News-Record.com

Hello, they're illegal? I think it's the right move.

You darn right it's the right move! It's about time and maybe now we can remove those press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish signs as well at the back and other places. If you're illegal then what rights do you have to be here getting an education and taking advantage of our services in the U.S. But, you'll have all these groups protesting and crap like that now, it just kills me. THEY ARE ILLEGAL PEOPLE!

I think that this is a great move. Now they need to get them out of the public school system. All we are doing is paying for their education, health expenses, and their food, and all they are doing is sending it back home. We need to also start fining these business who they work for that are not taking out taxes on them. I also hate hearing Press 1 for English and Press 2 for Spanish. REMEMBER the language her is ENGLISH!!!!

Why were they ever allowed in community college in the first place?

Illegal people? There's no such thing. I wish we could have a conversation about undocumented persons without the mean spirited comments we have on this forum. Just saying "send them all back" and "keep them out of our schools" is not a solution. The situation we find ourselves in concerning undocumented residents is of our own doing. We ignored the flood of
undocumented people for years as long as we could exploit the cheap labor. We ignored those who opposed NAFTA and who knew that this would happen. We have to find a policy that is humane and practical. Undocumented students value education a lot more than many of our children who were born here. I'm an American taxpayer too, and I would like to see undocumented students get a chance to receive an education.

Rasjay,

I could not make the decision to control ILLEGAL immigrants from arriving and receiving everything law-abidding citizens receive. That's the assinine political system. But don't tell us we're mean-spirited because we cannot afford to provide services for those born here or arriving here and following proper protocol. Please, pay our taxes or button your lip.

rasjay

Illegal people? There's no such thing.

OK they are people who did something ILLEGAL. Is that better?
If a thief robs a bank in order to buy food, he still did something ILLEGAL. Do we turn our backs on that crime as well? If we didn't provide their children with an education, if we didn't give them health care, if we stopped giving away all the freebies, do you think we would have the problem that we now have? I would think not. You DO NOT REWARD ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR, period. It only promotes more illegal behavior when you do.

It's a sad day when kids are denied an education and likewise a shameful period in North Carolina history.

Wow-what a suprise-why were they even doing it in the first place??? Also like the other reader said, maybe now we can eliminate the espanol selection on the keypads at the bank and supermarket checkouts. What if I was Oriental or say Ethiopian???Well at least it's a step int he right direction FINALLY!!!!

This is a GOOD move - I don't know if it's a RIGHT move. But ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL, we should not be rewarding anyone, regardless of age. Why should I as a taxpaying citizen see my money provide paid education for an illegal "person" that I can't afford myself without a loan that I have to pay for from my pocket? Is this fair to me??

This is just another step into the end of the of an era. It will deepen even more our recession (yes there is a recession) and create more social problems in our country.
So what do you think is going to happen next?
Imagine now all the illegal immigrants who are in High School, that were trying to better themselves to overcome poverty and become more useful to society.
There has been a huge drop out rate of Hispanics in High Schools (which will triple with this new law) since there is no motivation for these kids and guess what will become of them in the future?
I just don't want to imagine but crimes are going to increase dramatically.
FYI:One more thing to point out is that several illegal immigrants are paying taxes with an identification number called ITIN. This is just a number for tax purposes.

The whole idea of the pro-illegals, Aztlan-take-over, Canmerico (or whatever they call the new North American union) crowd was to get so many illegals into the US, and settled and anchor-babied in, that it would be impossible to uproot them and send them home. We've been quietly and systematically invaded.

Some areas of NC now look more like Juarez or Tihuana. Third World here we come! Meanwhile, our properous, powerful and advanced nation will continue to be dismantled, invaded, and out-sourced. Add to all this the encroaching moral degeneration of the culture and you have a formula for the ultimate dissolution of the great American Republic.

On the other hand, who on earth could blame these folks for wanting to escape their flee-bag countries for the land of opportunity and prosperity. There were unique elements that formed and developed the American nation. Latino nations lacked some the most vital ones, and are now reaping the sad fruit of their papist feudal oligarchies.

Our BIG MISTAKE was allowing the illegal thing to happen in the first place. Regulated legal immigration would have been slow enough to adapt our system in order to handle the attendant problems and demands.

We should take stringnet steps to at least stem the drain on our teetering social systems - like Oklahoma and a few other states. The illegals leave when they can't tap into the freebies. Not only can we not handle the overload, but our national vision is being ignored and deprecated, our language dusplaced - and soon our entire Southwest will become a Balkanized Aztlan - possibly even ceceding from the union.

And of course we will have to have another Civil War to bring them back into the Union - like the War of Northern Agression 150 years ago. I mean, if it was the right thing then, it must be the right thing when Aztlan cecedes. Right?

"Imagine now all the illegal immigrants who are in High School, that were trying to better themselves to overcome poverty and become more useful to society.
There has been a huge drop out rate of Hispanics in High Schools (which will triple with this new law) since there is no motivation for these kids and guess what will become of them in the future?"

What good would it do them to be in school anyway, if the government would get off its duff and start punishing employers who hire illegals, these people wouldn't be able to get jobs anyway like they shouldn't be getting now.

If they want to better themselves, there is an education system in mexico, it must not be that bad if the world's second richest man is mexican.

What's with all the archaic diction and racial slurs here? Bill, did you just refer to Asians as Orientals?

Gadfly, your entire post reads like a pamphlet for the KKK. I say this not to insult you. I say it in the hope that you don't want to resemble a KKK member in any way, and will change your tone in this online discussion.

So we have a contingency of people here who are against 'freebies' for illegals. Fair enough, but I've been to a community college for two years. It's not free, nor is it fun. There's really no reason to go to one unless you want to learn something and become a better person.

And so long as people are paying to attend, not taxing the system by learning English on their own, and making good grades, I don't see the reason why anyone who wants to attend an NC community college should be prevented from attending.

There is waste in the community college system, but I've never seen any of it directed at immigrants. I think we should focus on the real problem of American citizens who waste grants. Anyone who receives government financial assistance to attend college only to waste it by flunking out because of excessive absences (something that happens semester after semester at community colleges) should have all the money they were given transfered into loans. I can't tell you how many times I've seen caucasian men and women receive Pell grants, spend the refund check on Christmas gifts instead of books and education supplies, then hang out in the rec room instead of going to classes. Those are the people who really tax our ailing economy.

I only had a few immigrants in my classes, and I never really got the chance to know them too well because they were always too busy learning and trying hard to make good grades. I think one reason so many are vehemently against immigrants is because they embarrass us. They are eager to work hard, and many of them are proud to live in our country - two things I can't say for a growing majority of natural born U.S. citizens.

I absolutely agree with "fed up", why do we have illegal immigrants in our schools at all. Would we be over crowded and need millions in bonds if ALL students parents were paying their share of taxes? I think not.

What if our ancestors had been denied entry and education???? Does this make sense for our country?? They are here and not leaving. . . why would anyone want to deny someone the opportunity to learn and try to provde a better life for themselves and their families! It's incredibly sad!!!

It's amazing that people will criticize illegals for being uneducated and taking advantage of the system. . . but then turn around and deny them the very opportunities they need!

As Horton (Horton Hears a Who!) says. . . "A person is a person . . . .no matter how small!!"

All people deserve the right to a safe home and education! Let these people have the same opportunities our ancestors had!

Also, most do NOT want to be illegal! If immigration were not so complicated, most would be here legally! And those here legally would gladly do whatever was necessary to become legal. . .if only it were possible!

Cooler Heads Do What?:

You are mistaken if you think the tuition you pay to attend school at a community college is covering the cost of educating you. The community colleges are heavily SUBSIDIZED by the taxpayers. Illegal immigrants by and large do not pay taxes.

We have illegal immigrants because the government that uneducated conservatives keep choosing -- starting with Nixon -- have created an economic system of predatory capitalism that forces the poor out of their homelands in search of work. Ever hear of globalization and "free" trade?? Have you ever thought about what the WTO means to working people all over the world? Before it is all over, Republican voters and their children will be a victim of it too -- just like the middle class in Argentina -- but conservatives will blame immigrants and "the liberals," no doubt, because Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly will tell them to.

They are also illegal because most of them have no way of getting documentation, often because they are from small villages in undeveloped countries and don't have any means of obtaining birth certificates, and other documents that verify their identity. Or, the only way for them to get documents is to pay exorbitant bribes to corrupt officials.

Conservative voters in the U.S. are all so spoiled and so naive. These immigrants are caught between a rock and a hard place, in a cruel system that the uneducated people posting here make worse, with their callow and selfish attitudes. And, by the way, before conservatives here start screeching and braying about "socialism!" they should realize that a lot of people who agree with me love capitalism and free enterprise -- but we understand that it needs to be regulated for the sake of preserving democracy and equal opportunity. Which is more important than preserving profits for the tiny non-working Wall Street elite -- whose boots Republican voters lick everytime they go the polls.

JustMe:

I don't know about your ancestors, but mine came in through Ellis Island, legally. They had to learn English and pass a civics exam to be sure they understood the American system of government before they were allowed to enter the country. Think of the message you are sending to the immigrants who go through all the trouble to migrate here legally: You don't need to do all that stuff, you can have all the privileges of a citizen without any effort at all.

Laura James:

Your generalization of people based on their party affiliation is offensive. I cannot take any of your opinions seriously, since you are obviously prejudiced. Would another liberal please step forward and explain their position? Preferably one who knows how to speak without using insulting prejudicial comments.

There's no arguing with someone whose views on this topic are organized around a dislike of spending an extra three seconds hearing "Press 1 for English." But a number of the previous posters take as given a number of economic facts that aren't really facts.

1. Undocumented workers do pay taxes, in particular payroll taxes. To be sure, they don't pay as much in income taxes as native workers. But they pay as much in sales and excise taxes (like the gasoline tax!) and they pay a lot of payroll taxes as well. They pay billions of dollars more into Social Security than they'll ever get back. And finally, they don't get many of the public services that native workers do for their tax dollars.

2. It's true that when you net out all of the above, there is a cost to native workers of providing public services to undocumented workers. But it's not big. In North Carolina, it works out to a few dozen dollars per year per native family. That's not zero, but it's hard to see why people hyperventilate about it.

3. Undocumented workers don't send all their earnings back home. Studies show that the average is more like 15-20%. We don't have a problem with leakages like this when they're caused by Americans buying imported goods or traveling overseas, but when marginalized people do it, it becomes a problem for us.

Also, the percentage sent home falls as workers get more established here. Therefore, if the objection to undocumented workers is the money they send back to their home countries, one solution is to educate them and allow them to build their families here. Then they'll spend their earnings here.

There are reasons to restrict illegal immigration, but the only good ones are moral and legal. It's very hard to make an intellectually honest ECONOMIC argument for it.

Wow

It is honestly hard to even read and listen to the opposition when their arguments are so full of poor grammar and incorrect spelling. The poor grammar and horrible writing skills exhibited in these postings is so sad and shameful. My third grader ( who by the way can speak, write and read in both English & Spanish) has better communication, writing and grammar skills.

Maybe if undocumented people are not allowed in Community College anymore it will open up spaces for those of you whom have shown to have such poor communication, writing, spelling and grammar to go and some take some basic English classes.

Common sense returns to state government

I applaud Attorney General Roy Cooper’s decision and the community college system’s compliance with banning illegal aliens from attending.

Since illegal aliens are unlawfully present here and cannot lawfully operate and hold jobs, why should NC taxpayers subsidize their college education? State taxpayers can now breathe a little easier.

Illegals being allowed to attend college clearly discriminates against U.S. citizens who are vying for the coveted and limited seats. The last time I checked, going to college was not a "job Americans wont’ do."

It's refreshing to see common sense and the rule of law return to state government for a change.

After careful review, anyone with a even a modicum of logic can come to no other conclusion: illegal immigration must be halted, illegal immigrants here now must be deported and legal immigration needs decreased from the approx. 2 million allowed in per year currently.

Please review the following report on the FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION by economist Edwin Rubenstein released in April 2008:
http://www.esrresearch.com/Rubensteinreport.pdf

A partial summary of the report:

The impact on 15 Federal Departments surveyed was: $346 billion in fiscal related costs in FY 2007.

Each immigrant cost taxpayers more than $9,000 per year.

An immigrant household (2 adults, 2 children) cost taxpayers $36,000 per year.

Legal immigrants were not separated out from illegal immigrants for the fiscal impact study, but if they had been, the fiscal cost per ILLEGAL immigrant would be even more shocking than the figures quoted above.

The most extensive and authoritative study, prior to economist Edwin Rubenstein's "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration" (April 2008) , is the National Research Council (NRC)’s The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration (1997).

The NRC staff analyzed federal, state, and local government expenditures on programs such as Medicaid, AFDC (now TANF), and SSI, as well as the cost of educating immigrants’ foreign- and native-born children.

NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal annual expenditures and pays $10,664 in federal taxes—that is, they generate a fiscal deficit of $2,682 (1996 dollars)per household.

In 2007 dollars this is a deficit of $3,408 per immigrant household.

With 9 million households currently headed by immigrants, more than $30 billion ($3,408 x 9 million) of the federal deficit represents money transferred from native taxpayers to immigrants.

Our national immigration policies have to work for the United States. While improving the plight of the world’s poor is a laudable goal, the finite resources we have available to fulfill that goal would be swamped if there wasn’t some orderly and manageable system in place to limit entry into the United States to what this nation can actually support. The more illegal aliens that are permitted to subvert the immigration system, the fewer immigrants we can accommodate who might actually produce a positive benefit for our country.

The more we become a nation of illegal immigrants, the deeper we fall into anarchy.

THANK YOU ANDREW BOD!!!

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU

I needed some facts and there they appeared.

Mr. Brod, your euphemism of choice, "undocumented workers," seems an attempt to imply that all illegal immigrants are, in fact, "workers." You know quite well that that is not the case. Many, do NOT work, do NOT pay payroll taxes and do NOT contribute to FICA and Medicare.

If we were talking about only "workers," Perhaps it would be "... very hard to make an intellectually honest ECONOMIC argument for (restricting illegal immigration)."

But as it is, with so many merely drawing down resources without contributing anything, I think your proposition is seriously flawed.

Looks like once again state government has to step in and do what federal officials should have done YEARS ago. Sadly due to laws that remain on the books that will never seem to be adhered to, this issue will never die. Now, the problem here lies within public schools. Those attending now that are here illegally will get to remain as students, ? Why you might ask? Simply put, no illegal has to provide 'proof of citizenship" to officials when registering. Sounds contradictory to me, but I hope this decision from Mr Cooper stays put. Until we begin cleaning house in other areas, we'll just keep being inundated with the masses of illegals that think they have the right to be here. Begin with employers and fine them to the max. That might be a start. The future for our children is sad. Case closed.

Well, it's about time our state took some proactive action in this regard. ! Why don't they have community colleges and universities in their own respective countries. ? They should
be here legally first and have to serve in the US
Military for four years. No more free ride off the
taxpaying US born citizen. If they don't like our
US customs and our US Constitution then give
them a one way ticket back to their respective
home country. !

Well, it's about time our state took some proactive action in this regard. ! Why don't they have community colleges and universities in their own respective countries. ? They should
be here legally first and have to serve in the US
Military for four years. No more free ride off the
taxpaying US born citizen. If they don't like our
US customs and our US Constitution then give
them a one way ticket back to their respective
home country. !

I totally disagree with letting illegals in colleges and schools here. My daughter just graduated with her associates degree. I think back to all the red tape it was to get her signed in to college. Even step parents having to show their income, back taxes, etc.. Even with her real father deceased. What do they have to show? Not much at all. I don't mind what had to be paid because it has benefited her for life now. It just is not fair they get so much free and the legal ones have to pay the price. We need to think of our legal citizens first and foremost.

Laura James:

It was Ted Kennedy, a liberal, who wrote legislation that opened the floodgates that made the immigration problem we have possible. Stick that in your liberal stew and eat it.

Mmmmm, liberal stew.

Andrew: Thank you for providing facts . . .

Tammy: Your ancestors came in through Ellis Island because they could. . . legally is NOT an option for many now!

Jenn: Amen!

Margaret: How many do you personally know that are here, not working, just drawing resources? Now, how many do you know that are working, contributing and paying taxes? Quite possibly, you don't know any of either one but just want to further the ignorance of our society with opinions not based on anything but racism.

Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics, but I know of a lot more "illegals" who are working and paying taxes than who are not. . . and I know plenty of citizens who have never contributed and have only drawn as well. . . and been a serious detriment to those trying to get an education (I know. . .I see it every day!) Should we ship them out somewhere?

This proposal is about education. . . and all people deserve to be EDUCATED!!! It can only make things better for ALL of us! You never know, that person you denied an education might just hold the cure for cancer or the creation of a new fuel or some other new technology. . . .

Persons who are here illegally should not be able to attend and graduate from our community colleges. Maybe now, our legislators can check into our child support system as I was an agent until last year. The illegal immigrant women come in, say the father is in Mexico and automatically qualify for medicaid, TANF, and other programs, while my 80 year old neighbor receives $10.00 in food stamps and nothing else because she worked all her life and owns a home! What wrong with this picture! Give me your tired and your poor? Give me a break! Did I say that child support does not have a reciprocal agreement with Mexico? We can't collect there, so guess what? You're parents of a proud baby girl and boy... you're paying for them!

Denying an education to young people, or anyone for that matter, is morally wrong. It moves human rights back 200 years or more to the time when it was illegal to teach slaves to read. Those of you who are so upset about the cost need to get your information from facts, not rumors and hate-mongering blogs. The facts are that labors of our undocumented, not what they send home (and why is it so bad that they want to feed their families?) generate about 9 billion dollars for NC as opposed to about 600 million dollars that are spent on them here for medical, educational, etc. needs, netting the NC about $8,400,000.00. Nationally the surplus generated by the undocumented is about $25 billion. And you want to arrest them for being undocumented? Who should we turn loose to make room for them? You want to get tough with businesses for hiring them? Look at the states that are "successful" at that. The businesses are moving out to friendlier climates. It is our immigration laws that are broken.

I tell you what Jenn and Andrew, why don't you hop on over to Mexico or wherever and help more of these people come over and cost us more money. Better yet go over there and educate them, so we don't have to pay to do it. My kids have Spanish speaking students in their class and you know what it does, it holds the others back. The teacher has spend time with the two little ones who can't speak and the others get neglected and that's not right.

Pam, they are ILLEGAL, they don't deserve to be educated or in this country for that matter. GET IT! America is going to crap and when that Obama fellow gets in it will get worse, but everyone think there is going to be this glorious change. Yeah right, wait for your tax bill then suckers!

As a life long resident of NC and whose ancestors came through Ellis Island,were brought over in slave boats and Native American, I continue to be amazed at the idea that illegal immigrants are owed anything by this state. The majority of the time I am viewed as a liberal , but not in this instance.
As we struggle to provide services for reidents of NC , how can we provide when the sources of revenue are declining and the needs are growing. Our resources can go only so far.
I often hear the illegals state "we hurt nobody, we just want a better life ". If that were the case the illegal would not enroll their children in schools,pursue grants from social services or the health department. Those programs cost money and are funded by (gasp) the taxpayers.
There is also the notion that we should give everyone a helping hand but at what point should we determine that we have given all that we can and now must care for our citizens who are really struggling in this recession.

Laura James:

I take exception to your declaration that all "conservatives" are uneducated - lumping people together and calling them "uneducated" simply because their political views and affiliation are not the same as yours is as hateful as the hate speech spewed by racists. I find your opinions highly offensive and entirely out of touch. You liberals think you're so enlightened, and you know absolutely nothing. It's nothing more than the parroting of whatever you've heard said by Obama, Clinton, Kennedy, Gore, or any of the other lunatic lefties.

I have seen with my own eyes the drain that these illegal immigrants are on this country, and I think it's high time we as a nation start to take care of our own instead of some other country's citizens. I don't want one penny of the money that is taken from me and mine by the government to be given to any illegal immigrant for anything. We all know that if this country stopped giving out freebies to anyone and everyone not born here, they would leave and never come back. It's time to put a stop to the gravy train.

Andrew Bod

Even if the illegal immigrants pay any kind of payroll taxes, and I'm not conceding they do just because you said so, the school bonds in this city will be paid by increases in property taxes,
not payroll or gas taxes. We are in a forum on free education to illegal immigrants. Its easy to tell this group that illegal immigrants pay all kinds of taxes with no way to verify it.

zeezil: The research you cite was commissioned by a right-wing anti-immigration association, which is perfectly okay. Nothing wrong with that. However, the research results to which I referred have been established in numerous academic studies, by researchers with no particular ideological axe to grind. I'll let the other readers decide which line of research is more reliable.

Besides, even if the figures you cite are valid, they don't mean what you think they mean. Suppose it's true that each illegal immigrant costs $9,000 per year in increased costs of social services. Of course the cost per illegal immigrant isn't really the right number. What's more relevant is the cost per native-born person. How much am *I* paying to cover the cost of illegal immigrants?

Because there are a lot more of us than there are illegal immigrants, that $9,000 cost (even if it weren't bogus) would be spread out over a large number of native people. The number that most people cite is 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. But the U.S. population is something like 304 million. Let's say it's 300 million even, and let's suppose the government figures count each and every illegal immigrant (which isn't true). This would imply that the population of native-born and legal immigrants is 288 million. Hence for every 1 illegal immigrant, there are 24 of the rest of us. Therefore, your $9,000 figure works out to about $375 per native person per year.

Of course $375 per year isn't nothing, but it's not the kind of number that anti-immigration organizations could use in their fundraising efforts. Instead, they use the bigger and less relevant $9,000 figure.

And I'll say once again that I don't buy the $9,000 figure, because the only way you can get a number that high is to ignore the benefits conferred on the economy by immigrants, illegal and otherwise.

Oh, but I forgot, for you folks it's a given that no immigrants can possibly be good for the economy. My bad.

Heavy Pants: I don't think I said we should increase illegal immigration, and in fact I agree that there are valid reasons to restrict it. It's just that those reasons aren't economic in nature. Sorry you missed the point.

Margaret: Are you really suggesting that illegals come here to avoid work? I must say, that's an innovative concept. By your reasoning, Americans would be flooding across the border to Canada to take advantage of that country's superior social services.

Gus: By definition, an undocumented worker (call him illegal--I don't care) doesn't have his own documents. So he uses a fake Social Security card. As a result, FICA is deducted from his paycheck and credited to the account of someone other than himself. He pays but can never benefit. I'm not saying that this outweighs everything else, but it should at least be part of the calculation.

As for school bonds, you're both right and wrong. Thanks to the rejection of the 1/4-cent sales-tax increase, the bonds will indeed have to be funded through property taxes. I calculated that 40% of that sales-tax increase would have been paid by non-Guilford residents, and another small chunk would have been paid by illegal immigrants (we can agree that they buy things and pay sales tax, can't we?). But instead, Guilford voters put it all on property owners. I'll leave readers to decide whether that was a smart move.

But even so, illegals will help pay for a little of this. Most are renters, and we all know that landlords use their tenants' rent payments to cover their property taxes. Indirectly, illegals will help pay for this. I'm not saying that they'll pay their fair share, because I don't know. But it should be obvious that they'll pay something.

First, what are you talking about people, who said we are paying for the college education of illegal aliens? They were allowed to be in college as out of state students, which means they have to pay the full cost of their education. No taxpayer money is involved on that, so please educate yourselves and learn to read. In my opinion, these poor people have better desire of being educated than you do.

Second, no matter what you say, this is racism, prejudice, or phobia to immigrants. You take this education away, then you wanna take the basic education away, then you want to take health care away, then what is next? banning ownership? or perhaps putting a mark on them? Same thing happened some time ago in Germany. That is the way Nazis started, later on started the extermination of jews. Are illegal aliens going back home? NO, they won't as long as they find employment here. That is the root of the problem. Why do you hate that poor people who risk their lives crossing the border only to find a job? Jobs who many lazy americans do not take. Look around, how many people is out there who do not work at all. Tese lazy people beside of sucking taxpayer money, they do not produce anything(unlike illegals). So we need to start by requiring lazy americans to go and work before we worry about illegal aliens.

Third, Illegal aliens pay taxes. Some of they pay taxes like anyone else, but unlike you, they do not get earned income credit, Bush $600 credit, or any ss retirement benefit. Sometimes they go to emergency room, but because the employers do not offer them health insurance, no wonder why. Also, they need to eat and buy things, which pays 7% state tax. If you people do not want these poor people to have anything, why don't you say something about all that money they pay in income tax, social security, sales, etc? It seems that many law abiding(beside breaking immigration laws) illegal immigrants are paying for the bad ones, who do not pay anything. That is why they should legalize the good people, who come to work hard, pay taxes and abide to the law. And take out those who are criminals.

Finally, remember there is someone out there in heaven, who will judge you one day. Question? what is the second most important commandment accourding to Jesus? Answer: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39). Now, how is that what you wanna do helping your neighbors? because they are also your neighbors like it or not. That is mean, and it is sad to know you are the same people who go to church every sunday and hold a bible in your hands everyday. Who are you trying to cheat? You have a mean heart and that you cannot hide from God, I can assure you that. No matter how many times you pray or how many times you go to church. What kind of people wants to send their neighbor to a place where they have no future and will suffer due to poverty. Do you think God will reward you for that?

It is not the illegal aliens the ones causing these problems, they just want a better way of living. Do not blame them, blame the employers who hire them. Without employers willing to hire them, there would not be any illegals. Still, employers are going to blame lazy americans for their need to brake the law. Or perhaps china imports. I don't blame them either. So who's fault it is? Globalization? Well, maybe we should stop all imports and exports. That will fix the problem. But wait, without trade, we will be inneficient and become a poor country very fast. Trade is very important. So what do we do?????? That is something I cannot answer, a very complex problem. But mistreating these people I can assure you, IS NOT THE SOLUTION.

Mr. Brod, you asked:

"Margaret: Are you really suggesting that illegals come here to avoid work? I must say, that's an innovative concept."

No, Mr. Brod, I am suggesting that working illegals are not the only illegals in the US. They have with them non-working family that either came with them, came later or that were born here (I believe the term is "anchor babies"). They are NOT working, NOT paying any taxes of contributing in any way, yet they may well be also the heaviest users of "social services."

Are YOU really suggesting that every illegal immigrant in the US is "working" and paying his/her full share, Mr. Brod?

Margaret: Oh, you're talking about the families of illegal immigrants. Well, that's still silly, and here's why. Even if there were no illegal immigration, we in America would be saddled by a class of people who, in your words, "are NOT working, NOT paying any taxes." And they're heavy users of social services. In fact, there are entire state and county agencies devoted to these people. Who are these leaches? They're our children.

Of course, purely from an economic standpoint, we know that children eventually grow up and work and pay taxes. But studies show that the same is true for immigrants, legal and illegal, or in any case the next generation.

Besides, if the concern is that illegals are sending their earnings back to Mexico or wherever, then the fact that they have family here undoes that. They're not going to send much money home if they have a family to support here.

I'll say it again: You can argue for further restrictions on illegal immigration, better enforcement, etc., and be on solid footing if you stick to moral and legal reasons. Or you can talk about fairness ("my grandfather immigrated legally--why can't these people?"). But there's no intellectually honest way to include economics in your argument. When you net everything out, the current economic costs of immigration are small, and the future benefits are potentially (but not necessarily) large. You might not like that, but there it is.

So do us a favor and just say it: you don't like those people. And fair enough--you shouldn't have to like everyone.

One last bit of perspective from me. The original question was whether the community colleges' decision to ban illegals is the right policy. Many have argued the ethics on both sides. But even without this new policy, illegals had to pay out-of-state tuition, which made it impossible for most of them to attend CCs anyway. The CC presidents quoted in the news article said they had only a handful of people in this category, and one or two said zero. So the irony of this long discussion is that the latest CC decision will have almost no effect... other than generating a lot of discussion on this blog.

Mr. Brod: Your presumption ... "So do us a favor and just say it: you don't like those people" ... is false.

Just as if I were to say, "So do us a favor and just say it, Mr. Brod: You are for wide open borders with no limits."

Ridiculous, eh? Both YOUR presumptive statement and my hypothetical.

While the subject is still on the table, despite your effort to close the discussion, I wonder your thoughts on illegals who come to this country, NOT with an altruistic and noble work ethic in mind, willing to do what others won't, yada, yada, but with less lofty motivations. Let's say dealing drugs, or fleeing legal authorities in their native country.

Are these immigrants to be accorded taxpayer supplied services, too? Does this not qualify as an "honest economic" issue? After all, they are not really illegal immigrants, they're just "undocumented workers."

Political correctness certainly seems run amok in academia.

If it's politically correct to avoid emotionalism, scare tactics, and racism, and instead to focus on facts and research, then I guess you got me.

Racism, Mr. Brod? Pray, elucidate. Where did you detect racism? Did you just assume that anyone who is opposed to illegal immigration is a de facto racist. Or perhaps, it is simply a preconceived notion in your OWN mind, sir. Maybe you're having a hard time imagining illegals without seeing a race-tinged image in your mind's eye.

Certainly, no one here has mentioned race, other than you, have they? Illegal immigrants may come from any race, any nation and in almost every conceivable size, shape and form. In fact, they may look very much like you, me, or anyone else you see walking down the street. From England, Sweden, Lithuania, or Argentina. It seems quite odd, but apparently it is you who thinks it to be a race issue. How politically incorrect!

Maybe john and Andrew B. are illegals themselves as they are really on the bandwagon with this stuff and their support for all of us to embrace the illegals and their activity in this country. Come one, come all and get your share of the American Dream. It doesn't matter that you came here illegally, we will take care of you and your children and give you more than we give some of our citizens who were born here. You guys need a reality check! It's people like you who really need to see the light.