree of learning that must be refined to meet the needs of all our children. Kids drop out for many reasons and there is no one or two or three fixes.
I love numbers and statistics, but remember, truth requires understanding the realities behind the numbers. If one read the Hopkins report in detail only one simple item appears pervasive, a school is not a drop out factory, the community feeding the school, the values and beliefs and supports from the community or lack thereof is what determines drop out/completion.
The one state that does not have a single school labeled drop out factory, has a set of demographics and statistical anomalies that offer little or a lot for a solution depending on your views. They also have lowest cancer rates, longest life span, lowest drug, alcohol and tobacco consumption per capita. Lower teacher compensation, highest arts participation rate etc..
Before you hold a school district or principal or superintendents feet to the fire for something, get the facts, the real facts as best you can. Then maybe we can get real solutions. Something Boys and Girls Clubs have and Utah has offers more hope to solve the problem than toasting Terry’s Toes. If I roast Terry it will be for something he is directly responsible for. Hopefully I am good enough to warn him what I am aiming for like AL program and SAT scores and meaningful well rounded educational experiences and give him a chance to prepare well enough that I can’t roast him. This is called management. (loosely)
Garth

Garth,

We all know that bad data is the source of most costly management problems. Usually, you are better making decisions with no data than bad data. If we do not have reliable data on key indicators of school success, such as drop-out rates and graduation rates, how can you ever "fix" the problem, when you do not know what the problem is or the size of the problem?

And, if we do not have reliable data, how can we hold people accountable for their failures or reward and recognize then for their successes?

"However, the dropout rates for 2004 freshmen at those schools ranged from 8.3 percent at Dudley to 14.1 percent at Smith, said Gongshu Zhang, the district's chief accountability officer".

Anyone that is responsible for the above deserves the "Super of the year" in my book!

What an acheivement. Seriously, after bragging about 3% and then having the AP say its much more we are all very happy that its only 14.1%

Garth, You disappoint me! Lucky for you that your district 2 folks still like you!

Huh?

Was that sarcasm or seriousness?

Parents have the final say about whether or not their children drop out so why are we blaming schools for the dropout issue?

THE GUANTLETT!

I am like a man on a raft in the middle of an ocean of numbers dying of thirst for a glass of truth.

The public believes as a board member we get information not available to others. They believe we have influence. Make no mistake about it, plain and simple; Terry and Alan control the information and the board by that information and agenda. I requested copies of financial journal entries to be voted on by the Board, everything possible has been done to make that information unusable yet after a few hours and some good software I can translate it, the remainder of the Board votes in ignorance! This is wrong, yet better than before.

Why should the public have access to such important information? Why should the Board? There are few staff members I trust. I am so well managed that I am beginning to think that I could find a homeless man or woman to sit in Board meetings for me so they can stay warm and keep my place while I go hiking. They will make as much difference, make others more uncomfortable than I and have a good snack during break.

My best source of information is the news reporters who are led at least as well as we are, but they even get more information from our publicist than I do. Dot and Amos have voted no on bond for very different reasons. Dot is holding out to assign more of the remaining white kids in High Point (she hasn't figured out that there is no middle or high school in or near high point that isn't already predominantly minority) to Andrews and Welborn. Forget the reduced class sizes that have helped the two schools and the kids there. Forget that without the vacant seats there could be no reduced class sizes. Forget we spend more per student there than almost anywhere else.

Taxing Authority, Bonds, you as taxpayers have the right to decide on the facts. I do not believe, support or dislike the taxing authority idea as a concept. If I believed current Board or administration would benefit from it, I would never vote to bring it to the taxpayers to vote on. If things do not change I am tempted to say no on principal. I as a representative of the taxpayer do not believe we have the facts and the games being played with meager information stinks!!! The cover up of violence in our schools by the administration, the sheriff, the Greensboro and High Point police all encouraged by the administration should outrage every taxpayer in the community. (I realize law enforcement is only doing what they think best for fear SRO's will be removed or hampered if they don't) The rampant drugs, the kids who hold going to the bathroom all day for fear of their safety in the restrooms, the constant disruption of classes by undisciplined kids who know they will face no consequences is reprehensible. Our school bus management is an absolute catastrophe because kids that should no longer be on the bus still are. No one cares how long kids are on the bus anymore. No teacher or bus driver deserves this working environment, no student deserves this learning environment. Blaming it on the teachers is Terry's quick disclaimer, it no longer flies. Forced reduction of suspensions by supervisor intimidation must stop.

The total abandonment of the AL program, the dumbing down of our classes to lower the achievement gap, forcing kids in poor schools to take AP classes they do not even understand to increase participation, all and much, much more must stop!!! We are dealing with kids futures and our own national heritage and we fiddle while Rome burns.

After removing a much needed airport middle school for future growth, adding other costs to the bond at that expense and listening to the desire of our award winning super to have a new administrative facility in the face of all this has me past limits. We are now at a point where we have qualified staff, the next step to improvement is...

If Rome is going to burn I will bring wieners and marshmallows and maybe we can toast some piggies as well. For those of you reading properly between the lines, there is and will be no betrayal of confidences in the above information. I will defend the good people who have confided in me to the end.

Garth, I appreciate your very honest comments. Its easy to see that you are a good man trying to do his best for our children.

Applause!
Applause!

I know that Nancy Routh has asked repeatedly for the amount spent per student at each school- all things included from number of teachers/assistants/books/special programs/federal money etc. I have never seen this talked about and bet she never got the answers, although as an elected official has every right to that information.

I believe Garth is correct, the majority of the board only gets to see what a few deem necessary. They make decisions on little or bad information and many of them are never in the schools; so they don't see real problems. I encourage each BOE member to volunteer 4 hours a month in a school-- not the glorious areas, but the office, the cafeteria, bus duty etc. See what is really happening.

Dr Grier is creative and forward thinking, but that doesn't take into account what is not getting done. The brightest of our children are being forgotten, their growth is non-existant, they are used as teachers assistants. When we start viewing each student as important regardless of color or income, when we work to challenge and enhance every students education, when we realize a public free education comes with responsibilities, when children can go to the bathroom without fear, when girls can walk down the hall without being groped, when parents realize they can make a difference then we should receive awards and recognition; not before.

debora,

we have to have the awards and recognition because a big bond vote is coming soon. people must be convinced that the school system is doing wonderful things so they'll pull the "yes" lever.

Garth,

How can parents stand up and demand that students that constantly disrupt and are a physical/verbal threat ..creating a hostile environment in our schools be removed from the campus permanently?

Parent:
Attend the School Climate Hearings, let your voices be heard, too many just move out or go private and it is hard to blame them with the direction our schools are heading. If we cater to those that disrupt, fight and show total disrespect for teachers and staff because it is their culture to do so, we have reinforced this as acceptable behavior. Our leadership shows this is where we want to head as a district, therfore without public outcry we will go there.

We must recognize that to regain control of our schools there will be a social cost. It begins with preschool and ends at High School, when teachers give respect they should get respect. Pandering to the macho - do not discipline a minority male because it is against their culture philosophy has dug a deep hole that has sucked discipline, pride and repect from the teaching profession and our schools. The cost to take it back will be increased suspensions for a period of time as well as possible increase in drop our rate, which should shortly reverse direction to a reduction in violence and drop out rates. should also increase performance at all levels.

You must organize, plan and implement, with a bond in the wings the Board might even listen. Good Luck!
Garth

I have attended a number of School Board meetings, both on attendance zones and other issues. One thing that I have always found enlightening (or actually, darkening) is that there NEVER is a discussion about curriculum, specifically, why children do not learn. My thesis, totally unproven, but I still believe correct, is that we need to TRAIN kids in elementary school in phonics, reading, spelling, penmanship, and math facts (that's DRILL) just like used to be the case. White kids, black kids, smart kids, dumb kids, kids whose parent spoke foreign languages, were ALL TRAINED THE SAME WAY. And most of them at least got to the point where they could handle basic jobs. The smart ones became the scientists that developed the nuclear bomb, landed men on the moon, and right out of the NY city schools, Colin Powell went on the West Point and became the almost-President. To even discuss high schools as dropout factories totally misses the point. The problem begins with a politically correct curriculum and lack of discipline in the elementary schools, and goes downhill from there. It is a shame and a tragedy that the School Board never discusses curriculum, expecting the "Doctors of Education" who have created the mess to fix it. This goes for the State Board of Education as well, because from what teachers have told me, a lot of this nonsense comes from Raleigh. One role for the School Board, as elected representatives of the people, is to challenge the dogmas of the the education "professionals" who clearly are not doing the job, and this includes the bureaucrats in Raleigh, not just the local minions. (I say all this from the vantage point of watching a child in GCS from K to 10th grade. The garbage that was put forth as basic education in elementary school was just that. Asking 4th graders to do "internet research" for Heaven's sake! And teaching African history before teaching American history! I wonder whether this engages black kids. It certainly disengages the white kids. Then, all of the sudden in high school, the curriculum shifts (back) to roughly what I remember from all too many years ago. Algebra, geometry, "hard" sciences, AP classes. The smart ones have a tougher time than they should, and the slow ones drop out.)

Attention Ragsdale and Jamestown Middle Parents:

I hope that you have watched the last 2 school board meetings. It appears that redistricting is knocking on your door.

There are 2 public forums planned for the week after Thanksgiving. I encourage you to attend and let the board know how you feel (not that they ever listen, but it will make you feel good that you tried).

Dot and Walter are looking for your children to be bused to Andrews and Welborn.

Garth, as an increasingly frustrated member of the GCS Construction Advisory Committee, I find your recent posts here encouraging. Hopefully they signal the beginning of a much needed transition from spin to substance, on many fronts. Attaboy!!!

anon,

Been there done that, but not Ragsdale. They will learn the hard way. Looks like Belton is taking the lead on this one.

Jeff Deal:

"Bobadilla said the district also had a citizens oversight committee made of auditors, maintenance and real estate experts, etc., who oversaw the building program. "

Do you know who is on this "oversight committee"? This is fantastic! Does anyone know the members of this committee? Who do they report to? We ought to have similar committee for District Finances to back up the wizard.

Normally the Board would be independent enough to provide oversight, but we still do not have last years audited financials. This by itself is a serious oversight. The Board while accountable to the people are kept in almost total darkness and led by the nose through streets of irrelevancy. No data is really presented to the Board, we get cute graphs and charts that few can translate into relevant facts. The real numbers and facts are obviously missing.

I do not suspect Dr. Zhang of falsehoods, I have it on good authority that he can only be pushed so far. Most people have thought he is not competent because of what he presents, this is not so. When your boss gives you direction it is your job to go there, but some are ethical and have limits. This comes to light clearly in the mishmash of presentation used to lead the Board down the proverbial path.

A year ago I used bus data of the GCS Web site and right before the meeting the night I presented the information, I was told the data was unreliable! If the leadership of this district is incapable of presenting data in a meaningful manner that a lightweight like me can comprehend, then they need a refresher course in presentation.

Rule number 1, make it clear enough so a 12 year old can understand it. I am tempted to give staff a huge leeway and bring my 13 year old to critique.

Rule number 2, provide methodology and data to support presentation.

Rule 3, presentation should be useful and conclusions obvious outcomes of material presented and provided.

We owe it to good people like our financial staff to provide meaningful oversight. Not the committee approach to construction type of oversight, but qualified, independent oversight offering staff a true place to report malfeasance attempts or unethical behavior in financial compliance that does not jeopardize their employment. Such a committee could also do the same for construction spending etc.. I have had on-site construction people come to me and explain how poorly planned our construction projects are in design and engineering and how much we could save if� Also how much we have been penalized and held up by job mismanagement etc. They ask I not say anything as they could loose employment.

Now Mr. Bobadilla knows of such a committee and I am greatly relieved. Such controls and oversight are supposed to provide a level of confidence in our institutions. I would like to know the members of these committees and hear their reports. I will bend over backwards to support, defend, apologize to and encourage good staff, yet I do expect a professional level of performance.

Garth

All:

In reference to disruptive students, I would suggest you look at Article 27A of GS 115C-397.1 entitled "Management and placement of disruptive students," the state law which addresses what can be done in each school to address this issue. Of course, GCS does none of it. Probably doesn't want anyone to know that this law is on the books.

Garth, the quote from Leo Bobadilla that you cite was from when we were asking him about how his former employer (Orange County FL Schools, which includes Orlando) approached the school construction process. He wasn't referring to any such committee within GCS (yet).

Jeff:

Thanks for correction...Mr. Bobadilla my apologies are sincere. Well, we probably don't need such a committee in our district anyways. We are way too cautious to have troubles...Smith Academy, 3 middle schools...oversight here would be a waste I am sure. I wonder if any reporters can get their hands on the actuuall costs and vendors on the Smith Academy project and how much under budget we are? This is not Leo's white elephant by the way.

Garth

We can look at 3rd and fourth grade reading scores and see exactly how many drop outs we will have and how many 17 year olds will be sitting in a 9th grade class and still reading at a 4th grade level.

We have children who are 2 grade levels behind in 4th grade and they get passed right along. We have to stop that and intervene like our lives depended on it. The cost to our society of these children who cannot read in 4th grade who will follow right along on the path to underachievement, drop-out, suspensions and ultimately death or prison is higher than a dollar amount.

What I am finding is a lack of cultural competence in school systems, in classrooms, and a lack of emotional mastery and behavioral management skills on the part of teachers and administrators. We do not have successful reading intervention programs at any level, elementary, middle or high school, and we have only a handful of adults at any school that have any training or competence in behavior management or conflict resolution. The result is children who cannot read, children with social and behavior problems, and no adult in the building who can help them with either.

It is unethical, and at least ineffective, to treat all children the same without regard to culture and/or gender. To treat all students the same is to teach competently to only ONE group of children at the expense of all the other children in the class.

Teachers and teacher educators tell me they have little or no training in cultural differences, best practices for different populations of children, or gender differences in learning. I think we are seeing the ill effects of this lack of training for our teachers.

If you look at the work of Dr. Leonard Sax, for example, regarding his research on gender differences in learning, and apply that same knowledge to teaching children from different culturals with regard to learning styles and behavioral norms, you can see that the research states that is it harmful to treat all children the same and to teach in only one style.

"However reluctant one may be to acknowledge the fact, it is none the less certain that the task of trying to educate everybody, which our public schools are engaged in, has proved to be far more difficult than the originators of the idea of such possibility thought it would be when they set out upon the undertaking." William Hawley Smith, All of the Children of All the People, 1923.

"Sit down, be quiet and perform" works for white female children. Look at the numbers of graduates and the number of female to male high achievers and college graduates in American schools. Boys are falling behind and African American children are falling behind. Sit down, be quiet and perform does not work for many chidren especially African American children and children who have social, emotional, or mental problems.

We have to change the way we do business. If we don't, it will end up costing us everything.

Terrina, So why does our current admin insist on putting all levels in the same class at the same time?

Griers philosophy has been dilute everyone away and have mediocre schools because everyone is being held back. What I mean by medocre is that you will have advanced leaners being held back and others not reaching their full potential. But if a school is mixed like this then the results can seem acceptable. This is Grier's and Dots "diversity model".

The other side to this would be a school full of AL kids excelling and another school doing poorly in comparison. The "poor" school would become a focus. Grier would be forced to fix it. He could not hide those kids away. With this model on an individual level and on a system level we might have a more sucessful school system! I think that mission possible is a step in the right direction but we need to stop the bussing along with it!

Terrina,

OK - so what happens to these kids after graduation? The ones who are allowed to misbehave simply because of their cultural differences? They don't get the good jobs.

Ask around.

I've got 2 applicants - one who "behaves" and performs up to society's professional expectations and the other applicant whom I should overlook his/her poor behavior because I should understand that he was brought up differently.

Do you really think anyone would hire the latter instead of the former?

This could be a long discertation, but to be concise, it is like this; If we were more culturally sensitive from day one, when little guys are in Kindergarten, and we are lining up curriculum and instruction style that is user-friendly and culturally sensitive and appropriate, these students would feel welcome, would take pride in learning, would develop relationships with the teachers and school staff, and would feel confident and competent. Then we build on that. If they can learn and be engaged early, they will be much less likely to dis-engage and become behavoir problems at school.

But when we are culturally insensitive from day one, they feel unwelcome and incompetent. And we build on that. They begin to react to the hostile and unwelcome environment and they start to fall off on achievement and competence. Look at the KIPP Academies. Those kids are African American, low income and have all the obstacles against them, but because of what they do in school, how they do it, and how teachers teach, they thrive. They also go to college.

There is a belief among white folks that the African Americans need to "fit into" the dominant culture. I think it is obvious, looking at national and local data, that this idea is not working. We have harmed black americans by dis-honoring their culture and their unique needs. We need to recognize the similarities, honor the differences and do what works for all the kids.

This does not have to be overwhelmingly overcomplicated and labor intensive. A one day training can teach a teacher about gender differences between boys and girls and how their brains process information. For example, it is not developmentally or age appropriate to have a 5 year old boy sit still and be quiet in Kindergarten. Some boys will be able to do this, but most won't and it is indeed slowing the learning of these boys to force them to sit down, be quiet, don't fidget and perform. Girls can do that, but most boys will struggle. However, if you allow the boys to STAND UP, and do their work, or even fidget or make a noise( oh my!) their brains will be online. If they are sitting still and being quiet, their brains shut off.

This same thing happens when we take people who value relationships and connection like African Americans and ask them to conform to the isolated, "look out for yourself" environment of most classrooms. Teachers have told me over and over that they do not have time to develop relationships with students. So if I tell you that the research says that unless you establish a relationship with African American students you will not teach them, they will not learn, and once they get behind, they will start to disrupt the whole class, and it was YOUR JOB to reach and teach those black students, would you find the time to establish a relationship?

The research says that if you have a relationship with children, especially African American students, they thrive! ( See Dr. James Comer and others)

But what if you had no idea that was an essential piece? And if you consider that this population has historically been oppressed, looked down on, and overtly and covertly discriminated against, ( and if you do not get this, read your history books) and you do not also know the history of this population in the public schools... you might really not realize the impact of your low expectations and the judgment you place on these kids who are not "like you" and do not "act like you". Like the boys who need to stand up to have their brains turned on, what if African American kids just need to be allowed to move around more, talk more and engage more in the classroom dialogue? Some white teachers see this as disrespectful and kids get sent to the office for talking out of turn and being dis-respectful. And so it begins...

Again, there is very brief and very specific cultural training and gender training that could make a big difference for the teachers, administrators and the students in the classroom.

I would not hire anyone who acted terribly or had bad manners. I do not believe we should look the other way when there is bad behavior or disruptions. But we could be doing better than we are in the beginning. We could have high expectations for black children in K-2 like we do white children. We could allow them to wiggle and squiggle a bit and still be welcomed and loved at school.

I bet that would make a big difference.

My child also complains that in his classes he is not allowed to talk. He is straight A, AL. He is bored at school! He asks to not go to school the next day every evening!

But, he goes and he conforms to the dominant culture (as you describe).

Why cant African American kids do the same? What is the African American culture? I was not born in the US and neither was my child. We are from South America but we learned to conform in this short time we have been here.We have adapted and made this culture our own but never forgetting our heritage. How long will it be that African Americans use the excuse that they have a different culture? How long will they be allowed to disrupt my childs education?

I have the same types of questions as Parent2. The dissertation given above states "We have harmed black americans by dis-honoring their culture".

What exactly is that culture - one that teaches non-conformity?

Why is it that the South American culture is able to assimilate here? Why is it that the Korean culture is able to assimilate here? Why is it that the Mexicans, Scandinavians, etc., etc. are able to assimilate here?

They move to this country - often not even speaking the language and, I guess, their "culture" must teach conformity, yet you say that we must treat the African American students differently?

Why?

What are the real reasons that they must be treated differently than all of the other cultures in this county?

Before the conversation gets off on the cultural/ethnic differences in our schools and all the many ways teachers don't deal well with them, I would suggest that everyone read the recent ETS study about homes being small schools. It was listed on the Friday Notes for Nov 2 . . . the last entry. The URL is http://www.ets.org/portal/site/ets/menuitem.3a88fea28f42ada7c6ce5a10c3921509/?vgnextoid=85b65784623f4010VgnVCM10000022f95190RCRD, or you can access it from the Friday Notes. This lengthy report agrees that schools can always be and do better, but also discusses what needs to be done in our neighborhoods and homes to get all students at a better starting and continuing place.

There was a large fight at Southern this morning - 12 girls were involved.

Should there be different discipline handed to each of the 12 based upon their "culture"?

Do I get an answer?

Parent 2,

Yes - you got your answer - it's the same one the board gives everyone at public comment -

DEAD SILENCE.

Oh my. I am not suggesting that we allow misbehavior in the classrooms. Being disruptive, abusive and infringing upon the rights of others is not part of being African American. Neither is fighting and beating each other up. I am suggesting that we look at this issue in the context of the history of our country over several hundred years and ask ourselves why might the African American children in 2007 be so behind, so violent and so unwelcome in our classrooms? If we all succeed together or fail together, might we not want to do our part while demanding the African American community do their part? But what is our part?

The African American community for several generations has been unseen, unheard, and unwelcome. Do you not suppose that that has changed who they are?

I am suggesting that because we have been culturally insensitive for hundreds of years, and at least for the last 75 years of public school history, we have impacted how African American children show up. We did not know alot of things we know now. Science is continuing to innovate and be able to quantify what we have believed in the past. Like we can use brain scans to show the regions of the brain that light up in different people and we can show how poverty, for example, can impact brain function. So has poverty and racism changed who some African Americans are? Probably.

So how can we change the system so that African Americans and all children can be clear to be who they really are versus what oppression and conformity has demanded they be?

This is not about blame or who is better or who is right. This is about where we are right now in our history. This is about what is going on right now with our kids at school. What would make a difference for all the kids? What would make a difference in educating all American school children so we can compete in the global ecomony? We are falling desperately behind. All of us.

The psychological research suggests that if we are not culturally competent, meaning we know the history of each different culture, the context of their experience historically, and the reasons for particular preferences and behaviors, we harm those we are charged with servicing or caring for. Culture can be defined as "membership in a socially constructed way of living, which incorporates collective values, beliefs, norms, boundaries, and lifestyles that are cocreated with others who share similar worldviews comprising biological, psychological, historical, psychological, and other factors." Having multicultural competence is defined as recognizing diversity and embracing approaches that support the worth, dignity, potential, and uniqueness of individuals within their historical, cultural, economic, political, and psychological contexts.

This does not include having the minority culture conform to the norms of the dominant culture. This suggests we make room for diverse cultures. In other words, "Just say no to cookie cutter conformity." It is harmful.

I am trying to suggest that we not judge the bad behavior of certain students through the lens of our own experience, our own culture, our own history, political and psychological contexts. If you are a white American, your cultural context is not the same as that of African Americans. If you are a teacher and you treat all children within the framework of your cultural context, it is likely to be harmful to a person from another cultural context. If you are a teacher and you treat all children the same you are harming some children.

To the person who asked about why her South American children can fit in... it is because of your cultural context. In your culture respecting the teacher is a bg deal and is part of your culture. Even more so than in the white culture. Latin cultures look at teachers in the same way as clergy. The teacher has the final say. That is why you will not see large numbers of Latino students acting disrespectful to a teacher.

If you all would come out, I can invite a wonderful speaker who is much better at explaining culture, cultural norms and the historical context of culture than I am. I can bring him here if you would all come.

What say ye?

Speaking as a South American I can assure you that we do not see our teachers as part of the clergy!

I still dont understand how my child learning the African American culture is going to stop African Americans from misbehaving. Indeed African American history is taught quite a lot in the schols here.

I guess I just dont understand your point. I respect your opinion and I am not being disrespectful to you but...

I dont see an answer here.

Our schools need a common culture, what ever that maybe and children need to respect it. All children, no matter what color or race. The problem is that we are allowing different behaviour in our schools because of this type of thinking. It sends mixed signals and it will confuse children and they will read it the way they want.

Education will not win and we will continue to slip further behind. Those that can will leave public education and it will get worse and worse.

Terrina,

If the "Latin culture" teaches respect for teachers and the "white culture" teaches respect for teachers, and the "Asian culture" teaches respect for teachers, maybe it's time that the "African American culture" teaches respect for teachers.

Parent 2:

We often pigeon hole perspective in this melting pot called the United States and this causes some problems greater than most realize. While many poorer areas of South America often recognize teachers in a reverent and honored way, many do not realize how often teachers were distrusted as well as purveyors’ of the “Norte Americano’s” lifestyle and many times the CIA.

So also we do the same within our own country. We often take a position espoused by a group of African Americans and assume all believe the same way. It is rubbish, a shallow view that causes more trouble than many can imagine. There is a great debate occurring in the African American community about empowerment. It is often at odds with many liberal view points, especially in the south.

What many in the south have yet to recognize as much of the immigration into this part of the country is from the north, the main focus of prejudice in the west is not African American/white which might actually be perceived as simple compared to the Hispanic/White/Black or the Asian/Asian/White/Hispanic/Black. In the South we are now addressing the same problems and issues addressed 20 years ago in the west. We are in a whiplash position dealing with both past, current and future issues melding into a debate/discussion/solution forum that many are still in the defining stages of the issues.

The Spanish enslavement and cultural conquest of the various Indian tribes/nations have created equally problematic cultural learning issues. We have a fast approaching world blending upon us where we have already seen whites upset that their kids cannot attend the predominantly Asian schools in Northern California. We find children from India, China, Slavic and other European nations as well as Vietnamese, African and other ethno/cultural origins all attending the predominantly African American schools in our county. We have a Diversity Officer in our schools that many pigeon hole as African American liaison/awareness person.

We have a very activist School Board member who fights quite effectively for a cause that is very controversial to many. Deena is quite effective at what she does and has my respect and appreciation. Many cry foul for self interest and reverse racism along with many other things, they have even tried to encourage me to go on the attack with her. Please realize that the School Board, while a being well paid elected position, does not attract professional politicians and foot in mouth disease is highly contagious among most people. Deena has a great sense of humor, is terribly smart and takes her cause quite seriously. We have standards of ethics in North Carolina that are legally binding and I trust her to adhere to them as we all must do. Do not judge others too quickly, some day you may find yourself liking them and suffer the pain and remorse imposed by you own conscience.

I have chosen the Chalkboard as a sounding Board, obviously not for lauditious comments, but for personal introspection and feedback from the public perception. My greatest critics may be my souls best friend. It is a relatively small public forum that is read by a topic restricted community of educated caring people. I am still growing up and dealing with the growth pains of one in deep waters foreign to my comfort and skill zone. At 50 I feel like a child in an adult conversation, constantly listening, learning and making mistakes like any child. My greatest fear is the damage I might cause our children through my ignorance, action or inaction. Please keep the dialogue going in the great direction it is now heading.

We have many great issues to address, I would rather address them as adults with all the facts and information possible not aiming for personal agenda, retribution or personal attacks. I realize the naiveté in the above, but set the mark for myself high and hope and pray we can lift the process away from the old GET TERRY GRIER OUTTA HERE, to one of how do we fix it so our children, all our children are best served.

Garth
GCS School Board District 2

Parent 2:

We often pigeon hole perspective in this melting pot called the United States and this causes some problems greater than most realize. While many poorer areas of South America often recognize teachers in a reverent and honored way, many do not realize how often teachers were distrusted as well as purveyors’ of the “Norte Americano’s” lifestyle and many times the CIA.

So also we do the same within our own country. We often take a position espoused by a group of African Americans and assume all believe the same way. It is rubbish, a shallow view that causes more trouble than many can imagine. There is a great debate occurring in the African American community about empowerment. It is often at odds with many liberal view points, especially in the south.

What many in the south have yet to recognize as much of the immigration into this part of the country is from the north, the main focus of prejudice in the west is not African American/white which might actually be perceived as simple compared to the Hispanic/White/Black or the Asian/Asian/White/Hispanic/Black. In the South we are now addressing the same problems and issues addressed 20 years ago in the west. We are in a whiplash position dealing with both past, current and future issues melding into a debate/discussion/solution forum that many are still in the defining stages of the issues.

The Spanish enslavement and cultural conquest of the various Indian tribes/nations have created equally problematic cultural learning issues. We have a fast approaching world blending upon us where we have already seen whites upset that their kids cannot attend the predominantly Asian schools in Northern California. We find children from India, China, Slavic and other European nations as well as Vietnamese, African and other ethno/cultural origins all attending the predominantly African American schools in our county. We have a Diversity Officer in our schools that many pigeon hole as African American liaison/awareness person.

We have a very activist School Board member who fights quite effectively for a cause that is very controversial to many. Deena is quite effective at what she does and has my respect and appreciation. Many cry foul for self interest and reverse racism along with many other things, they have even tried to encourage me to go on the attack with her. Please realize that the School Board, while being a well paid elected position, does not attract professional politicians and foot in mouth disease is highly contagious among most people. Deena has a great sense of humor, is terribly smart and takes her cause quite seriously. We have standards of ethics in North Carolina that are legally binding and I trust her to adhere to them as we all must do. Do not judge others too quickly, some day you may find yourself liking them and suffer the pain and remorse imposed by you own conscience.

I have chosen the Chalkboard as a sounding Board, obviously not for lauditious comments, but for personal introspection and feedback from the public perception. My greatest critics may be my souls best friend. It is a relatively small public forum that is read by a topic restricted community of educated caring people. I am still growing up and dealing with the growth pains of one in deep waters foreign to my comfort and skill zone. At 50 I feel like a child in an adult conversation, constantly listening, learning and making mistakes like any child. My greatest fear is the damage I might cause our children through my ignorance, action or inaction. Please keep the dialogue going in the great direction it is now heading.

We have many great issues to address, I would rather address them as adults with all the facts and information possible not aiming for personal agenda, retribution or personal attacks. I realize the naiveté in the above, but set the mark for myself high and hope and pray we can lift the process away from the old GET TERRY GRIER OUTTA HERE, to one of how do we fix it so our children, all our children are best served.

Garth
GCS School Board District 2

It amazes me how people try to tell me, A South American, how South Americans perceive teachers.

I think the conversation about culture and ethnicity is becoming a bit old. Unless someone can prove to me that there is a cultural or ethnic group in this country that raises their children to be disrespectful/ugly to their elders--whether teachers, parents, grandparents, or whatever--then the cultural difference argument becomes moot. I suspect that if we could turn some grandmothers of every culture/ethnicity we could find loose in our schools with heavy umbrellas and told them to smack any kid upside the head if they were being disrespectful ("fresh mouthed" is what they called it in my youth), I think they would cut right through the need to understand difference in culture or ethnicity . . . and we would have many kids holding their heads by the end of the day.

More germane to the discussion at this point, however, might be the realization that teachers and principals have only so many minutes in each day. Every minute either spends on an unpleasant or recalcitrant child is a minute that cannot be spent on something positive--like teaching a lesson or working with a teacher to improve instruction. I just don't think we can continue with the inefficiency of spending 95% of the time in every school on

So, what to do? And how to do it in such a way that each child gets what they need and deserve and the majority of students--who have never been a bit of trouble in their entire school career--definitely are not shunted aside for the few who just are not getting with the program.

My last comment left off "spending 95% of the time on

less than 5% of the students for it's not getting where we want or need to be in education.

I am glad to see this conversation occurring on The Chalkboard. I did want to add my perspective to this discussion as an educated, African American woman who grew up in a military family. As has been mentioned previously, one cannot lump all blacks into the same pot when it comes to cultural identity. Just take a look at this Washington Post report that was reported this week: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/13/AR2007111301831.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR

And is it really true that all whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc respect authority, in this case teachers? We all know that this is not the case. In fact, one can only make that statement when comparing statistics among ethnic/racial groups. Those other groups appear to be behaving better than blacks because statistically, blacks are more likely to be suspended, jailed, drop out, etc. Take blacks out and you're left to compare differences among the rest.

I also think we need to define what the word "respect" means and how respect is shown. Of course I speak in generalities to make a point, but people have and show respect toward authority figures based on both their race/cultural background, social class and upbringing. And acts of respect are largely socially defined. For example, I remember my senior year of high school, a white student in my AP Calculus class in his "last will and testament" willed a "pearl necklace" to our teacher. For those of you who don't know, that describes a vulgar sex act. When the teacher found out she was extremely upset, while many people laughed and thought it was clever (I believe the student was disciplined but I dont' remember how). Now was his act any less disrespectful than another student saying "get out of my face b*tch!" to a teacher in class? And is skipping the class of a teacher you can't stand more or less disrespectful than having perfect attendance but cracking jokes throughout class time?

I find discussions about fighting/violence very hypocritical at times. Among the very poor (and not just blacks), fighting is how respect/survival is achieved, because you can't exactly show your enemies up with possessions and fancy words. In the middle class, we believe in more sophisticated forms of hashing out our differences and when we can't do that, many of us have the luxury of just leaving the situation. At the same time, we are very obsessed with violence. We watch pro-wrestling and such, play violent video games, watch it in movies and on television, buy music containing it, engage in it in our own homes and on a global scale (war, anyone?), and joke about it. Is that a part of our shared culture we should be proud of?

The last half of my two cents: I spent the major part of my high school years in southern California so I can relate to some of what Mr. Hebert described about the west. There were gangs representing almost every racial group (I remember once standing outside on my high school campus near a fight between the "Chinese Mafia" and a Vietnamese-member gang. While I loved the diversity in California, it eventually got to my parents. They were used to the black-white dynamic in the South, of biracial couples still getting the evil eye, of knowing where you stood and if you were called a "n*gger" at least you weren't surprised (when I was a reporter in Gastonia I interviewed a guy who actually called a group of black people "n*ggers" to my face, caught himself and then said, "oh, but I'm not racist." I quickly concluded the interview. When I moved to Greensboro last year, I was here a month or two before I heard a white man say it at a festival). In the west, blacks are but one group and my parents weren't sure where they fit in and had not built up a trust of other racial groups.

To South American parent, it was not my intention to reduce your culture to one sentence. I hope you understand that, and will accept my apology. My intention was to continue the conversation so we can all learn and grow in an exchange among adults that helps the children in our schools.

I agree with you Morgan. Not all African Americans are disrespectful and not all Hispanics, Asians and Whites respect authority. I think it was the poster Terrina Picarello that drove the conversation in that direction.

Thats also true.

Amen, Morgan. Pigeon-holing along ethnic lines does nothing to foster our understanding of school violence. Neither does it advance our progress toward more effective strategies of dealing with that issue.

Vouchers!

Our only hope.

I really believe it.
The system is broken.

My goodness. It is not my intention to pigeon hole any ethnic group. How many people reading this blog have an education in multiculturalism? How many people have some level of competence with regard to the expericence and historical context of African Americans in the American South? My point is, we cannot treat everyone the same and expect a good outcome. My point is also that most people have NO EDUCATION or competence in multiculturalism.

My point is the American South has alot of problems that are self inflicted wounds that must be healed. When will the healing begin and the blaming and negativity end? Corporate people are leaving this area because of all this mess. Middle class people are not willing to sacrifice their children's education for the sake of the cause.

I apologize for not being articulate enough to express what I have learned about different cultures in a way that can be received. I feel I have been mis-understood, but that is my fault.

I am not excusing bad behavior, but there is a reason we are where we are.

God Bless the South.

Terrina, I think some of the initial responses to your post misinterpreted what you were saying. I didn't read your comment in that light. Rather I was responding to what Morgan had to say.

Regards!

Terrina, I appreciate your comments. I would ask you when do you think the process of healing will occur and what in real terms needs to be done to start it? I am ready to do my part.

"I am not excusing bad behavior, but there is a reason we are where we are"

Parenting or lack of.

It is that simple

Race,intelligence, what ever are not the issue.

Simple cause,complicated solution.

ditto to what David Colin has said

Boys following behind girls in school?? Look at the many boys who are exemplary students in elementary school but somewhere along the line grades are not at the top of the agenda. Sports? Partying? Girls? Hormones? Drugs: Perhaps we should look within. Once again, good parenting or lack thereof.

Ever read the personal birth records in Guilford County??? Notice the number of single parents. The pattern keeps repeating itself. Are these parents educated enough to help with homework? Do they have enough time to be an effective parent if they are a single, working parent? How many are still children themselves?

We are witnessing the symptoms in our schools, not the causes. If might not be able to cure the cause, but symptoms can only be treated as they are seen.

All cultures, ethnic groups, relitions, etc. should show teachers the respect they deserve. And if a teacher is not worthy of this respect, they should leave too.

We continue to see our public schools grow weaker as we loose too many good parent to public school. It's time to bring respect back in the classroom.