News-Record.com

Apparently they passed because the majority of Guilford County residents have money to burn and were misinformed. If they think they school board will actually be productive with that money they'd better think again. If the Eastern Guilford bond hadn't passed they would still build a new school there. Like I said, apparently people have money to burn. With the inflating economy and fuel prices, higher taxes are the last thing I need. I guess we should all bend over and get ready to watch our county tax rate spike several hundred dollars over the next few years. Who can honestly, in good conscience, vote for the county/school board to get these loans without even knowing who they are from or what the interest on them is?

At least Billy Yow won.

They passed because many voters don't know that these are new taxes on homeowners. They skim the paragraph and see "Bond for schools..." and think well, bonds are great, hey "stocks and bonds," nothing wrong with that.
The city should be FORCED to word these "bond referenda" as follows:
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A new tax in addition to all current taxes will be added to homeowners and landowners in Guilford Country, to pay $_____ million. The purpose of this new tax is _____. The city would use a bond to finance this project and tax homeowners and landowners to pay back the bond.
-----------------
That would be the TRUTH.

It is irresponsible of the city to tack on ridiculous high tax tricks to homeowners in the midst of a MORTGAGE crisis. The owner of a $200k home will pay over $1000 in NEW taxes into their escrow account over the next 5 years because of last night's vote. This will accelerate forclosures and seriously deepen the mortgage crisis in our city. Great job, city leaders.

I think people just aren't paying attention to the wasteful spending on schools and the fact that this vote results in major tax hikes. Better buildings and more money thrown in the direction of education does not necessarily result in better-educated students. It results only in people who deal with the school system having more money and the taxpayers having substantially less money to spend on necessary expenditures. We are saddling the kids we're supposed be helping with huge amounts of debt to be paid off in the future.

The reason these bonds passed is simple. People who don't own property and/or don't pay taxes helped make the decision on how the rest of us will pay through the nose for years to come. People who don't own property and/or pay taxes should NOT be allowed to vote on issues that involve tax increases, period.

I agree ...only those affected by the tax increase should be allowed to vote on them....

I agree with Blu Wednesday. People who don't own property would vote a lot different on bonds the they had to pay property taxes. Also Greensboro has a bunch of idiots who live in this declining town, who do not understand that bonds means higher taxes. They think bonds are free. They are too stupid to understand bonds have to be paid for somehow.

The people who voted for the new bonds saw that it was better to pay a little every year for new schools than to get hit with a 20 cent tax for Eastern during one year, and another 20-40 cent tax for each project during subsequent years. We need the schools and we need money to build the schools. The City (160A-209(d)) and the County (153A-149(c)) could legally double our taxes, both of them, to $1.50 per $100 of assessed value.

These bonds give us the ability to finance the schools over the lifetime of the building/bond issuance. The period for financing the buildings are not to exceed forty years, also by Statute.

They passed because fortunately, most reasonable adults understand and appreciate the value of education, and are responsible enough to know it doesn't come for free.

The idiots above, who our underfunded education system failed, think you can live in a developed civilized society without paying a dime. And they seriously think that if all taxes were eliminated -- that money would wind up in their pockets! Why don't they get involved in making sure the money is wisely spent -- instead of whining and pointing fingers?

Lots of nations in Africa, Central and South America or east Asia have the tax rates they desire. Why don't they go live there?

For those who say "The people who voted for the new bonds saw that it was better to pay a little every year for new schools..." should realize, Guilford County would have already had the money to build new schools if the school system and our school board (who thinks money grows on trees) had not been such wasteful spenders with OUR MONEY. Everyone knows we have to have money to build new schools, I guess the smarter of us would rather it be spent wisely.

First, Laura:

I would happily stack my educational achievements up against yours anytime. In fact, your silly ad hominem attack on the education level of prior posters brands you as an "internet troll." If you want to be taken seriously here, don't resort to logical fallacies of reasoning.

We already pay taxes for these schools. As our city grows, the tax base expands and the city takes in more taxes. Thus, the funds needed to build more schools are built in to our current taxes. This money that has been approved is for extra funds. I have not seen satisfacotry justification for them. Certainly not enough to approve $650 million in new, additional taxes to be placed on the backs of struggling homeowners during a mortgage crisis. People voted for these because the language is confusing ("bonds" versus "taxes") and they were not adeuqately informed about them. I have children in both public and private schools and the current waste in the public school system is appaling.

Regarding Eastern High School, my understanding is that the building was insured. The purpose of the insurance is to cover events such as this fire and replace the building. Why do they need tens of millions of MORE dollars?

I recognize that those who stand to benefit from these wasteful new taxes are going to defend them, and will stoop so far as to insult complete strangers. Your greed is showing; please go gloat somewhere else.

My question is:

When is the City of Greensboro going to tell us who started the fire at Eastern Guilford High School?

Because this is one bond that shoudn't have been passed.

As a new homeowner in this state and in Greensboro I find this information very unsettling. You have job loss all over the greater Greensboro area and people are barely making it, now they have to try even harder, how about making more job opportunities available and stop chasing companies away. I came from Florida where this same type of thing has KILLED the housing market, watch out!

“About 55 percent of 124,246 voters approved the $412.3 million bond, according to complete but unofficial election results.

That's a smaller percentage then the 59 percent and 67 percent of voters, respectively, who passed bonds in 2000 and 2003.”

Where did the money go in 2000 and in 2003? I guess, about 45 percent of voters would like to know and I wonder if the other 55 percent of voters pay taxes or care.

North Carolina should question bribes, I mean incentives of course, that go to large corporations such as Fed Ex and Dell. That money was needed for schools and other bond issues.

Taxes pay for day to day expenses - staff, heat, electricity. Bonds pay for, among other things, bricks and mortar.

We are adding students faster than the tax revenue is increasing. We need new schools. We need to expand existing schools.

Property values are not rising with the rate of inflation while county and city expenses are keeping up with inflation. If property values do not rise, then the tax rates must. It is simple math.

I can't believe all these bonds for schools passed and the sales tax did not. Why not have everyone, and even some out-of-towners, help pay for our schools instead of penalizing (AGAIN!)the property owners?

The school system needs to be more responsible with their budget. To leave "necessities" to the whim of the voters every few years is unconscionable.

I must agree with initial input--most people could not have realized the personal tax implications of these bonds when they voted on them. Perhaps they did--was there a big push to get renters out to vote?

I deleted a comment by AAA for calling other commenters a disparaging name.

Hey AAA-
I have a better idea. Why don't you and Laura move to Canada or any of a number of European sociaist countries where the tax levels stifle innovation and personal initiative? You clearly favor a socialist agenda.

You argue that something near 0.7 BILLION in new taxes placed on the backs of struggling Guilford country homeowners during a mortgage crisis is a good thing. This is so transparently incorrect that it is stupifying. I can only assume that you directly benefit or that you don't pay homeowners tax, and have no concern for those of us who do.

If you want to discourage something, tax it. This will discourage homeownership and result in further burden on those of us who do retain our homes.

Buyers Remorse, you are right on!

I'm sick of the attitudes of the Laura's in the world. Bet she doesn't own a house or property in this county!!

The other reason I deleted AAA comment was to head-off a discussion that is now developing. Please keep the comments about bonds and not about other commenters.

Isn't it called the "North Carolina Education Lottery"? Why are the taxpayers having to pay for this when the "purpose" and argument for bringing the lottery to the state was to help pay for education?

Obviously I'm an uneducated voter, but it would seem real simple to me. The primary funds should be coming out of the Lottery funds, not adding taxes to people who already are paying enough.

I am with Forced Philanthropy; why did the sales tax fail so miserably? Regardless if the schools have wasted taxpayers money in the past is not the point. The point is that we need new schools and the money is not there. We can point fingers all day, but that will not improve the situation. Maybe it's time to look closely at the decisions that are being made and who is making them.
So now that we are in this hole, there was a proposal to help pay for these bonds. My biggest complaint, as with most of the folks that posted, is the burned is now on the homeowners to pay for it. Even though the sales tax increase would only raise about $15 million in the first year, it's still $15 million less then what homeowners now have to pay! It equals $0.25 extra for a purchase of $100 item (not many people would miss that). I felt that a .5% increase would have been fine. Share the tax burden evenly; stop putting it all on homeowners!

All you need do is look at any of the other advanced civilizations/countries in the world. Their peoples uniformly pay the most in taxes. I suggest you think about what you really want for our country.

One point of fact regarding the notion that only people who pay property taxes should be allowed to vote on bonds: Almost everyone *does* pay property taxes. They pay on their automobiles and boats. People who rent their homes almost certainly have the cost of taxes on that property built into their rent (if the landlord has any sense). There are certainly reasons to complain about the outcome if you want, but suggesting that the vote was carried by people who "don't pay property taxes" isn't one of them.

Lex, that is true, but paying for the taxes through rent is indirect and that is psychologically different (and will cause people to vote differently). I just don't think most people realize the personal financial impact these bonds will have on them, regardless of whether they are real property owners or renters.

Do a poll of people you interact with during the day and see:
a) whether they voted
b) what they think the monetary impact will be for them personally
c) why they prefer a property tax instead of a sales tax.
No fair asking just reporters and news personnel, they are supposed to be more informed than the rest of us. :)

Do reread the question for these postings at the top. Please keep red herrings (i.e. socialism) out of this body of water unless you can prove how they belong using logic.

Our local government does not exhibit the slightest bit of fiscal responsibility - school boards or other elected bodies included. I'm tired of paying for their incompetency when it comes to managing money. When I moved to Greensboro in the late 80's I thought it was a great place to live. Then the developers took over and paved everything. (As in new apt. complex go ahead given yesterday) Forget expanding the tax base. Manage what you have!

Lex,

Good point. There is certainly a trickle-down effect. I agree that everyone should have a vote.

As per my original post, I just wish that people were better informed exactly what they are voting for. My wife had to have an ongoing email dialogue with WFMY researchers to find out about all of the bonds before the vote; even their research correspondants had trouble finding out information. We are often confronted by a large number of these tax initiatives, when a long line of people behind us waiting to vote, which forces a hasty decision with not enough information. I would prefer actual disclosure, notifying voters on the screen at the beginning of the paragraph that this is a tax increase and not just a "bond," and also providing detailed information on each measure and why the proponents feel it is justified. Frankly, I'd appreciate an example of how much the tax on an average home would increase yearly over the term of the bond. X hundred million is meaningless to most voters; $250 per year increased tax each year for 5 years is not.

Aside from the additional funds I will be contributing to these various causes, I don't want to see Greensboro implode the way other cities have in this mortgage crisis. The sum we are talking about is very considerable, and seemed semi-random. Who knows what new tax opportunities next year's votes will bring?

The one item that was clearly listed as a tax - the sales tax increase - was voted down vociferously. If these others had been more clearly described, I would be more confident that the public was not duped.

Confussed said "Regardless if the schools have wasted taxpayers money in the past is not the point.....I felt that a .5% increase would have been fine. Share the tax burden evenly; stop putting it all on homeowners!"

How about fixing the wasteful spenting FIRST, then see how much money we really need? And
by the way, HIGH TAXES never come as one great big sum. Politicians are too smart for that. They raise your taxes .5% here, another .5% there, then all of a sudden we're paying the HIGH TAXES we now have. I guess you just bought into the "only .5%" line.

I am curious how many more people will lose their homes to foreclosure over the next 5 years as a result of these homeowners tax increases. You can say that homeowners are guilty of overextending themselves, but they are no more guilty than those who failed to read the fine print on these new taxes.

Johnny's got a great new school. To bad he just lost his house.

I am also curious how much of homeowners personal wealth and equity in their home will be reduced by the resulting glut of abandoned / foreclosed houses on the market. You are going to see a lot of walkaways as people realize that the current value of their home is less than their remaining balance on the loan. Just don't get fired... oops, sorry all you guys from RF micro. Just bad timing there.

The hidden price of this tax increase. Let's pour a little more gasoline on the fire.

The people who are responding to this blog are in the minority. We made up our minds how we were going to vote prior to yesterday's vote. The April 2oth News and Record had a front page splash in the Ideas section.

That article spelled out the average costs per year of the individual bonds. Some years will be higher, some lower ... the five year cumulative average .. a misleading number, granted ... is $191.80 per year, or less than $4 per week - for the owner of a $200,000 home. One less cup of latte per week.

I wish people would educate themselves before they vote or make inaccurate comments.

1. EASTERN GUILFORD
a. There was insurance, the insurance was collected - approx 17 million
b. 17 Million is not enough to build a new school
c. If we did not pass this bond, the county commissions were going to use a MORE EXPENSIVE method to finance the need. We SAVED OURSELVES money by passing the Bond.

2. SCHOOL BONDS FROM 2000 & 2003
a. They were needed.
b. Visit one of your 14 local high schools to see what you paid for. They would be glad to show you around
c. Borrowing for a school is a lot like borrowing for a house - if is paid back over a period of years.

3. SALES TAX
a. Many political scientists and economists will tell you this is a TAX ON THE POOR.
b. It likely would have passed if the Commissioners told us what it was going to be used for.

4. LOTTERY
a. Guilford County has recieved money from the education lottery
b. Your misinformed if you think lottery proceeds will pay for ALL of the school construction needs - it was designed to HELP pay for SOME of the needs. To reduce the burden.

5. WRONG ASSUMPTION: As tax base grows that should pay for new schools.
a. General property tax is designed to pay for the OPERATING expense.
b. The increase to the tax bases pays to education the increased number of students. (staff, buses, supplies, etc)
c. Every 1300 new kids to the district is and ENTIRE high school. The increase to the tax base from their parents moving to the area will NOT finance a new 61 million dollar high school.

6. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT - DON'T VOTE ON IT.
a. Educate your self before you vote. The information is readily available. If all else fails, call your county commissioner or school board representaive and ask them to explain why it is on the ballot.
b. An uneducated voter harms our democracy.

Please, act responsibly.

Response to "taxpayer"

As I remember, this was a county referendum. The City of Greensboro can't tell you who burned Eastern Guilford High School down. Only the Guilford County Sheriff's Department and/or SBI can do that because the school is in the county, not in the city limits. It's unfortunate that so many people that post on blogs don't know how local government works

Adam, thanks for your comments. Here we go:

1. Eastern Guilford: So your are admitting that it was underinsured. I pay REPLACEMENT VALUE insurance on my house. Whose head is going to roll for this oversight? How can it be insured for $17 million when what you are saying is that it costs $17M + 20M = 37M to rebuild? Who was responsible for choosing to insure it in that amount!

2. You list out outline points for this hundreds-of-millions tax increase but don't actually provide any facts. No facts. Because this magnitude increase cannot be justified in light of bureaucratic waste.

3. Sales tax: is a consumption tax. Those who consume more (ie wealthier) pay more. Your assertion makes no sense. Also, this would allow visitors to our fair city to contribute.

4. Lottery - voluntary taxes are great. Keep it going!

5. Taxes pay only operating expenses: This is a direct result of the waste and mismanagement of these organizations. They are unable to save money for later expenses or expansion because they blow it all on bureaucratic nonsense. These taxes were meant to pay for schools. If I get new customers in my business, should I raise my rates and fees because their fees only pay for the lighting and secretary in my business? Your very arguement highlights the major problem with the system! It is run on a constant "bail us out while we squander your money" platform.

6. I agree in this case - I think that voters did not have enough information and ended up passing these ridiculous bonds. Voters should be told at the beginning of the paragraph, "Should a new tax on all guilford country homeowners in the amount of $____ million be levied in order to pay for ___." I think we would have seen a different result.

However, I disagree in general that an uneducated voter harms democracy. There are many, many uneducated people in this and other countries. To deny them the right to vote would be to disenfranchise them, and lead to a segment of the population who is not represented. Is your point that these people should be taxed but not represented? That goes against te founding principles of this country. I can't tell if you are encouraging those not as educated as yourself to not vote, or if your meaning was that all voters should be educated rather than that some should be denied voting. A more educated populace is not accomplished through further bloated bureauocracy.

FP: I wasn't arguing that paying taxes indirectly doesn't affect one's outlook. I was taking issue with the notion advanced by other commenters that people who don't pay *any* property tax might have had a significant impact on the outcome.

As for a red herring of socialism, I'm not even sure what you're getting at. I didn't advocate socialism. I didn't even argue that there weren't good reasons for opposing some or all of the bonds.

Adam
I agree people should educate themselves before they vote. I suggest you do the same. If people had educated themselves as to the waste already being spent by our school system, the bond wouldn't have passed.
1. EASTERN GUILFORD
Why wasn't the school insured for replacement cost? If the school system had insured it for enough we wouldn't be needing the bond. This was and is being irresponsible with tax payer money.
2. SCHOOL BONDS FROM 2000 & 2003
"Visit one of your 14 local high schools to see what you paid for. They would be glad to show you around"
I'm sure they would love to show you one of the new palaces. What they won't show you is how they could have saved money by not being so extravigate.
3. SALES TAX
"It likely would have passed if the Commissioners told us what it was going to be used for. "
That's your opinion. And mine is just as good. I doubt it would have passed no matter what the commissioner said it was going to be used for. People are tired of HIGH TAXES.
4. LOTTERY
Once again the opponents of the lottery have been proven correct. We have seen NO significate results from having the lottery. We were being asked to aprove school bonds before the lottery and we are still being asked to aprove school bonds. The quality of education has not go up. As a matter of fact we have not seen or heard of any of the benefits from the lottery that we were told we would see.
5.WRONG ASSUMPTION?
You stated the problem. $61,000,000.00 new school. Anyone who thinks this is resonable,
is blind to real problem. MANY private schools (which provide better educations) are built everyday for MUCH less. Tell the school board and school system to get realistic, then we'll talk.
6. Educate yourselves.
"If all else fails, call your county commissioner or school board representaive and ask them to explain why it is on the ballot."
That's like having the foxes guard the hen house. Yeah, I really expect them to tell me BOTH the positives and negatives. Real education comes from learning both sides of the issue.
Too bad you didn't truly educate yourselve before the vote. You probably would have voted differently.

Lex, sorry about that. The bit about red herrings was aimed at those mentioning other countries paying more taxes, EGHS culprits, etc. That comment was not intended for you, but I see now that it looks like it was. Thanks for clarifying your previous point.

Adam, regarding the comment on not voting if you don't understand an issue: Sometimes voters do think they understand the issue, only to find out later they do/did not. It is difficult to educate the public when they are not seeking information because they feel they are already sufficiently informed.

I'm done...looks like the general conclusion about why the bonds passed was because some felt the bonds were the best way to meet the current needs and others thought they sounded like a good idea without actually knowing they were voting for a tax increase. Is that a good summary?It will be interesting to ask others in the community why they voted yes and compare those to our theories.

Buyers Remorse my response would be

1. Eastern Guilford:
I do absolutly agree that it was uninsured, but I have not been able exactly why. I believe, but am not sure that the insurance for schools comes from the state. This is an important question, that needs an answer. Why are we underinsuring our school? Additionally, was only Eastern under insured or is the entire district uninsured?

2. I did not provide any facts, because they are too numerous to list here. Take Southwest High School for an example. Prior to 2000 - here is the condition of the school. 1200 students in a building designed for approx 800. Lunch was major source of problems - either lunch began at 10:15 a.m and ended at about 2:45 p.m. -OR- seniors had to go off campus to get lunch, and under classmen had to eat on the floors of the hallways. The entire student body did not fit in the gym nor the auditorium. The bonds of 2000 and 2003 built a new lunchroom, so that students no longer had to eat on the floor or leave the campus. A new gym was built to augment the crowded physical education classroom space and the after school athletics activities. Several classrooms were built that were needed to prevent the addition of ten or so mobile classrooms to the already 26 mobil classrooms on the campus.
AND THAT IS JUST ONE SCHOOL!

This school bond that just passed, will increase the classroom space as 1015 new homes are scheduled to be built across the street from the school. The new developments across from the school are projected to add at 1500 new students to the school system. Additionally, the bond will pay for a library / media center expansion to create adequate space for computers and new material. The old gym will also be expanded to increase capacity.

Those are the facts as I know them. Without an expansion - where are we going to put all those new kids? What solution do you propose?

3. Sales Tax: before you make assertions, please do some research. A sales tax places a tremendous burden on the poor in relation to the wealthy. The poor will end up shouldering a greater burden of the tax than the rich. A sales tax ultimate taxes the poor at a higher rate than the rich. Look at it as a percentage not just sheer dollars. All other taxes (property & income) are billed to citizens as a percentage, so that everyone holds nearly the same burden.

4. Lottery - I'm glad we agree.

5. I agree that taxes which only pay the operation expenses is a poor method of financing and running a business, but that is how much of the government runs sadly. In North Carolina, we don't give our school boards taxing power, and thus as I am sure you know are at the mercy of the county commissioners. The funds the county commissioners provide the school boards - at least in guilford county has not for the past number of years met even the operating expense needs - let alone enough to save.

I agree that there is waste in government, but there is also waste in business. In multi-milliondollar operations, there is bound to be some waste. However, I am not sure I agree with you as to the extent of the waste in the Guilford County public schools. I invite you to take a look at a school, and provide me with some examples of waste. I would love to listen to your arguement.

Our county commissioners have failed to pay for even the needed operating expense of the school system. The system every year, has had to cut programs or to halt maintenance because the commissioners would not provide them with the funding they requested. Do you want to know why they did not provide them with their funding request? - Its because they did not want to raise your taxes. If the commissioners would have raised taxes over the past 20 years to keep up with the growth and needs of the schools, then yes we would not be in the predicament where we need 2 billion dollars for capital improvements to catch up.

I believe we have a duty to the children of this county to provide a sound education. To do so we need a place for them to meet to learn. We need chairs for them to sit in. We need laboratories for them to learn in. If there is no where for them to do, and we don't want to build a new facility - where do you propose we put them?

I don't want you to think I am for a "bail us out because we did not do our jobs system," I am not. People should be held responsible - and for the lack of capital improvements and savings - in this county that would lie with the county commissioners who have been scared to substantially raise your taxes without you voting to do so.

6. I agree that more information should be presented at the voting booth on exactly what we are paying for - why is making a list so hard?

However, you can not say specifically that this bond will raise you taxes by XXX dollars each year - because that would be false. Unlike a mortgage the amount paid each year is not constant. This is inpart because this bond, will replace some of the old bonds that expire. In part we are continuing the current tax, while adding to it some more. But the dollar amounts each year change.

I do agree that you would have seen a different result - because a selfish voter would have said how much is this going to cost me and am I willing to pay for it. A community conscious voter would have said, that these are things we all need - as a community, and that without them our community will falter. As a result, our property values decline, and our jobs disappear. Gotta look at the big picture. These bonds have far greater beneficial impacts that you may realize. Look at it as an investment - one that produces a significant positive return. (See UNCG study among others)

I think you misunderstood me: NO ONE should be denied a right to vote. HOWEVER - if you are going to exercise you right, I ask that you do so in a responsible manner. Just as we ask people to do in other aspects of life, when they choose to exercise a particular right. To be a responsible voter, means you educate your self BEFORE you go to the polls. Our citizens have a responsiblity to themselves and their neighbors to be educated about the issues on which they are going to cast their vote - because it affects all of us - the good and the bad.

My point is not that people should be taxed without being represented. I am not sure where you drived that notion from what I posted previously.

My point is - if your going to vote, figure out what you are voting on and why you are casting your vote the way you did. All of which can be accomplished in 30 minutes or so. It really is not hard, and the most uneducated of us can do it. Those who don't - I suppose are just lazy. If you disagree, give me a better answer than the one I propose.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I am president of the Southwest Guilford High School Class of 2003, Graduate of UNC-Chapel Hill)

Dear Murrow,

Greensboro, Guilford County, School System or Government System someone in the system knows who the responsible person is that started this fire. The funny thing is, why was DH Griffin sent to the school to start the clean up, when the fire inspectors were not finished doing their job.

Lets put 2 and 2 together, and use some common sense here. By the news there had been several reportings of trash can fires and then theres one that is so bad that the school burns down??????????? You know Southeast High School has been reporting the same thing with trash can fires. So should we start looking for a Southeast High School Bond at the next poll.

Get real dude, I'm sick of getting hit with higher taxes if you like giving your money away why don't you have your employer make your entire check payable to Guilford County.

Keeping it real: my response.

1. EASTERN GUILFORD
I believe you have to ask the state and the county commissioners on this one. Not the school board.

2. SCHOOL BONDS FROM 2000 & 2003
Again - GO VISIT ONE!! They are not as extravigant as you may think. I have visited, many of them. Some of them are actually pretty bare bones compared with a private school or college classroom. Most of the new classrooms have minimal technology compared with what is expected in a modern day college classroom - and the learning in the college classroom is not that different.

3. SALES TAX
Raise your hand if you like taxes. Wow, not a single person raised their hand. How shocking.
I hear you "Keeping it real" no one wants to pay more taxes - but at some point we have to pay for the things we need and use. Who wants to pay more for gas - no one, but we pay it because we need it for our lives to function as we know it now.
(that may be a bad example, but you get the point)

4. LOTTERY
I take some offense to that.

You have not looked if you haven't seen the effects of the lottery. The lotter funds more than just capial building projects.

For example, it provides scholarships to deserving students to attend one of our find public higher education institutions. Please point out to the student who needs the scholarship to stay in school why he is less deserving than his lower performing peer whose wealthy parents can pay.

If you look for it- you will see the positive effects the revenue of the lottery is having on our communities.

Not only that - but our school bond would have been higher, if not for the lottery.

5.New High School Cost
Yes it is expensive. I agree. How do you propose to lower the cost.

The county puts its construction projects out for bid, the lowest contractor who meets the county standards for design wins.

Got a better idea - propose it.

6. Educate yourselves.
Yes - you need both sides. But knowing one side, is better than knowing nothing. I think you would be surprise how candid your representaives are willing to be. Have you ever called one??? I have. More than one.

(again: full disclosure, President, SW Guilford High Class of 2003, Graduate UNC-CH)

Adam,

I am posting too much on this blog so I will pipe down. Its a fait accompli and sour grapes aren't helpful. Congrats to those who sought these new taxes. I would like to point out that on a county scale, 0.7 billion in new taxes is a ton of money, and would just ask that people consider the financial situation of others before blithely voting for more taxes. Please don't try to measure $0.7 billion in Lattes because it veils the truth and the real impact that such taxes have on families.

The only way to reform education is through increased accountability at all levels. Shoveling cash in does not increase accountability - it just boats the system already in place. If the jobs and livelihood of each and every member of our education department depended on how well they could stretch dollars rather than how well they could blow them, we would all be a lot better off. That is only accomplished through accountability. Unfortunately, the one thing that such bureaucracies excel at is shifting blame and vehemently rejecting even basic accountability. These taxes haven't offered a single solution. They have just grown the problem.

Adam, you note that you graduated from high school in '03 and presumably college in '07. Although it may not seem like it now, once you have kids with braces, 15 different forms of insuance, escalating costs of running a household, college tuition, threat of layoffs, retirement savings (one prediction: you will collect almost nothing from social security), etc. in a decade or two, and people screaming that the already lavish taxes you pay are nowhere near your "fair share," your perspecive may shift as you are forced to choose between what is ideal and what is possible.

Why wasn't Eastern insured to replace the school at current standards, like homeowner's insurance?

From the N&R

"Each school system administrative unit is responsible for insuring the schools in their district. GCS carries property insurance with the Insurance Section of the Department of Public Instruction in Raleigh. This group insures over 90% of all the schools in NC. The coverage we carry is replacement coverage. Replacement coverage is for the building/s that are lost. We lost a building that was constructed in 1974/75. Our coverage pays for replacement of like kind and quality of what was lost. We would not build back a school constructed to the codes of 1974/75. Also the building that burned was a total of 126,500 sq. ft. The portion that was lost was 104,578 sq. ft. Insurance does not pay for the portion not lost.

The old Eastern High was built to accommodate 920 students. On November 1, 2006 when Eastern was lost, we had 1068 students. The new Eastern High’s core capacity will accommodate 1600 students with a total of 270,000 sq. ft.

GCS is requesting bids for higher levels of property coverage for the school year 2008-2009. These will be evaluated and a recommendation will be given to the BOE. Additional coverage always costs more money, so the available budget will also be a consideration."

Sue thanks for clearing that up for everyone. That is a totally rational legal explaination.

It's water over the dam now. I think it's time that we take a close at our school reps. and city and county council members. I think that we should be able to impeach councils members that are doing a bad job looking after the interest of the citizens. I for one am sick of the people running for an office and once they get voted in they do the opposite of what they ran on. We the people need to wake up before it's too late!

Council Members may be recalled - start a petition. (the citizens method of removing a sitting official)

Who is John Robinson? Let people debate man, if someone says something to another and you don't like it, don't delete it, this is American man. Back off you know! Now, to these bonds people who rent or don't own propery never should be allowed to vote for these bonds regarding our taxes going up. For those who voted for these bonds, you need to get a grip and realize that this all a bunch of crap. They will overpspend and then in a few years have some other type of bond for us to vote on because they need more money. The right people are not in office and that's one problem and secondly those who vote only see the benefits and not the crap that's getting ready to come down the line these next few years. Way to go Greensboro!

John Robinson is the host of this site. He asks that commenters review the "terms of use" which are linked on the bottom of this page. It is not unclear.

Again -

Lets be clear -
If you own a car or automobile, you pay property taxes in this state.

Additionally, inherent in a rent payment, is the property taxes the complex you rent from pays. As taxes go up, so does the rent - if the owner wants to recoop their costs. Although a renter may not pay directly - they do so indirectly.

Folks - Do you not understand - we have to pay for the services we use and demand.

You USE the jail - because you USE the safety it affords our community. If the police have no where to put the people they arrest, then what good does it do to arrest them just to let them go.

You USE the schools - just because you have no children, or don't have children that attend from public schools or the local community college - YOU benefit. How might you ask? Without an educated population, companies will move to communites that are. Without quality schools, companies will not choose to locate here or they may choose to relocate. Our schools and the quality of life is a component of what has brought companies such as Honda Jet, FedEx, and Dell to the area along with MANY others. YOU benefit from a good business climate - it is what provides you with a job, which allows you to own the property you live on.

Your jobs, your lively hood depend on a thriving community. A building block of a thriving community is the educational climate.

In fact, the educational climate in North Carolina is partially the reason the state has not suffered from the same severe effects of the credit crisis in this country. It may also be why, property values are rising (Charlotte - top ten in increases in value; Raleigh - significant increase in all sector jobs as a result of high college educated populace - source: CNNMoney.com) during a time when so many communities are seeing a drastic decline.

Look past your tax bill -
Look at the increase (or lack of a significant decrease) to your homes value
Look to the availability of jobs
Look to the employment rate (more employed = less crime, historically)
Look to the crime rate
Look to the number of businesses choosing your community over others
Look... you will find evey dollar you invest (which is what you are doing when you pay taxes) in your community returns benefits at least two fold to you and your family.

I hate taxes, but I sure do enjoy the benefits.

"All you need do is look at any of the other advanced civilizations/countries in the world. . . "

Balderdash!!

The main poin there, my fellow tax-paying citizens is that the core problem with our educational system is NOT $$$$$$$, but a culture (including its public schools) that has lost its spiritual and moral direction. The real issue is LEARNING, not fancier facilites that compete wiht Europe or universities.

My wife and I home-schooled our two kids and we had next to nothing in terms of facny gadgets - no computers! We READ!!!! We greatly used the libraries in the area and ordered a minimum of materials, but our children were loved, happy and VERY open to learning. Happy, secure children are highly teachable. Frightenend, broken-homed, depressed, unparented, drugged, and socially maladjuted ones are NOT.

Many public school kids refuse to even GO to school, in fear of gangs, bullies, chaotic classrooms, and assorted other dangers - and not because there are leaks in the ceiling or paint peeling off the walls. As a result, our schools are generally failing in their mission.

Therefore, I fully agree with all who want to stop funding failure until something radical is done. My most unpopular radical solution is close 'em all, and give education back to the private and religious sector WHERE IT BELONGS!! But I am not stupid enough to believe that will happen soon.

They could work - if we choose as citizens to have them - but only if prayer, Bible study and worship services were fully integrated into the curriculum . . . well, you see the problem: we have rejected God's answer and are stuck with dead, meaningless atheistic humanism as the operative principle. When we see the terrible repercussions of this scenario in all its gory, we may take the radical step I urged above. until then we will keep on complaining and pouring millions upon millions of dallars into a voracious, insatiable hole.

My heart goes out to the kids - and teachers - who have to suffer through such a dangerous and godless system. They are most all of them sincere and hard-working folks who are trapped in a faltering government boondoggle that should never have been instituted in the first place. We are simply experiencing the logical outcaome today, and funneling billions into it in order to save it. But let emphasize: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is not the answer!

How would you know about gangs, bullies, and "other assorted dangers?" When is the last time you were in a public school classroom??? For me, It was last week.

I agree just throwing money toward education does not solve the problem.

However, the state constitution requires a free public education be made available to all North Carolina citizens.

We must have the seats necessary for them to learn in. Without a place for them to learn - it is impossible to educate them.

Before you make rash and bold accusations about the climate of public schools, you should actually have some real basis for your statement.

During my time at UNC, our state's flagship educational institution (5th best public university, 28th among all universities. Source: US News & World Report), I met many people. Through our discussions and my experience in the classroom, I realized that the students who attended the Guilford County public schools were in much better position to achieve success than students from other counties. I was shocked that students from the North Carolina's other public school districts, private schools, and even home schoolers were not as prepared for the collegiate learning environment as my colleagues who attended one of the Guilford County Public High Schools. People complain and take for granted the great services our county provides. I found that I was only able to realize the magnitude of the quality of education I received when I stepped away from it and was being compared with students from all across the country. Most of the students who I recognized as excellent students often came from one of the mega public schools outside our state who have been nationally recognized or where from Guilford County.

To further point to the quality of education Guilford County provides, In Newsweek's annual ranking of America's Top Public High Schools, nearly every one of the county's high schools was on the list. Newsweek listed 1300 schools out of the 27,500 public high schools in the nation. That means, that even the 1300th best school was still in the top 5% of American High Schools. I would say that points to the excellence of our schools.

Let’s keep them that way.

By the way: there is more to learning than reading in a text book.

Adam,

You mention that you are a college grad but spend time currently in public schools.

Are you a teacher, employee, consultant, or other worker for the school system? Just asking so that we understand your perspective. You are much more passionate than a typical recent college graduate about secondary school expenditures.

My wife spends >10 hours a week in the public school where we have one of our kids, as a volunteer. This isn't bake sales and raffle tickets; if she and other parents don't do this, then critical parts of the curriculum simply don't get done. The acceptable alternative for the school is that these parts of the curriculum simply be ignored.

In calandar year '07 I gave over $800 in cash donations to that school to pay for replacing mildewed bookshelves and for PTA initiatives that pay for crucial student items like books, a carpet for children to sit on, etc.

I mention this mainly to counter your argument that those who did not support this tax increase are against the funding of education in our county. Bloating the system with gobs of tax money does not encourage responsible spending of what is in reality money that other people earned through hard work. I never saw adequate justification for funding on the scale that has been put forward. I never saw a detailed plan of how these hundreds of millions will be responsibly spent. I am sure such a plan exists somewhere, but when dealing with numbers this large it is impossible to drill down to the level of detail required for actual accountability. Combine this with recent economic downturns and potentially serious mortgage situation, and you have something that may actually be more harmful to Guilford County residents (especially in the short and medium term) than the gains that you suggest will occur.

I prefer smaller taxes that address specific needs, rather than huge omnibus tax packages that manage to cloud where money actually flows.

I am not in any form an employee nor a consultant for Guilford County (including the board of education) nor the State of North Carolina. I am currently a law student at the Elon University School of Law in downtown Greensboro.

I have no other interest in the system, other than that I received a significant benefit by being educated in the system. It disturbs me to a great degree that people bash something on which they have no basis to do so (I am not saying you are one of those people). I honestly believe that I received a superior education in the Guilford County Public Schools compared with that of many of my colleagues, including those who went to private schools in Guilford County and those who went to other NC public high schools. (any many of those students have recognized this too)

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I believe, but I have nothing to support this claim, that school bonds are put into one huge tax bond because that method is the method where the likely hood to get any school bond passed is the greatest. If the county would have put each individual project up separately, it is likely that they would have all failed because people look at the bond and then vote for the ones that benefit them and their community. Just take a look at the Eastern Bond statistics from the NC Board of Elections and where the most of the support for the bond came from. It is also interesting to note that the eastern part of the county is where a lot of the "no" votes came from on the other general school bond.

The school board recognizes this theory, which is why when a vote on a school bond is coming up they purchase and use county employees to hang banners in front of the schools that would receive some money from the bond stating how much that school will receive. Playing into people's selfserving interests.

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I am so happy you committed $800 of your non-tax money to help a school in need. But why should you bear the all of the costs as an individual of replacing that book shelf - we all have a responsibility to make sure there are mildew free bookshelves, and thus should pay for them. We do that through tax dollars.

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I disagree that the bonds will have a negative economic impact. I just simply don't agree. I believe that is factually inaccurate.

One reason I believe this is because many companies cite the quality of the local schools as a reason for locating in Guilford County. We need to do everything in our power to encourage high paying companies to come to and support Guilford County. Without good companies our citizens don't have jobs and our county does not have a solid tax base. Without jobs and a stable solid tax base communities falter and many fail as a result. I would point to many of the communities that have been hardest hit by the subprime crisis – Ohio for an example.

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As I stated above, smaller tax packages would likely not work.

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I would also like to point out, that the people who serve the citizens of Guilford County on boards and commissions are normal everyday people just like everyone else. They also pay taxes like everyone else and will also feel the tax increase. It is not only against their political interest to waste tax payer money, but it is also against their personal interest – because part of that money they are wasting is theirs too.

I forgot -

You said:
"I never saw a detailed plan of how these hundreds of millions will be responsibly spent. I am sure such a plan exists somewhere, but when dealing with numbers this large it is impossible to drill down to the level of detail required for actual accountability."

1. If you exercised your right to vote, I wish you would have done so responsibly and looked up the plan for what the money would have been spent on. As I said in previous posts, it was readily available.

2. The county stated what they planned to spend the money on, then figured out the cost of those projects, and put them into categories by school.

How much more do you want? A detailed architectural plan? Talk about a waste of money, what happened if we had not approved the bonds? The money we spent on an architect would have been wasted?? Right?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Exactly what type of detail do you want? Please elaborate.