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Power to the people!

To be honest with you, I believe that the vaules of marital views have become corrupt by the "people" and "the courts." Same-sex marriages are in direct violation to the will of God. He didn't initiate marriage that way. The book of Dueteronomy has more insight. It's saddens me to know that there are couples out there living this lifestyle, I just can't fathom it, when God ordained marriage to be HOLY between a man and a woman.

Interesting question. And I'll ask you one...what would have happened to the civil rights movement and equality for African-Americans had the "people" decided issues of equality?

The same applies for gay and lesbian people.

The issue is not whether gay and lesbian relationships are contrary to the Bible, that is open to interpretation. There are many people who believe God spoke more about taking care of the poor, equality, etc. than about homosexuality.

The point is that our Country is not governed by fundamentalists as in Iran. Our Country is goverened by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

By the way, I remember my grandpa "using" the Bible to justify racial discrimination as did many fundmamentalists in the past (and sadly in the present as well). The verses they used seemed as solid as those used by some Christians today to denounce homosexual people. You know, the whole God cursed Cain and made him black, Paul affirmed slavery stuff, etc.

The Bible also says more about divorce than homosexuality. So when are fundamentalists going to try to pass amendments to our constitution banning divorce?

Let the people decide.

The Civil Rights bill was decided by the people. There is law does not distinguish between straight and gay. You are suggesting that Gays be given unique treatment, above others.

Craig, your response was interesting and got me thinking so I'm going to reply to a few things in your post:

"The issue is not whether gay and lesbian relationships are contrary to the Bible, that is open to interpretation. There are many people who believe God spoke more about taking care of the poor, equality, etc. than about homosexuality."

According to Romans 1:18-32, homosexuality is a result of people's rejection of God. I'm not going to qoute the whole passage, but read it and it is clear that homosexuality is God giving people over to their own lusts and perverse desires as a result of their rejection of him. Therefore, if you believe the Bible, it is not open for interpretation as this is a clear passage to understand. God did speak abundantely about taking care of the poor, being humble, etc. because these are important aspects of a believers life in becoming more Christ-like. Sexual immorality is one of many "fruits" of unbelief. I think God was more interested in transforming our lives into becoming what He wanted His people to be instead of constantly condemning those outside of the body of Christ, for those are already receiving judgement in seperation from God.

"The Bible also says more about divorce than homosexuality. So when are fundamentalists going to try to pass amendments to our constitution banning divorce?"

Marriage is important in God's eyes because according to Ephesians 5, it is symoblic of the relationship between Christ and His Church. As Christ does not break his covenant with his church, so Christians should not break their marriage covenant with their spouse.

A true Christian will not judge those outside of the Body of Christ...1 Corinthians 5:13 "But those who are outside, God judges." And according to Romans 1, this is what he is currently doing to those that have rejected him.

Wow Brain, I know lots of gay men and women who love Jesus and who, like you, consider the Bible to be the word of God. So, how have these folks rejected God? Even those in ex-gay ministries would disagree with your assessment. What you seem to be saying is that God makes a person gay because of the person's rejection of God. So, does that mean God makes them practicing homosexuals or just that they are homosexuals? Ex-gay groups really don't claim that a gay person has to "change" to be a Christian, just that they don't practice. So, what you say totally contradicts what they are saying. Ex-gay groups say that a person is never really "ex-gay", just that they don't act on their orientation.

And Christspeak, you might want to give the Human Rights Campaign a call and straighten them out. They contend that gay people don't have the same rights as heterosexuals and do a fairly decent job of documenting that fact. Thier website is www.hrc.org. They also have a toll free number for you to call and discus the issue...1-800-777-4723.

And for all of you...you can believe whatever you wish. That is the wonderful thing about America...freedom of speech. But the original question was about the issue being decided by the courts or by the people. Certainly christspeak, you are not saying that the Southern people decided that African-Americans have equal rights and should be integrated into our schools. Is that what I am reading? I'd love to know how old you are and if you lived through the civil rights era. If you had, you certainly wouldn't make such a claim.

Even though Nancy's question was about the courts vs. a vote of the people, posters have seen this as an opening to once again focus on THE sin of the extreme right. Forget about the other sins, like not taking care of the poor. THIS sin is the biggest of all...the worst...the most incredible...the most...yadda yadda yadda.

Anyway, a famous quote says: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” —Luke 6:41-42

If you are gay or lesbian and reading this, know that God loves you. Know that there are many churches in the Triad which welcome you and will not judge you based on your orientation. Most of the churches, surprisingly enough, are evangelical.

Having rambled on. This is not the place to discus important issues like what God thinks about homosexuality. A face to face meeting, talking with each other in a calm manner and being able to deeply listen to one another is what is needed. If anyone would like to discuss the issue further, email me and we can get together.

God's Peace

One more thing. There is a wonderful website for gay Christians:

http://www.gaychristian.net/

Check it out!

Craig, I was in no way judging homosexuals. I feel like we are all sinners and, therefore, everyone needs a Savior and the only Savior is Jesus. I was merely pointing out a passage in the Bible, a passage that I feel is quite clear. Without this spiraling too far out of control, please give me your interpretation of Romans 1:18-32. Approach this passage as objectively as you possibly can and give me your honest interpretation.

Craig, the US Congress passed the civil rights bill, not a federal judge.

I beleive people who engage in homosexual sex can be beleivers in Christ. They are welcome to most churches I know of.

Brian,

As you know, this issue is THE issue which is dividing churches today. A group has been formed for respectful dialog for folks on both sides to talk about the issue(s). It is a wonderful organization which attempts to represent both sides in a fair way. I would suggest anyone interested in (respectfully) discussing this issue to join in at:

http://www.bridges-across.org/

I could do an exegisis of Romans 1 but that would not convince you that gay people can be and are Christians. Suffice it to say, that this passage has been THE clobber passage for Christians who condemn gay people. Interestingly enough, most of these same people would not say that a person cannot be gay and Christian, just that they cannot engage in homosexual acts and be a Christian. But the passage seems to say that gay people CANNOT be Christian. Some have said that there are no "gay people", only people who engage in homosexual acts. People are straight by nature and the deviate to act upon perverse "lifestyles". Even evangelical leaders who work with homosexuals no longer feel this way. Even the recent ex-gay conference sponsered by Exodus International (the largest "ex-gay" ministry in the world) reinforced this viewpoint.

Brian, I am not God. I certainly don't have all the answers. Perhaps Romans 1 stands on its on and you are right. It just seems odd to me that many of the gay people I know deeply love the Lord. It also is odd to me that Christians have focused so much energy on this "sin" and little or no energy on other issues which are spoken about even moreso in Scripture. It is easier to point to someone else's "sin" and not take a good hard look at one's own life to see that might be seperating them from God. Hey, I do this as well, so I'm pointing at myself too.

Anyway, if you'd like to get together to discus this further, email me. Let's talk!

I couldn't agree more that everyone should do more self examination and less condemnation. After all, it is God who convicts one of sin and certainly not another person. God bless

Christspeak,

You are correct. I thought you were saying that it went to a direct vote of the people. Had it done so, I have do doubt that it would not have passed.

Also, there was a great report on NPR about this very thing a couple weeks back. LBJ knew that if the Civil Rights Bill passed it would be the beginning of the Democrats losing their solid Southern base. Many Southern Democrats changed parties at that time. More Southern Democrats spent much energy on getting around the law as could be witnessed by the violence that occured due to integration.

Still today, there are many folks who think the Civil Rights Act of 1957 wasn't needed.

This is a legal issue not religious. God made people as individuals and they are complete. God speaks to me each morning in prayer and through my minister he also provides guidance. I grateful God placed me in a church devoted to community service, mission work, acceptance instead of tolerance (still judging at the tolerance stage) and letting Christ be seen in my face, your face, other faces and yes even in their faces. What about two people, same sex, getting married lessen the value of your marriage? Are your beliefs at stake by allowing other citizens, who my not even be Christian, to get married. Are Muslim marriage legal in this country since they don't believe in Jesus? Let people be. If you stop tell a child he's bad he my end up being good.