News-Record.com

While our EC is a huge succes, it is very expensive, as we (GC taxpayers) pay for these students to take college classes at a private school. How many students apply for EC that are qualified and then refused? Do we have aneed? Would it be cheaper to have this at UNCG if it could be worked out. HP is a great college, but with the tight economic times that we are having is now the right time to expand?

Not good.

It would put our IB program in danger!

Dont do it!

Sorry, I meant to say the IB program at Central.

HP Parent,

You assume the kids that take the IB at Central could get into an Early College. I bet 90% of them would not!
The IB at Central is to keep the Emorywood folks kids there and keep them out of Private school. In reality its just a school within a school.

There are plenty of chances for smart kids to take lots of AP classes in our traditional High High Schools.

What this does is take these kids out making it harder to justify AP classes in the traditional schools and also taking out the really good AP teachers.

In short, I am against it!

Instead of weaking the traditional schools, maintain and improve the AP programs that are already there.

The IB program at Central is good example. I have heard that there have been some occasions where the kids have had no teacher for a particular subject and have to teach themselves.

HPU is an excellent university. If they are willing to accommodate an "Early College" type school then GCS would be crazy to pass up the opportunity.

The original Early college at Guilford is a tremendous school and has given a good name to our system. Why not duplicate its success at HPU. The thought of our students having the chance to be affiliated with Nedo and HPU is phenomenal. I am curious if this is a rumor or speculation though. I thought it was given "no" when Grier enquired about it several years ago.

It's sad that some will have a negative attitude about adding another wonderful option for our high schoolers.

Maybe there should be some discussions about consolidating IB programs if there are some that fear it would be taking students away from those programs. We have several IB schools in our system.

While it's a great opportunity for some, Early College takes the best students from the school system. This just helps the curve for the famous "gap". It's always about the numbers, not about educating our children.

"Early college takes the best students from the school system" (quote above)

What? The Early college programs are still a part of the school system. No students are "taken" from the system.

These programs offer our over-achieving students an opportunity for a very rigorous curriculum. It is no different than offering our handicapped or under-achieving students a curriculum tailored for their specific needs.

Enough of the selfish talk that another Early college-type program will "ruin IB programs" or "take students away". Our students are not property. They are not here to "fix" schools or make schools appear "better". Our students deserve opportunities. I am thankful that our system has many different options for our High Schoolers.

The Early college schools are one thing that GCS is doing RIGHT. I hope this partnership with HPU is successful and is up and running very soon.

When you take the best students out of the general population and teach them seperately you pay a price. The students left do not have as many role models that are performing at the highest levels. How are low performing students to know what excellence is if they don't see it on a daily basis. Our overall scores for High School students are lower today than they were 15 years ago. The establishment of magnet schools helped some children but did not raise the level of achievement in the county. No net progress was made.

The Early College program is limited to 200 students, currently about 1% of our High School population. Admission is terribly competitive and classroom demands are extreme for High School. Scores show over 85% AP pass rate and a significant percentage of classes are AP. Juniors and Seniors attend Guilford College with GCS counselor support and this is at taxpayer expense. Freshman and Sophomores (50 of each) attend rigorous academic classes and meet most graduation requirements in 2 years.

Letters of recommendations from 3 teachers, 1 essay and fantastic grades get you into a pool of consideration. Another timed essay is also given with no preparation as to subject or prompt is also given to applicants in controlled environment. The Early College at Guilford is a writing intensive atmosphere with math requirements assuming at least Algebra I completion as it is not offered there. Calculus is offered to sophomores. In many ways we could not offer this type of rigor at a local High School and to duplicate this at High Point University would be an outstanding accomplishment.

This program would be cruel for the over-expecting parent to inflict on a child, it requires not only total buy in of the student, but a commitment to lots of homework and sacrifice of a lot of “free time” to explore the world socially.

Now for the negative – I entered college at 16 and have personal experiences both good and bad. I spent a lot of time with a 12 year old genius also at the college as we had more in common. Being a 15 year old swimming and Water Polo prodigy looses all meaning as a 16 year old college student, my accomplishment there, I made the team. Two years make a big difference at that age both physically and emotionally. Such an environment should only be considered with much trepidation.

Call me neutral on expansion of this program and the cost is what keeps me on the line, some do need such a program and were our IB programs truly for advanced learning and a real math/science academy in our portfolio I might make me think otherwise.

In answer to question of apply vs accepted it was 1 in 3 accepted last year, this year my guess would be 1 in 4 or 5.

OK.

What do you get from the EC that you can get in HS?
In a traditional school here in GC my son has passed 7 AP's until his Junior year and he is taking another 5 this year. I fully expect him to pass all 5. For a total of 12. His best friend took a similar curriculum at our school last year and started at Virginia Tech as a Sophomore. His grades gave him enough credits to completely jump the Freshmen year. Isnt that wonderful?

There is a group of 20 or so kids that are doing the same thing at the school. If the EC is expanded and these 20 go off there then what happens to the other 80 or so kids that are taking AP classes throughout the school? They still need to have the opportunity as well.In some AP classes we have 20, in other classes we have ten to a class. If you take out 20 students logic tells me that it will weaken our HS AP program and what for?

I think that the EC is good and I support it but I seriously worry about the robustness of the AP/IB programs in our traditional schools if it is expanded.

Its a question of cost and as another poster stated above we must make sure the other AP/IB programs are robust.

I say no expansion!

Thats a great comment!

Anonymous Poster from above:

PLEASE tell us which high school - I want my child there!

I meant to say Early College takes the best students from the general school population, not "the school system". I stand corrected. Joe S makes an excellent point. I wholeheartedly agree that students are not here to "fix" the schools. That job should start with the parents of the students, each student as an individual and our school leaders. Students who do not have a desire to learn should be out of the classroom.

Garth made some great points too. Early College is not for every smart student. One has to be able to handle giving up a lot of social activities that he or she would have in a traditional high school setting. Then there is the age gap of the sexes once the "high school" student starts taking classes with college students.

I too support an Early College but do we need another one? How much will this cost us?

Above all, we need to strengthen our AP and IB curriculums. And do we need to duplicate IB programs at Smith, Grimsley and Page?

Wouldn't one IB program for High Point and one (that is working) in Greensboro be enough?

Does anyone know enough about the IB process to know how or why 9th and 10th graders are allowed special assignment to a school based on a program for 11th and 12th graders? There’s no “pre-IB” testing or anything like that for VSN programs in elementary or middle schools are there?

I like the question posed above.

If smart kids can take 12 AP's in traditional High Schools they they are getting what the need in my mind.

Just what does the Early College offer better than that?

I agree with many of the posts here and I dont agree with another Early College!

Let's definitely get rid of the one early college that we have. How unfair these kids are being sent across town when they should be back at their feeder school teaching thugs how to behave. Let's use these kids to our best advantage. To hell with what they need, let's use them.

Along this same thinking, Lincoln AL Academy should also be dissovolved. How insensitive that a system would take smart kids to the side and teach them! These kids need to be back in their neighborhood school to make the teacher's job easier. And like Joe said, where will the "good" role models come from from ?

GCS. We use and abuse you kids. Come on over and donate your child!

As I noted, AP is the norm at Early College, not considered advanced. I would prefer that we offered an adaptation of Early College at every “traditional” High school in the County, it would be possible and could be done much less expensively. Can it be done now? No, I do not believe we have the culture or commitment to pull it off at this time. I do believe that we might actually be heading in the right direction to be able to pull such a great achievement off in the future, say 2 years.

It would be a death knell to the current IB magnet program in my view, but if done properly would improve academics district wide. I am seeing a better atmosphere among staff in general, an improved desire for real academic improvement and this help being able to pull it off.

FYI I value and appreciate the feedback found here and have no malice to those critical of my views as it causes a true deliberation of the issues in my thought process. I appreciate the public’s tolerance of my presence on this blog and hope it doesn’t detract.

Garth

Garth,

WE LOVE YOU!!!!

Thank you!!!

It speaks volumes that you are the only consistent contributor to this blog (among the school board).

Garth two questions:

Please explain this comment:

"As I noted, AP is the norm at Early College, not considered advanced".

Now, What do you mean by this coment?

"I would prefer that we offered an adaptation of Early College at every “traditional” High school in the County".

I ask the second question because I do believe that there are plenty of Ap classes in our traditional schools. Look at the example above where some kid passed enough AP's to skip his freshmen year.
There are many more examples of this.

What else do you want from the traditiional schools. I dont think we need more opportunities there I think we need more quality!

Hey,
Another selfish view, You are being a little ridiculous.

The question is what cant an extremely smart kid get at a Traditional High School?

Lets compare my daughter who stayed at her local school and will finish with 11AP's and a ticket to Harvard to an Early College kid. Also, several of my daughters friends are going to Wake, and UNC. What would have become of them if they had gone to Early College? My guess not much different so why spend all that money?

Why?

Yes, I think there are traditional high schools that offer plenty of AP classes for their students but the same number and type of AP classes are not offered at every traditional high school. If your child is lucky enough to attend a high school that has a large number of these AP classes, that is great.

Unfortunately, some of our high schools do not have the ability to offer these kinds of classes to their students. For those schools, a high school like the Early College at Guilford is a wonderful opportunity for them.

I think the EC at G offers more than just rigorous classes. For many of these kids, it is a chance for them to thrive in a environment with peers like themselves. I have talked to parents who told me their kids did not feel like they fit in at a traditional high school but love it at the EC at G.

For whatever reason kids apply to the EC at G, I think it is great that we have this school for them and would support another one at HPU.

You can take the same AP courses at HS too!

Nobody can explain what is the great advantage is of going to Early College?

For a smart kid I maintain the end result is the same.

This direction will eliminate AP courses from our local High Schools.

What if you child is a late developer?

What happens is that he/she is screwed@!
Too late to go to EC in the junior year.

It will mean a dumbing down of the local High Schools!

These colleges are the dumbing down of our High Schools.

I am totally against it! It will mean.

For Traditional HS and their children it will mean:

Less top teachers.
No room for late developers.
Reduction in the number of challenging courses

Its just another gimmick for Guilford County public relations.

There is no reason that a advanced children cannot be challenged in the traditional High schools!

The problem with all of this is the county’s push to enroll more kids in AP courses. A vast majority of the kids in AP courses aren’t prepared to take what should be a true Advanced Placement course. Look at the statistics presented in Mo’s new Strategic Plan:

"I.K The percentage of students taking Advanced Placement (AP) courses will increase by 6 percentage points, and the overall passing rate will increase by 6 percentage points. (70 percent take AP courses and 44 percent pass AP exams as of the 2007-08 school year.)"

Our goals themselves tell you our kids aren’t prepared. We want to increase our passing rate from 44%-50%? 50%? Seriously??

It would be interesting to know what the passing rate is at just the EC. I would presume it to be much higher than 44% or even 50%.

I was a victim of this same situation when I was in high school in the late 90's (not GCS). We were only offered a small number of AP courses and about half the students in those courses had no business being in there. What happened was that the teachers had to worry about maintaining passing grades in their classes and appeasing parents and ended up dumbing down the course and not preparing us for the exam.

I turned out ok, went to Duke University and graduated with a degree in History with a Religion minor. But, with zero AP credits which meant I had to attend Duke an extra summer to graduate (a normal course load with 8 semesters left you 2 courses short of the graduation requirements)

The reasoning behind AP courses is that they should replace a college course. Unfortunately, a high school teacher, in a regular high school setting isn’t afforded the same leeway as a college professor. A college doesn’t care if you pass a class or not. They don’t have to provide “free and equal” education to anyone.

This isn’t just an AP problem. How exactly are CP courses “College Prep” and Honors “Honors” when CP won’t even get you into most colleges? Take the same concept and pushes by the county to 8th grade Algebra 1. I know--old regime, but still the same thought process. How many of our kids in 8th grade pass Algebra 1?

About 40%.

Sorry for the novel.

In traditional High Schools Freshman and Sophomores do not normally take AP courses, it is the norm at Early College. Some honors classes are offered at EC, but AP is strongly encouraged and for most part expected, this is a stark contrast to our traditional High School program. Junior and Senior classes are in the college classroom.

I am in the unenviable position of biting my tongue with the next comments, but alas some AP and IB offerings in the county are terribly weak and the pass rates reflect this. We have virtually forced some students into AP environment causing distractions and frustration where it was not needed. Yes, we do have a couple of schools that are performing at the national average or even a little better with quality AP offerings. Instead of this being the exception it should be our goal to make it the rule.

The Early College takes about 4 kids from each High School (no allocation) for each grade, if you want to make the argument that this takes something significant away from these schools you are missing much of the picture. Many of these kids are so far advanced for their age in so many ways that in a real way they can be a detriment to their peer group and fitting in is often very difficult and frustrating for them.

Having said all the above, please do not take my points as other than discussion, I am not sold on Early College in its current format but I do see both sides and sit with a scale in one hand and book in the other pondering the solution if any exists. With appreciation, Garth

Well said VICTIM, thanks.

For Anon with kind comments, several Board Members have tried posting and have been viscously trashed. Real people have real feelings and there are many viewpoints on the Board, they will be back. Most are not as willing to let their opinions be run over and mocked as I appear to be, that probably makes them more human than I, probably a good quality for those in the kid business.

Again, thanks

also 8:38 am posted anon off my sons computer

You cant water down an AP subject.

Its a College Board curriculum and test.
What you can have is:
1) A bad teacher and
2) A child that is not ready for it.

Victim,

You didnt pass your AP's but you got into Duke.

What does that tell us? It tells me that you werent prepared for AP's but Duke were impressed that you had pushed yourself and tried.

I think that is the theory behind GC's strategy.

So now you dont want to give other kids the same opportunity?

Garth,
Viscously trashed?

Who, when where?

I have never seen a board member get trashed on here.

Everytime Amos posts people are polite and grateful. Same for Paul Daniels.

Who else has posted? belton every now and again? Was he trashed, maybe a lttle. I cant remember.

The only board members I could think of who would get trashed would be Kearns or Mendenhall. But they would not dare post.

A lot of kids in this County pass Algebra 1 in 8th grade.

Sadly there are some schools that have better AP pass rates. A lot of reasons justify this, but far more complicated is the issue itself. Is it better to offer the opportunity and allow failure rates that are unacceptable and take away motivation by many, or is it better to not offer these opportunities to fail/succeed? Too much failure can destroy many peoples motivation and cause long term or permanent damage in learning process. Few will keep plugging at it after several failures and most kids realize that some teachers ill prepare them and decide to skip it.

My arm tires holding the scale weighing the issue and I begin to believe that maybe the wrong issue is being weighed. Is the issue opportunity, fear of failure, cost or just plain groping in the dark? I am having this very same ongoing conversation with my 14 year old and let me tell you it is difficult communicating these issues with his perspective as he fears no failure. Are my adult eyes blinding me?

People, lets put this into persepctive.

6% of GC children take IB or AP tests.

I dont think that is too absurd.

Just over 40% of EC kids.

The thing that gets me is that many people come onto this blog and complain about that their children are not being challenged.

Then the minute GC starts to do something to push kids the moaners jump on the band wagon and complain about it.

I dont get it!

The correct issue is your point Garth

"Few will keep plugging at it after several failures and most kids realize that some teachers ill prepare them and decide to skip it".

Its a fact that there are many teachers that are not prepared to teach AP/IB and maybe that is the reason for some of the kids failing.

The money for another early college would be better spent on the teachers!

I vote NO to another EC at HPU.

Anonymous

Thank goodness you don't get a vote.

School systems all over the country are replicating the wonderful program at Guilford College. It is "NCs first Early College" and we should be proud. To think we could have 2 such programs is twice as sweet.

Anonymous

Thank goodness you don't get a vote.

School systems all over the country are replicating the wonderful program at Guilford College. It is "NCs first Early College" and we should be proud. To think we could have 2 such programs is twice as sweet.

Anonymous

Thank goodness you don't get a vote.

School systems all over the country are replicating the wonderful program at Guilford College. It is "NCs first Early College" and we should be proud. To think we could have 2 such programs is twice as sweet.

I support too but where is the money come from?

At this point other schools dont ahve supplies and teachers.

I'd vote with an enthusiastic "yes" for Early college at HPU even though my children would most likely not qualify. We, as a community, need to offer the best opportunities we can to the students in our district. It might not be my kid or your kid this time, but maybe the next innovative program will be the perfect fit for their interests and talents.

Most of the negative comments above smack of the "it's not fair" mentality that is so prevalent in society today. I would be thrilled to see young people from our city and county benefit from a top-notch program, and the relationship with HPU can only strengthen what we currently have.

I have two children at the Early College this year, a senior and a freshman. For my senior, this is her third high school. After sophomore year, she left her districted school, feeling unhappy and unchallenged. She applied to Early College at Guilford, but since the classes were full, she was not accepted. She attended a private school for her junior year, and while the program was more challenging, the climate for her was not a good fit. Thankfully, she did get into ECG for her senior year, and she will tell you that it is an amazing place to learn. She has met with much success academically, is involved with two research projects with teachers, and looks forward to going to school now. Thank you to Guilford County Schools for providing alternatives to students who for one reason or another are not finding a good fit in their traditional schools. My younger child, a freshman this year, has been in VSN since she was in third grade. While she is studying and working harder than she ever has in her life, she will tell everyone that she loves her school. It has been my observation that the small number of students at ECG provides a setting where kids feel free to express themselves. All of the teachers, administrators and staff members know the students. It is a very different environment than our enormous mega-high schools, which, I believe have gotten to be too large to manage, both from a staffing point of view and a student-centered point of view.

If Guilford County can offer another Early College opportunity at High Point University for
kids, then I say hurray. ECG cannot get any bigger than it is right now due to contractual constraints, and I know that there were some disappointed students last year.

We are so unbelievably lucky in Greensboro to have so many different opportunities for our children. Many prefer the traditional path in their education, but for those kids that need something different, we have some choices.
I for one am thankful that we chose Greensboro as the place to raise our children. I think a forward-thinking school system is a very important factor in where people choose to relocate.

The ECG program provides a tremendously valuable high school option for kids in this county. The program-- and high school in general--is about so much more than just AP classes or college credits. ECG is a unique learning environment that distinctly supports the needs of its students that cannot be delivered in any traditional high school structure, in or out of GCS.

ECG's unique learning environment is exactly why the concern about drawing away the county's top learners is unfounded. There are plenty of students in our high schools with outstanding academic credentials who will not even consider the ECG option. Why? Many want the traditional high school experience that is certainly not available at ECG. Others feel their student's academic, extra curricular, and social needs are better met at their districted schools where friends and neighbors go. Still others determine that the IB curriculum or other magnet options are the best choices for their students' goals and needs.

ECG is not the right option for many, many students. But for those who do thrive in the program, it is absolutely the right choice. The demand for the program clearly supports GCS's ingenuity in creating ECG. The program's success obviously signifies that the kids who choose ECG are getting what they need to live up to their potential. Isn't that what we should want as a community? And if ECG also gets our county and school system some good PR, we should certainly be glad of that, too.

For those who are against the EC program I would wonder if you have ever known a child like those who attend this school? They are different. For the most part they have not, and will not fit into the traditional school. And by the way, "fitting in" is not the same as thriving. Is that all we are supposed to strive for, just fitting in? I want to see them have the chance to soar! Ironically, the same arguments could be made for disbanding Gateway. It's very expensive to operate and those kids could be forced into the regular classroom too. Most of them would "fit in". But, is that what we want?? Would that be best for them? Having special needs students in the classroom helps teach the non-disabled kids a lot about respect, adversity and courage. But, that regular classroom is not best for most of those students. I strongly support Gateway and all it does for the students who go there. Some disabled students "choose" the regular classroom, it's not our place to force that on them. EC is no different. Should those students be forced to attend a regular high school because we "want smart kids in the classroom to help teach others to strive harder"? Just like a special needs child, A highly gifted student may need an alternate environment to reach their potential. And the EC program, (just like the Gateway), should be encouraged.

Point of clarification: I didn’t take the AP exams because I had the metacognitive awareness to evaluate my level of preparedness. I

’m pretty confident that being 3rd in my graduating class, a high GPA, a high SAT score, being a Coca Cola Scholar, Student Body President, Beta Club Vice-President, 3 sport Varsity Letterman, and community service involvement may have contributed quite a bit more to my acceptance at Duke than the 3 AP courses offered by my school.

The B was in keyboarding/typing my freshman year, and yes, I’m still bitter.

By "The B," I mean the only one I made in High School.

Folks,

WHO WILL PAY FOR ANOTHER EC?

You know who? It will come from traditional schools.

The smart kids that could, but do not want to go to EC will pay and their school get dumbed down as AP courses begin to not be offered and even when they are they are taught by less qualified teachers.

There are many, many really smart kids in our Trad HS's that could go there but chose not. and these are the kids in the end who will ultimately pay.

Lets see the cost of educating at the current EC. Lets see the cost of the new one and lets see what is being eliminated to pay for it.

Lets also see a robust plan to improve AP/IB teachers and teaching in the traditional schools and lets see the cost of this too.

Only then can we make a decision!

Who will pay the price for not enriching the minds of our future?

For those of you that put wallets and egos before kids, ask yourself that. I would pay out of my own pocket if this opportunity could be available to my child! Before we selfishly rule out another Early High School at HPU, let's ask ourselves what we're really afraid of? I think many posters here are simply ignorant of the needs of this type of student. I use the word "ignorant" with all due repspect and mean it in the sense that many of you have never visited or even know a child in this program or understand the type of student that thrives in this setting.

I'm applauding the posts above of the Early College supporters. Whether or not you have kids that would attend, it's the right thing to do.

I doubt my child would ever be qualified to attend but that doesn't mean I would wish it away for others. Shame on those of you who would deny this small group of kids a chance to learn among their peers.

Hell, I can't even learn to use the spell check on my computer. Thank God there are smart kids that want to go above and beyond to invent and manage our future. I seriously think we need to consider the needs of ALL of our students. They are a precious commodity.

Let's put our selfishness aside and give our kids a great school system with many options.

I applaud our new superintendent for coming in and seeing the needs of our students. I think HPU said no to Terry Greer. We should really stand back and let Moe steer our system back on track.

The fact that HPU is showing some interest in working with GCS for the development of an additional early college program is exciting.

I'd like to make a few points and underscore some of the points others have already made.

I have taught many children who are now attending or the Early College at Guilford, and some who have graduated from the college and are well-adjusted tax paying citizens. When I have visited ECG, the students are active and very engaged. These children have the kind of minds that are driven by a quest for knowledge. They want to learn as much as they can learn. To force them to attend a pep rally, or have them have to spend precious time decorating the teachers door for the holidays is a huge waste of time. They are driven to learn---they do not want to spend time trying to apply make-up or spend hours at South Point Mall going through the right t-shirts and jeans at any of the many choice stores down there. They don't want to feel the pressure to conform socially because they are passionate about reading, writing, discovering, experimenting. They'd much prefer a compliment about finding a unique slant in their critique of "The Wasteland" than be told that their new hair cut becomes them.

Not all qualified students with an interest in attending a non-traditional high school like ECG are accepted. Those who are not may choose to go back to their home school or opt for private school. A few will choose one of the magnet programs where they will be guaranteed at least a few non-traditional peers.

Depending on which survey you read, you can discern that about 20% of high school drop outs are gifted--some quite highly gifted. A few of these students will never get a diploma. Some will start businesses of their own or go to college while the remainder will languish in underachievement for the rest of their lives.

I have taught in several different schools in several different settings. My most recent principal insisted I "dumb down" what I was offering not only in my classroom, but what I assigned for enrichment. He told me that what II did for the gifted students was too different from what the other students were learning. He did not want these highly gifted students to be offered an accelerated, enriched curriculum and told me as much.

Unless you have a gifted child or have experiences with a gifted child, it is hard to imagine that a twelve or thirteen child can possess a level of intellectual development that is already superior to about 85% of the adult population.

We have neglected this group long enough. We devote many resources to trying to bring children who are below grade level in reading or math up to grade level. We push, push, push them. Our intellectually gifted students deserve opportunities to excel in a group of their peers.

You can bet that if these children were attending school in Japan, China, Saudi Arabia, or many other nations, there would be little debate about offering their brightest students an appropriate education. They polish their national treasures.

This does not relieve us of our responsibility to provide a quality education to all our students wherever their abilities and interests lie. Dr. Grier created several unique magnet programs as well as high schools with a focus on such things as the performing arts or entertainment technology. No doubt these special opportunities will help students find a niche which should result in better prepared post high school students or workers.

With regard to AP in home high schools, hopefully, teachers who are passionate about teaching be it physics or American History, will be the ones who are teaching it. However, in some schools, the opportunity to teach an AP class is seen as a tremendous burden because of all the preparation and additional grading involved. If there are many students who are not prepared to do the work, then that multiplies the amount of work the teacher must do.

One final point. Most of the writers on this blog get this, but as I read through the posts, it appeared that some people confuse AP and IB as I did when I first came to this system. IB is a program. AP refers to advanced placement classes. To enroll in IB, a student must attend Smith, Page, or Grimsley, the three schools in this county that have IB programs. IB requires that students take a certain number of AP classes and pass them at a certain standard. If a student does that, he or she will be awarded an International Baccalaureate diploma. Earning this document, a student demonstrates a high level of proficiency---at the international level.

Preparation for this kind of demanding academic rigor does not start in the ninth grade. It begins in the home, and later in the elementary school. We really need to target the fourth and fifth grade with a plethora of academic stimulation. This is where the blue birds and the yellow birds tend to separate themselves.

Well said fiver,

Well said Fiver,

Also, just for the record there is another IB program at High Point Central. Do we need this many? I think we could save a lot of money by consolidating these 4 programs. If we had 4 Early colleges people here would be going nuts. Do we need FOUR of any program? Surely these programs aren't so full that we need 4.

Also, in my opinion, the yellow birds and bluebirds show themselves much, much earlier. Some of our little birds are reading at 3 and 4. This is the time to catch these birds and start the polishing.

I love this quote: " They polish their national treasures." We should take notice and follow.

Mama bird said:

Do we need FOUR of any program?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If there is enough interest to fill 4, then we need 4 and should be prepared to open a 5th. Ditto for any other program.

I'm thrilled that GCS recognizes that students learn best in different environments, and is taking steps to give us a variety from which to choose. They seem to have a progressive understanding of how older students learn best.

My daughter is currently in elementary school and we spend quite a bit of time and energy supplementing her education so that she stays motivated and engaged. I hope that when she gets to middle and high school, there will be a "just right" program for her and we will have the wisdom to find it.

We need to get beyond the DMV-like school settings.

Lisa,

You might want to look at how many students are enrolled in each of the 4 programs and more importantly, you might want to look at the passing rate of the kids taking the IB and AP courses at these IB schools.

As an example, I think the passing rate at Smith High School is less than 10%.

Do you still think we need to keep adding them????

So, Lets kill two of the IB programs and increase add one Early college.

Two of each and we spend the same amount of money or less.

Probably increase enrollment too.

sounds good to me ...

Now you all are on to something. DECREASE the programs that are NOT working, REPLICATE those that ARE working. This makes sense and surely, for what we pay our top administrators, they see this too.

Reality Break Please….

I have learned that we do not have to make sense, we are a School Board after all and that means politics and government and waste and…

But it is nice to know that some people still use common sense, I am just stuck in a different reality for a couple more years.

No Garth, you are there to smack some sense into them when they get off track. Keep it up!

What I'd like to know is, will they draw a line down the middle of the county if they had two Early college high schools. Would it be a "if you live in Greensboro, you can only apply to Guilford, and if you live in High Point you can only apply to HPU"? Is that what they would want to do? I hope not. I hope (should this all work out with HPU) that students could apply to either, no matter where they live.

due to the cost of busing it would make more sense to divide the county like they do for IB programs. We have to start being more responsible with our money and we spend a bunch on magnet school transportation. I would say probably twice as much (hey, Garth you ever see this cost, I think it was asked for about 2 years ago) as a regular school student.
If the programs are the same, why would it matter if there are districts? We divided for Montessori, Scale, IB etc... my bet is that will continure

EC's at Guilford and HPU are great, but they're both far removed from those in the eastern third/half of the county, not to mention that they're both largely liberal arts institutions. What about an EC at A&T for the kids who are interested in engineering or agriculture (I know they have a middle college, but I sense those target a different constituency); with all the talk of renewable energy, agriculture should prove to be one of the next hot careers that I believe is currently only taught at Southern. While also primarily liberal arts oriented, Elon could also be an option.

Deborah,

High Point has historically gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to magnet programs. Triangle Lake is nowhere near the Montessori school in Greensboro, Weaver is light years ahead of Penn Griffin, etc. That was one of the reasons why High Point parents did NOT want to get an AL program here.

Now that Nido Quebein is at HPU, I can't imagine it would be anything but successful. I think most High Point parents would take a chance on this one.

Given that the students selected for early college are all that advanced ( and I don't doubt it for a minute ).

How did the school make the Newsweek list?
They should not have been considered ( since they are a very selective school ).

The only thing I can figure is the school did not tell Newsweek the truth. Thus getting some free PR for school rating.

The school systems strategic presentation made a big point of the fact that the Weaver and Early College senior classes graduated 100% of their students.

For our system to take credit for these kids genes is absurd..Early College did not make these kids. They made Early College.

These kids would do well despite our school systems short comings. The real issue is could more marginal/average kids education be a better use of the funds.

If your interested look up August Wilson.
High School Drop out, A real example of being poor and being extremely gifted.

Now I'm not saying gifted kids should drop out.
But a college education at GCS expense?

Also look at the percent of minorities in the county and the percent at early college. Normal distributions don't work that way. If there are 40% to 50% minorities and low income the school should reflect that. Not because of equal opportunity but because it must be so. If we can't find them we are not looking correctly. The school has 10% minority. You tell me..

Yet if you can play a sport you get a full scholarship
to major in basket weaving.
.
Shame on us.

Also how many students don't get accepted to Guilford after the tenth grade? Obviously they don't all make it in.

How much do we pay the college for the students that get in?

Oh good grief Colin, give it a break. You hi-jacked a thread already about this topic and calledl everyone liars already, over this Newsweek article. Why don't you call Newsweek and iron that all out with them. I for one cannot hear your whining again.

If we are turning qualified students away from EC because of lack of spots and are turning enough away to fill another school...I say do it for those students......Their needs should be met.

However....
I agree with David's point...the kids can make the school....

If the teachers did nothing, these kids would do well on all regular standards and measurements?

So how do we measure the effectiveness of this teacher and the school? What is the growth rate of this student from the time they entered until they leave? Maybe the students should rate the school and teachers. They know if they are learning anything from this administrator.

For give it a break. ( No Name )

First. Mr Colin to you.

Second.I have, Newsweek agreed.

Third. I think what I have said was relevent to more
Early College like schools. No thread break here.

Have a blessed day

We are about to come into a very disconcerting situation requiring a total rethink of resource allocation. Our performing and almost performing schools have almost no resources allocated to them and shortly we will see serious cuts having to be made. Currently average class size in some of our High Schools is almost twice that of others. Waivers are granted by the state to allow this, but at some point we reach other legal maximums (or already have reached) at these schools. We must then find ways to cope with the issue. One way is to cut programs, another to increase class size average at poorer schools. Either way we a going to be forced to address this reality and attempting to expand expensive programs is not likely.

What is likely, we must find practical, innovative ways to improve the classroom environment to allow larger class sizes to succeed in our impacted schools and improve basic academic performance at all levels with more effective teachers and resources in all our classrooms. Mo Green does not translate into “more green”, it must translate into “more effective green”. These are tough times and will require real tough decision making not wining about no money therefore we will fail. Now is the time where real leadership will show through. Scape-goating the money just means we are not willing to deal with reality and admit defeat without a real fight.

Whining - not wining, though might be same to some, I goofed.

Mr. Garth

Certainly we can't afford another Early College.
No matter how good the kids are.

How much do we pay Guilford College?

What is our cost per student average overall..

What is it at Early College

Thanks

Why do we spend money on these programs?
Several are still failing these students...

GTCC middle college
A&T Middle College
Bennett Middle college
Twilight Academy
Newcomers School
After-school tutorial's carrying 1 or 3 students home on a bus that would hold 40.

After school tutorials should be the first program cut......I am tired of seeing full size buses going by my house at 6:00 at night with one student on the bus every Tuesday and Thursday and usually because they have to make=up time from skipping class in the first place. This is the biggest waste of money in Guilford county. students are not taking advantage of the opportunity and teachers do not tutor...they just babysit.

I know some people that had their kids go to the Newcomers school. I hate to say it (because it was Grier's idea) but it seems to be really good. These kids came to the US not speaking English. After six months they were like normal kids happily integrated into Grimsley.

However, I do think that real questions need to be asked about:

GTCC middle college
A&T Middle College
Bennett Middle college
The Academy at High Poiint Central

The kids at these schools consistently fail.

to Jan. 30, 5:51 p.m. Anonymous regarding AP classes and Duke.

Schools like Duke and Wake Forest only take 4s and 5s for AP credit to their schools. Others take 3s and give you credit. Also if you have a 4 or 5, Duke only gives you "credit" in the way of letting you take the next advanced course and lets you skip a course. Wake gives you actual credit for 4s and 5s. Also Duke does not give credit for a 5 on an AP World History exam; Wake gives you credit for AP World History. In other words, it depends on the university, if they accept 3s, or only 4s and 5s and what particular AP classes they accept.

My daughter was accepted into Duke (up for the Trinity); Wake; Carolina and State. She received great scholarship packages from each, but chose Wake because it was private, smaller and a good "fit" for her. She had a semester of AP credits there. She would have started Carolina or State as a Sophomore. Even though she had many 4s and 5s, Duke would only count some of the AP courses and give you the "privilege" of taking a higher level course.

She has friends who chose Early College who are her same age. (They all graduated Early College in 2007 while she graduated Valedictorian from SWH.)They are graduating this year from Carolina and starting their Masters next year. They are only 19 and 20 years old.

Early College is not for everyone. You need to consider the social ramifications and do you want to graduate be going for your Masters at age 20?